Drug info - new perspectives on coca "chewing", alternative coca administration methods

[Benga]

Traditional Coca chewing is an ancient cultural practice, formalised, and deeply rooted in Andean culture and symbolism.
Yet let's face it, beyond the tradition, using coca leaves is rather enjoyable , it provides a nice mental and physical stimulation with virtually no side-effects, not to mention vitamins and nutrients...

Traditionnal use is : take whole leaves, form a a quid ( quintu), place in mouth between cheek and gum, add a basifying agent ( usually quinoa ashes) to extract alkaloids into the saliva, keep in mouth, spit at first then eventually swallow and remember to thank the Pachama.

Leaves...Teabags ? yes crushed coca leave teabags are available. Up came the westernized version described by Murple : put teabag in mouth, add basifying agent, keep saliva while you feel the numbing, enjoy the light stimulation.
Yet there's more to it. Traditional basifying agents burn, and well not that easy to get : quinoa ashes, yes, but how do you prepare the illipta ? But other options exist, the most obvious being sodium bicarbonate, ie baking soda. It's also used in south american cities where it is called "bico". Works, and not as bad for your mouth and gums. Another option ? from the betel culture, limestone paste, which you can find in asian supermarkets, but it also burns... Sodium bicarb. works and is less dangerous to dose, just get used to the salty taste.

But using crushed leaves opens up a new dimmension : coca leaves are bulky, very bulky. So the amount of a traditional is way smaller than what you can accomodate in your mouth with a little research. we're talking over 10gms of dried coca, no sweat. how, well, prepare a quid, placing the powder and bicarb in a vessel : gauze (not great, expensive), coffee filter ( bulky)...teabags work, so just buy large teapot teabags ! place the leaves and bicarb and you're off...
but this is not very nice in the mouth, and takes a while to take effect...we're talking 45 minutes with a fat lump of teabag in your mouth not great.
First idea : speed up the process by wetting the teabag before use : just get the leaves moist, and buccal extraction will be accelerated.

Second : prepare a solution ! Water and bicarb, to a pH of 9 which is ideal for extraction. Dunk the teabag in, then place in your mouth and add just a little of the solution, your saliva will do the rest. don't chew but work it, press the juice out of the bag.

Third ? why not try to get rid of the teabag in the mouth altogether. This can be done by preparing in advance. Make you water and bicarb solution. place the teabag inside a glass, or even the ground leaves and cover with solution, then let sit, sift, press, work the paste, the longer and more work the better ( can be left over night). eventually add a little drinking alcohol for taste to your brew, but keep the liquid minimal.
when you're ready and willing, just sip up the salty liquid in your mouth, and let it sit. You'll notice the familiar numbness in no time, and saved yourself the 45 minutes of teabag chewing.... no more salad teeth, and less mouth damage.
just a few ideas on going beyond tradition, without crossing the line with pure alkaloid extraction...

b

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Cool - new drinks to try :-)

[genaro]

here's my own reciepe:

crush 10g (some might want to use more, such as 20-30g) dried coca leaves into a very fine powder. Poor 250mL boiling water over these (if you want a slightly alcoholic drink just use 200mL water and 50mL vodka but I think it would probably taste better with water only) and then add 50mL lemon juice to the mix. Let sit for 24 hours, shaking vigorously quite often. Filter through a piece of cloath, pressing/squeezing well to recover all the juice. Filter again through a cofee filter (without pressing/squeezing this time). Heat the mix on low heat and once it's hot (but not boiling) place two (or even three) teabags in it for 10 minutes, stirring regularly. Then remove the teabags and place the liquid in a small bottle (33-35cL) and add LOTS of sugar in it (until it tastes ok for u), possibly a little honey too. Shake well for 5 minutes. You now have a delicious energy drink for a nice evening (tastes just great and provide quite some energy).
You can drink the whole 33cL bottle all at once without risks (which you probably will as the taste is wonderful), of course if you want your drink to last the all night, just do the same thing but with a 1L bottle, multiplicating every proportions by 3 (30-100g coca, 9teabags....) but then you shouldn't drink it too fast as there will be more cocaine in it.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	thanks for sharing your technique
	Cool - new drinks to try :-)

[Benga]

Aaaah, coca drinks !


here's a couple of recipe to share (favouring lovely toxic cocaethylene for a more euphoric drink) :

the tonic hot wine :

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...ght=tonic+wine

Coca liquor :

a more complex but more efficient way to make a coca drink is to make coca liquor :
prepare a pH 9 water solution with sodium bicarbonate, and pour enough to just cover the leaves / leaf powder.
Add the strongest drinking alcohol you have to the solution. Let sit for a week or more, stirring/ working the paste whenever you can. Resulting liquid will be undrinkeable, foul, but the alkaloids will have recipitated into the alcohol. What you need to do is extract the alcohol out of the water / leaf / sodium bicarb / alcohol stew.

key is distillation : distillate, with a pot still if you don't have distillation material, it works fine : pour the liquid into a tall pot, float a bowl in the middle of the liquid ( it will get hot and reflux but that's not detrimental), cover the pot with a wok, fill the wok with cold water and ice and heat gently. Alcohol rises, hits the cold metal wok, condenses, drips into the collecting bowl.
distillate all the alcohol out of the liquid, leaving as little tails as possible ( non alcoholic liquid) since this is the undrinkeable water / sodium bicarb / leaf stew with a fould taste.

Take a sip of the clear alcohol collected in the bowl, if your mouth goes numb, no reason it shouldn't if worked / macerated the paste long enough at the right pH, you're there : Coca liquor.
add whatever you need for taste (distillated alcohol won't have much taste).

Coca drinks are pretty fascinating, I wish there was a way to dig up info on the ratios and processes involved in the famous Vin Mariani of yore...the internet is silent, but there must be a pattern pending somewhere...It was apparently also based on maceration and distillation of leaves, but it's hard to see how it could have been so effective without addition of extracted Hcl...
b

[Benga]

Originally Posted by genaro

here's my own reciepe:

crush 10g (some might want to use more, such as 20-30g) dried coca leaves into a very fine powder. Poor 250mL boiling water over these (if you want a slightly alcoholic drink just use 200mL water and 50mL vodka but I think it would probably taste better with water only) and then add 50mL lemon juice to the mix. Let sit for 24 hours, shaking vigorously quite often.it.

Genaro, on the recipe you described above, I do have two comments / questions :

absorption of the alkloids through drinking is weaker as a lot of the alkaloids are lost, whereas absorbtion through the mouth mucosa allows more to get into the bloodstream quicker. but coca drinks are fun too, especially with alcohol (yes, it's toxic, and bad for your body)

on preparation

boiling water is potentially detrimental to alkaloids, as most sources mention too much heat can cause them to breakdown. It would probably be wiser to use sub-boiling temperature hot water ISHO.

And why add lemon juice at the begining ?
Lemon juice increases the acidity of the liquid, and alkaloids are extracted in a basic medium, ideal pH being 9, ie quite basic... can't figure out how this could not hinder extraction, if anyone could explain I would appreciate it.
Nothing wrong with adding lemon juice for taste after the alkaloids have been extracted, but in the initial phase I don't get it.
If anything, one could add sodium bicarbonate ( which is foul and can cause stomach problems when drinking it, since the basic liquid will eventually mix with stomach acids...likely reaction being diarhea), or a lightly basic liquid like purple grape juice, not sure this would really do anything though.

is there any way extraction in an acid solution would work ?

thanks

b

[genaro]

In SWIM's experience, the tea SWIM made was effective, giving some strong stimulation (by ingestion)...now, if SWIY want SWIY can gargle each mouthful of liquid for 5-10min before swallowing it but SWIM's purpose was to get a very pleasant tasting drink, to be used in a simple/quick way (SWIM had planned to drink it slowly all over the night but SWIM drank the whole 33cL bottle within 5-10 minutes because SWIM was thirsty and it was tasting soo good that I couldn't keep any for later on)

about boiling water: note that SWIM didn't boil the leaves in water, SWIM pourred boiling water over these, so very little harm is done to alkaloids (just think many people do the same with shrooms while psilocybin is quite heat sensitive).

lemon juice was added both for the taste and for extracting the alcaloids as to SWIM's knowledge cocaine is much more soluable in water as a salt than as a base. I SWIM wrong about it? (SWIM always thought this was true for any alkaloid: always more soluable in acidic solution)

bicarbonate will definately ruin the taste of the drink to SWIM's opinion.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by genaro

In my experience, the tea I made was effective, giving some strong stimulation (by ingestion)...now, if you want you can gargle each mouthful of liquid for 5-10min before swallowing it but my purpose was to get a very pleasant tasting drink, to be used in a simple/quick way (I had planned to drink it slowly all over the night but I drank the whole 33cL bottle within 5-10 minutes because I was thirsty and it was tasting soo good that I couldn't keep any for later on)

about boiling water: note that I didn't boil the leaves in water, I pourred boiling water over these, so very little harm is done to alkaloids (just think many people do the same with shrooms while psilocybin is quite heat sensitive).

lemon juice was added both for the taste and for extracting the alcaloids as to my knowledge cocaine is much more soluable in water as a salt than as a base. Am I wrong? (I always thought this was true for any alkaloid: always more soluable in acidic solution)

bicarbonate will definately ruin the taste of the drink to my opinion.

I think you are wrong on the acidification, as all extraction procedures really focus on the need to make the solution basic ( ie the mixture of a little water and sodium carbonate with a non-polar in cocaine production, or the addition of a base in coca leaf chewing). I don't really see how adding acid in this stage could not be detrimental to the extraction.
wish someone could clear this up . SWIM thinks it is due to the acidic nature of coca alkaloids.

To be honest swim followed your procedure but while the drink tasted ok it had no numbing effect, much like coca tea, which is a sign of weak alkaloid presence, and swim felt no stimulation from it, as with most tea type drinks.
without using a base of sorts, swim finds that the only thing that works for him is long ( ie over one or two weeks minimum) maceration of leaves in wine.
the taste is modified upon drinking by adding hot wine sugar and spice, and is acceptable.

b
b

[billbryan]

Benga,what does it take to acquire a pH 9 soultion? How much bicarb / h2o?

Also what is SWIY's favorite brand of tea? SWIM has seen several brands and varietites, but has only tried HERBI- Mate de Coca. What is highest quality/strongest from SWIY's experience?


Also what do you gus think aboutmailing a box of tea to the US? I'm sure it is illegal, but what are te chances fof getting caught. If you did I;m sure you would just never see it or get a LL, NOT a knock on the door.

Thoughts?

[Benga]

Originally Posted by billbryan

Benga,what does it take to acquire a pH 9 soultion? How much bicarb / h2o?

Also what is SWIY's favorite brand of tea? SWIM has seen several brands and varietites, but has only tried HERBI- Mate de Coca. What is highest quality/strongest from SWIY's experience?


Thoughts?

Hi
SWIM hasn't measured out ratios for a sodium bicarb pH9 solution, as there seems to be variations so SWIM can only advise you to takes regular measurement with a pH meter. Maybe someone here has such ratios ?
As for the question on teas, I'm not sure if brand discussions are allowed, so SWIM won't go into that.
The brand you mentioned is indeed not that great, nor is the peruvian national ( produced by the ENACO) brand. However there are some *superior* quality teas out there if you look around, labeled as such, which are really better tasting and everything.

b

[Benga]

SWIM has recently aquired a monography on coca, it is number 53 of the Swiss publication "Revue Ciba" from 1946.
It is quite detailed and a very good read. SWIM thought it might interest some people here to hear about an alternative coca "chewing" technique which he had not heard about before.
It is a practice described by Th. Koch Grunberg in the lower plains of the amazon bassin, of the native populations of the Rio Tikie / Tiquie.

Fresh leaves are gently roasted in a pot on the fire, then ground to a very fine powder in a mortar. An alkaline, in this case ambauva leaf ashes are added to the powder, and the powder and alkali mix in kept in gourds.
The powder is used by just placing spoonfuls into the mouth, or inserting a straw and sucking the powder into the mouth. It apparently swallowed.
this is a quite different from the bolus/quid method, and is used extensively during parties where people dance and for travelling.

an interesting variation to whole leaf chewing, and probably worth looking into some more. Doubt that the roasting has any other justification than just allowing the leaves to be thoroughly ground though.

sorry for the rather vague title, I forgot some details I wanted to add


b

Reputation Comments on this post:

nice find

[AceOvArts]

Benga, Do you know of anyone that has tried this ? Has anyone else tried it.

[Benga]

yes, this works perfectly well with coca leave powder or ground leaves such as what is found in coca tea. two main downsides, he powder is a little abrasive, and will irritate cheek and mouth lining. The base ( baking soda) is also in direct contact with mucosa, which increases the irritation.
and secondly, you end up with a mouth full of green powder. not very sexy, and you have to be careful not to drool anywhere or you'll end up with a large green stain.
the powder spreads all around the mouth.
but apart from that it's very effective, and convenient as the mix is ready made.
just messy.

[kookoo4coca]

would one be able to then take the ground powder from the coca leaves and ambauva leaf mix (wondering if illipta can be substituted) and make this into crystals for insuffalation? SWIM is NOT a chem, knows nothing about chem, barely made it out of high school. just tryna find a (evap for big ass dummies) way to make this work for him as he likes to sniff. thanx

[Benga]

well people do insufflate finely ground up vegetable matter. It hurts and isn't very effective...but if it's a fetish, it can't hurt much more than kanna...
Crystals, no, unless you're crystallizing something like the cocaine, but this is something else. Think of crystallisation as an isolation, a form of final stage purification.

b

[kookoo4coca]

ooookkk, swim thinks he understands. he has some kanna extract 500mgs, he snorted and even though it wasn't so bad, the muddy drip was uncomfortable. that's why SWIm was wondering if the kanna extract he received (which is already a nice fine powder), when he makes it into a resin form, from the resin he extracts, would he then be able to take that resin and wash it until he got something purer and more refined to make it easier to insuffalate. thanx benga

ps swim has looked everywhere he could think of to find the answer to this question, even erowid. he can't find anything on basic kanna extraction (like 5th grade level, if you get my drift), or how to acid wash it to make it purer. sure, he's seen it for DMT, yopo, meth and ever other thing.. but nothing for kanna or kratom.

since i couldn't get anyone to answer that question, i've tried to extract on my own. i just copied the extraction method for another plant n hope like hell i properly understood the concept.

heres what i've gleaned: -take the extract and mix it with 100 proof alcohol.
shake and mix for about 5 mins

-place in a dark place for about 3 days
-remove particles by strainer through a coffee filter into a glass dish
-pour alcohol back into bottle shake it again and filter
-take liquid and place that in a dark place until it's dry and there's no odors emanating
-scrape particles and either smoke or use in tea.....

thats as much as i know, laymans, everyday terms. now how acid base wash it from there, i dunno, cause i can't find it anywhere. plus, i'm not too sure i'd want to use hydrocloric acid, would rather use organic or something that can be consumed, ya know? like instead of swim using acetone, he preferred to use the 100 proof smirnoff.

i'm trying, as you can see. is it possible that i get directed from here? thanx in advance

[pabel_giboon]

Firs of all, SWIM lives in a country where COCA LEAF is legal.
As much as a drughead, SWIM is an energy dependant. 16 to 20 hours working (on a drawing board) a day definitely asks for a help.
I found coca chewing the best of energizers, since it´s way better than energy drinks or vitamine pills (it doesn´t crack your stomack and it doesn´t make you fat, as a matter of fact coca chewing depleats appetite).
On and on SWIM has been thinking if there´s a way to make some sort of COCA CANDY, extracting alkaloids form the leves and then putting them into a pill you could melt under your tongue.
That would be great for a kick on a pub or in the office, where it´s not seen as a proper behaviour to chew coca.
On and on SWIM had been thinking of that, but coca chewing is a nice habit and requires the developement of a skill which SWIM is prowd of.
Still thinking if it would be worth sacrificing 200g coca leaf on a try. If someone joind SWIM on the project, with advice and ideas. Maybe SWIM would try it, even with a pictorial of it.

Oh by teh way, SWIM´s basifier of choice is baking soda. The sudden numbness on teh mouth is a lot faster and strong than anyother ash-made basifier. Ashes made basifiers are named "Yisca" and sodium bicarbonate is usually refered as "bica" -short for bicarbonate, in spanish: dicarbonato-

[Benga]

Originally Posted by pabel_giboon

Firs of all, SWIM lives in a country where COCA LEAF is legal.
As much as a drughead, SWIM is an energy dependant. 16 to 20 hours working (on a drawing board) a day definitely asks for a help.
I found coca chewing the best of energizers, since it´s way better than energy drinks or vitamine pills (it doesn´t crack your stomack and it doesn´t make you fat, as a matter of fact coca chewing depleats appetite).
On and on SWIM has been thinking if there´s a way to make some sort of COCA CANDY, extracting alkaloids form the leves and then putting them into a pill you could melt under your tongue.
That would be great for a kick on a pub or in the office, where it´s not seen as a proper behaviour to chew coca.
On and on SWIM had been thinking of that, but coca chewing is a nice habit and requires the developement of a skill which SWIM is prowd of.
Still thinking if it would be worth sacrificing 200g coca leaf on a try. If someone joind SWIM on the project, with advice and ideas. Maybe SWIM would try it, even with a pictorial of it.

Oh by teh way, SWIM´s basifier of choice is baking soda. The sudden numbness on teh mouth is a lot faster and strong than anyother ash-made basifier. Ashes made basifiers are named "Yisca" and sodium bicarbonate is usually refered as "bica" -short for bicarbonate, in spanish: dicarbonato-

SWIM definetly agrees with all of the above, especially about bica/bico... Not as bad for the teeth and mouth.
Coca extracts and wine were part of the western pharmacopea for some time, in the form of fluid extracts and the like. This would be a good start for such research, and swim has posted some original recipes here :

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...ighlight=codex

b

[pabel_giboon]

SWIM has been seing all your interesting post, benga. SWIM will be thinking on the best way to extract and press some coca tablets this week.

[pabel_giboon]

Take a look at these coca packs. This is the way they are sold in markets on the street. Of course, smaller packs can be bought. But serious chewers buy it bulk, fractionate it in 50 or 100g bags and keep them in the freezer.
Each bag weights 1/2 kilo. The bag is 30 x 50 cms. and it´s folded in 3. These are 2 bags.

[pabel_giboon]

Recently SWIM came up with the sad -and obious- fact that Sodium Bicarbonate contains sodium -he he he-. Swim consulted a doctor and he said this sodium is as harmfull for the hart as the sodium in salt. So now swim is on a crossroad, chewing teh nice way or keeping the heart safe. Would another basifier (something about calcium or something -sorry about my ignorance-) work as good as sodium bicarbonate and not be a hazard for the heart?

[Benga]

Originally Posted by pabel_giboon

Recently SWIM came up with the sad -and obious- fact that Sodium Bicarbonate contains sodium -he he he-. Swim consulted a doctor and he said this sodium is as harmfull for the hart as the sodium in salt. So now swim is on a crossroad, chewing teh nice way or keeping the heart safe. Would another basifier (something about calcium or something -sorry about my ignorance-) work as good as sodium bicarbonate and not be a hazard for the heart?

swim used limestone paste as a basifier before using sodium bicarbonate. It might be hard to find in some places, but it is sold in shops that cater to Indian / South East Asian communities, where it is used as a basifier for betel chewing. If you can find a shop that sells betel products ( pan, leaves, nuts...) they'll have some kind of edible limestone paste.

but it takes a lot of caution, as the paste, is put in direct contact with the mouth lining, will cause burns ( similar to those caused by hot cheese). It's a strong alkali and a ball half the size of a common pea is largely enough. Rub it into the leaves. betel chewing is not good for the mouth though, and it hasn't been determined how much is due to what aspect, but it could be potentially carcinogenic...yet it can be a good alternative, and once you get the hang of it, works really well. Just start low.

otherwise you can buy the traditional charcoal / ashes alkali, but they're somewhat nasty to swim.

On the sodium, i'll be checking up on that. The thing is, if you don't swallow the saliva that much, i'm not sure that much sodium actually enter the bloodstream through the mouth mucosa. very interesting though, and should be checked on.

b

[pabel_giboon]

If limestone is calcium carbonate, then it is not just less risky to use but could be even healthy as a calcium source. Worth a try, SWIM will check it out.

Update: Calcium Carbonate is sold as "sal de viena" in craft shopsin Buenos Aires. It´s a very fine powder. Seems to work fine, also it´s less salty to the mouth. Apparently works fine. SWIM will report how he get´s along with it in a week.

[novo]

Lots of interesting ideas shared here. SWIM has tried many ways of making the most of his tea sucking experiences, and now mostly, he finds it easiest to use dried limestone paste. When it is used as a paste, it was far too soluble, and was difficult to gage without burns to the mouth. When the paste is dried, it is harder and slow to release the alkali, resulting in a comfortable experience. What swim does is open the top of a tea bag and drop in some broken up bits of dried lime, probably less than half a pea size amount. Generally, the alkaloid is released fairly quickly after the coca is moistened enough, and you get a surge of flavor as your mouth salivates to further moisten the quid. After the flavor is gone, the teabag is removed.

As far as a lozenge goes, SWIM has made those with vodka extracted coca and chewy Werther's caramel. Here's what SWIM did. The teabags were emptied in a canning jar and covered with 100 proof vodka. A couple of chunks of dried limestone paste were added. A top was put on the jar loosely and the jar was submerged in a warm water bath on the stove for a number of hours. Beyond that, the jar was allowed to sit for another week, though that may have not been needed. The liquid was filtered through a silk, and squeezed to get as much liquid as possible. The leaf was re-covered with fresh vodka. The first extraction was evaporated in a double boiler with a warm water bath until most of the alcohol was removed. Next, the caramel is added and allowed to melt and is stirred together with the coca extract until thoroughly blended. The mixture is cooled until it can be collected and rolled into individual candy doses and wrapped back up in the wrappers. They are kept in the freezer until needed. The taste is quite good, though a bit "green". Your mouth gets numb, and there is some nice stimulation. SWIM thinks it would be better with a slower dissolving candy for more mouth absorbtion. The effect seems less when the stomach does the work.

Reputation Comments on this post:

thank you for sharing

[lala124]

Wow novo. Thats a pretty damn interesting idea. About how much caramel to coca did you use?

[novo]

SWIM used 50 teabags for 5 caramels. More could likely be made, especially with a second extraction. One more thought on the caramels, it's not a bad idea to microwave them for a few seconds to get them soft. There are candies and gum available from coca suppliers, but SWIM did not find them either tasty or effective.

[lala124]

Okay so then you just cut it into fifths after dissolving the caramel and further dry, then they are ready to use? I guess 10g would be an optimum dose...