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  #1  
Old 29-09-2011, 01:41
ructions ructions is offline
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Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hi all! swim has been on Methadone for about 6 years, she was on 40mls for about 5 years & when she stopped using heroin on top of methadone she upped her daily methadone dose to 60mls.

Swim had always used heroin & methadone together, she would mostly use heroin, her methadone was there for the days when swim had no money to score or if she couldn't find any heroin to score.

Then just over 10 months ago the Big Drought hit Europe, Ireland seemed to be hit worse then anywhere else, so this is when Swim got more or less clean. Through-out this drought swim would go out to test the water approx once a month. Swim never has any problem scoring, BUT the only heroin that is available is very very weak, so Swim has not managed to get properly stoned since the start of the drought. So Swim considers herself more or less clean. Her head is not in the right frame of mind for being/staying clean, but as there is no proper heroin around she has no choice but to be clean.

So after more then 10 months i would have thought that Swim would be fairly stable on her 60mls of Methadone, but it doesn't feel that way. Swims Doctor is very happy with her & he has put me on take away, but Swim just doesn't feel right.....

Swim has always taken her Methadone at 9pm every night, but she finds lately that it doesn't hold her the full 24 hours (her Doctor said it should hold her for 36 hours) Over the last 3 months swim has been having awful night sweats & crazy nightmares. & during the day time she often feels withdrawals. When swim is in work she can be burning up with the heat, she gets so hot that there is sweat running down her back & on her face, she has to go into the toilets to use the hand dryer to dry off, & then the next minute she is freezing cold, shivering with the cold, Swim feels as though her bones are frozen with the cold. As well as this Swim gets all the other usual things that come with W.D's like yawning, eyes watering & feeling bad in general, this can all be very awkward when its happening in work, there is only so many times Swim can say she is coming down with a head cold! Swim worried that people in work are going to realize what is really wrong with her........

So what Swim can't understand is why in the last 3 months has the methadone stopped holding her? Especially now that she is stable. Everything was fine for the first 7 months that she stopped using heroin & now if all falling apart! Swim doesn't take any other drugs & she doesn't drink alcohol. In the past 60mls used to hold her no problem, at one stage 40mls held her no problem as well, so why now when Swim is doing better then ever before is the methadone not working properly?

Has Swim built up a tolerance against Methadone?

Just like everyone else when Swim started using heroin she would only need a small amount to get really really stoned, but then just like everyone else she built up a tolerance & she needed more & more heroin to get the same effect & to feel well.

So does the same thing happen with Methadone? Is it a case that as Swim body has got used to her dose of 60mls & now her body needs more to have the same effect?

I know that Swims head is not in the right frame of mind for staying clean, Swim knows that if she heard that there was proper heroin available that she would be out scoring it. But Swim is getting better & she has kind of got into a routine of not scoring, she is starting to really think hard about staying clean even when the drought ends. So when Swims head is in a better place she was hoping to start dropping her dose slowly & hopefully one day becoming totally clean! But the way Swim feels now is that she needs to up her dose rather then come down! My Doctor said that Swim can up her dose, but he hasn't given her any other advice then that. my Doctor is not much of a talker, he just wants to give Swim her script then its straight on to the next person.

Swim would really hate to have to take a higher dose then 60mls a day, & if she has to go on a higher dose now then what happens if she builds up a tolerance to her new higher dose? Will she have to up & up her dose again & again? Were would it end?

At one stage Swim though that the someone in her chemist robbing Methadone & then watering down the Methadone that was left, but i think Swim was being crazy & paronoid coz she knows a few other people who get their methadone from that chemist & they are not having any problems.

So has this ever happened to anyone else? Has anyone else become stable for months to then find that their methadone suddenly stops working as well as it used to? Swim is not gonna up her dose at this stage, she wants to come down not up!!! Methadone is a horrible drug, in some ways its nearly worse the heroin, Swim is nearly 40 now so she does not want to be on Methadone for the rest of her life. Swim would love to hear from anyone else that has had any experiences like this.

Thank you for reading my post sorry that it is so long. But this really is a problem for Swim, it just makes her wish more & more that the drought would end so she could get some proper heroin to make herself feel well, if it wasn't for these W.D's then she would be in a much better frame of mind to stay clean for good.........

Last edited by ructions; 29-09-2011 at 01:48.
  #2  
Old 29-09-2011, 01:50
Jupiter Spider Jupiter Spider is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

To give the short answer to your question, yes. Methadone does build a tolerance in the same way that heroin does. The reason they use methadone as a treatment for opiate addiction is partially due to its long period of duration, and partially due to the way the tolerance builds slowly. This slow-building tolerance is the reason that it's taken til now for the 60 ml to become insufficient.

Unfortunately, your only real option that includes staying on methadone is to increase your dose, just as you had to increase from 40 ml to 60 ml in the past. Kicking methadone may be harder than kicking dope.

I'm unfamiliar with the treatments for opiate addiction in Ireland. Do they offer anything like suboxone (buprenorphone with naloxone)?
  #3  
Old 29-09-2011, 02:11
ructions ructions is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hi Jupiter Spider Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! The only form of treatment that we are offered in Ireland to get off heroin is Methadone.

My Doctor always said that once swim became stable then she could start dropping her dose, i really wasn't prepared for having to up my dose!!!

Swim understood the reason for having to go up from 40mls to 60mls, it was because she had been using heroin with her 40mls, so when the Drought hit her body suddenly had to cope without heroin, so it made sense to her that she had to up her dose of Methadone.

But this is a shock! Swim feels like she is going backwards. Methadone has all the very same bad side effects that heroin has, but it has none of the good effects that heroin has. I was told that if i could get my methadone back down to 40mls a day with out using heroin, that then some of the nasty side effects of the methadone would start to become less & less.

The thoughts of going on a higher dose is awful, if i stick it out will it get better? Will i become stable again? Or is that just wishful thinking........ Its 2am now & i'm already starting to feel too hot & uncomfortable & i only took my methadone 5 hours ago at 9pm.

Last edited by ructions; 29-09-2011 at 02:18.
  #4  
Old 29-09-2011, 20:50
Jupiter Spider Jupiter Spider is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hmm. I did some research, and it looks like Suboxone/Subutex (buprenorphine-containing opiate addiction medication) was introduced in Ireland in 2007. I would advise that you talk to a doctor about possibly switching. Suboxone lasts longer than methadone, so you might only have to take a pill every two days or so. Also, once you've been on it for a bit your doctor can give you a month's supply at a time.

What I would think is the biggest advantage of buprenorphine preparations over methadone is that buprenorphine is commonly described as being easier to detox from than methadone. Considering your stated goal of reducing your dose over time, this would seem to make buprenorphine a better fit than methadone.

On the other hand, I do live in the United States, in an area where Suboxone is a much more common treatment for opiate dependency than methadone maintenance, so I'm not sure how difficult it would be to get a prescription for it in Ireland.

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Really helpful info! Thanx for taking the time to research it...
  #5  
Old 29-09-2011, 22:32
ructions ructions is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Thank you so much Jupiter Spider for researching treatments in Ireland for me! I'm so grateful to you for being so kind as to take the time to look into this for me!!!

I had been with the same methadone clinic since i first went onto methadone, but only last week i was moved from the methadone clinic to a private GP Doctor, the Doctor i'm seeing now has been my private GP Doctor for most of my life.

In the past when ever i asked at the clinic if there was any other treatment that i could have besides methadone i was always told a firm NO!!! The methadone clinic is a very busy place so the Doctor just wants you in & out as quick!

But now that i'm seeing a private Doctor it will give me a chance to talk to him about the possibility of a different treatment, such as Suboxone. My Private Doctor is one of the nicest people that you could ever meet, he always makes plenty of time to talk things through, so at least i am in a position to talk to my Doctor about treatments other then Methadone!!

I really am surprised to hear that Suboxone has been available in Ireland since 2007, no one over here is aware of that. I don't know a single person who is on Suboxone. Its probably a case of if you don't ask you don't get. So i'm gonna ask.....

Once again Jupiter Spider thank you so much for taking the time to look into this matter for me, & thank~you for your helpful reply!!! I will deffo have a chat with my Doctor about this & i will let you know how i get on!!! THANK~YOU!!!!
  #6  
Old 29-09-2011, 22:44
Jupiter Spider Jupiter Spider is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ructions View Post
Once again Jupiter Spider thank you so much for taking the time to look into this matter for me, & thank~you for your helpful reply!!! I will deffo have a chat with my Doctor about this & i will let you know how i get on!!! THANK~YOU!!!!
Haha, no problem. I have a lot of family in Ireland, so I kind of took a special interest in the topic. I wish you the absolute best of luck, and don't hesitate to let the board know how things go! Your experience could help other struggling Irish addicts who might also not know about alternative methods of treating their addiction.
  #7  
Old 30-09-2011, 14:23
Tony Williams Tony Williams is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

When I went from bupe to methadone the methadone worked well and I started at 40mg. After a month it weakened and basically the cravings came back. spent months on it and flushing money down the drain, I had your problem that my dose never held me for 24hr so I requested that I could 1) up the dose and 2) have a split dose so like 30mg+30mg. They would not allow such. So back to bupe - hoping they'll give me a high dose.
  #8  
Old 30-09-2011, 15:01
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hi ructions,

Just wanted to mention that 60ml is in fact a fairly low dose for maintenance, clinically speaking. It's not surprising that you are having breakthrough cravings. I'm certainly not advocating methadone as a perfect drug, and I appreciate the fact that you want to reduce not increase...but just bear in mind that your dose is pretty low - clinical guidelines in the UK for successful maintenance suggest 60-120ml. This of course is a rough guide as everyone is different and how well your dose "holds" you will depend on many things including liver function, metabolism, weight and overall health.
Suboxone may indeed be better for you, but I just wanted to add that little note regarding doses

Quote:
So back to bupe - hoping they'll give me a high dose.
Tony, remember that 'less is more' with bupe, and most people find that the therapeutic doses scripted are too much...

best wishes to you both!

Last edited by catseye; 30-09-2011 at 18:53. Reason: added detail
  #9  
Old 01-10-2011, 16:41
ructions ructions is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
Hi ructions,

Just wanted to mention that 60ml is in fact a fairly low dose for maintenance, clinically speaking. It's not surprising that you are having breakthrough cravings.
Hiya! 60mls may be a low dose, but it did a fine job for me for about 7 months. When i first stopped using heroin 60mls was fine, & in the months that followed things were still good, but then after the 7 months it all started to fall apart. I thought i'd start dropping the dose rather then going higher

But i'm deffo gonna talk to my Doctor about suboxone, i have never heard of anyone in Ireland been given it, but if you don't ask you don't get!
  #10  
Old 01-10-2011, 18:32
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ructions;1034874
But i'm deffo gonna talk to my Doctor about [AUTOLINK
suboxone[/AUTOLINK], i have never heard of anyone in Ireland been given it, but if you don't ask you don't get!
If your doctor isn't able or willing to help you switch to buprenorphine (Suboxone/Subutex) perhaps contacting someone like the Ana Liffey Drug Project would be useful? They are a brilliant Ireland-based harm reduction/needle exchange programme and they will no doubt have some suggestions regarding treatment for you
Good luck!

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provides good info for the OP
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Old 01-10-2011, 23:06
ructions ructions is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Yeah i've have been to the Ana Liffey a good few times, they are really nice down there, but they sent me back to the methadone clinic. I have been with the Methadone clinic for the last 6 years, but only this month i have been moved on to a Private GP Doctor. I will deffo have a chat with my new Doctor about it. Thanx a million for all the advice!
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Old 02-10-2011, 00:04
Tony Williams Tony Williams is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catseye View Post
Hi ructions,

Tony, remember that 'less is more' with bupe, and most people find that the therapeutic doses scripted are too much...

best wishes to you both!
I think that's for rec. users of bupe - redosing or dosing more gives only side effects but in bupe mt more mg should cover wd's better. He's used today (only a bit though on 8mgsub+8mgsnorted)
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:16
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Williams View Post
I think that's for rec. users of bupe - redosing or dosing more gives only side effects but in bupe mt more mg should cover wd's better. He's used today (only a bit though on 8mgsub+8mgsnorted)
Don't want to hijack someone else's thread here, so I'm happy to talk about this further via PM
Just want to clarify though that I'm not referring to recreational use - many people on bupe maintenance find that ~4mg is plenty to hold them without wd's or cravings. Of course it varies from person to person according to body weight, metabolism, tolerance, habit prior to bupe induction, etc.
Many researchers, practitioners and even a bupe rep for a pharmaceutical company whom I know are aware of this and will suggest/scipt lower than the 8mg clinical threshold.
But as I said, your milage may vary, and it may be a dose of 8mg+ that makes you most comfortable!
</end thread derailment >

ructions, best of luck chatting with your doc - it's a shame that Ana Liffey sent you back to the methadone clinic and didn't mention bupe
Please do let us know how you make out, ok?
Best wishes...
  #14  
Old 03-10-2011, 17:39
TheBigBadWolf TheBigBadWolf is nu online
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hi ructions,

Time now for me to chime in...

The reason noone did talk about bupe to you might be that you are on a fairly high dose of methadone now. To switch fron 'done to bupe the docs in my country want the user to be on 10 mg of methadone, better less. The best way to swap would be to be off methadone for three or better four days, which would mean a lot of time for you to spend in methadone withdrawal.
As you are working I can't see this is an option for you.
You say that for seven months your dose of 40ml was enough to hold you, after you quit heroin. Did you have a general check-up in this time? do you have information about the state of your health?

There is a thing called "fast metabolizers", people who "burn faster" than average, this is a well-known fact in methadone maintenance, these people should get their dose split to hold them. Fast metabolism can origin from a couple of reasons, you can read on it just by googling "fast metabolism".

I'm not saying you are one of them, but get it checked out.
Other thing is it could come from normal tolerance building. A pity if you have to up your dose, but as you now know you're on a pretty mediocre dose a bit of upping can't do much harm.

Methadone maintenance is a long-time therapy and you should face to be on it for about four or five years to come down, once you are stable.

kind regards and lots of positive vibes sent to you from

TBBW
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:00
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Hi BigBadWolf! Thanx for your reply! Yeah going a few days without Methadone sounds a bit scary, but if it really was gonna be a good solution then i could probably take a few days off work, its sounds like something that i would want to have plan ahead for if i was gonna do it.

I will google fast metabolism & see what it says, thanks for the advice!!! Its crazy to think that it could be 5 or more years of being stable before i can get away from Methadone!!! If we only knew all this before we got into heroin it might have stopped us getting in so deep!!!

Thanx to everyone for their kind replys! I was kind'a of expecting a few more people to say that they had experienced the same problem with their methadone dose, but maybe its not that much of a common thing? Trust me to have such an odd reaction to the Methadone!!!
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Old 16-10-2011, 14:43
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Swim might be a little late, and he's too not sure if any of this was mentioned already, but here it goes..

Swim thinks the reason that your Methadone isn't holding you that well is because you are taking it at night.

Swim isn't sure if you stay awake all night after taking it, but if you are going to sleep a couple hours after taking your dose, this could cause some if the Methadone to be lost overnight. Swim has read that while we are in a deep sleep, that period is when our body removes most of it's wastes. So as you sleep, a lot of the drug is going to be getting removed from your body. And as a result, waking up in the day and not taking your dose until 9pm in the night, can leave a person feeling not as well as they would if they were to take their dose in the am, and stay up for the next 12 hours or more of the dose until they go to bed.

Swim thinks you should think about taking the Methadone in the am if you want it to hold you better. And having to sacrifice a little sleep at first might be worth for you in the long run.

Swim has also read of someone who suggested to an individual who was weaning down, to try giving up some sleep if he wanted more of the Methadone to be in his system, and to not feel as sick throughout. So he suggested trying to sleep for lets say, four hours a night instead of his usual eight. Swim guesses this individual had to pick what he wanted more, a good nights sleep, or to feel less sick from the wean. He would probably get used to the less amount of sleep after a while anyways, and it would most likely be worth it to and help during the wean.

And as for the tolerance question, it really varies from person to person.

Some people metabolize their dose faster than others. And not everyones body processes it the same either.

Swim is on Methadone himself and his tolerance hasn't really changed since he went on it. He has been weaning down for a while now from 90mgs a day, and is now down to 40mgs a day. After being on 40mgs a day for about a month now, Swim feels great and seems to feel better and better as time passes. Instead of feeling worse and worse and needing to always up his dose. Swim has been on it for a little over a year, and he has never had a problem with this since.

This is one of the reasons Swim likes the Methadone. When Swim was using the other short-acting Opiates, he would always have to keep upping his dose to get the same effect. But with the Methadone, it seems to be a different story. And he is actually able to lower his dose and still be held fine. He finds with the Methadone, he doesn't have to keep upping his dose like he always did with the short-acting Opiates either. One of the reasons he thinks this is though, is because with the sort-acting Opiates Swim was always chasing a high. But with the Methadone, Swim isn't really trying to get high.

Swim has even read of somebody who said they were still held at 1mg of Methadone!

Swim is staying on his dose of Methadone for an extra month this time around to relax and take a break from all of the weaning. And he doesn't find his tolerance ever seems to go up. Instead the more time that passes, the more Swims dose seems to hold him.

Some people metabolize their dose faster than others as well. And because of this, for some people a split dose is needed.

Age can also be a factor in how our body metabolizes it. Some younger people go through their dose faster due to a fast metabolism.

Swim would recommend considering a split dose.. or even just taking the Methadone in the morning when you first wake up, instead of upping your dose right away.

Swim has also read that pure grapefruit juice can make an indiviual feel their Methadone more. The thing with this though, is that it makes you metabolize your Methadone faster than normal. Even just eating grapefruit can do the same thing. Swim's not sure if it could effect your tolerance later on down the road, and he doesn't use it himself. This might or might not work for you.

Also, try and watch what you are putting into your body as well, because certain things(like the grapefruit, etc.) can interact with the Methadone. Which can cause your dose to act differently than it's supposed to. Not all of the interactions will have a good result in the end, so it's wise to be very careful in this area.

Here is a good site that has a pretty detailed list of things that can interact with your Methadone: http://www.medicalassistedtreatment....session*id*val*
If you're taking any of these things Swim would adivse you to reconsider or use caution. Some of these things can be the reason why your dose seems to not be holding you very well, and can make your Methadone act differently than it is supposed to.

High enough doses of caffeine also seemed to effect Swims dose negatively. However, Swim thinks he is sensitive to caffeine because this isn't very heard of. Swim found that even having one cup of regular coffee made Swim feel pretty crappy and sometimes woud make his dose feel different, and not a 'good different' either.

Swim has also heard of a supplement called 'Milk Thistle', making a dose of Methadone stronger and last even longer than usual. Swim read of an individual that started taking Milk Thistle with his dose while he was weaning down, to make things easier. It was reported that it helped him throughout his time weaning down quite a bit.

The supplement is for the liver and is supposed to make it pretty healthy.

Apparently Milk Thistle involves the same liver enzyme that the Methadone uses. It is said to make the liver breakdown the Methadone slower, which in return would make the body get more of the Methadone dose than it normally would(less would be lost). This can be helpful for some people who aren't being held by their dose. But at the same time it is said that mixing the two can also be very dangerous, and in some cases can even cause OD's! So if considering using this to make your dose work better, Swim would suggest using extreme caution*. Small doses of the Milk Thistle are supposed to work as well. So if considering, maybe try taking less than the bottle recommends(always start out small), and be as safe as possible when mixing the two.

Swim was thinking about trying the Milk Thistle with his dose the next time he weans down, to see if it would help him along the way. The only thing he's not so sure about is if it will effect his dose in a negative way afterwards. See, Swim wasn't planning to keep taking it with his dose forever. He would only be taking it with his Methadone for the first two weeks or so on the new dose. He doesn't know if when he stops taking it, that things would just return to "normal", and his body would just break down the dose like it normally would. Or if adding this supplement to his Methadone for that couple of weeks would change his tolerance in a negative way afterwards. He doesn't want to start taking it if when he stops taking it, he feels withdrawals from taking the Methadone alone. All because he took the Milk Thistle with the Methadone for that couple of weeks. If this was the case, Swim thinks it would be much more wise to just get used to the new dose on his own and get over the mild uncomfotable feeling in the beginning naturally.. Instead of having to get over more withdrawals after using the Milk Thistle for that couple of weeks anyways. There would be no point in prolonging the inevitable. So this is why he's never tried the combination himself. He wouldn't be trying to get a high, he simply would be trying to make the weaning process easier.

Swim has heard of people reporting that they got withdrawals after stopping to use certain potentiators with their Methadone for a certain period of time, when they started to take their Methadone alone again. So this is why Swim started to wonder what the Milk Thistle would do, after using it with the Methadone for a certain period of time. However, not all of the potentiators actions on the dose are exactly the same, so this has always left Swim pretty stumped and unsure.

It would be pretty crappy if someone was forced to take the supplement with their Methadone forever just to feel "normal". Swim doesn't know if this is the case with the grapefruit juice either. So if considering any of these options, please use caution.

If you don't already, try taking a Multi-Vitamin/Mineral daily as well. This can help you feel a lot better and is good for you to. Methadone can prevent the body from absorbing a lot of the nutrients and vitamins that it normally would, so it is wise to make sure you are providing yourself with certain vitamins and eating right as well. Swim uses the Centrum brand multi-vitamin. He likes the Centrum brand the best, and it actually has most of the ingrediants that is in a vitamin specifically ment for methadone patients, which Swim will talk about right away.

Some methadone clinics sell a vitamin just for the Methadone called 'Vitadone'. This is said to help with a lot of the side efects from the Methadone and help the dose work better as well.. A lot of the stuff in it though can also be found in certain Muli-Vitamins which can be found at most stores. So Swim just takes his Centrum brand Multi-Vitamin daily instead. And it seems to interact with his Methadone just fine(not negatively).

Here are the ingrediants in the 'Vitadone':

Supplement Facts
Serving Size 4 Tablets

Vitamin-a (as beta-carotene)12,500 IU 2500%
VitaminC (as ascorbic acid) 600 IU 1000%
Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) 400IU 100%
Vitamin E (as d-alphatocopheryl acetate 200IU 667%
Vitamin B-1 (as thiamine mononitrate 50mg 3333%
Vitamin B-2 (as riboflavin ) 25mg 1471%
Niacin (as niaciamide) 95mg 475%
Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxine hcl) 60mg 3000%
Folic Acid 400mcg 100%
Vitamin B-12 (as cyanocobalamin 150mcg 2500%
Biotin 150mcg 50%
Pantothonic Acid (ass calcium panto.) 200mg 2000%
Calcium (As carbonate) 250mg 25%
Iodine (from kelp) 75mcg 50%
Magnesium ( as oxide) 250mg 63%
Zinc ( as amino acid chelate) 15mg 100%
Selenium (as aminoacid chelate) 100mcg 142%
Copper (as amino acid chelate) 1mg 50%
Manganese (as amino acid chelate)10mg 500%
Chromium (as amino acid Chelate) 100mcg 83%
Molybdenum (as amino acid chelate) 25mcg 33%
Potassium (as amino acid chelate) 50mcg 1%

Curcumin 120mg
Choline Bitratrate 100mg
Inositol 50mg
Citrus Bioflavonoids 50mg
Para-Aminobenzoic acid 25mg
Betaine Hydrochloride 30mg
Rutin 50mg
Vanduim 12.5mcg
Silcon (As sea vegetation) 1.2mg
Coenzyme Q10 15mg
Bioperine 8mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 100mg

Proprietary Blend 1450mg
Consisting of cinnamon powder, L-lysine hydrochloride, L-Arginine Hydrochloriide, L-Glutamine, and L-cysteine Hydrochloride

Swim has found that when upping his dose in the past, sometimes it actually could make things feel worse and increase the side-effects for Swim. When Swim first started his Done, he just kept upping and upping his dose at every chance, expecting it to feel even better each time. And when he got to the higher doses, thing seemed to actually feel worse. The sweating was absolutely rediculous for Swim. And it made Swim not have enough energy or motivation as well. He also would sleep away his day sometimes, and overall just didn't like the feeling it gave him compared to now.

Swim actually feels the best he ever has on his dose now a days, at 40mgs a day. He doesn't sweat nearly as much, he has more of a sex drive than he ever has since starting the Methadone, he's got more energy than before and he loves to do things now to. He feels pretty great about things.

It was typical addict behaviour for Swim to think that uppig his dose would make things better back than though. But he has found that the 40mgs a day feels WAY better than the 90mgs a day did.

And like he said before, his tolerance never really goes up either. The longer he waits, the more he gets used to things. And now(a month after his last wean), Swim is completely used to his new dose and feels awesome about things. He knows the extra month on the new dose is gonna be a really good one, and he's very happy with things the way they are right now. Hopefully things stay good.

Swim also wanted to add that he has heard of quit a few problems from people on Suboxone and many of them wishing they never started the stuff. No offense to anyone on the medication at all, but if you are considering switching, please be careful and do your research first. Suboxone hasn't even been out as long as Methadone has, and it is still pretty new.. Meaning they don't really know everything about the drug yet. I have heard of users complaining afterwards saying that they think it changed their brain chemistry, and that when they went back to other Opiates later on they didn't feel the same, and it no longer would work for them. So they were forced to go back on Suboxone months and months down the road. Some say weaning down at first is easier, but I have heard of problems months later that come to the surface. And I have heard of people feeling like they just don't get better through time as well. The ceiling dose can also cause problems for many. Swim has also read of people complaining that their Suboxone stopped working after being on it for a year or so. And he has also read that while using it, it doesn't completely hold you sometimes and can feel like a very mild withdrawal. Again, no offense to anyone on Suboxone AT ALL.. maybe your experience is different. This is just some of the problems that Swim has heard about from others. Swim wanted to put out a warning.

Swim thinks you should try some other options before considering switching to Subs. And who knows, maybe you will start getting held just right on your Methadone and things will turn around for you. Swim wouldn't switch to Sub, but that's just him.

Sometimes all it takes is a little bit of time to get held 'just right', when your dealing with Methadone, and feel "normal". Especially for people just starting out on their Methadone, it'll take some time to get completely stablized. But with a little patience it can really pay off, and you would be surpirsed at how good the medication can start working for ya.

This is just Swims experience.

Every indivual is different.

Hopefully some of the above information can help.

Swim hopes you feel better and start getting held properly by your dose.

Best of luck!!

Post Quality Evaluations:
great post with additional personal experience that can probably be useful to the OP . Thanx for that good piece of work
wow, very detailed and informative post - well done
So much good advice!!! Thank-you!!! :)
Another excellent good advice-filled post from natey.

Last edited by natey7; 04-03-2012 at 04:22.
  #17  
Old 16-10-2011, 16:42
&rew &rew is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Just wanted to point one thing. Methadone is a (pro)drug it means that after passing metabolize loop methadone N-demethylates to (N-nor)-methadone (or am i wrong and it turns to imine?) which is a way stronger that methadone. Too bad that this normethadone very fast cycling into cycloimine (EDDP) which is also more potent then methadone. The reason why user fills ok during methadone concentration minimums is this EDDP. Usual the reason why user feels not well is low dose. But also it might be because user's liver have disorders (and it is true for average ex-junkie): methadone removed from body without N-demethylation or very small quantity of methadone demethylated to EDDP. It might be solved by increasing dose or by normalization of liver functioning.

Probably trying liver functions stimulant might help, it'll increase concentration of N-demethylation inductors that liver produces. Then concentration of EDDP also increases. One might try homeopathy like milk thistle, it normalizes liver functioning and might work in case of problems with liver.

&amp;rew added 6 Minutes and 48 Seconds later...

One, probably, might ask for taking EDDP concentration test between re-dosing to diagnose this problem. To be honest SWIM have no idea how this problem solves in 'done's clinics. Maybe they has easier ways.

Last edited by &rew; 16-10-2011 at 16:42. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #18  
Old 16-10-2011, 18:10
ructions ructions is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by natey7 View Post
Swim might be a little late, and he's too not sure if any of this was mentioned already, but here it goes.

Swim thinks the reason your Methadone isn't holding you that well is because you are taking it at night.

Swim isn't sure if you stay awake all night after taking it, but if you are going to sleep a couple hours after getting your dose, Swim has read that when we sleep that period is when our body removes most of it's waste. So as you sleep, a lot of the drug is going to be getting removed from your body. And as a result, waking up in the day and not taking you dose until 9pm in the night, can leave a person feeling not as well as they would if they were to take their dose in the am, and stay up for the next 12 hours or more of their dose until they go to bed.


Hopefully some of the above information can help.

Swim hopes you feel better and start getting held properly by your dose.
Natey 7, what can i say? Thank you so much for such an amazing response! I am honestly overwhelmed that someone would go to so much trouble & take so much time to advise me! & you have giving me some amazing advice! It all makes perfect sense!

The reason that i have always taken my methadone so late is because i used to have to pick up daily from the chemist after work, but since i got clean due to the heroin drought i am now on weekly take away, so there is no reason why i can't start taking my dose in the morning. That makes so much sense now that you have explained it. I also find it very hard to wake up for work in the morning, i could sleep for hours if i had the time! So maybe that is also because i'm taking my dose at night~time! Its something that i would never have thought of, but yes i can clearly see form what you have said that there would be many benefits of taking my dose in the morning!

Also i will deffo try the grapefruit juice, i love grapefruit juice! I i think the vitamins would be a good idea, i never have much energy & i have problems with my teeth & all sorts of aches & pains, so vitamins probably would help, thank you for all the info on vitamins!

I really am blown away by you kind & informative post, you have given me more info in your post then my Doctor has given me in the last 5 years! In-fact you have given me so much info that i'm gonna read through it all again & take a few notes down.

So thank you so so much Natey7, it really means a lot to me that someone took so much time to help & advise me! In-fact thank~you to everyone on this thread for all the helpful responses!
  #19  
Old 17-10-2011, 14:01
natey7 natey7 is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

No problem at all ructions!!

Swim's glad you appreciate the information so much

Swim has heard of many patients on Methadone bringing their grapefruit juice with them to their clinics and hiding it in a coffee mug so it looks just like coffee. Very sneaky

You migt want to try taking your dose in the am for a week or so before considering the grapefruit. You might start getting held perfectly by your dose and wont even need the grapefruit.

Swim doesn't mix his with grapefruit juice and gets held great!!

Swim hopes taking your dose in the morning makes your situation better. He has a feeling it will.

You might be a little uncomfortable the first night(without), until you first get your dose in the am. Because you'd be waiting from 9pm, when you usually would take it(24 hours from your last dose), until the next morning to start taking it than instead(which would be more than 24 hours from your last dose, depending on how you do it Swim guesses). But once you take it in the morning that first day, it should than last you until the next morning from than on(a full 24 hours). And you will probably find that you will get held a lot better throughout your days than you have been. And it will certainly be worth that little bit of time that you had to wait from 9pm the night before, until the next morning, the first time(when you start taking your dose in the am).

And it really does help a lot that you have takehomes as well.

If you don't already, you should brush and floss your teeth at least twice a day. Also, using a mouthwash WITHOUT alcohol in it is a good thing to do as well. The alcohol can actually make your mouth more dry afterwards, which is actually what causes the teeth problems with Methadone users(dry mouth). 'Bitoene' is a really good one. Also, try and make sure to have regular Dentist appointments(twice a year or more). Another thing you could do is rinse your mouth out after taking your dose of methadone each day with water. As well as rinsing your mouth with water after each meal. This is all very good for your teeth. You could also drink your sugared drinks through a straw to avoid any contact with your teeth. And make sure to drink sips of water(at least) throughout the day, to make up for the lack of saliva created by the Methadone. Chewing sugar-free gum can stimulate saliva production as well, which well help prevent a dry mouth. And also make sure you get lots of calcium in your body each day. This will help keep your bones and teeth healthy. You can take a calcium supplement in the morning and drink enough milk throughout the day if you choose. Swim has read of people reporting that their Methadone ended up causing them to have a calcium depletion, so it's very wise to make sure you get enough calcium in your body each day.

Swim does all of the above things to prevent any teeth problems associated with Methadone, and he find it all very helpful.

Thank you very much for being so appreciative! Swim takes that as a big complement

Swim's really glad he could help

Best of luck!!

Last edited by natey7; 17-10-2011 at 14:37.
  #20  
Old 26-01-2012, 22:40
kekemi kekemi is offline
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Re: Can you build up a tolerance against your daily methadone dose?

I can relate to that tolerance as my girl was fine and stable on 60 Mg of methadone last year, then went to suboxone, then to heroin and almost 7 months later, started back on methadone, and didnt even get stable at 110 Mg. She weighs 96 lbs, by the way.

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