Drugs-Forum  
Home Wiki Studies Forum Groups Blog Video Images News
Go Back   Drugs Forum > DRUG-FORUMS > Ethnobotanicals > Kratom
Mark Forums Read
Register Tags

Notices

Kratom Mitragyna speciosa

 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 15-10-2011, 00:59
cduval04 cduval04 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 06-03-2011
28 y/o Female from United States
Posts: 20
cduval04 is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Hey I wanted to know what a cautionary first time dose of Bali enhanced kratom powder for me would be.

The reason I am asking is because I had a DXM trip that sent me to the emergency room on Wednesday. Based on my weight however is should not have. I am 140kg female (about 319 lbs) with tourette syndrome. and 1/4 inch shy of 6 feet. I took 33 gel caps of robitussin @ 15 mg per cap that would be 495mg...I made sure it was JUST DXM HBr no other active ingredients. Now according to Dr. William E. Whites DXM plateau scale that dose should have been the 2nd plateau which is 2.5-7.5mg/kg, the thing is though, based on plateau descriptions, I was CLEARLY not at 1 or 2 I was more like in between 3 and 4....I couldn't speak in sentences that made sense and I could not walk at all or I would fall over. I even took a 1/2 mg of klonopin b/c I heard of ppl who are prone to anxiety attacks taking one prophylactically, but I had also read that it can totally "block" the effects of DXM so I was sure I would be fine. The thing is also weird I took the 495mg around 3:45pm and was ok when I got home, I told my mom I was just tired, laid down and took about an hour nap, and it wasn't till I woke up to pee, I realized WHOA I think something is wrong.

If I had lived alone, I prob would have slept it off and been ok in the morning, but living with 2 very protective parents who I am a little more dependent on than your average 25 yr old earned me a very quick trip to the er. I don't want this experience to put an end to my "experimenting" with ethnobotanicals, but i need to realize that for whatever reason, god gave me a hypersensitive body and I think my denial in wanting to admit that and just "wanting to be like everyone else" has made me make a couple stupid judgement calls, mostly in dosing that has given me a few very unpleasant trips. So my question is, I bought the Bali premium kratom powder (I know "premium" means it is not just powder from the leaves and that it is enhanced with some extract) and I'm thinking maybe a gram, or very possibly even like 500mcg just go very conservatively the first time just to see how I react? I tend to be this way with all the recreational drugs I have tried, I have been recently smoking incense blends with AM-2201 which have been he ing me relax and also helping with frequent cramps and nausea from my IBS, but again one good hit from a glass pipe is plenty to get me feeling very nice.

Also what is it with erowid and even this forum, b4 my DXM trip, reading people's of their DXM trips accounts of these forums, they were saying they were taking trips with 800,900 even as high as 1200mg, now the doc who came into my room in the er said I took about half of the dose that would have really gotten be in life threatening trouble, so how can ppl on these forums be dosing with 1200mg of DXM and be ok? Are they lying or was doc just trying to freak me out so I would never do it again? (which I have no interest in ever repeating anyway)

Anyway, I was just wondering what maybe a person experienced with ethnobotanicals might be able to reccommend as a very conservative first time dose for a person of my size. I know everyone is different and you can "tell me how much to take" but I am just asking for some ball park estimates on what a good starting dose would be. Was taking 5mg tabs of oxycodone for about 3 or 4 days post op until I developed a little tolerance and then 7.5 was my dose 10 days post op I am now off the oxy, but I have to admit that is all the time it took for me to want more, and I was thinking the kratom may help me deal with that. Also I noticed that after a few days the oxy no longer made me feel relaxed but anxious, agitated and restless, but if I took it at the same time as my regular dose of klonopin, none of the anxiety seemed to happen.
  #2  
Old 15-10-2011, 05:06
radiometer radiometer is offline
bananadine addict
 
Join Date: 13-04-2005
Male from United States
Posts: 3,308
Blog Entries: 1
radiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forum
Points: 7,470, Level: 12 Points: 7,470, Level: 12 Points: 7,470, Level: 12
Activity: 0.5% Activity: 0.5% Activity: 0.5%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

My very strong gut reaction is that you are a what's known as a "poor CYP2D6 metabolizer", which means deficient in the liver enzymes that are responsible for elimination of DXM. Poor metabolizers will be subject to much stronger and more prolonged effects.

I don't know which enzymes are involved with the metabolism of kratom alkaloids. But you could look this up pretty easily.

If this is the case, it would be smart to get your liver enzymes checked by a doctor as this can affect the metabolism of many different drugs.


EDIT:

I did a bit of searching for you, and the results suggest that CYP2D6 is indeed quite important for metabolism of mitragynine, but that a poor metabolizer should expect decreased effects from kratom. Please do not infer from this post that you should take a large dose of kratom. In addition to getting your enzyme levels checked, I would suggest starting low and seeing what happens.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Very helpful and responsible answer for the OP. Thas for doing the research.

Last edited by radiometer; 15-10-2011 at 05:17.
  #3  
Old 15-10-2011, 06:35
FenixDelta753 FenixDelta753 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 10-03-2011
Male from United States
Posts: 486
FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.
Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3
Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

I think that enzyme is similar in processing Kratom but don't quote me on that..

Anyway, I'd say start with 3 grams. Toss and wash. Meaning measure out 3 grams, throw it in your mouth and wash it down. Don't even try to do it without a chaser like water... It just doesn't work..

If you don't feel anything with 3 grams after waiting about 20 minutes, usually takes me that long to come up, add another 2 grams, repeat until you feel something.

Something super duper awesome about Kratom is that when you overdose with it. You don't die.. And there really isn't a possibility too. No reported cases that I know of that resulted just from Kratom. Now, that isn't to say it's fun. You'll just puke for a while from what I hear. it's never happened to me although I've gotten close.

Personally, I love Kratom with a passion and it's my drug of choice and haven't looked back since I started using it and hopefully it'll suit your fancy as well..
  #4  
Old 15-10-2011, 13:49
cduval04 cduval04 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 06-03-2011
28 y/o Female from United States
Posts: 20
cduval04 is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Thank you for the info, I figured it was something metabolic-related and I did read about the enzymes, esp. CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 but didint see any of my mess on that list except fluvoxamine which is said had med/low potential to inhibit this enzyme.

However, REALLY wanting to err on the side of caution I emptied a puritans pride valerian capsule (not sure of the capsule size but sort of looked similar to a 0 (which holds about 375mg of Kratom powder does that sound right) I sorta knew this dose wouldn't do much but I wanted to use it as my starting point yonder how I reacted, it was a mild pleasant feeling and then I don't really recall anything else cept kinda scary dreams cuz I fell asleep pretty quick (usually takes me FOREVER to fall asleep after getting in bed). So I think maybe the next time I will double my dose and see how that feels then see what to increase it by after that....I know I would probably be totally fine just taking 1 or 2 grams but I am erring on the side of caution. Also are capsules less effective than a toss & wash and how much more effect would u say u get if u ingest Kratom on an empty stomach vs. after eating or like an hour after eating? Is there really that much of a difference?

Thanks again you guys have been helpful in guiding my decisions.
  #5  
Old 15-10-2011, 13:52
JfromM JfromM is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 11-09-2011
35 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 43
JfromM is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by cduval04 View Post
So my question is, I bought the Bali premium kratom powder (I know "premium" means it is not just powder from the leaves and that it is enhanced with some extract) and I'm thinking maybe a gram, or very possibly even like 500mcg just go very conservatively the first time just to see how I react?
Premium does NOT mean enhanced, in any way. Most plain leaf kratoms are called "premium." Not sure why, but it is what it is.
You can ask 10 people how much kratom you should take, and you'll probably get 11 answers. People take anywhere from 1-2 grams all the way up to 30 grams +. You really just need to find out on your own. You can always take more if you're not satisfied, but you can't "untake" too much. Also, keep in mind that daily kratom use will lead to increased tolerance AND addiction, so tread lightly

Post Quality Evaluations:
Especially liked your last sentence. Good lookin' out.
  #6  
Old 15-10-2011, 19:16
FenixDelta753 FenixDelta753 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 10-03-2011
Male from United States
Posts: 486
FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.
Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3
Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

In response to capsules bs toss and wash, I believe it is a little less effective because your stomach has to break down that capsule before it can even begin with the Kratom and when you just swallow it you're already good to to. I find it very interesting that you can be good with just one capsule. I think in your case a little tolerance would be good because you wouldn't have to be too too careful with everything since your body can handle more. Just remember to to back or around your original dose if you take a break after developing tolerance or you'll get sick.
  #7  
Old 15-10-2011, 23:15
JfromM JfromM is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 11-09-2011
35 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 43
JfromM is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiometer View Post
My very strong gut reaction is that you are a what's known as a "poor CYP2D6 metabolizer", which means deficient in the liver enzymes that are responsible for elimination of DXM. Poor metabolizers will be subject to much stronger and more prolonged effects.

I don't know which enzymes are involved with the metabolism of kratom alkaloids. But you could look this up pretty easily.

If this is the case, it would be smart to get your liver enzymes checked by a doctor as this can affect the metabolism of many different drugs.


EDIT:

I did a bit of searching for you, and the results suggest that CYP2D6 is indeed quite important for metabolism of mitragynine, but that a poor metabolizer should expect decreased effects from kratom. Please do not infer from this post that you should take a large dose of kratom. In addition to getting your enzyme levels checked, I would suggest starting low and seeing what happens.
Totally agree with starting low. Not just with kratom, but EVERYTHING

I too initially thought of the CYP2D6 issue, but if that were the case, there probably would have been zero effects felt from the oxycodone. Especially @ 5mgs.
  #8  
Old 16-10-2011, 04:17
cduval04 cduval04 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 06-03-2011
28 y/o Female from United States
Posts: 20
cduval04 is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Wait wouldnt poor metabolism AKA "inhibition" of CYP2D6 increase effects of Kratom if Kratom is a substrate (drug metabolized by) CYP2D6?

Anyway u will take ur advice and ditch the caps for toss & wash & just increase dose bit by bit...and no I didn't hardly feel anything from that tiny dose last night
  #9  
Old 16-10-2011, 04:22
JfromM JfromM is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 11-09-2011
35 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 43
JfromM is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by cduval04 View Post
Wait wouldnt poor metabolism AKA "inhibition" of CYP2D6 increase effects of Kratom if Kratom is a substrate (drug metabolized by) CYP2D6?

Anyway u will take ur advice and ditch the caps for toss & wash & just increase dose bit by bit...and no I didn't hardly feel anything from that tiny dose last night
Folks with CYP450 deficiency get increased effects (and never build tolerance), but the CYP2D6 deficient ones experience the opposite
  #10  
Old 16-10-2011, 05:10
radiometer radiometer is offline
bananadine addict
 
Join Date: 13-04-2005
Male from United States
Posts: 3,308
Blog Entries: 1
radiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forumradiometer is living in mutualistic symbiosis with drugs-forum
Points: 7,470, Level: 12 Points: 7,470, Level: 12 Points: 7,470, Level: 12
Activity: 0.5% Activity: 0.5% Activity: 0.5%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by cduval04 View Post
Wait wouldnt poor metabolism AKA "inhibition" of CYP2D6 increase effects of Kratom if Kratom is a substrate (drug metabolized by) CYP2D6?

Anyway u will take ur advice and ditch the caps for toss & wash & just increase dose bit by bit...and no I didn't hardly feel anything from that tiny dose last night
Some drugs require to be metabolized before they are effective, while others do not, but are instead made inactive by being metabolized.
  #11  
Old 16-10-2011, 18:06
cduval04 cduval04 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 06-03-2011
28 y/o Female from United States
Posts: 20
cduval04 is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Tried close to a gram (toss & wash) last night but was really edgy and anxious...I know at lower doses Kratom is a stimulant while at higher it gives more of the classic opiate sedative "floaty" effect just not sure how much it would take to get from stimulant to sedative zone?

Also, would that CYP2D6 thing explain why kava does nothing for me and @ like 10 good hits (yes, with a really hot lighter and holding it in for 10-20seconds) of 5x salvia I still can't breakthrough? I think my highest dose of kava was about 25 caps each with 30mg of kavalactones I felt a little tiny something for like 5 minutes and then nothing at all. So weird that all these do nohing yet I am so sensitive to am-2201 that 1-3 hits gets me baked and if I exceed that it's just not a fun trip. And as I know now, I am also super sensitive to DXM. Sucks I never toon a chem class in high school haha

cduval04 added 4 Minutes and 15 Seconds later...

And how do u even get ur cyp450 enzymes checked...their main role is to metablize drugs I think so what do I do say-"Doc, I want all of my cyp450 enzymes checked b/c I'm experimenting with drugs."? I don't think that would go over too well haha

Last edited by cduval04; 16-10-2011 at 18:06. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #12  
Old 16-10-2011, 19:50
JfromM JfromM is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 11-09-2011
35 y/o Male from United States
Posts: 43
JfromM is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1 Points: 80, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Were you smoking kava? Never heard of that ROA. Almost all kava caps that are purchased from healthfood stores are of low quality (even from reputable brands otherwise)
For average peeps, 5 grams is a pretty good starting point with plain leaf kratom. In your case, maybe 2.5 would work out. If you don't have a scale, a level measuring tsp. will give you that approximate amount.
Kudos for starting low with kratom, always better to be safe than sorry
  #13  
Old 19-10-2011, 22:24
cduval04 cduval04 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 06-03-2011
28 y/o Female from United States
Posts: 20
cduval04 is learning how to become a psychonaut.
Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1 Points: 101, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by JfromM View Post
Were you smoking kava? Never heard of that ROA. Almost all kava caps that are purchased from healthfood stores are of low quality (even from reputable brands otherwise)
For average peeps, 5 grams is a pretty good starting point with plain leaf kratom. In your case, maybe 2.5 would work out. If you don't have a scale, a level measuring tsp. will give you that approximate amount.
Kudos for starting low with kratom, always better to be safe than sorry
No I didn't smoke the kava haha I've never heard of that either they were capsules sold under the brand name Natrol and ha 200g of kava per cap 30mg of which were pure kavalactones-I think the bottle started w/ 30 caps in it, 20 of which I took in one single dose-and nothing. Salvia-I have no idea why I can't break through I prob just need a higher extract but I'm not so sure I wanna break through - little scared of what I might see-I know a sitter is VERY strongly recommended.

On the Kratom, when you say "plain leaf" you still are referring to the ground up powder right, not the whole leaf or even a coarsly ground b/c my Bali premium is powder (& sorry bout before I thought premium had extracts mixed in like the enhanced). I have a scale but I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it with grams. So one level tsp is 2.5g? cuz the gram just made me feel like wanted to jump out of my skin. Is there a good web page u know off hand that gives tsp to grams conversions for Kratom leaf powder?

Thanks for all the help.
  #14  
Old 20-10-2011, 00:45
FenixDelta753 FenixDelta753 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 10-03-2011
Male from United States
Posts: 486
FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.FenixDelta753 is captain of the psychonauts.
Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3 Points: 567, Level: 3
Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7% Activity: 11.7%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

I've seen several on DF here. But you can never be sure since the consistancy of the different powders will skew the weight. Not to mention of you got shoddy Kratom and it contained filler that won't do a thing for you, you'll never know the true mass.

Why don't you trust your scale? If you measure a mass that low it should be pretty accurate even if it isn't at higher masses.
  #15  
Old 20-10-2011, 13:31
ianzombie ianzombie is offline
Platinum Member & Advisor
 
Join Date: 12-06-2007
38 y/o Male from Ireland
Posts: 7,098
Blog Entries: 3
ianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond reputeianzombie is a true resource and beyond repute
Points: 21,868, Level: 21 Points: 21,868, Level: 21 Points: 21,868, Level: 21
Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0%
Re: Question about first time kratom dosing for high sensitivity individual

Quote:
Originally Posted by cduval04 View Post
On the Kratom, when you say "plain leaf" you still are referring to the ground up powder right, not the whole leaf or even a coarsly ground b/c my Bali premium is powder (& sorry bout before I thought premium had extracts mixed in like the enhanced). I have a scale but I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it with grams. So one level tsp is 2.5g? cuz the gram just made me feel like wanted to jump out of my skin. Is there a good web page u know off hand that gives tsp to grams conversions for Kratom leaf powder?

Thanks for all the help.
Plain leaf refers to anything that contains nothing but Leaf, it could be whole/crushed or Powdered, but as long as there is nothing added it is just Plain leaf.

Premium means nothing. Vendors will add words to their products to try and make them look different than other similiar products they sell or from other vendors products.

Its pretty much impossible to test every leaf, and because every batch of kratom a vendor buys from the source contains leaves from possibly thousands of different trees there is no way to state that overal the strength will be consistant.

A vendor might sell thai kratom for example under several different titles....top shelf thai, super thai, premium thai etc. but we are only taking their word that there is any significant difference.
They might have sampled a batch and found it was unusually potent, but without proper testing of all the batch it might just be a hot spot of potent leaves.

Other vendors will simply stick on a few names to try and sell old batches or batches that are below par. Something like 'Mellow' Thai or 'Relaxing Thai.

The only way to find what you like is to experiment, finding a good vendor is the most important thing. A vendor who ships from the source is best, and someone who is open about the techniques they use for picking, drying and storing the Kratom.

As for measuring with a spoon, are you using a proper measuring spoon or just any old spoon from the kitchen drawer? Spoons do not come in regulated sizes unless they are proper baking spoons, and even then as been said, the grind of the kratom powder will usually be different for most people so it is recomended that you use a scale to measure it.

A level teasoppn could be anywhere from 2 - 3.5 grams, its best not to mess around with such a difference.

Share this on:

Tags
am-2201, dose advice, dxm, ethnobotanicals, kratom

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kratom Alfa Drug Articles 24 18-04-2014 10:22

» New Threads
Ever tried this to your syrup?
Last post by Gallama
1 Replies, 20 Views
Suspected N-Isopropyl West Coast
Last post by devo420
4 Replies, 128 Views
Anxiety caused by ADHD stimulants,...
Last post by snubi
0 Replies, 1 Views
Do any of you have kids?
Last post by ak907ice
1 Replies, 82 Views
I am pretty sure he just shot up...
Last post by recoverysmurf28
20 Replies, 31,491 Views
I've been mainly just on valium...
Last post by anywherebutup
51 Replies, 2,503 Views
Extracting Codeine not CWE method
Last post by Potter
4 Replies, 912 Views
Climbing the walls
Last post by Fidget247
0 Replies, 20 Views
Adderall XR causing alcohol...
Last post by Potter
5 Replies, 148 Views
I'm Immune to Getting Addicted.
Last post by Serpentaxt
3 Replies, 68 Views
» New Wiki Articles
GHB
NET

Sitelinks: Information:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:33.


Copyright: SIN Foundation 2003 - 2014, All rights reserved