Opinions - Stupid people and Research Chemicals

[Abrad]

Somebody posted "DOC Warning" on another forum about how he and his two friends all ended up in hospital after taking DOC.

It turns out that the three 15 YEAR OLDS had taken 25mg, 15mg, and 8mg, of DOC which they apparently eyeballed.

The OP came to the conclusion that "DOC is dangerous" which is why he posted this warning.

With people like this, how have there not been more deaths?

(Edited to correct minor details)

[fatal]

That is one of the most outrageous things i have ever heard. someone stupid enough to take 25 mg of DOC intentionally should not be taking psychedelics... or any drugs for that matter.... theyre all lucky to be alive actually so maybe they should be singing the praises of DOC instead of bashing it and saying it is dangerous... opiates for example are far less forgiving and in the case of a 10x overdose would most likely result in death or at least severe organ damage.

[Abrad]

This is why 14 year olds should not be taking these potentially dangerous compounds, they're too immature. I am very glad I did not have access at that age.

[Nagognog2]

Bongo would like to have a meeting with the asshole who sold/gave these kids the DOC - if the story is true in the first place. Speaking of needing a trip to the hospital...

[Abrad]

But really of it was bought from an online vendor I don't see how they can check their their customers age. I don't think many SWIMs would be prepared to send a copy of their passport/birth cert to make an order. SWIM has only once been asked to give his date of birth when buying RCs, and even doing this is far from foolproof.

[Sick Jack]

@abrad84
When you buy RC on the net, you already use your own credit card and the purchaser sends the stuff to your home. Giving a copy of your ID card would just a detail.....

A swiss vendor did it in the past, without problems. The vendor must just avoid to store the copy....

[Abrad]

Not everyone uses a credit card to buy them.

[Beeker]

Murphy's Law at work as well as the bodies ability to take abuse without immediate death. Doesn't take being young either, most of the people I've known who died from drugs did so on meth.

[radiometer]

I wrote this post just the other day on a different thread, it seems appropriate here:

I think that sort of thing was bound to happen at some point once vendors started selling DOx family drugs. Frankly I'm surprised there have been relatively few trainwrecks and no reported deaths.

Can anyone PM me a link to this original post, or just copy the text into this thread? I searched the board where I think it is and I can't find it, I suspect they may have deleted it already.

[Abrad]

Here it is

'm posting this because I have three confirmed, seperate incidents (and people) who went to the hospital as a result of DOC.

#1: AS (Initials) Took dose at approx. 9:30. 8mg +/- 1mg
Other Drugs: 2 beers, one cigar (petit corona)
At approx 2:30 am, he had to go to the hospital as a result of the DOC. He was having muscle spasms, difficulty breathing, and extremely fast heart pulpitations. He *was* tested for drugs, but came back negative, indicating that the DOC will not show up on drug tests. He is now taking percaset and flexinol (a muscle relaxant) as prescribed.

Previous exp: 10mg +/-1mg, described it as the best visuals of his life, great trip, very hard trip, ~10 hits of good cid.

#2: SWIM Took dose at ~4:30pm. 25mg +/-1mg
Blacked out for 3 hours from 6:30-9:30ish, all approx. When waking up, he felt sensations of fuzziness (like a body part falling asleep, but almost pleasurable). Saw huge amounts of thin glass tubes on ceiling. completely unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. Told mom about them, thinking she could see. Unable to stand up to prevent her from finding stash (one casing of shrooms growing, some shrooms drying, few pipes, 1.5oz weed). Dangerously low blood pressure.

#3: SB Took dose at ~9:30pm. 15 +/-1mg
Blacked out, woke up, rampaged the house. Sent to ER< blacked out again.

DOC is a dangerous drug. Do not eyeball it ever. Period. It won't show up on drug tests, but that doesn't mean to use it excessively. I find the best dosage to be around 6mg, but start LOW. that means 2mg..

[fatal]

nagognog: the kids most likely used a credit card acquired either from a family member or friend who is of age. the vendor can not be blamed for the fact that these individuals commited fraud and/or identity theft. it is pretty unlikely that they were able to acquire their own card at such an age where they were able to buy a product like that. SWIM's friend was able to defraud a cc co at the age of 16 and get a card that said he was 20 and use it to purchase RCs. of course in those days of such unscrupulous and huge suppliers this was also a fairly simple task.

abrad: when SWIM was 15 he had such things... it is not about age it is about being responsible for yourself and any others who use any of these things. at 15 swim was more responsible than most of the people of higher age groups are with most of these things. although it is a valid point to say that people of a younger age are much more likely to be irresponsible in general especially with drugs. it is also much less likely that someone of that approximate age (14-15) would have any legitimate advanced knowledge of the chemistry and pharmacology of such compoounds. some people though do blossom early... SWIM has had a huge interest in such things since the age of 10 and first tripped when he was only a wee lad of 11 years old (15 grams of heavenly blues... ahhh so tranquil and serene that was for SWIM). However SWIM does share the objection to anyone below 18 or maybe even below 20 to be able to have access to these. The really important part of having these things in one's possession is to make absolutely sure that if you are not the only one using them that you must put the other user's safety before ANYTHING. if you dose someone or let someone dose you are completely responsible for their health and actions NO MATTER WHAT. because if you were to be the cause of a death or a train wreck then you are thusly the one to blame legally ethically karmatically and spiritually for anything bad that happens. that isnt something that anyone wants. and its not just exotics we are speaking of. any psychedelic like acid mushrooms mescaline, any dissociative, any drug at all actually. only through responsible behavior by users will things like this ever be accepted or at least tolerated. we have a lot of leeway as a culture to be honest at this point so lkets all please try and not go and ruin it all.

PLUR

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very well said

[fatal]

Also SWIM says that at the age of 15 he would NEVER have done anything so dangerous with any drug as dosing even 10 mg of DOC is... let alone 25... good thing this family seems to have a very low propensity for toxicity in overdose... lets all go ahead and not test to see how far we can push that... reminds me of when people were taking upwards of 200-300 mg of AMT at a time or doses of 50 mg of 2c-t-7 nasally... and we wonder why the dea put those to rest for us...

Reputation Comments on this post:

Very old thread... very good point made though.

[Abrad]

After reading some of the posters other posts he really seems like the last person who should be taking RCs. He recommended somebody take 25mg of 2-ci for their first time and "work their way up" to a higher dose. It will be a miracle if he lives to be 16 at this rate.

[Pinkavvy]

Though swim prefers 2.5-4mg of DOC, he has had a good time on up to 12mg without the described problems above.

[nanobrain]

after reading the DOC Warning and the BL posts in the DOC threads where idiots profess to drive T5 after a heavy DOC dose, i am almost ready to give up.

i am coming to the conclusion that the internet must be destroyed.

[Alfa]

I can surely share that feeling. But don't blame the tool. Blame the person abusing it.

[Pinkavvy]

People need to stop making these chemicals available to these stupid uneducated kids. They're going to destroy it for the rest of us.

Reputation Comments on this post:

[Alfa]

If chemicals are provided for research purposes only, their going to be sold without asking who will consume it or where it's going to be sold to.

[Pinkavvy]

The providers maybe should start requiring a "Letter of intent" with each order describing what their intent is. This will weed out many young people who dont know what the chems may be researched for. Swip knows that many bulk wholesalers and custom synth labs require this.

[illuminati boy]

Way back in the day (well a few years ago anyway), some of the actual chemical supply houses would ask detailed questions about the presumed end-user or require some sort of additional age verification etc. It would be nice to think that these compounds would never find their way to someone not clever enough to at least come up with something like “to do in vitro binding studies on cloned rat 5HT2A receptors” or “to establish analytic reference standards” or something suitably intelligent to say ‘I am smart enough to take responsibility and I am not a 15 y/o without a scale just looking to get FuXeD uP.’

I B

Reputation Comments on this post:

very good post

[raven3davis]

These precautionary steps might prevent a few kids from getting rcs but in the long run they will probably be outlawed reguardless of how many people wind up in the hospital. SWIM also finds it surprising that there have not been any reported deaths from the DOX chemicals. SWIM also heard of a hospitalization which was caused by mixing a six pack of beer with 6mg DOC. Suppliers know what these chemicals are being used for, they just prefer to turn their shoulders because of the high profits involved.

These chemicals might as well be illegal right now. It's not like anyone is using them for "research purposes." Whoever is synthesizing these chemicals is responsible for the downfall of research chemicals. If you manufacure 100-1000g of DOC you are making thousands of doses of chemicals that will soon be distributed and taken by psychonauts. If anyone is to blame it is the people synthesizing the compounds. They know exactly what they are doing and they know where the chemicals are going. If they were so concerned about peoples saftey they wouldnt be making the chemicals in the first place. Suppliers might request a letter of intent but they just do it to cover their own ass. They know that the "letter of intent" is just a "letter of bullshit." You really cant place the blame on any one person. The chemists know what will happen to the chemicals, the suppliers know what will happen to the chemicals, and buyers obviously know what will happen to the chemicals .

Research Chemicals can be dangerous if used improperly but chemists know this so if anyone is responsible for the damage caused by research chemicals it is the people making them. It is funny know users can be prosecuted for posessing research chemicals, and several supply companies have been busted but SWIM has not heard of one manufacturer being prosecuted.

SWIM really doesnt think anyone should be prosecuted for any drug related crime. Everyone knows that drugs are dangerous and that there are risks involved with drug use. You really cant blame anyone for the downfall of research chemicals because everyone is responsible for their own actions. Who is responsible for these chemicals ending up in 15 year old kids hands. Whoever phsyically gave them the chemical is responsible, but whoever gave the chemical to them is equally responsible. It all goes back to the manufacturer who is essentially the root cause of any problems associated with research chemicals. They know what they are making and they do it for the money. Without the chemists there would be no research chemicals and they would quickly fall out of the spot light. How much fun would that be though???? How would psychonauts experiment with these compounds is they weren't even produced?

Be safe with these chemicals and look out for your fellow friends. There will be some accidents here and there but people get in accidents everyday. All you can do is hope for the best but as far as SWIM as concerned these chemicals are allready illegal. SWIM is surprised that only AMT and 2c-T-7 have recently been made illegal. It is just a matter of time before the other chemicals follow the same path. It is sad but inevidable.

It is kinda funny how meth cooks are looked down upon along with anyone who cooks up illegal drugs, but RC producers are actually in legitimate businesses. In reality they are no different from any other drug dealer/producer, they are looking out for themselves and in search of profits. They know that people are being hurt by the chemicals they make, yet they still produce the chemicals for "research purposes only." riiiiiiiiiiiight! okay this is probably just another rant but SWIM just had to express his opinion on this subject.

SWIM thinks all the damage has allready been done. The governments knows the potential of these chemicals so they will be banned reguardless of how many kids go to the hospital. Look on any drug forum and you can see countless people discussing research chemicals and sharing their experiences with each other. The whole "research purposes only," front cant be taken seriously when thousands of online users are writing a trip reports telling how they tripped their balls off on(insert rc name here) last weekend. The psychadelic potential of these chemicals is well known by the man so any major action taken to prevent the illegalization of rcs will be in vain.

it will be a sad sad day but anyone who thinks the day will not come is sadly mistaken. The government does not care about "the rest of us." A user is a user, reguardless of weather they are responsible or not.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Insightful.

[fatal]

Not to go ahead and promote the safety of such retarded behavior but... some relevant research...

Originally Posted by Alexander T. Shulgin

This is one of the last of the experimental compounds within the phenethylamine family on which any animal toxicity studies were performed by me prior to human studies. A mouse injected with 50 mg/Kg (ip) showed considerable twitching and was irritable. Another, at 100 mg/Kg (ip), had overt shaking at 20 minutes, which evolved into persistent hyperactivity that lasted several hours. Yet another, at 125 mg/Kg (ip), lost much of her righting reflex within 15 minutes, entered into convulsions at 50 minutes, and was dead a half hour later. A fourth mouse, at 150 mg/Kg (ip), entered into spontaneous convulsions within 10 minutes, and expired in what looked like an uncomfortable death at 22 minutes following injection. What was learned? That the LD/50 was somewhere between 100 and 125 mg/Kg for the mouse. And an effective dose in man of maybe 2 mg (for an 80 Kg man) is equivalent to 25 ug/Kg. Therefore the index of safety (the therapeutic index, the lethal dose divided by the effective dose) is well over a thousand.

...

Actually, it is very likely that the damaging, if not lethal, level of DOB in man is a lot lower than this ratio would imply. There was a report of a death of a young lady following the snorting of an amount of DOB so massive, there was the actual recovery of over nine milligrams of the drug from her body tissues in the post-mortem examination. It was said that she and her companion had thought that the drug they were using was MDA and, taking a dosage appropriate for this, effectively overdosed themselves. He survived, following convulsions and an extended period (several weeks) of being in a comatose state. Tragic examples have been reported that involve arterial vascular spasm. But in most overdose cases ascribed to DOB, the identity of the drug has remained unestablished.

Originally Posted by raven3davis

SWIM also finds it surprising that there have not been any reported deaths from the DOX chemicals.

not very surprising. most of these chemicals are really very similar dosage wise to the lsd related series of ergolines. also similarly to lsd a fatal overdose does not actually seem to likely. the real dangers are merely psychological it would seem. very real dangers those are though. everyone should still excercise caution while using these drugs. they are extremely potent and could easily be very damaging to you if you are not careful... even if lethality is a high unlikelihood.

[prospero]

"after reading the DOC Warning and the BL posts in the DOC threads where idiots profess to drive T5 after a heavy DOC dose, i am almost ready to give up. i am coming to the conclusion that the internet must be destroyed."

"I can surely share that feeling. But don't blame the tool. Blame the person abusing it."

"People need to stop making these chemicals available to these stupid uneducated kids. They're going to destroy it for the rest of us."

Which is of course the crux of the entire legalisation debate. (Kids don't have a monopoly on stupidity - there are plenty of stupid adults out there who are equally keen to kill themselves on drugs). We in this forum have a slightly more enlightened view of drug taking, in that we recognise the tremendous benefits they can bring, which the government refuses to accept. Even so the dangers, sadly, mean that as with many other things in life, stupid people have to be protected from themselves. Some form of licenced usage is the only real long-term solution to this.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Agreed

[napoleon in rags]

Kids like this shouldn't be regarded as morons either, they're just kids and kids make mistakes. Misinformation is the key. They may have heard from 5 or 6 of their personal friends that it's a greak high, or whatever. Most of the time they have no idea what they're injesting, or they've been told that it's something else (LSD, ect)

[treefingers49]

Speaking as a person who was very recently a kid, I believe they can be labeled morons. As a kid, SWIM was still responsible and researched psychedelics to death, reading every trip report he could get his hands on. SWIM even made the decision to abstain from psychedelics until he achieved a better understanding of the world. Research and knowledge is essential especially when dealing with these powerful and little known substances, regardless of age.