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  #1  
Old 04-12-2011, 23:40
Priapism9 Priapism9 is offline
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Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

People claim that Dopamine precursors like L-Tyrosene are good to take in between Adderall doses to help "replenish dopamine", get things back to normal, and reduce any tolerance you may have developed.

I don't understand this logic.

Technically when you use Adderall, its the abundance of dopamine that causes the receptors to "burn out". The result of extra dopamine also causes the number of receptors to decrease. This is why the same dose after awhile does not give the same effect.

So exactly why would taking something that increases dopamine afterwards, help? It is the *absence* of dopamine that causes the body to trigger growth of new receptors, thereby reducing tolerance.

Taking a dopamine precursor just keeps the dopamine levels up. Don't you want them depleted for a period of time, instead?
  #2  
Old 05-12-2011, 18:53
simmerman simmerman is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Well see what these supplements do is they increase the dopamine faster. Than if you were to not take anything. The drugs that effect the dopamine. Flood the brain with it. meaning they open up the axils and release dopamine throught-out that specific portion of the brain thats what causes euphoria. Its the pleasure center and the pleasure neurotransmitter which is dopamine that gets released. See there are 3 different specific dopamine binding sites. The illegal drugs. Act on the Dat or D2 receptors specifically which act on the sympathetic nervous system to cause the physical and emotional effects. Now because your brain gets flooded with this dopamine. After a while you need more drugs to release more dopamine. And eventually amphetamine type drugs are the only type of drugs. that can leave your brain permenantly altered to where it can not replenish itself naturally. These supplements help increase the neurons by reactivating them to restore your dopamine back to normal level's where they use to be, before the drugs. You can take 10000 pills and not feel high because they do not work on the same receptors. But like you said. whats the point in taking more to increase it. Well if your any type of stimulant user. you would know that amphetamine withdraw is pure hell. i mean once you run out. you dont have any energy to want to do anything. i mean you can use it and sleep and eat everynight and take it as prescribed. but its still known to cause tiredness, depression, no motivation, sleeping for 2 or 3 day's its terrible. Not physically but psychologically. Because your brain is saying i need more dopamine to feel good again. So you could tough it out and just let your brain produce it back up at its own rate and sit and wallow in your misery for days or weeks, or you can take a supplement to help lesson the withdrawl effects. and shorten the duration. So what would you chose well anyone who does drugs does them to feel good. So ofcourse we would chose the quickest recovery so we feel better as soon as possible. But at the same time. if you take the l-tyrosine while your doing the amps. It will lesson the crash effects and produce less damage to the dopamine transporters. Sorry for rambling this is my first post. I just wrote a report on adderall. I been up all night and im on like 250mgs. Yeah i have a huge tolerance. I know all the in's and outs about the amps. I been researching them for years. questions just holla
  #3  
Old 06-12-2011, 00:49
Priapism9 Priapism9 is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmerman View Post
These supplements help increase the neurons by reactivating them to restore your dopamine back to normal level's where they use to be, before the drugs.
Okay but the thing which reduces tolerance is the RE-CREATION OF RECEPTORS. Recreation of receptors DOES NOT HAPPEN when there is an abundance of dopamine still hanging around. Its the ABSENCE of dopamine which triggers the brain to create more receptors. Its the ABUNDANCE of dopamine which triggers the brain to decrease the # of receptors (tolerance, lack of effectiveness etc). To reduce tolerance, and changes to the brain, one must have LESS DOPAMINE in their system.

So taking Dopamine precursors doesn't help get you back to normal. It only makes you feel maybe less of the symptoms. It is the *absence* of dopamine that is needed for a period of time, so that the brain creates more receptors and restores things.

Quote:
So you could tough it out and just let your brain produce it back up at its own rate and sit and wallow in your misery for days or weeks, or you can take a supplement to help lesson the withdrawl effects. and shorten the duration.
Okay but as long as its clear that doing this only prolongs your recovery. I think its very important for people to realize that taking dopamine precursors is only treating things "symptomatically". Its reducing your "hangover". It is absolutely not helping your brain heal. At all. And this is the big misconception.

A lot of people have this misconception about Ecstasy and taking 5HTP. Everyone rattles off that if you take 5HTP after you roll, you'll get yourself back to normal faster. Totally wrong. Youre actually inhibiting your brain from restoring your receptors. Same with dopamine precursors and adderall.

-P-

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I've always wondered about this logic myself, thank you for bringing this up.
Informative, well-written post

Last edited by Priapism9; 06-12-2011 at 01:02.
  #4  
Old 06-12-2011, 09:02
simmerman simmerman is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

So the best thing to do than would be to take a supplement that depletes the levels even more than the amphetamines so when you do take them its so depleted they have no choice but to increase it? I mean your dopamine can only reach a depletion level so low that it causes toxicty in the brain. So the best way to get a high out of any type of dopamine stimulating drugs. would be to go on like a 3 week binge to wear you deplete almost every neuron in their. Than go through the withdrawl's self naturally which would be probably horrendous givin the circumstances. Just to get high Again after a month. That sounds like a very miserable cycle. And it maybe true that its the best form of getting high over all. But i think the majoritiy of us will take the mild euphoria daily or weekly and deal with mild withdrawl through supplementation. Than to go all out for an extrememe rush. And crash for weeks. But to each their own.
  #5  
Old 06-12-2011, 09:18
xoxi xoxi is offline
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I agree with op!

But.. People take dopamine precursors to alleviate symptoms and not to reduce tolerance.



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  #6  
Old 07-12-2011, 03:21
Priapism9 Priapism9 is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
So the best thing to do than would be to take a supplement that depletes the levels even more than the amphetamines so when you do take them its so depleted they have no choice but to increase it
Well that doesn't make much sense. Why make it worse than necessary? How about just do nothing and let your brain do its job?

Keep in mind: There are a thousand different scenarios for taking Adderall and they're not all the same. You are talking about getting "high". Others take it for studying. I take it once a week to keep me from getting tired when I drink. I only take 5mg of the XR when I go out. So I am referring here to people who take it periodically and want to restore their sensitivity and receptors inbetween. Many people told me to take Tyrosene to "speed up that process". Its incorrect. Tyrosene might help people who are crashing hard. It does not speed up the process of recovery at all. It prolongs it. Same goes for 5HTP in my opinion with Ecstasy. It doesn't protect or aid in recovery. It slows down recovery and can actually cause serotonin syndrome by continuing the flood of serotonin.
  #7  
Old 07-12-2011, 17:52
simmerman simmerman is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Cocaine and amphetamines inhibit the re-uptake of dopamine; however, they influence separate mechanisms of action. Cocaine is a dopamine transporter and norepinephrine transporter blocker that competitively inhibits dopamine uptake to increase the lifetime of dopamine and augments an overabundance of dopamine (an increase of up to 150 percent) within the parameters of the dopamine neurotransmitters. Like cocaine, amphetamines increase the concentration of dopamine in the synaptic gap, but by a different mechanism. Amphetamines and methamphetamine are similar in structure to dopamine, and so can enter the terminal bouton of the presynaptic neuron via its dopamine transporters as well as by diffusing through the neural membrane directly.[citation needed] By entering the presynaptic neuron, amphetamines force dopamine molecules out of their storage vesicles and expel them into the synaptic gap by making the dopamine transporters work in reverse. Tyrosine is usually a non-essential amino acid. All the amino acid helps to regulate disposition and it stimulates the nervous system. Conditions that have a debilitating fatigue section can also be treated with tyrosine. Tyrosine has a selection of functions.
Tyrosine creates important human brain chemicals this regulate passion, pain tact, and the body's reaction to tension. It helps to assist you to normalize that functions of this thyroid, pituitary, and also adrenal glands. This may help to ease sensitivity to be able to pain.
A few symptoms of tyrosine insufficiency could be an under active thyroid, low blood pressure level, chronic lethargy and slow down metabolism. The human body cannot help to make its own tyrosine of which this may lead to various mental symptoms, anxiety, depressive disorders, and low libido.
Tyrosine is used to treat allergy symptoms. It is also would once treat hassles and Parkinson's. That further can often treat prescription drug withdrawal plus depression.
Quite a few food solutions where tyrosine can be found are in walnuts. It is also seen in avocados, and apples. Dairy products, pinto and black beans, and plant seeds also are solutions for tyrosine.
On the whole, we believe this specific amino acid to be very good to your health; men and women that consume the amino acid, often sense improved energy and energy.

simmerman added 15 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Now your telling me l-tyrosine has no benefit? Come on now this is documented scientific research i just gave you i can go on for day's. Cocaine. Causes depletion of dopamine while mdma causes depletion of serotonin. Now the amphetamines like i told you. earlier. Do not deplete the level's like you claim i said they work on a different dopamine transporter. the dat 1 neurons. That is why out of all illegal including now prescription amphetamines.They are the worst on the brain. Because they make the neuron's work in reverse therefore permanantly destroying the neuron's and once they are destroyed their is no way for them to become repaired. So even at your therapeutic level's it has been shown that adderall causes neuro toxicity in the brain. so your one little dose of 5mg's or what ever is causing permanant alterations in your brain that your body can not fix on its own or with medications. Where as from other drugs. over time your dopamine and serotonin level's will regenerate and increase on there own. Your neurons can not be remade once they are shot. So the only thing the l-tyrosine does. is helps your brain while your on the adderall or off of it prevent function like its suppose to but while the neurons are flooding the brain with the dopamine. The l-tyrosine inhibits the neurons from shutting down because of its effect on the dat 2 receptors and nor-epinephrine it sends the neurons to a stablized state while your on the medicine or drugs and while your off. So either way you look at it there is no getting around the fact your going to be damaging your brain. So if that's the case. im going to try to put a bandage on my wound as long as i can so as not to bleed to death in such quick a time. You may choose to leave the wound untouched. Therefore your toxicity will occur at a much faster rate. Than say mine. Ill stick with my plan.

Last edited by simmerman; 07-12-2011 at 17:52. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 08-12-2011, 18:57
Tech House Tech House is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

One cautionary note about taking l-tyrosine to help with withdrawal from stimulants and dopaminergic drugs: these drugs usually raise blood pressure and so does tyrosine. If one is having some kind of anxiety attack or has hypertension then it would be wise to let the drug wash out a bit before ingesting tyrosine. Taking the two together can be risky.

My neighbor once fertilized a tree with a combo of mdma and tyrosine, and the tree was shaking like crazy; its leaves were almost bursting from the pressure in their veins. How she got fertilizer confused with those other substances remains a mystery which can only be solved by her sinister gerbil.
  #9  
Old 04-01-2012, 19:38
Priapism9 Priapism9 is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmerman View Post
Now your telling me l-tyrosine has no benefit?
Um .... listing a bunch of health benefits of Tyrosine doesn't have anything to do with this thread. This thread is about restoring your brain receptors after Adderall use. Nothing in that list of health benefits said anything about Tyrosine increasing receptors and sensitivity to amphetamines. So you are way off topic. And the answer remains: No. Tyrosine doesn't "HELP" restore sensitivity to amphetamines and heal your brain to its original state.

Then I read the rest of your post and it also has nothing to do with this discussion.

The bottom line: Tyrosine is good for alleviating depression symptoms after discontinuation of Adderall use. It absolutely does NOTHING to shorten brain recovery time. In fact it slows it down and discourages the brain from repairing itself. Period.

Daily application of this information:

1) If you dont suffer from debilitating depression after Adderall use, and want to restore your sensitivity to its effects - avoid Tyrosine. With MDMA - avoid 5HTP.
2) If you suffer debilitating depression after discontinuing Adderall, consider Tyrosine to help with the symptoms. With MDMA - take 5HTP.

There really is nothing else to say.

-P-
  #10  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:15
Tech House Tech House is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priapism9 View Post
The bottom line: Tyrosine is good for alleviating depression symptoms after discontinuation of Adderall use. It absolutely does NOTHING to shorten brain recovery time. In fact it slows it down and discourages the brain from repairing itself. Period.
I've been taking l-tyrosine every morning for a couple years as an anti-depressant and it's very effective for me. I can see where it would be especially useful for people who use stims, between their binges, but it really is good for many people who are able to turn it into what might be a bit low in their brains for whatever reason.

But I'm mostly interested in the claim that tyrosine discourages the brain from repairing itself. Where did you get that info? It's a fairly strong claim to make, and isn't something you can conclude just by using deductive reasoning. There are a lot of counter-intuitive responses and processes in the brain, such as the effect of tiny doses of MDMA (it can actually stimulate new neuronal growth and connections, nootropic properties that are the opposite of what it does in higher doses.)

The OP's reasoning is similarly subject to these complex reactions in the brain. The argument is overly simplistic; there is no way to figure this out by merely using logic, it has to be discovered by science, and even then the science often changes as new discoveries bury old ideas. I doubt that the finest minds in biochemistry and neurophysiology are being utilized to figure out how over-the-counter supplements may be of benefit to recreational drug users as a means of helping them get high more frequently while minimizing brain damage. But I could be wrong!
  #11  
Old 05-01-2012, 11:06
addersloth addersloth is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

What seems to make sense to me is that the brain would start repairing receptors when it notices that less dopamine is being absorbed. Regardless of the amount of dopamine in the brain, if there arent receptors to absorb it, it wont do anything. This will tell the brain to start making/repairing receptors again. This means that l tyro wont inhibit reparation, but will ensure there is still dopamine to be absorbed in situations where it is depleted. This is just an educated guess, so dont get mad at me or anything
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:36
DiabolicScheme DiabolicScheme is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Tyrosine is a rate limited enzyme and a precursor to dopamine it doesn't have any effect except for what one's brain wants to do with it. It doesn't increase dopamine just because you are taking it, your brain determines that.

Its not going to hurt the recovery of dopamine receptors and it may in fact help restore dopamine levels if the body wants to convert tyrosine to dopamine, by having a healthy supply of tyrosine it means your mind the tools for making dopamine, tyrosine doesn't make unnatural levels of dopamine only dopamine releasers such as amphetamines do.

Its the direct effect of consistent use of amphetamines that causes the brain to go "hey wait there is too much juice (dopamine) here we need throttle back" and this downregulation is what causes dysphoria and a need to take more for the same effect.

If anything taking constantly for awhile, quitting and avoiding tyrosine is worse because you've allowed the mind to downregulate receptors in the first place and you've deprived the body from a potential dopamine recovery tool (tyrosine).

Furthermore it hasn't been certain that recovery is even possible in every case and there is still debate if amphetamines are neurotoxic or not.

The best route is to not allow downregulation happen at all.
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Old 05-01-2012, 17:24
Tech House Tech House is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by addersloth View Post
What seems to make sense to me is that the brain would start repairing receptors when it notices that less dopamine is being absorbed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabolicScheme View Post
Tyrosine is a rate limited enzyme and a precursor to dopamine it doesn't have any effect except for what one's brain wants to do with it. It doesn't increase dopamine just because you are taking it, your brain determines that.
I love both of these comments because they tell the story about how the brain responds to problems it encounters. We are incredibly complex survival machines, if we give our bodies what they need and don't use things that cause harm then our bodies naturally repair themselves. The brain "wants to be healthy" so of course it uses what it finds to try to repair connections, neurons, etc. We heal from sickness because our bodies "want to be healthy." Call it God or The Universe or the evolution of microorganisms that got together to form animals so that they could use each other to survive, it doesn't matter. The important thing to know is that the brain can be damaged by chemicals which FORCE chemical and neuronal responses (such as amphetamines and MDMA) but when we supply it with reasonable amounts of substances that don't force the brain then the brain will do what it needs and use what it wants in order to make itself as healthy as possible.

We're all amazing and I hope everyone appreciates that.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:17
VeritasCaute VeritasCaute is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

I've used L-Tyrosine (1.5 -2 grams) during fairly brutal Dextroamphetamine withdrawals and there were points at which it made me feel almost completely normal.
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Old 13-11-2012, 06:59
Cheeseman Cheeseman is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

After using amphetamine to aid in my studies for the past few years, a good solid protein shake full of whey along with 1000mg of tums 30 minutes before an adderall will keep the dose lasting much longer, along with quick regeneration after stopping the drug. Seeing how I only use it for about a week straight every two months, the proteins are the essentials that break down into those precursors for on the go regeneration.

My experience with L-Tyrosine is your own. It increases the amount of Dopamine, thus increases the high.
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Old 13-11-2012, 09:24
thecomedown thecomedown is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Dopamine receptor downregulation doesn't actually occur that often.

From what I've read, and I really don't have time to cite the sources, there are several reasons why Adderall wouldn't work as well after several uses.

1. Acute tolerance - e.g. high doses of Adderall will actually cause tolerance that occurs within hours, most people will not experience this in doses under 60 mg.

2. Chronic usage tolerance - using Adderall for extended lengths of time, particularly with ROAs with high bioavailability, using high doses, or both. (snorting 40 mg a day will obviously increase tolerance very quickly).

3. Neurotransmitter depletion - using Adderall in high doses relatively often such that one actually depletes the dopamine in the brain.

4. Dopamine receptor downregulation - using Adderall in very high doses for very long periods of time. This is the last one to occur and although it can happen, it is rare except for in heavy, chronic abusers. This is more likely to happen in cocaine/methamphetamine abuse.


Replenishing dopamine amounts in the brain is helpful because most people who use Adderall often deplete their dopamine levels after extended usage.

I've never seen a claim/read anywhere that L-tyrosine would decrease the rate of recovery because of dopamine receptor down regulation.

L-tyrosine by itself will not get you high. It can't, it just creates the dopamine in your brain. Adderall/other drugs would be the thing to get you high, using the dopamine synthesized from the l-tyrosine.

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good, informative list of the causes
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Old 29-11-2012, 14:05
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Is it a given, then, that a person does develop a tolerance to Adderall? I've researched if people develop a tolerance or dependence and haven't found anything solid. I had thought no. It sounds like yes?
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Old 11-12-2012, 22:45
Tech House Tech House is offline
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Re: Dopamine Precursors in between Experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecomedown View Post
Dopamine receptor downregulation doesn't actually occur that often.
What are your thoughts on the way L-dopa loses its effectiveness in people with Parkinson's disease? It's my understanding that it isn't due to down-regulation but more to death of DA receptors in the substantia nigra.

Somewhere I read that we have a limited supply of DA receptors and they don't regenerate, which makes any heavy DA-releasing agent fairly hazardous to consume except in occasional smallish amounts.

I'm currently taking 5% L-dopa in the form of Mucuna pruriens, about a gram with breakfast, plus 600mg of 1-carboxy at bedtime. Some chemist types claim that 1-carboxy = L-dopa, that it's just a different name used for purposes of marketing it as something different. I like the effects I get from the combo. The bedtime dose is easy for sleep and helps me feel more rested when I awaken, and the morning dose is a subtle mild mood lifter. In addition, I tend to think these supplements would help keep a good supply of DA on hand for times when a dump of it is wanted or needed.

The subtle dopaminergic effects of l-theanine and phenibut are also very interesting, as both substances are considered to have neuroprotective and nootropic properties and to the extent they have downstream dopaminergic effects they're apparently non-toxic at any reasonable dose. So I take them too!!! )

Life's too short to play around with a little bit of herbs and supplements, I'm all for taking everything I can that enhances the enjoyment of my brief existence, as long as it's safe to do so.

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5-htp, adderall, amino acid, amphetamines, cocaine, dopamine, dopamine precursors, drugs, precursors, recovery, serotonin, stimulant, tolerance, tyrosine

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