Drugs-Forum  
Home Wiki Studies Forum Groups Blog Video Images News
Go Back   Drugs Forum > DRUG-FORUMS > Ethnobotanicals > Kratom
Mark Forums Read
Register Tags

Notices

Kratom Mitragyna speciosa

 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 28-08-2011, 15:44
BlueSky11 BlueSky11 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 19-03-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 11
BlueSky11 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffeine??

My little birdy is having issues right now with brain/body zaps. She is familiar with these as she's been put on every antidepressant in the book, and has been prescribed Tramadol before, and these have all caused the similar zaps. Right now she is not on any of these, only the following:

CLONAZEPAM (brand name Klonipin - on & off last 4 years, .5 to 2mg/day)
CAFFEINE
(heavier consumption for last year and started using "energy drinks" more regularly)
KRATOM (Bali powdered leaf - about 3-6 measured teaspoons/day)

She's very well read and has found many answers through her own experience & research, but this one has stumped her and is causing her great trouble.

ANY SUGGESTIONS, EDUCATED GUESSES, OR REAL MEDICAL EXPLANATIONS ARE EXTREMELY APPRECIATED!!!


Here's my birdy's story:
She has been diagnosed with Chronic Epstein Barr a year and a half ago, and has spent YEARS trying different meds for anxiety/depression, or what a couple of her doctors believe could be in the bipolar spectrum. Regardless, my birdy has absolutely experienced these brain/body zaps in the past from AD's and Tramadol prescribed for the EB.

At the beginning of July, my birdy was put on Tramadol for about a month, but has since weaned off. She did take the max dose while she was on it (300mg) and a few days over that month she did abuse it and take more than that because she liked the "high." She wanted off this med b/c she liked it too much and has a history of addiction. She is also VERY sensitive to all psychiatric meds and Tramadol works both like an opiate and an SSRI. She weaned off over the course of 2 weeks, and experienced the zaps. To help with the withdrawal, my birdy ordered some Bali Kratom. This really helped with the zaps and any has helped her depression in the past, so all was good.

But now it has been almost a month, and the zaps are still there, sometimes worse, sometimes not as bad. She's only on the 3 substances listed above and is wondering:

1. Could the zaps still be from the Tram withdrawal??? Like mentioned, she is VERY sensitive to these meds and experiences full w/d even after only a month.

2. Could the Kratom be covering up the zaps and preventing my little birdy from going through the full w/d of the Tram, thereby "masking it" in a way?

3. Could the Kratom itself, or the combination with the other 2 substances be causing this?


THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP!!!!!

This has been a truly wonderful site and a wealth of knowledge for SWIM, but SWIM hasn't posted much - just read and learned a lot on top of the many books she's read on addiction, psychology and psychiatric meds. SWIM's searched the site for answers to my birdy's specific issues, but has found none. SWIM thinks her situation is unique, that is why SWIM is posting for her little birdy.

BlueSky11 added 2 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

**swim actually meant 400mg as the max dose for the tramadol.

Last edited by BlueSky11; 28-08-2011 at 15:44. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #2  
Old 28-08-2011, 16:05
Pino Gold member Pino is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: 20-05-2007
30 y/o Male from Netherlands
Posts: 559
Blog Entries: 2
Pino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPACPino must think in IUPAC
Points: 1,973, Level: 6 Points: 1,973, Level: 6 Points: 1,973, Level: 6
Activity: 0.6% Activity: 0.6% Activity: 0.6%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Swim had brainzaps from the tramadol. It acts as an SSRI, which have brainzaps as withdrawal. But swim had them for 2 weeks or so. He didn't had problems with the opiate withdrawal strangely enough. (400-600 mg daily)

But if one is unsure, goto a doctor. They are generally not bad people and has to keep personal stuff secret.
  #3  
Old 28-08-2011, 19:25
BlueSky11 BlueSky11 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 19-03-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 11
BlueSky11 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Thank you for your response! While my birdy does understand your suggestion to see a doctor, she's been through the ringer for years being thrown on every medication in the book that she does not want to take anymore, and that's normally been the outcome of her doctor visits. She knows that the zaps began with the Tramadol, and although the Kratom has helped to take them away and improve her overall mood, she's wondering if it may be prolonging the withdrawal? That's why SWIM came here to ask on her behalf.
  #4  
Old 28-08-2011, 20:00
DiabolicScheme DiabolicScheme is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 05-04-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 760
DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.
Points: 1,174, Level: 5 Points: 1,174, Level: 5 Points: 1,174, Level: 5
Activity: 1.7% Activity: 1.7% Activity: 1.7%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Its not likely any of the three that are causing this problem but Kratom (as well as any pharmaceutical opioid) CAN COVER SSRI withdrawal symptoms. I don't know what the science is behind this but as a paxil user I was able to skip several days and while I still experienced withdrawal symptoms Kratom seemed to really blunt the effects of SSRI Withdrawal.

Omega 3 Fatty Acids ASAP, take about 4 - 6 pills (2 grams) every 6 hours this should help eliminate them. Very safe supplement unless you are using blood thinners or have a clotting disorder (too thin) in which cause I don't recommend it. Fatty Acids are believed to play a role in the regulation of neurotransmitters it in fact helps some people with depression on its own. You can actually take Omega 3 Fatty Acids on a regular basis and the SSRI withdrawals should subside over time.

For me they completely covered the brain zap aspect of withdrawal though they didn't cover any of the agitation or attitude problems I developed during withdrawal. It worked instantly for me, but its possible to take a couple of days to work for you.

DXM (dextromethorphan) can also help with SSRI withdrawal syndrome though I'm not entirely sure if this is going to help you actually withdrawal or just delay the symptoms. DXM works because it is a serotonin releaser rather than a SSRI Reuptake inhibitor. I don't recommend using this unless you just can stand it anymore, in which case you can use it until you can get in to see a doctor.

As to the cause of your brain zaps I believe its Tramadol, SSRI Withdrawal symptoms can last a long time (months). In these cases tampering should be used with the substance that caused it. If this is too much of a pita you can use a SSRI with a longer half life that gradually leaves the system on its own (Prozac).

I wish you luck!
  #5  
Old 28-08-2011, 20:02
Halor Halor is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: 27-01-2011
Male from United States
Posts: 187
Halor is a decent psychonaut.
Points: 285, Level: 2 Points: 285, Level: 2 Points: 285, Level: 2
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

i apologize - i was mixing my acronyms.. well i guess you could call the method swiy does the Kratom a return on investment.. haha - i was trying to see your route of administration.

What is SWIY's ROI?

I am unfamiliar with Kratom and ROI's - but with my rabbit and certain types of meth while injecting - as he is coming off of the injection high(s) - even if he is still smoking or whatnot - his brain will zap his body and vise versa. Rabbit has never been able to determine why.. but if rabbit stops slamming long enough it goes away.

I would also suggest seeing a doctor though, these forums or online webmd help is NO substitute for a doctors care.

Last edited by Halor; 28-08-2011 at 21:38.
  #6  
Old 28-08-2011, 20:45
BlueSky11 BlueSky11 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 19-03-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 11
BlueSky11 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Thanks again for the replies!! Diabolic: I think you hit the nail on the head for my birdy with your insight that Kratom "CAN COVER SSRI withdrawal symptoms." My birdy's used Kratom on & off in the past and never got zaps from it on it's own. She thought that it may be too long to still be having w/d from the Tramadol, but if the Kratom is extending or masking that w/d, that would make sense.

My birdy thought that maybe higher doses of caffeine or especially these crazy "energy drinks" they have on the market could have been part of the combination, that's why SWIM listed them for her.

Would it be smart to wean off the Kratom then? My birdy's fear is that this is an incredibly stressful time in her life, and she can't bear to handle the zaps on a daily basis for any length of time. She'd be open to staying on the Kratom until they subside, unless they won't subside at all b/c the Kratom is preventing the withdrawal to take place. She may decide just to wait it out, use the Kratom when the zaps come on, and wait for a less stressful time to finally wean off.

Thanks again - this has been a rough time on my little birdy and she really appreciates all the understanding she can get!!!!!



BlueSky11 added 5 Minutes and 4 Seconds later...

Halor: I'm sorry, I'm not all that familiar with the lingo here. What is ROI?

Last edited by BlueSky11; 28-08-2011 at 20:45. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #7  
Old 28-08-2011, 21:01
DiabolicScheme DiabolicScheme is offline
Titanium Member
 
Join Date: 05-04-2010
Male from United States
Posts: 760
DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.DiabolicScheme must live here.
Points: 1,174, Level: 5 Points: 1,174, Level: 5 Points: 1,174, Level: 5
Activity: 1.7% Activity: 1.7% Activity: 1.7%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky11 View Post
Would it be smart to wean off the Kratom then? My birdy's fear is that this is an incredibly stressful time in her life, and she can't bear to handle the zaps on a daily basis for any length of time. She'd be open to staying on the Kratom until they subside, unless they won't subside at all b/c the Kratom is preventing the withdrawal to take place. She may decide just to wait it out, use the Kratom when the zaps come on, and wait for a less stressful time to finally wean off.


Halor: I'm sorry, I'm not all that familiar with the lingo here. What is ROI?
My opinion is you should add Omega 3 Fatty Acids to the mix, use Kratom for one more day and then try to cut it out cold turkey see if the Omega 3s actually can help you. If not you can always go back on Kratom and taper off of Kratom, though I honestly do not believe kratom is actually prolonging the withdrawal symptoms (as in working as a SSRI) but rather the effects of kratom are masking the sensations of head zaps.

Obviously the safest bet would probably be go to a doctor and see if they can give you a SSRI with a long half life or a SSRI to taper from. Though I'm assuming Tramadol didn't come under a doctors care?

I have to go I'll be visiting this thread later today if you have any questions please feel free to leave them here and I'll get back to you or if someone else wants to they can put in their advice.
  #8  
Old 29-08-2011, 16:47
BlueSky11 BlueSky11 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 19-03-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 11
BlueSky11 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabolicScheme View Post
My opinion is you should add Omega 3 Fatty Acids to the mix, use Kratom for one more day and then try to cut it out cold turkey see if the Omega 3s actually can help you. If not you can always go back on Kratom and taper off of Kratom, though I honestly do not believe kratom is actually prolonging the withdrawal symptoms (as in working as a SSRI) but rather the effects of kratom are masking the sensations of head zaps.

Obviously the safest bet would probably be go to a doctor and see if they can give you a SSRI with a long half life or a SSRI to taper from. Though I'm assuming Tramadol didn't come under a doctors care?

I have to go I'll be visiting this thread later today if you have any questions please feel free to leave them here and I'll get back to you or if someone else wants to they can put in their advice.
My birdy always has Omega 3's at the house, just never made a point of taking them regularly. SWIM told her to start taking it yesterday, and she will be continuing from here on out.

The Tramadol WAS doctor prescribed but at the highest dose (400mg/day) which is much higher than my birdy's ever taken. Since she abused it and took a couple extra a few days, she didn't have enough left for a proper wean, so she called her doc again for one last script to wean & he approved. She did it over the course of 2 weeks and that was the end of July.

The zaps began then, and haven't stopped since. Some days they're really bad and other days more bearable. This is when my birdy got the idea to order Kratom which has been a great help. But then she feels dependent on it b/c the zaps come if she doesn't take it.

Today my birdy called in sick to work. She finally had her first free day in weeks yesterday as she's been under more stress than she's ever had, and SWIM thinks the break finally brought her body to a breaking point. She fell asleep at 6:30pm and woke up at 6:30am. At first, she thought it was good that her body caught up on the sleep, but she woke up in cold sweats, shaky and had zero energy. SWIM thinks her little birdy has just taken on too much and it's caught up with her.

She called her doctor today but can't get an appointment until tomorrow, but is afraid to miss anymore work. She does have a full script of Celexa that she was on last year and is considering taking a small dose each day to taper from, as Diabolic mentioned. My birdy is not against the idea of seeing her doctor, but it's the doctor that put her on the Tramadol to begin with, and now she is looking back feeling that it may not have been necessary, or a different med could've worked better for her sensitive system.

My birdy has endured many years of being a guinea pig under the "care" of many doctors, and it's only cause her more grief. There has only been one medication that has ever worked for her, and that is the Klonopin, although she understands the risks that lie there, and tries to take the lowest dose possible. Also, she has worked with her doctor on weaning off the med 3 times already so that she's not constantly dependent on it.

But these are the reasons that my birdy takes things into her own hands many times. She's lost a lot of trust in the medical community b/c of her experiences with bad doctors. The one who treated her like a "guinea pig" and experimented with 20+ different psych meds over the course of 2 years, ultimately led her to a breakdown and a 4-day stay in a Mood Disorder Clinic. The stay turned out beneficial, but what brought her there felt like a nightmare.

Anyway, SWIM couldn't be more appreciative at all the advice that you all are offering her birdy!! THANK YOU!!!

BlueSky11 added 77 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halor View Post
i apologize - i was mixing my acronyms.. well i guess you could call the method swiy does the Kratom a return on investment.. haha - i was trying to see your route of administration.

What is SWIY's ROI?

I am unfamiliar with Kratom and ROI's - but with my rabbit and certain types of meth while injecting - as he is coming off of the injection high(s) - even if he is still smoking or whatnot - his brain will zap his body and vise versa. Rabbit has never been able to determine why.. but if rabbit stops slamming long enough it goes away.

I would also suggest seeing a doctor though, these forums or online webmd help is NO substitute for a doctors care.
Thanks for the clarification Halor! My birdy's ROI is just the basic toss & wash. After reading the other posts, SWIM's beginning to think that her birdy's troubles have nothing to do with what she's currently on, and everything to do with the Tramadol that she weaned off a month ago. It wouldn't surprise SWIM at all that with her birdy's sensitive system and the high dose she was on that she's still going through withdrawals.

Last edited by BlueSky11; 29-08-2011 at 16:47. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #9  
Old 04-10-2011, 01:54
Larissa Larissa is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-10-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 2
Larissa is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 9, Level: 1 Points: 9, Level: 1 Points: 9, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

AFOAF had Guillian-Barre syndrome about 20 years ago and has had central nervous system weirdness ever since. (IE, intolerance to cold, numbness/tingling in extremities, sensitivity to things that are too warm) When she went on Cymbalta a couple years ago to combat--ironically--nerve pain (not depression...? sheesh), she didn't notice any benefit for the purpose it was prescribed. However, her doc insisted she continue for a few months. She quit taking it then...brain zaps were debilitating once she quit taking that stuff. Soooo in desperation, she ordered kratom as she heard it would help the zaps and twitches. Yay, it worked. She has wondered if kratom has any odd effects for those with Guillian-Barre or Epstein Barr (as she was told that they are 1st cousins in the auto-immune disease world). So far she's had great results with the zaps finally subsiding. She thanks God. And people who have shared so kindly.
  #10  
Old 12-10-2011, 17:57
BlueSky11 BlueSky11 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: 19-03-2011
Female from United States
Posts: 11
BlueSky11 is an unknown quantity at this point
Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1 Points: 35, Level: 1
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Re: HELP!! What is causing brain/body zaps: Kratom, Clonazepam (Klonopin), or Caffei

Thank you Larissa! My boyfriend is actually on Cymbalta right now for back pain - I didn't know that it was prescribed for other uses than depression either. I just posted to someone else on a thread about Kratom & brain/body zaps. I believe that my birdy's were mostly a result of the Tramadol and weaning off too quick, but I still use Kratom regularly in small doses, but every now and then when I take too much, it CAN cause the same sensation on its own. I don't think this is common for most people, but my birdy has a pretty sensitive system so it's not all that surprising for her.

She originally ordered the Kratom as a way to help ease getting off the Tram, and although it did work, it wasn't until she put herself back on a very low dose of an AD (Celexa) and slowly weaned off that the zaps truly calmed down. It's amazing how drugs that mess with your serotonin can cause such unsettling side effects!! But thank god we've both found natural alternatives and relief for our friends

Share this on:

Tags
caffeine, kratom, opiates, tramadol, withdrawals

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kratom Alfa Drug Articles 24 18-04-2014 10:22

» New Threads
Colorado Deaths Stoke Worries...
Last post by detoxin momma
8 Replies, 117 Views
why is my benzo tolerance so high?
Last post by Gibson4rock
9 Replies, 166 Views
Stupid Question Alert!
Last post by gmeziscool2354
4 Replies, 105 Views
IBOGAINE Treatment for Heroin...
Last post by D0pe
3 Replies, 67 Views
Eating Disorders & Addictions
Last post by Trying Again
13 Replies, 618 Views
CBD Rip Off!
Last post by Potter
6 Replies, 93 Views
How to save your teeth from...
Last post by gnomebe
28 Replies, 2,901 Views
40.000 inactive accounts deleted
Last post by Alfa
10 Replies, 466 Views
Why hasn't my tolerance gone down...
Last post by Trying Again
7 Replies, 203 Views
Seroquel transition to zyphrexa,...
Last post by Trying Again
3 Replies, 60 Views
» New Wiki Articles

Sitelinks: Information:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:30.


Copyright: SIN Foundation 2003 - 2014, All rights reserved
"Wiki" powered by VaultWiki v3.0.20 PL 1.