Netherlands - Dutch coffee shops introduce fingerprint ID

[motorhead]

Dutch coffee shops introduce fingerprint ID

Jan Libbenga, The Register, 22nd March 2006

Some Dutch coffee shops, which sell marijuana in small quantities for personal use, are introducing fingerprinting technology to check the age of customers.

The shops are not allowed to sell to anyone under the age of 18. Coffee shops currently require photographic ID for proof of age.

The first coffee shops to use turnstiles with built-in fingerprint sensors are Inpetto in Rotterdam, Birdy in Haarlem, and 't Rotterdammertje in Doetinchem in the east of the country. Customers must first register with the shops, but personal details will not be stored.

The technology has been developed by FingerIdent, a company owned by Gerrie Mansur, one of the members of legendary Dutch hacking group Hit2000. According to Mansur, the system can match 35,000 fingerprints in less than a second.

[MrJim]

The dutch government doesn't record fingerprints, though, do they? How would this work - Bring in some ID, have your print taken, then just take the print swipe each time you enter? How is this really any different than just showing your ID at the door?

[xpr´k]

Originally Posted by MrJim

The dutch government doesn't record fingerprints, though, do they? How would this work - Bring in some ID, have your print taken, then just take the print swipe each time you enter? How is this really any different than just showing your ID at the door?

Automatic for one, and you werent forced by law to carry any ID up till a few months ago in holland. I'm asuming the fingerprint idea dates from before the new ID law.

[Shiacmkmleer]

Originally Posted by xpr´k

Automatic for one, and you werent forced by law to carry any ID up till a few months ago in holland. I'm asuming the fingerprint idea dates from before the new ID law.

Wait what? In Holland you have to carry an ID With you at all times?

[podge]

Originally Posted by Shiacmkmleer

Wait what? In Holland you have to carry an ID With you at all times?

An I.D is required if one wish's to enter a coffee shop. Not sure about just walking around. It would be unlikely someone would be asked for I.D if they are just walking around minding their own business swim guesses.

[levdog]

Originally Posted by MrJim

The dutch government doesn't record fingerprints, though, do they? How would this work - Bring in some ID, have your print taken, then just take the print swipe each time you enter? How is this really any different than just showing your ID at the door?

1. It says that the customer must first be registered with the shop, so presumably during the registration proccess, their print will be added to the shops, own database.

2. You dont actualy need to match the prints, you prints will tell the computer how old you are almost to the week, by just looking at them.

[motorhead]

If you click on the link to the Register in my post there are many related stories regarding fingerprint identification technology in Europe that can probably bring people up to date on the topic. This is all very interesting stuff if you have the slightest interest in identity fraud, paranoia, or George Orwell.
I have no idea what the registers reputation is like, but a google search would probably bring up lots more goodies. Stuff like this makes me want to re-read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, and 1984 by Orwell.

[Alfa]

When they first introduced these machines, I stayed away from those coffeeshops as there is no way that I'm gonna give my fingerprint out. You never know what happens to that database. But more and more coffeeshops are using it. For them it is the ultimate solution. Cops are trying hard to find a minor inside. One minor can easely close the coffeeshop down for a limited time or permanent. It is however often possible to bypass the machine by buying your way in if you clearly are of legal age. Often you have to buy some consumption coins.

[xpr´k]

Originally Posted by Alfa

When they first introduced these machines, I stayed away from those coffeeshops as there is no way that I'm gonna give my fingerprint out. You never know what happens to that database. But more and more coffeeshops are using it. For them it is the ultimate solution. Cops are trying hard to find a minor inside. One minor can easely close the coffeeshop down for a limited time or permanent. It is however often possible to bypass the machine by buying your way in if you clearly are of legal age. Often you have to buy some consumption coins.

Alfa, do they actually store personal data to go along with the fingerprint, cause i dont really see the need for that? Just 'register' by showing your ID and your print should be the only data stored.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Alfa

It is however often possible to bypass the machine by buying your way in if you clearly are of legal age. Often you have to buy some consumption coins.

I thought consumption coins were for 16+ to buy cigarettes in vending machines. Or am I thinking of something else? (age coins maybe?)

[Nature Boy]

SWIM wouldn't be paranoid of his fingerprint being used. It's a good idea that will keep minors out of coffeeshops.

[Sick Jack]

@nature_boy_liam

Yes of course, but just avoid to kill you mother-in-law and then visit a coffeeshop, as said, you don't what will be done with the data base.... ;-P

[Alfa]

What is stored depends upon the coffeeshop. I suspect many will not store much more than age, fingerprint and access times. But those shops that can afford such a machine, are also likely to offer a savings card. When you buy a certain amount, you get points. With a certain amount of points, you get free weed. This card has a bit more data on you and how much you buy. I do not see this as all to problematic, but I just don't like the idea. Further this country is changing very rapidly. Justice minister Donner has talked about full customer registration of coffeeshops (Donnerpas) and recently grow shops. So, I will not take any chance of ending up in some future database.

[motorhead]

The key word is 'future'. Imagine what things will be like in 20 years at our present rate of technological advancement. I mean, look at now-search engines storing massive amounts of data, electronic fingerprint machines, monotary transactions via credit/debit cards, ex-cons with tracking devices, cell phones and laptops with wireless access to the internet, increased connectivity worldwide to the internet-you get the idea.
Just imagine when all this eventually, and it will, comes together. A large % of the worlds population, and all their relevent personal information, will be on a database. Paint your own picture of events here, who knows exactly how it will play out, but I can imagine governments and law enforcement agencies weilding incredible power as a result of having access to such data.

[FrankenChrist]

This is kind of off-topic, but Jan Libbenga is a great journalist. I think he also writes for OOR!, a Dutch music mag, and the Register, an on-line IT-mag.

[Creeping Death]

If youre a minor in holland, isn't it easier to just buy weed off the street? Sure, coffeshops have different types, but it's not hard to find what you need if you ask around.

In sweden, everything is bought off the street if you're a minor. Beer too.

[Alfa]

As a minor you can buy weed from friends. There are also some illegal places without a coffeeshop permit, which sell to anyone.

[Creeping Death]

Makes the whole thing seem very redundant. It's like spending a bunch of money to make sure that minors don't buy dirt. They dont buy it from you anyway, because it's all over the place.

[Alfa]

I was talking about consumption coins, not age coins.

[elbow]

Biometrics in general make me really paranoid.

But another possibility, that may be just annoying, is that all this information: from cell-phones, gps, biometric profiling, etc. will be used as much by marketing fims as by governments. Marketeers are the people who have the most vested economic interest in this sort of identification (besides the governments), and they will have an easier time getting people to submit to these technologies because it will be "for the customer's convenience."

Even in this coffeeshop example: they are running a business, and for them the befefit is obvious if they can keep minors out of their shop and avoid getting fined or closed. For the customer, the benefit is that you can go into the shop, even if you haven't got your ID with you. But perhaps eventually when you swipe your finger-print or your retina-scan or subcutaneously implanted rfid chip or whatever, on a screenthe coffee-shop proprietor will see all of your customer data on a screen; that you spend $25 a week, prefer grass to hash, always order a coffee with milk and also buy some blue rizla papers and on and on.

Then, when you go to a shop in another city and swipe yourself in, any coffee-shop with the world-wide computer ID system will also be able to see on the screen what your preferences and habits are. Perhaps the dealer will be able to recommend a grass he knows you will like and throw in a free pack of your chosen brad of rolling papers....or if he sees from your ID that you are a criminal, he can refuse you entry.

So all of this crap is bound more and more together, your identity as a consumer becomes the only identity you have, and behind this friendly exterior of convenience is the sneaky reality of being controlled through this information, which people (corporations, governments) will be paying huge money to access for their own profit.

[Fish Cookies]

I have to say I don't particularly enjoy the idea of places storing my finger prints everytime I just wanna go to a coffee shop :P Any updates on this situation? Thinking of going to Amsterdam next summer with some friends...

[Lunar Loops]

SWIS once had a friend who was based in Maastricht for many years and used to visit frequently. Now SWIS remembers thinking how much more laid back Maastricht was than any of the larger cities like Amsterdam. No sinister overtones, no pushing.....has the situation really degenerated that much that this is necessary? SWIS NEVER encountered individuals selling drugs aggressively (or any other way for that matter) on the streets near the coffee shops.

Does this development mean that non Dutch citizens will now not be permitted to purchase from the shops?

Anyway, this from Herald Tribune (Europe):

Marijuana shops in Maastricht to demand fingerprints from customers

The Associated Press
Published: May 30, 2007


AMSTERDAM, Netherlands: Coffee shops licensed to sell marijuana in the southern Dutch city of Maastricht will begin fingerprinting customers and scanning their IDs this summer, a spokesman for the shops said Wednesday.
The measures are aimed at ensuring the rules of the Netherlands famed tolerance policy are not violated, which could lead to shops being closed, said Marc Josemans, chairman of the Union of Maastricht's Coffee Shops.
"This is not something that we are doing willingly, but with pain in our hearts," Josemans told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Wednesday. He said shops in Rotterdam and several Dutch border cities were considering following suit.
"We're very afraid we're going to lose customers over this, and to be honest we're even a little ashamed we're doing it, but the City of Maastricht has such harsh punishments that we don't feel we have any choice," he said.
Marijuana is technically illegal in the Netherlands, but cities may license shops to sell no more than 5 grams (less than a quarter ounce) per customer per day. The shops may not sell to anyone under 18, nor permit drugs other than marijuana or hashish on the premises.
Since Maastricht Mayor Gerd Leers took office in 2002, police have strictly enforced the rules, and shops found in violation are automatically closed for a minimum of three months for a single infraction, six months for a second offense, and permanently for a third.
As a result, 11 of Maastricht's 26 licensed shops have been closed, leaving just 15 open.
Josemans, who is also owner of the "Easy Going" coffee shop, said the electronic system would be tested at his store Aug. 1 and used by all licensed stores by September.
Fingerprints would be coupled with a digital photograph and a scan of customers' ID cards — removing all personal information except date of birth — and then stored on a computer system at the shop.
When a customer wants to buy weed, he will have to prove that he or she is of age, and has not already purchased the 5-gram limit that day at the same store.
"We're not going to give this information to anybody else, and we're not linked to each other or the Internet," Josemans said.
He said the shops already had video surveillance cameras and cooperated with police in criminal investigations, but the stored fingerprints would be too low in quality for use by police.
Because of Maastricht's location near the border with Belgium and Germany and not far from France, the city receives 4.5 million "drugs tourists" per year who come just to buy weed and then drive home again.
City spokesman Math Wijnands said the drug trade brought a host of problems with it, most notably petty criminals who seek to sell marijuana or other drugs in the neighborhood of the licensed coffee shops.
"They know that they have a target group here, but they go about their business in an aggressive manner," Wijnands said. "That causes problems in the city center."
The city is currently negotiating to move more than half of the remaining shops to the outskirts of town — angering neighboring countries like Belgium who object to what amount to marijuana drive-through stores on their doorsteps.
Wijnands confirmed that the city was aware of the plan by the shops to store customer data, and approved.
"If they're going to take ID checks into their own hands and obey the rules as much as possible, then that's only to be applauded," he said.
Josemans said the system had been vetted with the Netherlands' digital privacy watchdog, known by its Dutch acronym CBP, and did not violate any laws. A CBP spokeswoman could not immediately confirm that.

[Benga]

Originally Posted by shroomonger

SWIS once had a friend who was based in Maastricht for many years and used to visit frequently. Now SWIS remembers thinking how much more laid back Maastricht was than any of the larger cities like Amsterdam. No sinister overtones, no pushing.....has the situation really degenerated that much that this is necessary? SWIS NEVER encountered individuals selling drugs aggressively (or any other way for that matter) on the streets near the coffee shops.

swim thinks this has changed a little. Maastricht being a border town, with France Belgium and Germany nearby, it's well placed for attracting day shopping activities. Last couple of times swim, drove from Germany to Paris he stopped there for lunch, and got hit on by french guys spotting foreign licence plates in the main central parking area. the pushing is aimed at foreign tourists.
And correct swim if he's wrong, but Maastricht, as far as swim can remember, has always been a quite conservative town.
this and the bordertown effect combined... but fingerprinting ?????

b

[Lunar Loops]

Originally Posted by benga

swim thinks this has changed a little. Maastricht being a border town, with France Belgium and Germany nearby, it's well placed for attracting day shopping. Last couple of times swim, drove from Germany to Paris he stopped there for lunch, and got hit on by french guys spotting foreing licence places in the main central parking area. the pushing is aimed at foreign tourists.
And correct swim if he's wrong, but Maastricht, as far as swim can remember, has always been quite a conservative town.
this and the bordertown effect combined... but fingerprinting ?????

b

Yes, SWIS would say that Maastricht has always been a conservative town, but back in the day, the sex shops and coffee shops were fairly low-key and presented no problems for the town. So the attitude may well have been more one of tolerance than actually being 'laid back'. Anyway, SWIS is sorry to hear that it has changed to such an extent that this sort of approach is deemed necessary.

Now I realise that this is as much a case of the shop owners covering their own backs as anything else, but surely this will not solve the problem of street dealers (at least not in the short term). If an area has been identified as somewhere where substances can be procured, then the customers will surely still come (regardless of the status of the coffee shops).

[Heretic.Ape.]

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v07/n749/a05.html?1042
MAASTRICHT COFFEE SHOPS DROP PLANS FOR BIOMETRIC SECURITY SYSTEM

Plans for a biometric security system in cannabis-selling coffee shops in the Dutch town of Maastricht have been dropped -- but they're still going to be taking smokers' fingerprints when they buy their stash.

Cannabis smokers in the Dutch town of Maastricht can breathe a bit easier. A proposed biometric security system the town's 15 coffee shops had planned on installing this summer has been changed due to its expense and threats to customer privacy.

Initially, the Maastricht coffee shop union's new security system required a customer to register and submit to face and fingerprint scans, which would have been stored in an electronic database. Despite the clear threat to customer privacy that the new system presented, the coffee shops felt it was the only way to protect their businesses from the stiff government penalties against selling more than the legal daily limit per customer, or selling to minors.

Marc Josemans, who has owned the Maastricht coffee shop Easy Going for 23 years, told SPIEGEL ONLINE that if a shop is caught violating these rules, it is forced to close for three months. A second infraction means a six-month hiatus, and a third would close the shop for good. In contrast, according to Josemans, a bartender caught selling to minors is charged a fine of a mere €360 ( $483 ).

With 27 employees at his shop, Josemans, who is also the head of the town's coffee shop union, decided that even though these penalties are "completely out of proportion" to the crime, it was better to start working with the system than risk such stiff penalties. A security system was the only option, he says.

But, he says the biometric system turned out to be too complex, too expensive ( at about €150,000 per shop ) and too invasive to customer privacy. The shops will still install a security system, but it will no longer store customers' personal and physical data.

The new system, set to start in September, will cost each shop between €50,000 and €60,000 and will be able to check more than 1,200 types of identification. Additionally, shops will take customers' fingerprints, which will be thrown out at the end of each day.

Though several other shops in Maastricht declined to answer SPIEGEL ONLINE's questions, Josemans says they're all installing the new system voluntarily.

Josemans acknowledges that shops will lose business, but only in the beginning. "Don't worry, we make enough money, so that's not the worst thing," he says.

Technically, marijuana is illegal in the Netherlands, though it's tolerated in small quantities. Josemans says that if other European countries took more responsibility and devised more realistic cannabis policies, shops like his wouldn't have to make such drastic changes. He hopes that these countries will do just that when the United Nations' Commission on Narcotic Drugs holds its next annual meeting in 2008 in Vienna.

He is concerned that customers might turn to illegal drug dealing circles to maintain their anonymity, and Josemans says these dealers don't look after their clients as the shops do.

"I am not proud that now it will be more difficult to enter a coffee shop than it is for a terrorist to enter Europe," he says."