'Everything is Good!' or is it?

[djama]

Several times in 'altered states' I have had the observation that 'everything is good' ie the perception of a cosmos entirely without negatives. It has also seemed to me that this was a truly comprehensive experience not a partial experience, eg 'everything here and now is good' or I'm only seeing the good things. Has anybody else made this observation in an altered state?

[Silence_Inc]

yep, i think almost everyone has had this kind of experience. some more than others, others deeper and more pofound than most of us.

when the ego of right/wrong subsides ... total acceptation of life happens.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Silence_Inc

yep, i think almost everyone has had this kind of experience. some more than others, others deeper and more pofound than most of us. when the ego of right/wrong subsides ... total acceptation of life happens.

So what about negatives then - are they real or not?

[Silence_Inc]

i don't believe anything is real ... it's what you believe it to be.

the trouble with these talks are the fact that we use words - and that we talk about an experience/meeting with the unspeakable. the moment where one nomore is dreamming, but feels wide awake - with a clear view on how the cosmos really works - or the message it beholds behind the curtain of the ego. constructs of good / bad.

everything just IS at that moment - not good nor bad - and it feels damn GOOD!



there are still things that might be called bad - but when you accept them to just be - there - as they are - a spasm of space/time after millions of years of evolution ... well - you just accept that thing to be. and you don't call it persé bad. you just look at it.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Silence_Inc

i don't believe anything is real ... it's what you believe it to be.

I was hit by a car once - whether that was real or not had nothing to do with whether or not I believed in it. The attempt to subjectify the whole cosmos is no more balanced than the traditional attempt to objectify the whole cosmos. Our cosmos might be much more interesting than that - perhaps there is an interplay of objective and subjective elements - that gives us 'room to move' without dropping us into utter chaos.

everything just IS at that moment - not good nor bad - and it feels damn GOOD! ...there are still things that might be called bad - but when you accept them to just be - there - as they are - a spasm of space/time after millions of years of evolution ... well - you just accept that thing to be. and you don't call it persé bad. you just look at it.

I am well familiar with the state but I am pushing the usual boundaries because the state usually occurs only in relatively happy circumstances - I am asking what happens when faced with things not so happy, eg say a person is 'walking on sunshine' and they suddenly come across the body of a 3 year old that has been raped and murdered and thrown in a dumpster - how does the state deal with that? Is it really ok to just 'accept that the thing be' and to 'just look at it'?

[Solidly-here]

Everything is Good.

Everything is bad.

Spiritual life is trying to feel that my life is OK. If I perceive everything as bad, my life (also) will be perceived as bad.

If I can look at everything in my past as being OK, then I do not have to live in regret. One time a person CAN experience this Universal Life-is-good feeling is when one has a Crush. The entire world can look good. And, when the world looks good, it IS good.

So, clearly it is the Best possible way to live one's life. Most people feel this way at least some of the time (like when they are not contemplating one of the 100s of painful thoughts).

Enlightenment is seeing Life as good. The rest of us get to feel a pale form of that feeling.

[Silence_Inc]

Originally Posted by djama

I am well familiar with the state but I am pushing the usual boundaries because the state usually occurs only in relatively happy circumstances - I am asking what happens when faced with things not so happy, eg say a person is 'walking on sunshine' and they suddenly come across the body of a 3 year old that has been raped and murdered and thrown in a dumpster - how does the state deal with that? Is it really ok to just 'accept that the thing be' and to 'just look at it'?

i see your point. i just know that there is a way to make things for the better or worse. and it happens most of the times in the mind. i don't know the perfect answer to your 'what if' question cause i havn't experienced it yet. but i can imagin that even someone in such a blissfull state of nirvana (for example) would cry and feel pain, and really feel the horror that just happend. but i don't think he would get mad. i think that all the feelings that occur in the heart and gutt region still happen. but the mind region just isn't so active anymore. even at that point - there is nothing more to do about it. it happend and ,yes , that's life as it is.

and when your hit by a car you can undergo the circumstances - live out the pain ... or you can get angry at the driver - hate the nurse for not helping you enough - feeling like "this always happens to me!" ...

i just think that those feelings don't occur as much anymore - where the I person is to much involved. yes YOU had an accident YOU are in pain ... so ... there the story ends. now live it out. i think it's more like that.

[The Dr]

I agree with much of what you say Silence Inc - it is all about how one deals with the negative/painfull parts of life.

Some people are able to derive much more natural pleasure from life than others, but at some point everyone goes through a very bad time, for reasons totally beyond thier control.

As enquiring and concious beings, we need reasons behind things. People that belive in 'gods' (especially christian) have ways of explaining away bad stuff that happens indeffinatly (IE its all actually all OUR fault), but atheists are left with the rather empty and uncomforting thought that shit just happens. Total acceptance of this state could be called enlightenment.

Although the christian view isnt exactly easy (the acceptance of some kind of responsibility, if only for jesus 'saving' us all) it does give reasons. This is comforting, and therefore much easier to accept.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Silence_Inc

i see your point... i don't know the perfect answer to your 'what if' question cause i havn't experienced it yet.

Well, this question troubled me so much that I undertook a 'special experience' to seek the answer in a special state and I did find 'the perfect answer' it is quite difficult to understand and takes a bit to explain so I wrote the explanation into a short article and posted it as 'Beautiful Garbage' on the lulu.com website - it is free to download - you can have a read if you like.

yes YOU had an accident YOU are in pain .

That was my point. You said that what is real depends on what you believe - I offered the accident as something which was real irrespective of what I believed. The question about how to deal with it is a different question - and on that question I agree with your answer 100%.

[Solidly-here]

Life can be ALL Good, even with car accidents and murders.

Bad things happen to everyone. In fact, every single person is going to die. I remember a line from "All in the Family"; Gloria told her father that 1000s of people die from Cancer each year (trying to get his sympathy). Archie replied: "Would you be happier if they died by being pushed out of a window?"

I think one of the Biggest "Lies" in the world is: "Things are supposed to be good all of the time." If someone gets a Cold, it is painful. But, it can (and should) be a time to take life slowly for a few days (like a vacation at home). Slowing down once in a while is a good thing (more time to think about things, like being grateful that I don't have a Cold every week). Instead, many people push themselves (more than they should), thinking of this time with a Cold as (somehow) wasted. So, this person missed Life's opportunity to slow down and take it easy (and be grateful for generally good health).

There is NO pain quite like a toothache. When I have a toothache, I know that NOT having a toothache is the happiest feeling in the World. After my toothache goes away, I (quickly) forget my gratefulness for NOT having that toothache. Much of Life is like that.

Pain, in and of itself, is not bad. If I am injured in a car wreck, and I can't walk for months, this is an opportunity. And, most people will rise to the occasion, and participate in Physical Therapy, to regain their ability to walk. The "correct" attitude to have is: "With a little pain now, I will be whole again later." This attitude can transform the pain, from a punishment, into the means for a physical healing. Many people have a Spiritual Awakening through their pain, and realize that results take effort.

Playing Sports is an excellent way to get pain. The morning after a Football game, there are several pains coursing through my body. I look at it like a "trophy" for playing a good game. So, I enjoy the pain; I earned it. Long-distance runners have a lot of pains (feet, ankles, knees), yet, rain-or-shine they are running miles a day (and loving it, pain and all).

Ballet dancers have a saying: "Dance through the pain." This is used when she has an injured toe-nail (for instance). Stand on it, accept the pain, and transform it into paying more attention to the dancing. Some dancers have their best performances while in pain.

Pain can also be ignored. History is full of people who have been murdered, while enjoying the experience. Thousands of Martyrs have been tortured mercilessly, and have happily prayed through-out it all. And later, they die with a smile on their face.

Even a War does not have to be looked at as bad. People are killing one another; people are getting maimed; people are surrounded by chaos. A person can be happy that the war is going on (destroying an evil enemy), or they can detach from thinking about it, and concentrate on how they are going to live their life in spite of it.

All of life can be looked at as a Positive experience. At this point in my Spiritual path, I see (at least) 80% of life as Positive. With work, I can see more than that (but that is not my goal). I want to see life as a generally Positive experience. I do not need to have a Utopian view of life (at least not all of the time).

Reputation Comments on this post:

good post. that was really well thought-out.

[Silence_Inc]

djama,

you mentioned in the text at LULU.com that through a positive mdma experience one can have diffrent views on life as being positive (the absensce of positive --> leading to 'negative'). But for myself i have never experienced the state of nirvana through mdma. i see mdma as - like you say - 'pink coloured glasses' syndrome. this drugs induces chemical change in our brain. giving a boost at our serotonine level - wich gives somoene an experience of love and positivity ... yet - these perception happen most of the time on an ego basis (imo) ... you do get in contact with the heart region but you never get freed from the mind. all still undergo's the influence of the ego - cause it's the ego that says 'ALL is good' ... it excludes negativity but is still captivated in the 'yin and yang syndrome' ... with lsd it's diffrent ... you can have such a powerfull experience that the mind stops - and that the proces of thinking about life stops ... true nirvana. no mind ... at that point one just doesn't involve himself in constructs about life and just experiences the phenomena - good or bad ... it doesn't matter anymore. but because you are free'd from the ego - finally awake - it does feel good, it's blissfull.

so is this diffrent you think? true nirvana vs. mdma induced positivity ... or you think it's the same experience?

[djama]

Originally Posted by Silence_Inc

so is this diffrent you think? true nirvana vs. mdma induced positivity ... or you think it's the same experience?

My experiences actually came from special yoga exercises that included fasting and continuous meditations for days on end - the reason I included MDMA in the scenario was because descriptions I had heard from people who had used it were consistent with my experience. I did try MDMA once after my revelation to confirm that my speculation about its effects were accurate and I did find that it 'shut down' the ego mind and allowed free uncontaminated observation of the cosmos as it is, so 'yes' - although there is no guarantee that the effect it had on me is the same effect it has on others.

I did have a lot of experience with acid when I was young and found similar states produced there but only in the plateau stage after the peak - on e I experienced no hallucinagenic peak just clarity and positivity. If I managed to get the point across in Beautiful Garbage the positivity did not exclude negatives it simply does not see them since they are absences of things not presences of things and absences of things are not available to perception.

Also I think it is incomplete to equate Nirvana with no mind and inaction since surely an enlightened person could think and act if they wanted to, perhaps an enlightened person would even feel obliged to think and act - the people who are most frequently attributed with enlightenment from the past seemed to have done much thinking and acting.

[Pinkavvy]

the one truth to eternal happines ...
"it's all good"

[Solidly-here]

Nirvana . . . it's not that rare.

Nirvana comes, and goes. Most people feel it once in a while.

Nirvana is less of a feeling, and more of a LACK of certain thoughts. Since certain thoughts are almost-always present it is easy to "Ignore" Nirvana when it does come.

At the most basic level, Nirvana is the time when I am not suffering about anything. This can be as simple as those few seconds of peace when I look at a painting, and I am transported to a different level of understanding it. (Or having good sex, and the World fades away for a little while.)

Nirvana is when the mind stops processing ideas: The idea of Birth and Death, existence and non-existence, coming and going, self and other, one and the many.

The Buddha invented the 3 Dharma Seals (Dharma means teachings): Impermanence, Nonself and Nirvana. Each of these seals are ways my mind can perceive Life (or just seconds of my Life).

When I feel one of the 3 Seals, I experience all of them. So, Nirvana is felt as part of Impermanence, and also as a part of Nonself.

The first seal is Impermanence (does not last forever). People are impermanent, cars are impermanent, and so are houses, freeways, mountains, and (eventually) our Sun expands into a Red Giant star and burns-up the Earth itself.

Practice is to see that change is inevitable (birth, death, coming and going). The normal way to view life is in the Ideal of no-change (a marriage lasts forever, keep my life-time job, live in the same place). Then Change (itself) is seen as an enemy (just ask a recently-jilted lover, or a fired employee). A relationship is born, it lives, it dies.

So, Practice in Impermanence is being aware that nothing is forever, and that change is constant. Then, when daily changes happen, they are met with peace.

Everyone has awareness that SOME things are impermanent. We brush our teeth each day (so clean teeth are impermanent), we wash our clothes, we change our clothes each day, we throw-away clothes which are beyond usefulness. When I brush my teeth, I can use the seal of Impermanence to appreciate the fact that my teeth have gotten dirty, so I "get" to re-clean them (instead of being angry that I have to waste my time doing it each day).

The second seal is Nonself (everyone is a part of me). This is called "Interbeing" . . . I am a part of the Universe, and everything in it (and that the Universe is a part of me). Being stuck in "self" is thinking: "that" is NOT me. This is discrimination. If someone agrees with one of our opinions, (in a way) they are me. When someone disagrees with my (current) view about something, they are deluded (or stupid, or ignorant). Through this thinking, suffering is created.

Nonself in Practice is achieved by realizing that everything is made-up of random atoms arranged in such a way to be ME (and the rest of the Universe). Each minute of life, cells are born inside of me, and cells die. So, I change. Therefore, I have no "perfect" self-ness.

Some people experience Nonself during sex. I get so close, that there is NO me . . . it's just US. Spiritual Practice is to feel this one-ness more often. When I am a part of the object-of-my-perception, I am released (for a few seconds) from my "trap" of self-ness. I have felt this deeply when watching a Sunset on the beach (I am part of this Sun, fading away for the day).

Nirvana is present when the mind is NOT discriminating (e.g., this is true, and if you don't believe it, you are wrong), is not stuck in self-ness (this is ME, that is YOU), and is NOT grasping (this is mine, that is yours).

The hardest thing about Nirvana is noticing it when it is present. Many people Meditate for years, and miss the few seconds of Nirvana which are present in their sitting. Many people think that Nirvana is a one-time realization (like Enlightenment, for instance) which overpowers all other thoughts. This "steals" Nirvana from these people. They ignore the bits of Nirvana that they might have noticed, because they believe Nirvana is just an Ideal (for the super-Spirituals).

Truly, Nirvana is a part of every day. As I drift off into sleep, I pass into a Nirvana; all of the suffering, discrimination, analysis (and ...) are gone, and my mind settles into non-thinking. Then (after that dose of Nirvana) I am asleep, with the whole World of dreams (and whatever else my mind does during sleep).

[djama]

Originally Posted by Solidly-here

Nirvana . . . more of a LACK of certain thoughts.
Nirvana is when the mind stops processing ideas:

I am assuming you are taking the word Nirvana in the sense of a type of Enlightenment not in the sense of 'annihilation'. Are you sure that a person stops processing ideas then? That would mean that an enlightened person would not be able to think. That is certainly not my experience although the thinking is of quite a different quality.

Nirvana is present when the mind is ... not stuck in self-ness (this is ME, that is YOU),

I find theory of the dissolution of personal boundaries in ecstatic states interesting - how do you think an enlightened person might explain the difference between 'you' and 'me'? Are we supposed to believe that there is no legitimate distinction between me and you - I dont even know where in the world you are or what you look like and yet I am very aware of where I am in the world and what I look like, so there are obviously very distinct differences between us.

And I still dont see what all of this has to do with whether the cosmos is actually all-positive or not perhaps you could tie it back in for me.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Pinkavvy

the one truth to eternal happines ...
"it's all good"

So then how do you deal with torture, rape, child abuse, etc - is that 'all good' and if it is how do you justify that assessment - if it is not then how can it all be good?

The reason I bring this is because I share the 'everything is good' observation with you but I also realised that bad things were truly bad and that somehow these 2 facts had to reconcile and that is what I've managed to do.

[Silence_Inc]

when you are in a state of nirvana - thoughts have stopped (completely! - i have had it twice on lsd) ... you don't call anything good nor evil at that point - casue the mind just doesn't work that way anymore - there is no 'calling names happening' or ' scaling one thing to another thing' ... you are just alive - experiencing fluctuations of the cosmos. So - rape or child abuse isn't called GOOD ... nor is it called bad. The reason that one wants to understand the fact that 'everything is good or bad' - or just plain 'GOOD' in a state of drug induced perception ... IS looking still with the eyes of the ego. and when one is in nirvana - the need to understand or the need to scale is completely gone. so if you experience a state where you mind says - everything is good - it's not nirvana - it's your drug induced psychosis / ego calling everything good. in true nirvana you don't call anything nothing - you just float through all the phenomena.

so yeah - rape is bad - even when i take lsd - yeah flowers are pretty - even f i take lsd ... but ARE they BAD and ARE they PRETTY ... or what ARE they REALLY?!

[Solidly-here]

djama. I have a feeling that you and I are discussing different things.

As I saw you talking about Nirvana, I responded with the Classic Buddhist definition (as filtered through my mind). I think I re-defined it pretty well, but you have come back, NOT getting it.

1) Nirvana is not a full-time feeling (or experience). The mind does not live in one state (especially Nirvana), it is changing (almost constantly).

2) Nirvana, as such, is a state that a person falls into before sleep.

3) It is a state where the mind is not processing things in a way which creates suffering. So, at this state, the mind is NOT processing reactions (to murders, to rapes, to wars ... OR, to a birth, to a fantasic time).

As I said before: "At the most basic level, Nirvana is the time [even a few seconds] when I am not suffering about anything. This can be as simple as those few seconds of peace when I look at a painting, and I am transported to a different level of understanding it, [those few seconds are Nirvana ... NOT judging the picture, just experiencing it]. ... Nirvana is when the mind stops processing [certain] ideas: The idea of Birth and Death, existence and non-existence, coming and going, self and other, one and the many." [These are all judgments about what something is, not just experiencing what is happening around you.]

One of the times when Silence_Inc has felt a clear Nirvana is: "when you are in a state of nirvana - thoughts have stopped (completely! - i have had it twice on lsd) ... you don't call anything good nor evil at that point [because you are NOT reacting to the thought, you are just experiencing it, without judging it] - cause the mind just doesn't work that way anymore - there is no 'calling names happening' [good or bad] or ' scaling one thing to another thing' [comparing IS judging too] ... you are just alive [experiencing that particular event]."

To say it another way, you can tell when you are NOT in Nirvana, like when you are thinking good or bad about something. You are judging whether something is good or bad (putting a label on it). Judging is the opposite of Nirvana.

So, any time you bring up something, and then tell us it's bad, you are demonstrating one of the many times we are not in Nirvana. Likewise, saying that something is good is ALSO labelling, and not a time when you are feeling Nirvana.

Part of my Practice is: "Do not judge things too much." I spend time each day, trying to stop my mind from plopping labels (good or bad) on things I see and hear. In this sense, I am un-learning (turning-off my Analytical mind). There is a peace in judging things less (save my analyzing for something else). Nirvana (for what it's worth) lives in that existence.

So, Nirvana is NOT analyzing, not judging, not labeling. An example of finding Nirvana in an everyday situation: I listen deeply to my friend, as he talks to me. As he relates things to me, I pay attention to him. I try to NOT let my mind go-off into its own story (for instance, "Gee, I would have done that like ___"). This way, I am truly present for him. Listening carefully is a gift. My friend feels it. And, while I am just experiencing the conversation, I can rest in Nirvana. The rest of the World is gone, and I am just here, listening to my friend, what a wonderful thing. It is a Miracle to live a minute or 2 in the Present Moment. And, then, with Practice, I can achieve this state again-and-again (when I want to experience it).

The Pull into Spiritual Practice is that it will provide something I want. In my case, I want to live Life fully (for hours each week); the rest of the time . . . I just live Life as it comes. Another thing I want is: Be Happy several hours a week. So, I do several things which make me Happy. Then, while I am doing them, I remember: "Hey, this is Fun!" Then, Poof, it's more Fun, and I get more nourishment. And, Nirvana can easily be found in Fun (the rest of the World fades away, because what I'm doing is a Blast). This Fun-ness wipes-out my Analytical mind, and it's replaced with my "It's a Party" mind. Part of this Party is NOT analyzing things, just enjoying them. Poof, Nirvana.

Nirvana can be found in many other situations, too. It's just a state of mind.

I am sure that 90% of the world (maybe including you) does NOT really want to feel in a way that is past judging things. For this HUGE majority: "Fine. Live your life."

Nirvana is a place I create, when my Ego is not in the way. After all, Who am I, to tell you that something is good (or bad)? It is just my opinion. All opinions are subjective.

Likewise, who am I to tell myself that something is good or bad? There are a few times when I MUST judge things (especially when I am around someone "un-safe"), but the rest of the time, there is NO reason to have my mind constantly judging this and judging that.

For example, someone tells me that he read that a man was murdered. He was killed because his battered wife was afraid he was going to kill her (and shot him after a severe beating). Non-Nirvana responses to this are: (1) She was bad for doing that; or (2) He deserved to get killed. A Nirvana response is: "Oh, that happened, OK." . . . This is an almost silly example, but it illustrates the lack of judging the event, just listening, and experiencing the "news."

Even for a fully Enlightened person, Nirvana is a temporary state, felt at different times of the day. It defines a state of mind, NOT a way of life. Nirvana comes, and quickly goes. With Practice (and interest in it) Nirvana comes back more often.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Silence_Inc

when you are in a state of nirvana - thoughts have stopped (completely! - i have had it twice on lsd) ... you are just alive - experiencing fluctuations of the cosmos. or just plain 'GOOD' in a state of drug induced perception ...

Hang on a minute - didnt you just say your Nirvana was a drug induced perception? Twice?

...when one is in nirvana - everything is good - it's not nirvana - it's your drug induced psychosis / ego calling everything good.

As opposed to your drug induced state - my state, by the way, was not induced by drugs at all but the traditional methods of fasting, concentration and meditation.

...in true nirvana you don't call anything nothing - you just float through all the phenomena.

This nails exactly what I think is the biggest problem with this type of definition - if we are taking Nirvana/Enlightenment as the ultimate state of human consciousness. Do you really think that the ultimate human experience - the best that a human being can possibly achieve is a state that is completely passive?

Would it not be more 'ultimate' to have that same level of consciousness and also seek to right the wrongs of the world rather than simply passively accept them? Did not Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tse, Sankara, Patanjali, Ramana Maharshi or whoever you think had it together, seek to right the wrongs of the world - even if it is just to enlighten people about the true nature of enlightenment (like what you are doing now)?

[djama]

Originally Posted by Solidly-here

djama. I have a feeling that you and I are discussing different things. As I saw you talking about Nirvana, I responded with the Classic Buddhist definition (as filtered through my mind). I think I re-defined it pretty well, but you have come back, NOT getting it.

I agree we are talking about different things - I presumed people were addressing the topic, ie 'Everything is good - or is it?' Because of this I assumed that respondents were using the more flexible definition of the term Nirvana as it is often used in modern culture to denote states of Bliss, Ecstasy, etc in which one often experience reality as entirely positive.

The traditional Buddhist definition which is more like 'annihilation' including the state one enters after death is quite a different sort of state and the all-positive observation that this thread is attempting to explore and examine is not really relevant to such a state. This is principally because such valuations as good and bad are used to determine parameters for initiating action and initiating action after one is dead is probably leaving it a little late.

If you wish to discuss the nature of Nirvana I would be happy to do so but you may need to start a thread where that is the topic.

[Solidly-here]

Well, Djama, what are you looking for?

I have discussed seeing life as good, versus seeing life as bad.

I have discussed Nirvana, and related it to what (I thought) you were talking about.

Now, finally you say that Nirvana does not matter to what you are talking about.

Please define the parameters of your interest. Maybe someone can help you.

[djama]

Originally Posted by Solidly-here

Well, Djama, what are you looking for?
I have discussed seeing life as good, versus seeing life as bad.
I have discussed Nirvana, and related it to what (I thought) you were talking about. Now, finally you say that Nirvana does not matter to what you are talking about. Please define the parameters of your interest. Maybe someone can help you.

In post #18 you gave an expansive treatment of traditional 'Nirvana' (by your own admission) in post #15 I treated the question of the ambiguity of that term in modern culture and clarified that it was the 'other' definition I was referring to. As early as post #5 I was putting the test of how does that state deal specifically with the great travesties that do occur in this world. And in response to your detailed post I clarified the problem further in post #20 and asked the question: is a passive, all-accepting state really the ultimate a human being can muster? It seems to me that no-one has yet answered the question: how do people who hold the all-positive state as the an ultimate human condition reconcile that with appropriate action in respect of the heinous crimes that do occur in this world?

I apologise that I did not make this clear at the outset but I was gradually finding a direction to head in through the thread itself - of course your treatment of Nirvana did address my original post asking for personal experiences of all-positive states. I am sorry if I offended you - so how do you deal with child molesters, etc that is consistent with acceptance of all?

[Solidly-here]

Shit happens.

I deal with Child Molesters pretty much like I deal with Suicide Bombers, who are killing our young men in Iraq on a nearly-daily basis.

God did NOT try to make this a perfect World. Jesus, Himself, called Satan the Prince of this World. Many people are inspired to do Bad things. Many people lie, cheat, steal. Other people Kill, maim, beat up, molest ... Now, this is NOT going to degenerate into a Sermon.

There are times when I think about the damage inflicted by Child Molesters. There are times when I may shed a tear about Suicide Bombers. There are times when I am fully satisfied that this World is a wonderful place to live.

It seems to me that your point is: "How can a compassionate person stand to be happy at all, when certain shitty things are happening (somewhere in the World)?" Because, if I do not personally know a molestation victim, then how am I supposed to feel? If I DO know a victim (and I am one myself), then I KNOW how I can have compassion for a victim. I also know how to have compassion for the perpetrator. I do not hate my molester. Why do I need to waste my time, living with hate in my heart? Well, I don't need to. Instead, I LOVE myself ... I like myself ... I enjoy myself.

If you want to walk around, carrying a grudge against certain people (who you do not even know), that is your business. If you're pissed at someone who has hurt you, well, that's at least a better reason. But why? WHILE someone is hurting you, it is perfectly reasonable to hate him (or be angry at him for what is happening to you). Later, after the incident is over, why not Let Go (especially if you're never going to see that bozo again)?

When I am hating someone, he does not feel it. The only person who feels my hate is ME. So, I carry-on a grudge, and I am the only victim. I lose my OK-enough Life, for a Life filled with hate for something which occurred a long time ago (or, did NOT occur to me at all). If I did this, the Molester would be winning, still, many years later.

A story: 2 soldiers, who were POWs during WWII met at a reunion. One asked: "Do you still hate your guards for what they did to you?" The other answered: "Yes, I'll hate them forever." . . . The first one said: "Well, then, they still have you in prison, don't they?"

Forgiveness helps. I forgive MYSELF, for putting up with all that shit in my past (those people who have hurt my feelings, hurt my body, hurt my spirit). I forgive myself for being so ignorant that I stayed there and allowed those bozos to do whatever they did to me. I forgive myself for putting up with things today, which I am (still) not aware-enough to avoid.

There are MANY people who have put up with MUCH more than I ever have had to put up with. And some of these people are living wonderful lives. This gives me hope that I, too, can truly Let Go of worrying about all of the Shit in the World, and get on with having a blast with my life.

Compassion is an answer. I have compassion for myself. While I do not always do the best that I can, I am an OK-enough person. Since I am OK, I shouldn't try to dream-up reasons to feel less-OK.

It is even MORE silly to hate people I don't know. Then I am losing my serenity over nothing. Yes, there are many Child Molesters out there. But if I do not know who they are, how do I know who to hate? And EVEN if I hated some of them, why would that make the World any less of a wonderful place to live?

If I do not know a Molester, why should I let the "fact" that such people exist ruin my peace?

Over the years, I have had many people who have hurt my feelings. This is life. Especially in school, people could be pretty mean: Bullies beat people up, for instance. Should I hate all of them too? Even though I only know one or 2 people who used to be bullies?

As I said: Shit happens. I can either think that all-of-life sucks, or not. I choose NOT.

So, your Question is: "is a passive, all-accepting state really the ultimate a human being can muster?"

This Question needs more work. If I were all-accepting of whatever happens, that would not (necessarily) make me passive too.

All-accepting (to my mind) means that I know what is actually happening (all over the World), but I am inviting it to happen (and the worse, the better).

A better way to see this is not-resisting. Things happen, but I do not actively resist them. Of course, one reason to not resist shitty things is: I am not seeing it happen.

[djama]

I really think we are talking about different things - I was exploring a discrepancy that arises out of the observation of the state where 'everything is good' you are talking about a state where 'everything is neutral'. This state - if it is held to be an obective view of the world - raises a different discrepancy but it is a different problem.

[Solidly-here]

My last Post was NOT about living in a neutral state. One thing I said was: "There are MANY people who have put up with MUCH more than I ever have had to put up with. And some of these people are living wonderful lives. This gives me hope that I, too, can truly Let Go of worrying about all of the Shit in the World, and get on with having a blast with my life."

Having a Blast is NOT neutral. It is a view that Life is good, or even Great.

You are stating obstacles to feeling good ("How can someone think that ___ is good?"). I am tearing-down those obstacles to feeling good. When there are NO obstacles to feeling good, then a person will (probably) feel GOOD.

This is your Thread subject.

So, again, I ask you: "What the hell do you want???"

You have NOT been clear. And I am writing my Heart out, discussing intense things. It is not very kind of you to blow me off, considering the fact that you are having a difficult time trying to zero-in on what you want in the First Place.

So, if possible, why don't you explain (in some depth) how you feel about the subject, instead of just muttering about an abstract concept you have in your head?