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  #1  
Old 26-09-2011, 18:45
fizojizo fizojizo is offline
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Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi all,

I quit suboxone the 15th of Sept. after being on doses of 12 mg - 4 mg each day over the course of the last year and a half. I was prescribed by my new pain management group oxycodone 30mg every four to six hours as needed, etc...

I waited roughly until the 21st of Sept. to dose my first 30mg tab, as I didn't want to chance feeling sick, etc.. from the remaining suboxone in my system over the last year or so. I took the 30mg tab oral that morning without it being crushed, snorted, chewed, etc.. and didn't feel anything?

I was somewhat disappointed as I didn't get any kind of euphoric rush or pain relief at all. Since this episode, I've been experimenting by crushing and taking a 30mg tab without any luck as well! Hell, I've even gone as far as snorting one that I've never done before still without no effects...? I've gone as far as taken 2, 3, 4 tabs at once and still haven't had any type of effect at all!!

Has anyone ever experienced these types of effects after being on suboxone and then switching back over to their opiate of choice? I'm starting to believe that subs have nuked my receptors to some extent that I'm unable to catch a buzz to any extent much less help with my back pain relief ?!?!

I'm due back to the Doc in two weeks from now and going to ask him about this situation. The last thing I want to do is ask for an increase in mg intake as I've just begun seeing this new pain management group.

BTW, in the past before going on subs, I would take 1 30mg oxycodone and be blasted so to speak. Now, nothing, zippo, null factor zero for effects... I can't see the blocking effects of bupe to have compounded and lasted this long can I? Maybe I'm wrong and this is a long term compounded effect, or has bupe destroyed my receptors???

Please let me know if anyone has experienced this situation before and what to do? Thanks for all your input in advanced concerning this strange issue. Does anyone think that more potent is key vs. more of same substance?

To sum up what I think that has happened is Suboxone has raised my tolerance to levels that are off the chart and now I haven't been brave enough to test the potent vs. more theroy. Sorry for the constant babbling.

Peace everyone,

Fizo
  #2  
Old 29-09-2011, 04:02
Marmadukemark Marmadukemark is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

The half-life of the buprenorphine in Suboxone is quite long (20 - 100 hours), and tightly binds to the opioid receptors making it difficult to penetrate with other opioids. Bup. also increases tolerance to opioids.

Common sense tells me that six days is not long considering your 1.5 years of Suboxone. There's lots of good info on this site regarding Suboxone.

Post Quality Evaluations:
spot on! excellent reply with correct information
  #3  
Old 03-10-2011, 14:36
fizojizo fizojizo is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Thanks Marmadukemark, you're not kidding about the half-life one bit. I purchased some Bupe test strips over this weekend and I still showed positive for this chemical in my urine. I would have thought that the Bupe would be out of my system by now being the 1st of Oct. that I did the test. I suppose this goes to show just how long the bupe stacks and compounds over the months and months of use. I'll keep you all posted as soon as the Bupe clears my system as I purchased about five test kits to try over the next couple of weeks or so.

Peace,

FizoJizo
  #4  
Old 11-10-2011, 16:25
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Fizo,

No one knows the answer to this very important question here. Many people will tell you this, that or another thing. It's all theory. Everything anyone will tell you is a theory based on the little we know about Bupe. I love the younger generations, but they especially, like to jump in and state answers so unequivocally that you believe it. But no one knows.

Like you, I suspect long term damage to the opiate receptors. But now hear this. We know very little about receptors. The latest thing I read was they are proteins. I thought they were cells. So now I have no idea what they are. One thing seems clear. Bupe changes how other opiates will effect you for a long, very long, time. OK? Now, I think, but I am uncertain, that after about 14 months without Bupe, my very last script of Oxy 30's, I started to feel cravings come back. Not the buzz, but the cravings for more and more. One good thing is you probably have no cravings, and I always found Oxy to have the worst cravings of any opiates. It is nice to not feel cravings, especially when you take these damn things for pain, as I do.

You should be getting pain relief, even though you will need 2 - 4 times the amount to get it. Don't take it all at once. You can still OD and die. Put at least 1 hour between the pills. Btw, are you taking the Immediate Release Oxy's, or are you taking OxyContin? The latter is a time release tab and would explain why you don't feel pain relief.

I agree, don't ask the doc for more Oxy. You will be seen as a drug seeker. Instead tell him what is happening, and let him decide what to do. Maybe you will get greater pain relief from Morphine. I didn't, and Morphine made me suicidal.

Is the issue just pain, or is it withdrawal symptoms too? I found that trying to keep the withdrawal symptoms away took more Oxy than the pain relief did.

Last edited by Photobug; 20-11-2011 at 01:50. Reason: reworded post
  #5  
Old 19-11-2011, 22:12
billyrafeeky billyrafeeky is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Your receptors will recover, follow this advice and it'll happen more quickly. Yes, after two weeks you still have Bupe in your system if you've been on it for 1.5 years, however if you weaned down to 4 mg a day before stopping, then 2 weeks later taking 120 mg of oxycodone would be enough to compete with the small amount of bupe in your system. So I'm pretty sure the problem here is your high tolerance from being on bupe for 1.5 years...and even if your receptors are/were still blocked by the bupe, you still have a huge tolerance that plays a big role in what you're experiencing.

My solution is, limit your opiate use as much as possible at the moment. One 30 mg a day, swallowed so it lasts longer, should be the max limit if you want to fix your receptors. But you want to keep weaning down your dose. Keep lowering it until you don't have to take any without having horrible withdrawals. We'll use this small chart I made (using a reliable Bupe to Oxy converter) for a reference:

4 mg Sub under the tongue = 50-100 mg Oxycodone (oral)
2 mg Sub = 25-50 mg Oxy
1 mg Sub = 12.5-25 mg Oxy

So as you can see, to lower your tolerance from 4 mg Sub a day you'd have to take less than 50 mg Oxy a day. You want to keep lowering it until you're only taking a quarter pill a day (7.5 mg Oxy = ~.3-.6 mg Sub) then from there jump off. Wait 3-5 days between each ween...so maybe 30 mg for 5 days, 15 for 5 days, 7.5 for 5 days, then you're clean...15 days of weaning, and add an extra 5 days for detox, so 20 days total in this plan. Then, you should be able to rail an oxy or two and feel a rush and pain relief. If not, wait another 5 days, repeat...but I think the 20 day play will work.

Also, research DXM for preventing opiate tolerance. Personally I've used low doses with opiates (60 mg) and it not only seems to lower the rate of which my tolerance develops, but it also enhances the opiate's effects directly. When doing this you're supposed to use a lower opiate dose than usual as a precaution, but if it's true that 120 mg had no effect on you, then 30 mg Oxy plus 60 mg DXM would be safe if you're a healthy adult who has no ill reactions to low doses of DXM. Again, research it...it would help you a lot in this 20 day plan.

Whether or not you use my plan or anything similar, please let us know what happens! This is a very interesting experience and I'd love to add it to my brain's collection of case references!

To Photobug - You said "after about 14 months without Bupe, my very last script of Oxy 30's, I started to feel cravings come back. Not the buzz, but the cravings for more and more". I don't get what you're saying...after 14 months without Bupe, you were on Oxy, and you weren't getting a buzz but you were getting cravings for more? I think that's what you're saying, but I'm not sure...
  #6  
Old 20-11-2011, 01:40
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Yeah Billy, that was what I said. The only thing you said that matches up with my experience is when I first tried to switch from Bupe to Percocet, I needed between 100 - 150 mg of Oxy to feel OK. What feeling OK means is no withdrawal symptoms (wds) and no pain. I now know what happened back then. At least I'm pretty sure. I developed Opioid Induced Hyperalgesia and what used to be minor back pains suddenly become immense back pains. I had been taking pure Buprenorphine, meaning Name Brand Subutex for 5 years. I used to take 5 - 8 mg a day and mostly it was 5. When the OIH developed the doc I had didn't know what it was. I am told OIH is a relatively new theory in the pain field and so many docs are not aware of it yet, or back in 2009. So I was on 5 - 8 mg a day of Bupe and my doc gave me the 10 mg Percs. He said take 4 a day. But I needed 2 just to feel it was in me, and then it worse off very quickly. In 2 hours I needed more. There were 2 issues. One was the pain, but the other was the almost constant wds. The wds was worse than the pain. And let me reiterate, I did not feel any buzz or any of the characteristic high that Oxy is so well known for. So the Percs ran out in a week or so and I went back on Bupe. This all started in Nov 2009. By Jan 2010 I made the doc understand that I was running out of Percs too soon so he switched me to Roxicodone 15. But the following month I was up to the Roxi 30. Before very long, maybe 6 months, I was taking 300 mg a day and still running out. So he also gave me MsContin. I was supposed to take some of both but MsContin made me sleepy and lazy so I couldn't do hardly anything, plus depressed. While Oxy made me have a bit of pep and energy, and not very depressed. On MsContin I felt suicidal and on Oxy not too much suicidal. So I tried to just take Oxy but he couldn't give me enough to last the month. Towards the end of the year I was very messed up in my mind. So trying to remember exactly what happened is hard. But I am sure I never felt the kind of high from Oxy that I did before I ever took Bupe. And I felt no high at all from the MsContin. But I also noticed I didn't have the intense cravings for Oxy I always used to get. However, the last month I had Oxy I think I did feel cravings when it ran out. But it's hard to be certain because I never had any again. My doc retired and no other doc would take me with a 300 mg a day dependency. I then spent most of the next 3 months in wds. I had about 30 mg of old Bupe but it wasn't Name Brand and it didn't work well at all. I had some Nucynta, and then I found a doc who gave me some Methadone but not enough for the month. So I was then in wds again. Finally I couldn't take it anymore, the constant wds, so I came back to Bupe. But in that whole 12 - 14 months I never felt the kind of high I remember getting from all opiates. I also couldn't get a buzz from alcohol, and I still can't. But I'm back on Bupe. I'm 59 and I don't know if my brain can ever heal from all this Bupe. For 20 years or so the Medical profession almost never used Bupe, not until it was made into Suboxone. Now I know why.

The medical profession denies what I'm saying and is therefore not even studying this phenomenon. I don't expect them to study the loss of the ability to feel high, whether it be to other opiates or to alcohol. But I would expect them to conduct animal experiments and human studies on this astronomical resistance that forms to other opiates. But if I'm right, and all this is permanent or super long lasting, then they will have an ethical dilemma facing them, to continue using Suboxone. And the use of Suboxone to treat pain victims who have an opiate dependency has grown tremendously. Originally Suboxone was only supposed to be for Heroin addicts, no one else was to get it. But many docs felt sorry for us pain victims that became opiate dependent through no fault of our own, and so they gave us Sub too. Nowadays the use of Sub is so common place that even if you have a 6 Vicodin a day dependency they put you on Suboxone. But you then can no longer feel an opiate or alcohol high, and you get a tremendous resistance to all other opiates. And they're doing this to ppl on just Vicodin. Well, I was on just Vicodin. I was on 12 a day, but it was only Vicodin. If I would have known all this was going to happen to me, I may have never taken it.

I hope I answered your inquiry.

**************************

As a PS to all that I want you to know I see what you're saying. You think that 4 mg of Bupe would be the equivalent of about 100 mg of Oxy so of course the person will need that much. I hope you're right. But why is it ppl who took Bupe can't get an alcohol high? And how could it be that even after 12 months without Bupe I still wasn't feeling high from 300 mg of Oxy a day? I knew I wouldn't feel the high for a while but I thought after a few months I would get the high again, and I never really did. It was strange because MsContin made me feel so crappy that when I got the next Oxy script it made me feel a lot better, but it wasn't the high I remember. I never felt that warm cozy feeling all over my body that I used to feel from Opiates. Billy, I really hope you're right and I'm wrong. Try and find someone who has been off Bupe at least 6 months who was also on it over 1 year, and ask that person if he/she has had a reason to take a pain pill or had any drinks, and what did they feel? I can't find anyone. I have only found other ppl who went from Sub to pain pills and have had the same experience as me. A super high resistance and no buzz at all. But I can't find anyone who was on Bupe and now off Bupe who took a pain pill or had some drinks. If you find out anything feel free to send me a private message, because I don't come here much. I was sent an email telling me you replied to this question otherwise I would not have known. And again, I hope you are right.
  #7  
Old 20-11-2011, 18:49
fizojizo fizojizo is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Thank you both Billy and Photobug. It's been about 2 months since I've posted back with some news related to all this discussion. I've had some issues with the high tolerance thing. For example, the first month going back to oxy 30's from being on about 4mg a day on bupe was not good. I started out taking the prescribed amount which was 1 every 4 to 6 hours. I'm prescribed 160 30's and 60 15's for breakthrough pain. Needless to say the first month went pretty good. I ran out of meds about 4 days before my next doc appt. I was able to maintain without wd's for about a day and a half and then complete wd's. I had some left over bupe so I dosed about 1 to 2 mg to stay out of wd's. After seeing the doc I told him about this issue of running low and that my tolerance seemed to be very high and that the meds were not helping so much. He kind of blew it off and said to let him know if it happened again... I was prescribed the same dose counts again but this time I blew through my script in 2 weeks. Needless to say, I've got a supply from when I was on bupe, so I've been taking 2 to 3mg's daily since I ran out. I've not been back to the doc since. I was due to go to my doc last week but got scared to go back since I think the doc is going to drop me, etc... I did talk the nurse since then and I told her my whole story. She was very nice about the whole thing. She said to come in next time and explain to the doc and that he would try putting me on something like dilaudid. I asked her about the drug, Opana. She said that he also writes this script as well. Anyone every tried this drug? So the 50,000 dollar question is, what should I do? I've read the cost of Opana is extremely high but I've got a copay of 25.00 for all named brand meds. I just hate to chase my tolerance around like this, as I'm afraid that I'll build up one evil tolerance and will be out of control. Sometime I wish I could just take a magic pill that would reset all brian receptors,, etc... (Ibogaine anyone?) Thanks again for all the support and help. Peace, Fizo
  #8  
Old 20-11-2011, 21:02
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hey Fizo,

I am not at all sure Ibogaine can reset your receptors. But beyond that do you really want to take a LSD type trip at 40? I'm pretty sure Ibogaine is very similar to LSD. And then I heard after about 6 months the opiate addiction comes back. But for me, I reached an age where the last thing I wanted to do was blow my mind again with LSD. Even if you have a good trip on Ibogaine you won't feel the same as you did before the trip. And there's no way of knowing what will be changed and in what way. But it's your life.

I think you need to stop taking the Bupe. I never had Opana, but I heard it's another of the opiates that makes you want to abuse it. I had Dilaudid and a little was fine but a little too much made me extremely tired, And I needed a little too much to cover my tolerance. I'm coming to realize that I don't do well on Morphine or the other opiates that are closely related to Morphine. I feel better on Oxycodone and Hydrocodone. But after a long time I still get depressed and messed up in my mind.

I realize you have a pain problem. I do too. But I thought you wanted to see if your tolerance would ever go down? Actually, mine never did. Billy may have a point because when I went off 5 - 8 mg a day of Bupe I needed 100 - 150 mg a day of Oxycodone. So maybe that was just an equivalency dose. However, I didn't feel the usual opiate high and I didn't get the cravings Oxy always caused. I just HOPE Billy is right about all this, but so far there is no evidence to support his conclusions that the extremely high tolerance is just an equivalency dose. If it is then the doc's should be fine with writing scripts big enough to cover the equivalency and I don't think they are. Some where on the Internet is an equivalency chart that includes Buprenorphine. If you google Narcotic Equivalency charts, Buprenorphine you should find it. If I was you I'd find out what the equivalency of Dilaudid and Opana is before going back to your doc. And use your old dose of Bupe, not the 2 or 3 mg you take now.

From what you're telling us you aren't looking to abuse the opiates and you aren't. If so, go talk to your doc and tell him in a very honest way what Bupe has done to you. Just be very honest. Most of us have an ability to know when someone is being completely honest. Psychopathic liars can trick almost anyone, but if you're not a chronic liar your doc can probably tell when you're being totally honest. Hopefully by doing that he will give you enough Oxycodone to cover the month. Btw, is he giving you all Oxycodone Immediate Release, or is the 30 mg OxyContin, the time released pills? One reason to stick with Oxycodone, or whatever you're taking is because you now know what doses you will need. If he switches you to Dilaudid or Opana you have to discover what doses you need and doc's always give the lowest possible dose because that's the way things are done. I agree with that too, except when a person has already built a tolerance to opiates you have to go with a larger dose. It just has to be enough.

Last thing. If you haven't been using OxyContin I don't suggest it because the formula was reworked and most ppl say it no longer works well. But I never had it. So if you haven't been using it maybe you shouldn't, even though the doc can legally write much higher doses using OxyContin than with IR Oxycodone.

Let us know what happens. I want to know.
  #9  
Old 20-11-2011, 21:47
SoulStealer SoulStealer is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

I agree with Photobug and how bupenorphine will effect your opiate receptors for some time. I am in the medical feild and know a bit about the brain and it's receptors and how opiates work with them, so I am not going to really going into it because it would be very confusing talking about all the different enzymes and receptors, there are ALOT though that all come into play with buprenorphine, especially Suboxone. In simple terms, bupe stays in your system a long time after stopping the drug, and it has played tricks on your receptors and enzymes the year you were on it. Same as naloxone, that stays in your system for a while, because some of it is absorbed into your system when you take it. When you quit these and go back to other drugs, your brain chemistry is very confused and in a way, the enzymes attack the opiate instead of working with it, like with bupe. It is really hard to explain without using the appropriate anatomical words. But I think you get the jist of what I am saying.

Also, keep in mind, that bupenorphine is a very powerful opiate. To an opiate nieve person, they would get really messed up taking it. So your tolerance for opiates is WAAYY up there, and this could be another reason why your Oxy's aren't working for you. Your opiate tolerance may be too high to well, get high off of your Oxy's. You might need to up your dose, and play the waiting game for your tolerance and brain chemistry to reset itself, which does take quite some time.
  #10  
Old 21-11-2011, 04:30
fizojizo fizojizo is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Soul and Photobug,

Thanks for the quick suggestions related to my ordeal. Photo, yeah I've never taken LSD and I've always been scared to do, so if the Ibogaine has similar results I'll avoid this at all costs. I think back and wished I had never started taking bupe but at the time it was my only option as my insurance covered it and the oxy's tolerance was getting out of hand. I should have learned to taper my dose and dealt with it that way.

I've got a lot of thinking to do. Bupe seems to keep my mood at bay and the half-life is just god like. I've always seemed to have a depression issue and bupe does a fine job dealing with that as well. If I were to stay on bupe the lower dose I suppose wouldn't be that bad, no?

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions I'll keep you posted as to what I decide and do, etc...

Peace, Fizo
  #11  
Old 22-11-2011, 00:00
SoulStealer SoulStealer is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

I have been on Subutex for 2 and a half years. Like you, I wish I never went on it in the first place. It was a big mistake. I don't know how to get off of it either, the withdrawels are awful and last forever. I am going to start a very slow taper, as I think that is my only option. I have also heard of switching back to your DOC and then tapering off of that with your subs, kinda sounds like what you were trying to do but the drugs didn't work for you. Who knows? At times I feel that Subutex has really helped me and saved me, but most of the time I know better. And now I am fucked and don't know how to get off of it. So, I can relate. At this point I feel like I am going to be on it forever. What was your dose?
  #12  
Old 22-11-2011, 18:34
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi SoulStealer,

Out of curiosity do you know which brand of Subutex you use? Are the pills white and round or white and oval? One of the white oval brands is the Name Brand and I'm being told the company stopped making them. Or maybe there's a shortage of them too, and they're on back order. All I know is the round ones don't work on me and I'm hypersensitive to Naloxone and my legs swelled up from it. The doc's tried to tell me the Naloxone doesn't get into you. If it doesn't then why does Subutex feel different than Suboxone. Obviously because the Naloxone does get into you. And now you say the Naloxone gets stored in the body? This is why I take Subutex, but I think all companies but the round one are being pushed out of the Subutex market. This is damn scary.

I go to another board where quite a few people have successfully gotten off Sub. No one was on it as long as me, but some where on it as long as you, or almost as long. It can be done. But if Sub is helping your depression like it does with me too, then do you really want to get off it? If it doesn't cause permanent brain damage maybe it's not necessary to get off it? And just to ask again, you sound pretty sure it doesn't cause permanent brain damage. But are you really sure, or you just hope it doesn't?

I don't think we're allowed to post links on the board. But if you send me a private message I'll tell you where this other board is. One woman who was very successful wrote up how she did it in her profile. I think she started at 16 mg a day. She dropped down to 8 mg a day fairly quickly. But from (I think) 8 mg a day she dropped 2 mg once every month. At 4 mg a day, I think, she switched to 1 mg a month. She tried reducing the dose every 2 weeks and it was a bad idea. At 2 mg a day I think she started to cut the dose by 1/2 mg every month. When she finally got to 1 mg a day she started to cut the dose by 1/4 mg. At 1/4 mg a day she went to 1/4 every 2 days for a month. And then she jumped off. And she has no paws. She has now been off it about 1 year. I may have some of the details wrong, but this was basically how she did it. She also started walking everyday and taking a good B + C complex daily. I know I can give you a link in a private message. I'll send you straight to her profile page and you can read it yourself.

I wasn't planning to do it because of how well Bupe treats my depression. But all these problems with getting decent Buprenorphine have me wondering. There are also several meds a doc can give you to make the detox easier. Let me know if you need my assistance.

Photo

Photobug added 19 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

Hey Fizo,

Yeah, I did LSD and Mesc way back when I was young and dumb. I never really liked it so I now wonder why I did so much. I guess I did about 30 trips from 17 to 25 or so. I can tell you from the very first time I never felt the same again. I also still see illusions from tripping. They're not flashbacks, they're what psychologists call after images. They are like when a camera flash makes you see the white spot. But they last much longer and almost any bright color can cause them. I have learned to ignore them. But I can honestly tell you I wish I never tripped. It didn't open my mind or let me know things I never knew before the trip. And it also caused me to trip my HS sweetheart into my head in such a way that I never forgot her. Which is unfortunate because she has forgotten me, long ago. So I say don't do Ibogaine. And like I said, I heard after 6 months you feel opiate addicted again anyway.

If you want off Sub the only way is the slow taper method. Any other way will require much pain, misery, and often a relapse. But a super slow wean works every time. Granted it may take a year or more, depending on what dose you're on. But it does work. I believe if you follow the plan this friend of mine did, you can't fail. Just skip the every 2 weeks part because she was talked into that by someone who doesn't know what he's saying.

But again, what will become of your depression off Sub? It's a big problem for me. I like feeling not too depressed.

Last edited by Photobug; 22-11-2011 at 18:34. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #13  
Old 22-11-2011, 21:38
SoulStealer SoulStealer is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Photobug, thanks for your response. I'm fairly new here, I don't know how to send a private message, I will try to figure it out but if you can send me one first I would appreciate it, I could probably figure it out alot easier then.

I was on Suboxone too, and yes the naloxone does get absorbed. They say it doesn't because it has a very low bioavalability when taken sublinguially, but SOME of it does get into your system. And it adds up each time you dose (I got terrible headaches from it). I am not fully aware if bupe does cause permanent brain damage, I have read studies and so far they all are saying no, that it is safe. But bupenorphine used at the high doses it is used for in addiction compared to for pain management, is fairly new and studies are still looking for long term effects. So, we shall see.

I originally was on the brand name Subutex, but when my insurance changed I was switched to the generic. I actually had to increase my dose because they did not work as well. Now I usually get the generic from Bi-Roxane, those are the white, round ones. Sometimes though, I do get the football shaped generic ones, I can't remember the generic name right now. I go to the same pharmacy. I actually filled my script today, and the pharmacy could only fill 9 pills because that was all they had left (of the round ones) and she told me they were on back-order and she will call in again tomorrow for more. She said it will take a while, especially with the holiday weekend. I asked her if they would have them by the time I ran out, she said she didn't know and to call and if they didn't have them she would look for another pharmacy that did. I had no idea about the Brand names stopping making them or anything about this. That is scary, and ironic that it happened to me today as you just mentioned it. I wonder what is going on, maybe you could fill me in more in the private message.

And about the taper, that sounds about right. I am also on another forum which is pro-sobriety and getting off of drugs. There is alot of info their on tapering, I wonder if it is the same site we are talking about? I read alot of successful stories, but I also read some horror ones too. I don't know why I am so afraid to get off of it, I just fear it so much. I don't have the time for any w/d's. I do sometimes think I should and can just stay on it forever, my doctor even said I could if I get down to a lower dose. I just hate the thought of being dependent on something for the rest of my life. It definately does help me with depression and anxiety too. I have read some research on how some doctors want to start being able to prescribe it for depression, and about the chemistry of it all and how it helps with depression. I can send you the link, I have to look for it, but it is very interesting.

So send me a PM, I'd be interested to talk to you about all this. I don't know anyone who has been through it or going through it, so any advice or tips is appreciated. Thanks =)
  #14  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:08
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

- The part of this post that pertains to what may be happening to you is near the end, but I sort of need to fill in the back-story for it to make any sense, since suboxone is so weird to begin with, the whole story is better than just my own conclusions, but if you want to skip ahead to what I think happened to me, and what may have happened to you, is down near the end.

- Suboxone definitely does weird things to the brain, and some are effected differently than others. My pet Water Buffalo, Spotty, was on it for nearly 3 years, his only relapse back to OC during his time recieving the suboxone prescription was during the first month (although he did use opiates after he stopped the scrip, but still had subs left), and it was good at keeping any and all WD symptoms at bay. he was put on a very high dose of 4 8/2mg subs per day, so I guess that's 36mgs of buprenorphine, 8mgs of naloxone. He quickly moved down to 3, and within a year only took one in the morning. He was unique, at least from what I have read, in that he would still feel prescription opiates to their full effect when I was on subs, the time he took OC after his first month on subs did not seem blocked at all even though he had taken several 8mg suboxones that morning, and he was amused and confused at the same time since he had been told it would block everything.

- Spotty kept getting the script for 4 per day even though he was taking less for more than a year, so he built up a supply of hundreds of extras in my safe, where I hold onto his extras for him. Eventually he had so many extras he just told his doc to stop the scrip, that he had so many extras it wasn't worth paying to get new ones, and they discussed how he would taper down using what he had left. He tapered down to a half pill in the morning, then a quarter, and soon he was on an eighth or a sixteenth of a pill, literally just a crumb under the tongue in the morning. This is where it got weird for him, and things quit making sense.

- So he was like, "I'm taking so little now, how bad can WDs be?" Spotty had been taking a super small dose of just a crumb for several months by this time, on the drug for almost 3 years by now. But when he didn't take that tiny crumb the next day, his first day without one, his WDs were FULL BLOWN. Like how they were before he ever took Subs, back when he was taking 2-4 80 OCs per day. He had gone on the subs in the first place because he was assured they would make his WDs easier, as those are something he used to go through for 4-5 days at least once a month while on OC, and he was in partial WDs at least once a week when OCs ran dry or he was broke for a day or something. They were terrible, but he was able to cope marginally with it for a while, and went through them many times, though never really to FULL completion (being clean for a few weeks or whatever, when the mental shit starts to die down). Eventually it was just too much, which is why he started subs, and now he was finding out that after more than 2 f-ing years on the crap, it was gonna give me JUST AS BAD WDs, if not WORSE, than the WDs from OC habit he had gone through before, and went on subs to make easier in the first place.

- Around this time, completely dissolusioned with the suboxone process, 30mgIR oxy came into the picture, and those were able to be used and still felt as well. So he would take that tiny crumb of a sub in the morning to avoid the WDs, and then score 30s at work and take them during the day, feeling them to their full potential. It should be noted that these pills were snorted, and any other illicit opiates up until this point (such as the OCs mentioned before) were also either snorted or smoked, while subs were taken orally, as prescribed.

- Now, he is pretty much out of subs, having about 1mg left, which for him is perhaps 2 days worth, enough to get him through the worst of the WDs when he has no Oxys, which is right now. Within a day or two, the hoard of suboxone will have been completely gone through. He has been so low that he has had to go through WDs a couple times, when he thought he WAS out of suboxone but then an odd one would turn up in a pocket or under a a couch cushion. He actually got closer than he has ever gotten to being clean in october, 5 days without even suboxone, and was starting to feel better even. Then he fell, and now he is farther away from sobriety than ever before, and he doesn't really care.

- Regardless, watching the way subs have effected him differently at different doses and during different stages of treatment has been interesting, but very wierd.

- Another wierd thing Spotty noticed was that when he started IVing his 30s, they did NOT work if he had taken a crumb of suboxone that day, like they HAD worked when he snorted them. This was very wierd, since he had been used to taking smaller doses nasally and feeling them while on the same doseage of suboxone, and it had been that way for 2 years at least. And now, even if he snorts one, he won't feel it if he has had any suboxone that day. I'm not sure how quickly that changed, or what caused it. My best guess is that it has less to do with his ROA, and more to do with the timing, and how many receptors were available to opiates. In the beginning, he had grown so many opoid receptors that suboxone was not blocking them all, so he could still get high. But over time as he was on just subs, unused receptors died off, bringing him back to a normal level which CAN be blocked by suboxone now, even just a tiny dose. Does that make sense, is that possible? The drug's own website has a video that talks about extra receptors, built up through overuse of opiates, gradually dying back down to natural levels. Maybe this is the one thing they aren't lying about?

- So, you have been off it for two weeks, and still can't feel anything..... I wonder if it's possible that what I think may be happening to Spotty has happened to you, only to the point where you have virtually no opoid receptors left? Or you have a very small amount, much less than normal, and they are all still blocked by residual bupe? Sort of a combination of what others have said and what I have noticed with Spotty?

- Just a guess, Spotty has been on the shit for long enough, and we have a very good relationship, so he tells me everything. I feel I understand the drug as good as anyone can, given all the BS surrounding it, how it works on someone, and how it got it's patent. Spotty agrees, but he's just a Water Buffalo, so don't listen to him. But don't worry, I'll always be here to translate.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Very informative to me as I'm just starting sub
  #15  
Old 12-02-2012, 05:08
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Chemroxx,

That's an interesting and unusual story to be sure. I don't have any explanations.

Before I tell you anything else I would like to know exactly where on the Internet that video is? You can't post an active link here, but can you be more specific about what the URL is, or the name of the site? I want to see that video.

The reason is I have only heard this theory about receptors growing and being reabsorbed by 1 other person. I have never heard anything like that before, so I asked my Sub Doc. I'm not saying I have tremendous confidence in him, but he usually seems to know what he's saying. He told me that isn't exactly how it works. He said the stuff with the receptors is much more complex. He started to explain it but I wasn't in a learning mood that day and I didn't grasp what he said. I asked where to read about receptors and he said at pubmed.com, but I never did it. The reason I didn't do it is this receptor knowledge keeps changing, and what they believe is true now, is very likely to be different in a year or 2. But I want to watch the video you referred to.

My story is the opposite of yours. I was put on 16 mg of Suboxone in Summer of 2004. During the next 6 months I went up to 32 mg a day, felt horrible at that dose, and came back down to 24. I never felt good on Suboxone. I was on 18 mg of Suboxone for 6 months when my Gall Bladder ruptured in my sleep and I woke up screaming. Luckily I had 60 mg MsContin pills in the house. I needed 300 mg over 7 hours to get out of pain and to an ER.

Surgery was done and they kept me out of pain 4 days with Morphine IM shots. I came home and took 270 mg of Morphine a day for 4 weeks. Finally the pain was gone, and I had to induct myself back to Sub. This time I went on Subutex. But even with all that Morphine I took, I never felt any kind of buzz nor high at all. IMO Morphine doesn't cause a high. It just kills pain and makes me sleep (I know that isn't true. It was because of the Sub) I was on and off Subutex for the next 5 years. I took 5 - 8 mg a day. I never felt a high whenever I was off. Now for the worst part.

In Dec 2009 I was taken off Subutex, which was very good for me. It almost cured my depression. I was put on Percs and I immediately needed 100 mg of Oxy to stay out of wds and pain. But the wds were much worse. In the next year my tolerance went up and after 6 months I needed 300 mg of either Oxy IR or MsContin to stay out of wds and pain. Wds being much worse. By Christmas I needed about 400 mg of Oxy. In all that time, I never felt the high or buzz Oxy is known for. I also tried sniffing it to get a maximum effect. It felt different, but I still didn't get that buzz. I also didn't have cravings for the Oxy like I once did. It was the wds that made me keep taking so much. I tried to quit all the opiates in Jan 2011. The wds were worse then anything I ever felt. I tried Nucynta for a while, and 1 Doc gave me some Methadone. Not enough for a month, only 2 weeks. By April I went back on Subutex and here I am.

I don't know what Bupe did to my brain, but I think it permanently damaged something. I can't feel high on opiates anymore. I don't care much about that. I also can't feel high from alcohol anymore. I do care about that. The worst is when I need other opiates for pain, I need much higher doses and they wear off in a couple of hours rather than 4 to 6. So based on what you think Bupe does, why is this? I don't think I can ever be off opiates, and since my resistance to short acting opiates is so high, and only goes up, I may always need Subutex. Of course the Docs deny this or simply don't know. In fact I don't think they believe me. They think I am getting high on Oxy and just want more for the high. But it isn't true. It's like yeah, I wish it was true. Thanks for reading this. Sorry it was so long.
  #16  
Old 12-02-2012, 20:19
chemroxx chemroxx is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

- Hey Photo, no worries, long posts are my thing, I actually have a hard time making them shorter, and I don't mind a good read.

- The video I watched WAS a while ago, right before I went on suboxone, and it was on their own website. It was a clinical advertisement type of video, and they tried to give info about their product, basically it's a sales pitch, telling you how they are gonna fix you. Ass holes. I know how much RB has lied about their patent, and so I don't really trust anything they say about their own product/racket, however that was the one part of the video that seemed to have some truth to it, at least when I look at how I feel, and have felt, while on this drug. Also, my sub doctor said that was basically what happens, alluding to the fact that it was a little more complicated, but that was basically what was happening, or at least that was as deeply as I needed to understand it in his opinion.

- Suboxone for me is a VERY mixed blessing.... somehow, the combinations of drugs I have taken, the ways I have taken them, how long I was on suboxone, and the dose I was on of it, have altered my brain quite a bit. Withdrawls are different for me now than they used to be. I'd like to say they aren't as bad, which is true in the physical sense. Using only about 1-2mg of suboxone, I can go through the worst symptoms of my withdrawls, usually lasting 3 days, sometimes 4, with minimized physical side effects. Usually I can stop the puking altogether, and use loperamide for gastrointestinal issues. WDs have always been quick for me, it's one of the reasons I have such a hard time using them to justify kicking anything. I used to get hot and sweaty, then cold and sweaty, I'd take a cool shower to cool down, and then need to take a hot one to warm back up. After suboxone, and in WDs with or without taking any crumbs of a sub that day, my temperature doesn't fluctuate AT ALL, rather it just always feels like I am a little cold, so I wear a sweatshirt and have a lap blanket and I just sit there feeling chilly, but not overly cold, then overly hot like I used to be (I would shiver). I used to have a lot more sleepless nights, usually 2-3 in a row, now I only have one sometimes, more often than not, I just have a restless night now, but still get sleep. The only thing that is still close to the same is the fuzzy feeling I get on my brain, like someone popped the top of my skull off and is slowly dragging a velvet cloth across my brain tissue, however, that only came back recently, and I think is more due to my ROA being IV now, a much stronger ROA than snorting.

- That sounds pleasant, like my WDs aren't as bad as they used to be after suboxone... However, on day 4, I now get uncontrollable cravings. I sit there with my fists and teeth clenched, and all I can think about is making it stop, and feeling good. Most days I am in control, but sometimes it's like I'm a schitzo now. some days, I just wake up a an evil, even more drug-addicted version of myself, and will do things without thought to make sure I get what I need.... Of course I've always had cravings, but after suboxone, they are twice as bad, and twice as hard to fight. I don't even know how many times I make it to day 4, and then I somehow end up in the company of an enabler of mine, and I end up throwing away the 4 days of relative shittiness I've already gone through. Also, I used to be able to get through the cravings, now they just STAY after day 4. I've went for 2 weeks, that was in October, and I still had desperate cravings, and my back was in a LOT of pain. I found that after that amount of time, I could shoot up a couple times as long as it was during the same day, and the next day I would actually have an opiate hangover, like I would get back in the day, and no WDs at all! If I continue for even one more day, my brain shuts back down and puts me in charge of keeping it chemically stable again, which means I am fully addicted again, usually at whatever level I was last at.

- Honestly, it is all very odd, Sometimes I think one thing is happening, and then something contradictory happens and I start to get confused. I have always been very in touch with my body, and what is happening. However, that is not always the case after suboxone. I can still feel all that is going on, but sometimes I am not right anymore.

- One thing though, I think my WDs are slowly starting to creep back towards what they used to be. Now that I have been mostly off of suboxone for many months now, I honestly don't remember how long, I'm noticing flickers of what I used to go through popping back up. The other day, I kinda had a minor hot flash, just for a few seconds, but I haven't felt that in years and I know what it is. Also, I had quit sweating durings WDs, and that has started to come back too. Not at the old levels, but still there making me uncomfortable. The night of sleeplessness is becoming common again, and I know it will turn into 2-3 in a row again if it keeps going the way it is, and I am worried that my brain is now changing BACK to how it was before suboxone. I like how it is now, with less WDs than before, but I am not going back on subs, as tapering off of them before was a REAL pain in the ass.

- I DO have bad back pain, a combination of scholiosis and hypokyphosis(sp?), which basically means my spine goes up my back like a spiral staircase, only without actually twisting around on itself, of course. But I am a case of someone who needs chronic pain management, but is also a terrible addict with little self control. That makes my case difficult to deal with.

- I have looked alot into brain plasticity, and it turns out our brains are very plastic, and by that I mean malleable. The brain will continue to change as you live your life, depending on what you make it deal with. We see this when someone who is blind can teach themselves to echolocate, like a bat, or when the brain compensates for the loss of any sense by boosting the others. It is the same with drug receptors, and it is probably a lot more complicated than the simple explanation I have heard of receptors just dying off and coming back. However, I think that is BASICALLY what is happening, in laymans terms anyway. I would like to understand it better, I feel like I have a grasp on what is happening to me, but the grasp is tenuous and I would like a much firmer grip. I joined on here to learn a little about poppies for my friend Spotty, he is an expert grower, want's to have something like opium around instead of suboxone to deal with his addictions. However, I was surprised and glad to see these kinds of discussions on Suboxone, as it effects me directly and I really wish I knew exactly how. Thanks for wanting to have this conversation. We have both been messed up by suboxone, in totally different ways. I've read about others who have still different problems! It actually makes it a little more confusing, but that means I don't understand it as well as I thought and that is knowledge I needed to know.

chemroxx added 2 Minutes and 51 Seconds later...

Also, interesting that suboxone caused you depression... I have depression, but suboxone did not effect it one way or another until I went off, when it got worse as one would normally expect. I feel that perhaps there is no such thing as a typical case when it comes to this drug. Some things are similar, but many symptoms we seem to go through are atypical and specific just to us. That, more than anything, makes it harder to sift through all the BS with this drug.

Last edited by chemroxx; 12-02-2012 at 20:19. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #17  
Old 13-02-2012, 00:35
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Chemroxx,

You misunderstood me about the depression. Sub, or Bupe to be exact, didn't cause it. On the contrary it has made it much better. You didn't put your age here, I'm 59. All that means is I know things about myself because some have been going on since I was 16. I have only recently made sense of them. At least I think so. I'm like you in that I'm very self aware of how I feel.

IMO, or for me, this addiction illness is a mental emotional illness. I feel depressed, anxious, and generally like shit all the time. I've been this way since I was a teen. Back then all I knew was I don't feel right, and any drug is an improvement, but some drugs worked better than others. That was all I knew all my life. I used to smoke weed and drink beer. I also used a Benzo when I could, but I didn't abuse them. I just didn't want to feel like shit.

Enter Bupe into my life in 2004. It took me a whole year to realize it, but I no longer felt a need to take anything other than the occasional Benzo for anxiety or insomnia. But my depression was much better, and I no longer felt like shit inside me and about me. To be more precise my self esteem improved, and I became optimistic rather than pessimistic. Do you know the old comparison to a half glass of water? If I was asked to describe a half glass I said it was half empty. People who feel normal say it's half full. I was always seeing the bad of everything. Bupe changed my outlook on me, life, people, the world, everything. This is how I finally realized that I used to take drugs to feel OK. Sure if I was at a party or out on a Sat night, I was looking to have fun. But that wasn't the reason I used a drug on a day to day basis. Understand? Bupe was great. But now the pharmaceutical companies are messing with the formula and it doesn't make me as optimistic as it did. Some closed minded people think feeling optimistic is the same as high. These are people who feel optimistic normally. They don't have something wrong in their body, brain, and mind. So they have forced the pharmaceutical companies to change Bupe. Heck, RB no longer makes Bupe as Subutex. That was the best Bupe there was. And I hope I'm wrong about this, but IMO this is being done purposely because the "normal" ppl think we're lying when we say Bupe makes us feel optimistic and normal. They think myself and others are lying to feel high.

The big concern is when I needed other opiates for pain. I sure needed a lot more than I once did, and they wear off much quicker. Even after a whole year off Bupe, this didn't change. Then I lost my Doc so I tried to stay without any opiates. Forget it. This is no longer an option for me. Did Bupe cause this, or would any opiate have caused it after this long? Answers please. I'll listen to opinions based on facts. This is what upsets me. I am also slightly upset that I can longer have a few beers and catch a nice buzz. People should be told that will happen.

To use your ideas on receptors, which I say again is all new knowledge and rapidly changing, I say this. I spent 5 years on 5 - 8 mg of Bupe. All my extra opiate receptors should have been long gone. But when I went off Bupe the ones I have started to scream bloody murder. I needed 100 mg of Oxy just to be without wds. But a few weeks later I needed 150 mg Oxy. The dose went up rapidly. So this doesn't make sense. Using the receptor grow/die model, my so called dead receptors hadn't died at all. They just took a 5 year nap. As soon as Bupe left, they woke up and called all their friends. I had new receptors growing like crazy. It just doesn't stop. And where I once could make myself stay with no opiates, I no longer can. The wds are too strong and too chronic. I also have no reason to think they will ever stop. I did a CT detox in 1993. It was hell. I only got through because other opiate addicts who did it assured me that after 10 days it would be much better. Which it was. But no more. Is it because of Bupe? Maybe it's my age. It's a fact that older people heal slower? Is it the length of time on opiates? I just don't know. It seems that for me, the receptor growing and dying theory doesn't explain much. Or does it?

You my friend you are so unusual I don't know what to say. I never heard of someone who could be on Sub and still get the full effects of opiates. The only thing I can liken it to is something my 1st PM Doc. said. To me this is unbelievable, but he was serious. He was young, lacking in experience, but brilliant about pain. He had me up to 24 Vics a day and he never worried how I would get off them. The reason is he had never had a patient before who couldn't just stop in 5 - 7 days with very little discomfort. He had never met anyone like me who just couldn't do it because the wds were too intense. But how can anyone just stop with little or no wds? I have no answers, but I guess you were one of them, or you still are.

The Doc I see said another disturbing thing. He said we have opiate receptors all over our bodies. We don't know why. He said opiates do many things as reported by many people. We don't know how. He said other than killing pain and making us addicted, opiates have not been studied scientifically.

I guess the reason is because of the stigmas attached to this illness. And unfortunately those stigmas are too often true. Case in point I know of a 55 year old opiate addict who is on Sub. This cat is aware opiates won't make him high no more. Nevertheless he tried. I don't fault him for that, because I did it too a few times. What upsets me is he stole them from someone who used them for pain. I thought at his age and his level of intelligence he was long past that. It's because some of us do things like this that we have the stigmas and the medical profession and society isn't so sympathetic to us. This is a big problem, and I think we all need to make sure we don't do stuff like this. If too many of us keep doing it we're never going to get the attention and compassion we need to make the medical profession look for a real cure for us.

I guess this is all for now.
  #18  
Old 13-02-2012, 03:05
chemroxx chemroxx is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

- Ok, your experience about the depression makes more sense now... I am similar in that way, Subs made me feel totally normal while on them, and that's great. Then when off of them, I only feel the same while actively "feeling" whatever opiate I am on. The reason I don't like it is because it just does stuff to me I don't understand, which is highly unusual for me. with regular opiates, I know what to expect when I am on them and off them... With bupe, I only know what to expect when I am on it, when I go off it I just never know.

- I am a 29 year old male, if that helps with anything, and doing opiates for more than half my life, I started with Vics at 14, I broke my foot playing basketball and it they made me better at everything... My fucking grades even went up. I quickly moved to OC 80s within a couple years of their original release in '95, and after subs, with the OC formula changed, I go for the 30IR oxys, I may have only been a highschool freshman when I first started using OCs, but I know for sure I was heavy into it by sophmore year.

- I recognize that I am unique in some aspects, The whole getting high while on subs thing was wierd, and cool while it lasted I guess, but no longer happens. The bupe totally blocks it now, like it was always sopposed to. This happened about the same time I started IVing, but I don't think the change in ROA was what caused the change, as I was also tapering HEAVILY on the subs at that exact same time... And I still don't know why it changed, but it felt like was like it was overnight.

- What I am starting to think is that, perhaps, some peop's brains are more plastic than others, and the receptors in my brain might not have responded the same way that yours did? I think that, with this drug, a lot may depend on the condition of the brain when one starts taking it. It sounds like your receptors were not killed off, rather lain dormant like you say, but in other cases, it seems/feels like they have been slowly killed off. And like I said, now that I have been off subs (for the most part, aside from the occasional crumb after I use), it feels like they are coming back, and my WDs are slowly starting to get a little worse each time I use.

- I should add that I mediate any symptoms I may have with MANY other drugs. I am prescribed both Xanax and Valium, I have terrible anxiety/anger management that only drugs can control (although they make it worse at the same time, when I run out), and take both immediately upon waking, and lately have added temazepam to the mix. My daily Xanax intake is between .5mg to 1.5mg, my daily valium intake is between 5-10mgs. I snort the benzos, even though they have great bioavailibility I find it still helps them kick in faster. my daily oxy intake can be roughly 120mgs-240mgs when Im in them, and I will use for up to a month at a time, then take a 2-4 days off to lower my tolerance before going back on.

- Also, I do not seem to be able to develop any kind of dependance to benzos at all, which is actually a family trait. My grandmother was on lots of valium, said she never had a problem (she had a tub of 1000 10mgs on the kitchen counter, next to a tub of 1000 black beauties... Those were the days, lol) and my mother is prescribed 30mgs a day, almost her whole life. She told me that she never noticed any WD symptoms when she ran out of Vals until she had been using for 40 years, daily. And even now, I can't actively SEE any WDs in her, she just says she get's mild stuff, mostly mental. I have been on the benzos for probably 5 years myself, and I can run out for a whole week at a time with absolutely no symptoms at all..... I have also lately been taking 30-45 mgs of temazepam, at least twice during the day, with a heavier dose to help me sleep. This combination actually abates most of my minor symptoms completely, such as watery eyes, a mild naseous feeling I sometimes get (still no actual vomiting, maybe a gag). I also use diphenhydramine, methocarbomol, and loperamide to deal with any and all other symptoms. Between all the drugs, and the smidge of suboxone, I can keep myself relatively comfortable, if slightly chilly, until the mental shit kicks in. Even without the suboxone, which is such a small amount it may well be a placebo at this point, but probably isn't, everything is mild, most of the time... But there are surprises.

- The last morning I used, day before yesterday, I woke up and was actually gagging, having trouble. I felt like my full WDs were coming back. I took a 30mg dose at 7am, haven't had any since, and that night I recieved no sleep, which was the only WD symptom I could discern. But since then, I have had only slightly watery eyes, which are dry right now. At the moment I have no troubling physical WD symptoms, and this is after a couple weeks of constant use since my last short break. Honestly, I think my morning sickness that CAN hapen if I let it is more from post-nasal-drip that happens while I have light WD symptoms in my sleep, and in the morning my gut can be filled with bile and pflegm if I do not take diphenhydramine. However, the benadryl completely abates this also, leaving me to believe that my morning naseua is more a product of the inscreased mucus production (sorry, I know this is gross) due to light WD symptoms, because benadryl taken orally at night keeps me dry all night and I am not sick in the morning. Also, even if I forget the benadryl, I am only sick until I get the stuff that dripped down during the night out, then I am no longer sick. Before subs, I would be sick all day, a completely different kind of sickness, hugging the toilet, more typical stuff. Now it's just..... not as bad.

- But for anyone who wishes they had less WDs, think about this. For most, WDs are actually something bad enough to make them want to stop, for me, they are not bad enough... It is a major hinderance to dealing with the addiction part of this complicated issue. Even when they WERE more regular, before the subs, I didn't mind going through them consistantly, at one point about 3 days of every week. They were unpleasant, but my symptoms were never as bad as what I read about others going through, and never lasted as long. I don't know the explanations for all this. It is perhaps a combination of genetics and the measures I take to abate any symptoms my body can't deal with on it's own. All I know is that, if I don't fuck up, WDs aren't that bad until my cravings hit, day 4, then it's game over.
  #19  
Old 13-02-2012, 19:52
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Chemroxx,

You are fairly young. That may mean something in terms of wds. Why you are so different is a mystery of the brain. But I have some ideas in this.

Have you been trying to do any technical reading on the latest brain knowledge. I know it's hard to do. 35 years ago I went to collage with the intents of getting a PhD in psychology and becoming a psychotherapist. I never made it to graduate school due to issues caused by not good parents. Not going into that. Part of the training I did receive was knowledge on how the brain functions. To say it was interesting is an understatement. They did tell us it was constantly changing, although slowly because it's unethical to experiment on human brains. Of course. My point is that if the basic knowledge hadn't been presented systematically, in the classroom, I don't know how much I could really learn through random reading. That's what we do on the Internet. I have a very hard time with it. But since you are much younger maybe you fare better than me. If you do this, try the pubmed web site. I think Doc's read it, so it may be technical, but also accurate. You do seem to be able to think the way a person needs to think to grasp this stuff. Yes that means intelligent, but it means more, although the word escapes me. That's a hazard of being 59. Words escape me too much. Never did even 10 years ago.

We've known about chemical differences in the brain at least 20 years. The more recent knowledge seems to concern what may be called, brain structure. I may be wrong, it may have a different name. 35 years ago it was assumed we all had the same structures in our brains, and that these structures, once grown and formed, were fixed and unchanging. Now those ideas are in doubt. We already know that interconnections between brain cells changes often and rapidly. Maybe various brain receptors are sprouting and reabsorbing too. I think the current understanding isn't that a receptor dies. The brain cell reabsorbs the receptor back into itself. With chemicals we use the word reuptake. Not sure of the word with receptors. There are also supposed to be 4 opioid receptors and the 4th doesn't have a name yet. The 1st is the mu, and we think we understand how it functions fairly well. But maybe we don't because of the way you react.

This is a total theory I just had. So when you do Sub let's say it goes all over your mu, stopping whatever wds you were feeling. Then you took another opiate. When that chemical gets in your brain, maybe your brain was capable of quickly sprouting new receptors that didn't have Bupe on them to accept the new opiate, thereby making you high. Furthermore when the opiates wore off, your brain could also rapidly pull those receptors back into itself, so you felt no wds. It's this ability to rapidly, and I mean in minutes, sprout and reabsorb receptors that made you unique. A similar notion is you have other receptors that Bupe doesn't go to that can double up as a mu receptor when the other opiates are present. Makes sense? It's almost like a super power. LOL But now what happened to it? I don't think ROA means much neither. Except that maybe it does. If my theory is right, then even your super receptor brain has limits. So long as the chemical enters you slowly enough your brain can do this. But when shooting the drug, it gets there so fast your brain doesn't have time to react. Or there can be some other kind of chemical drug sensor we have, that allowed your brain to know the drug had entered your body. Maybe you by passed it with IV? If I was you I'd quit IVing to see if those other effects come back.
Btw, IVing any drug becomes an addiction in it's own right. This will not lead to anything good. I'm getting fond of you so I wanted to tell you that.

The last idea about where these super receptor powers went to can be age. Being 29 can be a factor. Maybe you're just losing this ability with age? We lose a lot of abilities with age.

I think you should go do reading on receptors at pubmed. I'll be very interested in knowing what you discover. If you do, keep this in mind. Even in me, if I take a regular opiate 8 hours after Bupe, I still get some of it's effects. Do you know how when you're opiate dependent and you take the first dose in the day it will often stimulate the colon? That happens to me. The good Name Brand Subutex did that too for 5 years. This cheapola generic Sub does not. However, if I take 5 mg of Oxy I'm in the bathroom 30 minutes later. I also get pain relief. I Do NOT get high. So apparently the receptors for killing pain are not just the Mu. Maybe the Mu is only the feel high receptor because Bupe blocks it. Or can it be there are different areas on a receptor where the chemicals go? But again, what about the 2 opioid receptors we are unsure about? At 59 I really no longer seem to have a mind for reading technical stuff. I also need new glasses. So I urge you to go read.

I like the idea about your brain was able to sprout and reabsorb receptors super fast, compared to the rest of us. Unless you have a reason to doubt this, or a better theory, you should look for evidence to support this.

Let me get the rest clear. Even when you could do all that, did you still become hooked, or were you able to completely stop all opiates for a week or more with no wds? Or did you always have to have some, even very little, every few days? If so, maybe there are a small number of receptors that must be present. But wait.

When we detox, I was under the assumption that the receptors stay there and we have to retrain them to not be so stimulated all the time because the opiates are gone. Or we retrain them to be happy with just our own endorphins. This is what I thought. But maybe when we detox, what we need to do is have our brains reabsorb them? If so, super long lasting wds, like mine, means my brain has lost the ability to reabsorb them. Ah shit ... that's really scary. But why did this happen? Because I took any opiate for so long now that the receptors are permanent somehow? How? Or do the opiates damage the brain so it cannot reabsorb the receptors, resulting in never ending wd? Or does only Bupe cause this damage (as I suspect), or maybe Bupe just does it faster? You called it the brain being plastic, but how about the brain has elastic properties to it. So with that model either too many opiates for too long causes the brain to lose it's elasticity, and Bupe does that worse? Will that elasticity ever come back? I doubt it. Not if its like the elasticity of the lungs that get damaged by various chemicals.

Lots and lots of questions, Chemroxx. We need more facts, because I think we're making logical progress. But always remember that with logic, if we start with false knowledge, we're most likely going to reach false conclusions.

I'll be waiting to hear your latest ideas on my new theories here.

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  #20  
Old 17-02-2012, 02:53
chemroxx chemroxx is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

- Honestly, makes more sense than anything I can think of now... It just gets more and more confusing, really. But I do have a general grasp of what it generally FEELS like is happening, and that could be it. Your theory covers more bases than if receptors simply withered and died..... Which is what SUBOXONE said was happening at their website, so I am more than willing to accept an alternative theory. If they do/did indeed have the ability to suck themselves back and resprout at will, that's a fucking trip... But like I said, one that, given the fact that I was able to get high while on Bupe for so long, starts to make sense.

- And for the record, I do indeed have minor symptoms when I first go off whatever I was on. I get waterey eyes, and I yawn sometimes. This was NOT always the case, my withdrawls used to be just horrible.... Part of what makes this so hard to put in order is that I am talking about 15 years of various ups and downs, in a distinctly non-clinical setting. That makes it hard for even ME to think about this, and I have always felt I had a good handle on what my brain was up to... One reason this is something I'd like to understand better.

- I am also here to report that my withdrawls might not ACTUALLY be getting worse. I did 240mgs over the course of a day and the next morning, I think 3-4 days ago, when my "withdrawls" were at that point where taking something should have sent me right back to square one, only worse, as I had been suspecting was happening. It was an experiment as well, because I was wondering if my WDs would be worse than they had been the last time I did a similar dose after a similar number of days clean (4). That time, if you remember, I had worried because upon waking up without anything, I wretched/gagged a bit before I got my dose in. If it was getting worse with each consecutive dose, I should have at LEAST gagged or something, but I did not because I remembered to take a measly 4 benadryl before bedtime. So it still seems that, for the moment, my withdrawl symptoms are very mild, and at my current level of use, which is less than it has ever been in years (I hadn't gone a day without SOMETHING until very recently, now I go 3-4 days all the time) do not seem to be getting worse. I think that part of it is that I am on a lower dose than I used to be, but it is still a high enough dose to cause WDs for many, especially taken on the timelines I have taken them, so it has got to be more.

- I found a scrip of tramadol from July with a refill on it, and I will use that to try and get the rest of the way clean. Also, I have some Chlordiazepoxide 25mg and some Clonidine HCL .1mg tabs. These were prescribed to someone in my family when they went on bupe and were still having WDs, and I see they are used for anxiety, and one is used for mild pain relief, while the other is used to help people with restless leg and other WD symptoms, usually from alcohol but the Doc prescribed them for opiates.

- I just had another thought. I am very good at mediating symptoms, and I have ALWAYS mediated during my WDs. I can never remember a time without mediation that I felt worked to one degree or another. Back when WDs were worse, I had to take more Unisom, benedryl, immodium, etc.. Now I take less, and they are seemingly MORE mediated than ever before. Could it be that the simple fact that I always mediated to a fairly good degree have had some kind of cumulative effect that makes WDs easier for me in general?

- My ultimate goal, until my back pain gets so bad I'm not sleeping again (I was in a car wreck in July, fucked up my already fucked up back), is to get to where I can take a dose one day, and not only not feel WDs the next, but get to where I have that opiate hangover I used to get back in high school, when my brain worked properly. I got there in october, I got clean for 2 weeks and when I dosed hard one night and woke up the next morning, I was still fuzzy and warm... opiate hangover. It happened. But I used too heavily several days straight and smashed it back down to me having these stupid mild symptoms. And even so, isn't 2 weeks(after nearly everyday IV use, I was using heavier in the fall than I am now) pretty fast to get to the point where your brain is making it's own happy chemicals in enough of an amount to make a difference?

- I think part of all this is that I actually AM lowering my general opoid tolerance. I tapered off the bupe, and I have gradually started using less oxycodone, and going longer between doses. However, alot of the same things that are happening now still happened at higher doses, it was always not THAT hard. And the Bupe definitely changed things, for better or for worse, I'm honestly not sure, but I do know I never want to go on that again. And there is still the issue of me getting high while on Bupe as recently as maybe 8-9 months ago.

- Also, there is still the issue of why my mental WDs, the stuff that kicks in on day 4 for me, are now so much WORSE. I never used to have cravings when I actually did have something more than mild WDs before Bupe. I mean, I wanted to get high again, but not like it gets now. It now makes my anger management impossible, even the slightest thing will send me into a tailspin, and then all I can think about for at least an hour, sometimes 2, is that I need something... And when I'm like that, benzos don't work as well either. They work better on standard anxiety than anxiety caused by the mental WDs, if that makes sense... Why would the part of my WDs that used to bother me the least get so much worse, when the relatively worse physical symptoms are now so much less? That is the part I'm having trouble understanding now that I am on day 4.

- One question, do you think the Tramadol is a good choice to help with the malaise? I am running low on Xanax, and I only get 5mgs of valium a day, so I feel it is safe to add a couple drugs to my symptom mediation cocktail. As I have explained, the days AFTER the first 4 are actually when it gets bad for me, so this is when the hard part starts for me. Tramadol has never been a drug I found much abuse potential in, so I should be able to take it in the mornings at small doses in hopes it will ease my depression, pick up some of the slack from the Xanax I'm low on. It may work better because it is an opiate, albeit an odd one. I am actually relying on the fact that it only weakly reacts with the mu-receptor, thinking that my brain might not get addicted to it as fast as I tend to get addicted, especially at low doses (probably no more than 60-120mgs per day)... although my brain doesn't tend to differentiate much between opiates either when it comes to getting me dependent. I guess at this stage, with my symptoms being so mild even after taking a decent sized dose, I feel it it is safe enough to try... What's the worse that can happen on a low dose of Tramadol, which weakly reacts with the mu? I'm not talking about the seziures or any other negative side effects, I simply mean in terms of my mild WD symptoms. Even slamming down my DOC at a large enough dose to make me feel great wasn't enough to make anything worse at this point, it just sorta stayed the same. so I guess thats the worse that COULD happen, and my WDs are not bad enough to make me worry about that. I do not plan to use the tramadol for an extended peroid of time, just to help with the mental aspects of WDs that make this so hard for me. It does not get me high so I will not attempt to take super huge doses to chase a high I'm not even sure I can have. I will start small, see if it does anything, and if it does, I will taper it down over a few days. Maybe I can avoid the mental parts too with proper mediation? Sound sane, or am I off my rocker? I know you know more than I do, although I also took classes in psych with the intention of being a psych major, and do have a basic understanding of everything... And if I don't I'm a quick learner. Thanks for the help so far, maybe I will get to the bottom of this after all. I will check that website when I get a chance. Some doc-talk is over my head, but like I said, I'm a fast learner. Thanks again, looking forward to what you think of my latest suspicions/plans.

chemroxx added 9 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

- Edit: I see that Chlordiazepoxide can have bad, potentially fatal effects if taken with opiates, so I will be very, very careful as I start this new combo.... I feel it is not that dangerous because of the low doses I will be taking and the fact that these drugs do not make me want to abuse them at all. If it works, I will have two seperate mediation techniques for both the stages of WDs I have to go through. Thomas method be damned!

Last edited by chemroxx; 17-02-2012 at 02:53. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #21  
Old 17-02-2012, 23:13
Photobug Photobug is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Hi Chemroxx,

I can't help you too much with Tramadol because I never took it. I don't know how it makes you feel. I only know this from people I helped quit Trammies. It's different from regular opiates. It's a different addiction. It has different wds. For example, I knew a woman who was hooked on Trammies for 7 years. A few times a year she needed Percs due to pain and surgery. Then she was hooked on both. She would do a detox and break the addiction to Percs, but she was still hooked on Trammies. I'm not going to even guess at how or why this happens, I only know it does. So I don't think you should take Tramadol long. I have heard Tramadol will make wds from other opiates go away. But if you stay on it too long you will then be hooked on both kinds of drugs. Ad I don't know how long too long is. Since you're already hooked on opiates I think too long can be a week, maybe even less.

This next part is off the general topic we've been on, but it's back on Subutex.

I never ever figured the problem with Subutex was the real Buprenorphine would stop being made, and some cheap knock up would replace it. I think I now have to try and quit this stuff, because it just isn't doing anything good for me anymore. Real Bupe and even Teva was helping me with my problems. This stuff now doesn't help anything. I'm just addicted to it and if I don't keep taking it I get sick. Here's the latest bad news. Last week this Roxane Sub seemed to be waking me up, that was a good thing. Now it's making me tired. Very tired. Too much so. It also seemed to be causing a lot of pain on my tongue. It seems to irritate my mouth. It was so bad that for 2 days I had to use a different ROA. But it irritated my sinus membranes faster than my tongue. I feel like I'm f***ed, and not in the good way.

Sorry there's no theory stuff in this post. I think this crappy Sub dulls my brain. I feel like, assume by brain is 10 light bulbs. Right now only 6 are on. Or all 10 are lit, but they're only shinning at 60% of their usual intensity. This is me on Rox Bupe. Not good.

So be careful with them Trammies. I mean who else is going to read all my theories.

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  #22  
Old 09-04-2013, 19:17
Maryjane693 Maryjane693 is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

Interesting conversation. I'm here because my dog is considering going on suboxone for his IV dilaudid problem. He is IVing 5mg per day. The thought of suboxone increasing his tolerance or frying his receptors so opiates no longer work terrifies him as he does get severe migraines that make him suicidal if he does not get relief. He has tried tapering and did get down to 1mg. Then he threw his back out just over 3 months ago and progressed pretty rapidly to current dose. It is hard to taper when IVing yet the bio-availability of dilaudid is shit any other way. He is thinking try a small methadone taper might be appropriate... He realizes that the detox from this is hell but wonders if this is better than suboxone since it has been fully researched. Any thoughts?
  #23  
Old 22-05-2013, 01:13
jimmypins jimmypins is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

it all comes down to the person.i did 4mg sub last monday at 8am and at 10am had a spike in my arm and by my 2nd shot of 3bags was nodding into the keyboards.by the 3rd day of no subs i was grooving all day n night.figured i was gonna stop subs,catch a chippy on dope,go back n detox on subs then stop both together.ehhh,didn't work.feel sicker now than ever.did 8mg this morning at 2am in full wd's,again at 7am,at 10 shot 10 bags in 7minutes and felt nothing.so it all has to do with ones physical makeup.i can stop for a day,bang some H the next and feel fine.it's the stopping that's hard...
  #24  
Old 21-02-2014, 02:10
jbarcelona jbarcelona is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

I have been n 24 mg suboxone per day for 2 years and I am so very angry, I have been shuffled between doctors like a lab rat, but where this gets applicable is I just recently ran out of suboxone between doctors, and I got some 7.5 loratabs, I took 2mg suboxone this morning, and I just took 2 of the loratabs, and I can feel them maybe full effect, it's been so long since I have taken any I can't remember the whole feeling, but it got most of the pain, and all of the withdrawl for me. So I think it is safe to say that it is drastically different from one person to the next. Hope this is helpful, because this post is pretty old.
  #25  
Old 21-02-2014, 10:12
sicsicsic sicsicsic is offline
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Re: Off Suboxone for two weeks now and can't feel any opiate effects.

I am not on suboxone anymore - i came off of it (very looong and rough withdrawal I might add)

But jbarcelona, in my past experience, if I ran out of suboxone, I could use heroin even up to 5 days later with very little high, but the withdrawal would be gone and the pain would be gone. Suboxone is a very weird drug indeed.

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