Cross Tolerance With Party Pills And E?

[rikard]

SWIM is currently considering trying some party pills as he has heard from other frequent pill users that the effects can be very similar to mdma.

However i was wondering if any cross tolerance exists with mdma and piperazine blends? (BZP + TFMPP)

[a-SalviaLover]

well, there should be some form of cross tolerance, between the two, because they both act on dopamine and serotonin systems and exaust the supplies of them. To what degree and how exactly, only practise can tell you.

[radiometer]

Could you provide a reference for this supposed MDMA-related depletion of dopamine?

[a-SalviaLover]

If it heghtens the levels of a certain neurotasmitter (esp by using the monoamine transporters), this means that it dpletes it to a some degree. It might not be to a degree where you feel the depletion, but depletion surely exists.

[Richard_smoker]

I would have to agree that there will more than likely be a noticeable diminishing effect on the MDMA after variable amounts of exposure to the piperazine blends in question. I say this for several reasons, one of which is simply due to the body's normal response to repeated assault by true stimulants. "True" stimulants being those that either mimick normal neurotransmission or secondarily enhance the normal transmission of neurons by exciting the reticular activating system.

The reason I distinguish "true" stimulants* is because there are other compounds like anti-depressants which inhibit various re-uptake mechanisms (strattera, welbutrin, MAO-inhibitors, etc.) and this second category is a totally different ballgame, as most of us will attest.

But as far as BZP and TFMPP go, most will agree that these share subjective properties of other "true" stimulants--like ephedrine, amphetamines, PEAs, etc.

Because BZP/TFMPP's effects are relatively immediate, short-lasting (again, relatively short-acting! I know many will disagree!) and stimulatory in nature, they are bound to deplete, disorganize, and disrupt the body's natural homeostasis with regard to both energy levels and mood. This is essentially a LAW of nature/pharmacology/psychology/human nature that I call "paying the piper." You can't expect something to make you feel UP without feeling DOWN when the drug wears off. So, in regard to the RAS/Nor-Epinephrine system (aka SPEED), you will almost certainly develop tolerance that will be cross-tolerant in nature.

To the extent that the piperazines will effect the mood-altering effect of MDMA, I cannot say for certain. I would expect that tolerance to BZP will detract from the amphetamine-character of MDMA, but not necessarily from the mood-elevation typical of ecstacy. The term here evades me--entactogen, empathogen...? whatever it's called--I'm referring specifically to the portion of the MDMA experience most likely brought on by an acute serotonin dump.
However, looking at lab-rat data, this point could be argued both ways. Based upon mice experiences, the TFMPP will cause a serotonin shift similar to that of MDMA. There is no reason to believe that this won't negatively effect the subjective feeling of MDMA.

Nevertheless, it will be a total crapshoot, and if I were given the choice, I would probably steer away from the piperazines in favor of one good experience of MDMA... but that's assuming that your question is based upon a reliable source for ecstacy. For this reason (being a crapshoot), any knowledge gained about this experience in actual human beings should be posted HERE! After all, that is exactly the purpose of this board!!!

If SWIY does NOT have access to the MDMA, then SWIY probably should not worry about the possible effect on future consumption of MDMA. AFAIK, the serotonergic effects of the BZP/TFMPP combo do not institute permanent changes in the brains of users. Also, AFAIK, those changes are not even necessarily known to be caused by the same mechanism by which people become "battle-hardened" to the effects of MDMA anyways...

Personally, I would not worry that taking piperazines will somehow take the 'sparkle' away from ecstacy in the same manner in which ecstacy-use ITSELF will take away E's 'sparkle.'

MDMA is a very unique drug. It is my understanding that no one knows for certain how or why MDMA use leads to decreased euphoria (entactogen/empathogen/whatever...) with repeated use.

Again, others will disagree with me, but I also believe that BZP is a very unique drug as well. It seems to be quite similar to the stimulant qualities of methcathinone, although I cannot say for certain because I DO NOT USE DRUGS! However, from what I've read, both drugs are stimulants that are unlike dexadrine or meth. They are more fun. They are giddy, and if you enjoy them, then you will probably enjoy the funny, slanted, humorous high that both drugs reportedly cause.

Unless SWIY is planning on taking the piperazines once or several times immediately prior to taking MDMA, then I would not worry about its future effects on the MDMA experience. However, if SWIY plans to take the piperazines tonight, tomorrow night, and then take E the following night, then I would have to advise against this as the E experience will almost certainly be adversely affected. After all, if the MDMA/serotonin-theory is true, then you will be wasting your E because of the recent hit on your serotonin reserves.


*actually, I just made up that term--sorry! If someone has a better term than "true" then please give it to me and I'll edit this post! -Dick

Reputation Comments on this post:

well fucking put

[DJ-666]

Right, it isnt recommended to mix bzp/a2 or mCPP with any form of some mdma,mda or derivates. Near death-experiences and deaths of people who mixed (also when it was only at larger doses!) are reported on erowid till now.

[Euphoric]

SWIM was under the impression that BZP products do not actually deplete serotonin and dopamine, but do something like make the receptors more sensitive... said info was found on a website selling the products though... Is it a blatant lie? If so, can anyone suggest whether BZP depletes these things more or less than E? And in general, which will wreak more havoc on ones body?

[WrtngCocaineTutorial]

Originally Posted by rikard

SWIM is currently considering trying some party pills as he has heard from other frequent pill users that the effects can be very similar to mdma.

However i was wondering if any cross tolerance exists with mdma and piperazine blends? (BZP + TFMPP)

mdma does not give cross tolerance to mda, so I doubt it..

although mdma and mda are both work on serotonin receptors
LSD is also a "serotonin drug"

[Euphoric]

If someone has answers for the questions I posted above this one, that would be helpful. I'm also wondering, if mescaline and E may perhaps have a cross tolerance as I understand they are chemically similar. Does mescaline cause the serotonin dump too?

[Each Hit]

taken from mescaline.com:

The characteristic behavioral effects of mescaline in cats were nearly completely blocked by pretreatment with low doses of either a specific serotonin antagonist (methysergide) or a dopamine specific antagonist (haloperidol). These blocking effects were not due to non-specific actions, since methysergide did not block the behavioral effects of apomorphine, and haloperidol did not block the behavioral effects of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. Thus, it appears that the behavioral effects of mescaline are dependent upon the simultaneous action of the drug at both serotonin and dopamine receptors.

i'm no neurochemist or anything close, but if mescaline acts on serotonin receptors, would that not limit the number or receptors left to act on the serotonin released by mdma?? i would think this would lead to extended length of mdma duration or possibly serotonin syndrome.

note: this is just speculation judging by the affects these chemicals have. an experienced user would be a better advisor.

[Nagognog2]

No. MDMA does not have a cross-tolerance with mescaline with MDMA. They work in very different ways. I've never seen a study on piperazines and MDMA, but my likely-correct guess is they do not. If one finds out they are - post it.

[Forthesevenlakes]

Originally Posted by Each Hit

but if mescaline acts on serotonin receptors, would that not limit the number or receptors left to act on the serotonin released by mdma??

just a guess, but mescaline and MDMA probably act on different serotonin receptor subtypes. not all serotonin receptors are the same. the ones mescaline bind to probably are not the same as those MDMA binds to, so they shouldnt exhibit cross-tolerance or even preclude one or the other binding when both are co-administered.

[Each Hit]

thank you. i was unsure, so your information has been helpful.

[Euphoric]

Just thought I'd let it be known that SWIM knows some monkeys (3) who are/were heavy into E and had pleasant experiences with BZP, despite frequent E use. Frequent meaning atleast monthly, often twice a month, and sometimes in binges lasting 2-3 days.
I am still not clear on whether or not BZP actually depletes serotonin or just makes the receptors hyper-sensitive. Someone care to clarify? Thanks