regrowing the nerve connections

[Wyborowa]

So my one doctor told me that there's a medicine out there that promotes the regrowth of nerve connections in the brain. Drugs such as heroin, pot, coke, etc. destroy these nerve connections, and supposedly theres a prescription drug out there that promotes/helps the brain regrow nerve cell connections...

anyone ever hear of such a thing? i've having a hard time finding info online....

[Alfa]

Either your doctor is a complete idiot or you have not understood him well. Heroin & pot do not destroy nerve connections. I do not know about cocaine. If he'd say that xtc does that, I'd say very well possible. But a drug that regenerates nerve cell connections? I'd be most interested to learn about that. If it has no carcinogenic(causing cancer) qualities, I'd say bring it on.

[sands of time]

Could you post the name of the medication? Without that, it's hard to tell you if it's effective.

[dreamatrix]

It is said cannabis even stimulates the growth of new neurons hehe , i have included a link to the article and there is a link to the paper about it. as for the rest i sure can believe coke turns your brain in to a pile of mush same for xtc abuse, hero and there by i am more pointing towards opium has been used also for thousands of years , as a sedative and recreative drug apart form addiction i doubt it will do anything to your internal cpu

http://english.ohmynews.com/articlev...53377&rel_no=1

[Richard_smoker]

The human brain has an amazing ability to recover from even the most repetitive assaults by drugs. It has been shown in several studies that new connections generate from activities that stimulate mental activity and learning.

The first prerequisite is that you need to stop doing whatever activity is assaulting your brain. This is such a huge, open topic that it really depends upon what types of brain activities you're talking about. Is it memory? If so, is it short-term, long-term? Is it emotional? Are you depressed? Trouble sleeping, energy, etc?

If you're depressed, then SSRI's (zoloft, prozac, celexa) can stimulte new axonal connections (and possibly growth) into your cortex, and there are no studies that I have ever seen to indicate that these new connections aren't permanent.

Interestingly enough, adderall has been shown to stimulate new axonal pathways in children with ADHD. This is very controversial, but again, the paths last beyond the adderall therapy.

Generally, since this science is very new and thus full of pseudoscientific ideas, there are some principles that just about any doctor will give you for assistance in 'regenerating' normal brain activity.

These include: normal sleep pattern, aerobic exercise (at least 3 times a week, but even if you can only do it once a week on saturday, a good 30 minute run/walk has been shown to be far superior to zero times per week), reading, doing cross-word puzzles, any other kind of word game should work as long as it is stimulating, GET A HOBBY! (can't stop doing drugs without a replacement!), abstinence from alcohol and other depressants, and I would have to say that unless you're exercising 3-4 times a week that even abstaining from marijuana would be necessary if you're really looking for a jump-start in mental performance.

Reputation Comments on this post:

as always, quite useful info

[Richard_smoker]

Aside from the antidepressants and the controversial report on amphetamines in kids, there are many other drugs being touted as neuro-protectants from oxygen-deprivation and memory-enhancers such as cholinergic drugs (normally prescribed to alzheimer's patients). Some examples are piracetam and family--aniracetam, pramiracetam, etc. and choline itself in various forms.

I don't believe in these chemicals, per se. I think that there is evidence that piracetam can help protect the brain against ischemic attacks (low oxygen), but I don't know how useful this is in everyday life. If you're serious about getting better, then I would recommend a complete multi-vitamin with meals, minerals and fatty acids (including choline), and you can try piracetam as well.

Aside from piracetam, I wouldn't waste my money on any of the other so-called brain-builders. They just don't have enough proof, and it's likely that taking strong cholinergic agonists like alzheimer's drugs will actually cause your CNS to develop a tolerance to the drug and decrease its own production of acetylcholine.

Piracetam can be taken in very large doses without harm. You want to start out front-loading with a large dose and then back down for maintenance. Take up to 4 grams/day for a week, and then back down to about 1.5 grams/day or even 800mg/day. You'll know when you're taking too much because you'll be shitting water and have abdominal cramps.

Anyone have any other advice? this is a good topic. I'm very interested in this and any experience would be nice to include here. Oh, and don't pay attention to anything I've talked shit about in this post. Please feel free to post your minds. My bias is weighted on not only some skeptical new studies, but also my own experience... and failure to improve cognition with any of these 'enhancers' with the possible exception of piracetam.

[sands of time]

You guys have a point about the Alzheimers drugs, but I don't know how far they can actually go. They are mainly used for slowing down the progression of destruction, not stimulating regrowth. I'm gonna try and summerize they're action, please point out my errors as this is coming from my vague memory bank....

One method is to slow down the overactivation of glutamine, which is theorized to lead to destruction of neurons. These are called NMDA inhibitors. Some others work by neutralizing the enzymes that break down acetylcholine. These actions will do nothing to regrow damaged brain tissue, at least that is my guess.

Many doctors will tell you that it is impossible to regenerate neurons, but there is alot of recent evidence that says that's not true. If doctors are saying you can't regrow neurons, than I don't see how there can be a medicine that is precribed for this purpose.

I'm a bit confused about the amphetamine suggestion. If I'm not mistaken, amphetamine is neurotoxic. It might stimulate your brain, but it seems as though this would be more negative in the long run.

[nanobrain]

NGF's are becoming a topic of indepth investigation in major centres all over. afaik, while there has not been a definitive regrowth agent identified, the breakthrough may not be all that far in the future.

now, unlike Dick_smoker, i was able to find ton of research on beneficial aspects of noootropics, and have found many of them exceedingly valuable in maintaining and improving cognition. these include:

piracetam
l-depenyl (selegeline, an irreversible MAOI)
bromocriptine (DA agonist)
l-phenylalanine (essential acid DA precursor)
Hydergine (ergot deriv by Hofmann)
GH3 (procaine)
centrophenoxine (potent cholinergic)

there is a bunch of others more or less effective - eugeroics deserve a mention, but the above drugs have significant and noticable effects, definitely discernable from placebo.

there is also evidence that the ACHE inhibitors also improve cognition in healthy subjects.

i should also mention that i am deirectly involved in development and experimental / human clinical trials of an agent that will have neuronal regrowth activity.

[Richard_smoker]

Sands, nerves do regenerate. Axons can grow at a speed of 1mm per day naturally. You're right about the alzheimer's meds. And also about the amphetamines: this was a recent study that applied a new MRI technique that shows you the entire length, & direction of axons. Nobody knows why the new connections were formed, but it is thought to be important that the subjects were kids and for whatever it's worth, the results were only short-term and the kids were not re-scanned years after discontinuing the adderall. Since this kinda goes against accepted facts, I heard someone near me cough and whisper "Bullshit" during the presentation. So, don't accept this as fact.

now, unlike Dick_smoker, i was able to find ton of research on beneficial aspects of noootropics, and have found many of them exceedingly valuable in maintaining and improving cognition. these include:

piracetam
l-depenyl (selegeline, an irreversible MAOI)
bromocriptine (DA agonist)
l-phenylalanine (essential acid DA precursor)
Hydergine (ergot deriv by Hofmann)
GH3 (procaine)
centrophenoxine (potent cholinergic)

there is a bunch of others more or less effective - eugeroics deserve a mention, but the above drugs have significant and noticable effects, definitely discernable from placebo.

there is also evidence that the ACHE inhibitors also improve cognition in healthy subjects.

i should also mention that i am deirectly involved in development and experimental / human clinical trials of an agent that will have neuronal regrowth activity.

OK. sorry, nano. Two things:
1) I didn't even think about NGF's. There are NGF's already in the body used to extend axon tips. I don't know how you would put them into someone's brain because they work locally around the axonal membrane. Any research on these is super hot right now, and whoever comes up with something is gonna become a gazillionaire reattaching nerve endings to 'dead' extremities and fixing people like Christopher Reeve.

2) I guess I didn't elaborate on my previous searches and research. I've actually read all the studies on nootropics in mice, people, and the handful on healthy subjects. My problem is not that I haven't found any research, it's that I am skeptical about the validity of many of the experiments themselves. If you notice, most of the 'healthy subject' reports have only a very small number of participants and they don't test for long-term benefits and AFAIK there aren't any imaging studies like PET scans or the new MRI-axon-scan (forget what it's called).

This is an area that is very difficult to quantify or study because of several reasons. Let's start with research problems like bias. First of all, it's very, very difficult to study something like cognition and memory because researchers can easily interfere with the results without even realizing it. For example, let's say you give a brand new subject a puzzle or maze to figure out, and he performs poorly on the task (cause he's new to the puzzle's concept). Now, when you give him the test again, he will most likely improve his performance due to several possible phenomena: memory, comfort with the test, trying to make the researcher "happy," different moods, etc. Funny as it sounds, this also applies to rats and mice. Of course, scientists come up with different methods trying to make sure that they're not guilty of these biases, but true prevention of learned improvement in the tests is very difficult to attain, and gets even more confusing when you try to use different test formats and/or contents.

Placebo Effect. Placebo effects are found in nearly every type of drug tested. The placebo effect becomes more pronounced when certain conditions are present. Some of them that come to mind are: when the desired effect(s) of the drug is to change something that the human mind is already capable of changing without assistance, when the desired effect is something that the patient is actively seeking treatment for (in other words, something the person is passionate about or if emotions like competitiveness play a role in 'why' the person would like to 'fix' their 'problem'), when the desired effects are reported in a totally subjective manner (I know that most reports aren't like this, but there are several which pop-up on medline that ARE just subjective reports! i.e. "25% found that their vocabulary had significantly increased over the weekend")

Enough about that junk though... Nano, you say that you are involved in research, can you give me some human research that you would actually put stock into about nootropics? Or any kind of personal experience with any of these? I'm very interested in this... I'm not trying to discredit anything. I just wanted you to know what some of my reservations were.

About the drugs you listed:
piracetam - this is one that I think might have actually worked on me. it has been researched more than any other cognitive enhancer AFAIK, and I believe that it worked when I tried it while preparing for a standardized test (memorization of infinite facts, application of memorized materials, regurgitation of fact).

l-deprenyl (selegeline) aka "(-) propynylmethamphetamine" - THIS drug is very interesting indeed! You know that selegeline actually breaks down into methamphetamine in the body!??* I have always assumed that the methamphetamine is what causes increased cognition. Prior to this whole "nootropic" interest, there were some drug addicts who actively sought-out this drug because it's not controlled in the US.

bromocriptine (DA agonist) - I don't know about this one because of its destination in the brain. It's used as a prolactin-inhibitor (In the pituitary, dopamine is aka "Prolactin Inhibiting Hormone") . I know it will prevent women (and men) from lactating.

l-phenylalanine (essential acid DA precursor)-->yes, this one and l-tyrosine will both act like speed. I know that l-tyrosine is a direct agonist of NorEpinephrine. Ephedrine is another direct agonist. Amphetamine is an indirect agonist. (I may have confused the indirect & direct, but I know I have them grouped together correctly)

centrophenoxine (potent cholinergic): I've tried this one. It's one of the anticholinesterase inhibitors that I'm leery of. If anyone has experienced positive memory effects from this one, please post here. I remember this one is VERY POTENT! I got GI side effects from the smallest dose.

Hydergine (ergot deriv by Hofmann) - I think this one gave me a panic attack. don't know anything else about it.

GH3 (procaine) - I remember this one just starting to emerge when I gave up on nootropics. Nano (or anyone else)--Do you have any experience??

Also, just wanted to say that when medline is searched, there are TONS of studies that support things like ginko biloba, ginseng, caffeine, and nicotine.

Thanks for all the input. I love this thread. If there really is anything at ALL out there that will increase cognition, memory, or recall in any way, I WANT TO START TAKING IT!!!

*I anticipated that people would call bullshit on selegiline turning into meth. So here's a link: http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart....htm?E+mystore

Reputation Comments on this post:

	nice post(s)

[sands of time]

What I ment was most doctors feel that nerve cells don't just regrow. When a brain cell dies, theres nothing to replace it. I don't think this is the case, and evidence is starting to suggest that brain cells can regrow.

[Richard_smoker]

Oh yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. The word "grow" can mean 2 totally different things: increasing in size vs. increasing in number. I thought you meant grow=increasing in size... because branching out and making new connections would be an example of increasing the size of neurons without increasing the number, and this would result in improved brain performance as well.

[Wyborowa]

So if i was looking forward to increasing my ability to stay focused on my notes while i study them and increase my memory, meaning my ability to memorize, which would be a better choice? I'm a college student going in my first semester, going for Nursing, 18 yr old Male. Right now i take Suboxone for maintenence and Wellbutrin. l-deprenyl or Piractem?

[Richard_smoker]

I'd say Piracetam. I wouldn't advise mixing the welbutrin with l-deprenyl. I don't think they're safe to mix.

[nanobrain]

l-dep should not be coadministered with suboxone and wellbutrin. the latter 2 should be discontinued.

all that aside, there is now a significant amount of anecdotal evidence that ayahuasca proper has neurogenerative properties and 'seems to regrow and grow new neurons and synaptic connections in realtime to enable the system deal w/the experience'.

this is from a shamanic healer type who while young knows both his chem and bio and is a master w/extractions.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Nice comment on ayahuasca--good food for thought in a hungry brain!!!

[daeron]

Originally Posted by nanobrain

all that aside, there is now a significant amount of anecdotal evidence that ayahuasca proper has neurogenerative properties and 'seems to regrow and grow new neurons and synaptic connections in realtime to enable the system deal w/the experience'.

me not happy! caveman wants more info!

i seriously doubt the potential of unstandardised MAOi/trypamine mixture for any regenerative properties. to be honest i use piracetam for that purpose, but i am yet to see any change in my brain/behaviour.

my best bet atm are vits with free radical inhibition props, ginkgo flavonoides and piracetam.(although i will repeat for the Nth time, be careful w mixing high dosages of ginkgo w stimulants)

[Unsolved]

Take it from someone who has had to study human biology and nerve tissues extensivly for school. Any damage done to nerves however it's done is usually permament and not reversible by a chemical or pill. Why do you think they are working so hard on stem cell research?? At least this would allow the chance of replacing old/damaged tissue with new tissue.

[Richard_smoker]

Also, I hate to be the negative one here, but any oral S-S disulfide bonded free-radical scavengers will be broken down in the gut prior to absorption, thus their ability to scavenge free-radicals in the bloodstream (as in decreasing arterial plaques, etc in atherosclerotic patients) as well as through the CSF (cerebro-spinal fluid) is nil. The molecules are far too large to establish circulation in either blood or CSF.

That is not to discount the value of a good diet. Proper balance must be maintained with adequate vitamins, minerals, and trace elements as well. Deficiencies can lead to cellular inability to properly scavenge oxygen radicals and other by-products of mitochondrial respiration. But to think that one can 'super-charge' by taking mega doses of anything is a giant leap of faith...

Like I said, I do NOT want to discourage anyone from their beliefs... the ability for vitamins, sucrose, lactose, and other such "obecalp"s to repair the human body are well-documented!
-Dick

[Richard_smoker]

I was reading the massive collection of information I've recently acquired on Iboga and Ibogaine, and there is information within the Staten Island Project (which I have posted under Recovery and Addiction) that seems to back up the idea that ayahuasca has regenerative properties... regenerative in the sense that it seems to stun habitual circuits into a more normal state--i.e. neural circuits that are in a state of malfunction from chronic drug-induced damage.

Anyone interested, just let me know if this is enough information. I could be confusing sources--if so, I'll be happy to post references.

[Kemikaru_Tenshu]

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

About the drugs you listed:
piracetam - this is one that I think might have actually worked on me. it has been researched more than any other cognitive enhancer AFAIK, and I believe that it worked when I tried it while preparing for a standardized test (memorization of infinite facts, application of memorized materials, regurgitation of fact).

I would be inclined to agree. I have been taking piracetam for an extended period, and have experienced noticeable benefits from it. You are correct that piracetam is the most widely researched "nootropic". Research involving this substance has continued for decades.

Originally Posted by Richard_smoker

l-deprenyl (selegeline) aka "(-) propynylmethamphetamine" - THIS drug is very interesting indeed! You know that selegeline actually breaks down into methamphetamine in the body!??* I have always assumed that the methamphetamine is what causes increased cognition. Prior to this whole "nootropic" interest, there were some drug addicts who actively sought-out this drug because it's not controlled in the US.

Unfortunately for those drug addicts l-deprenyl is only partially metabolized to the "inactive" stereoisomer of methamphetamine in vivo, with an additional metabolic product of the even less potent l-amphetamine (the final main metabolite being l-nordeprenyl). The degree of metabolism to l-methamphetamine is also much too small to have any significant influence on deprenyl's perceived effects. In fact, it would require ~10mg/kg of l-deprenyl to produce enough l-methamphetamine to elicit a dopaminergic response. It is not advisable to administer such high doses of l-deprenyl as at high doses deprenyl can promote apoptosis.

L-Deprenyl's effects are a result of its selectivity versus MAO-B (as opposed to MAO-A in the "normal" dosage range). As a result of this selectivity, it raises phenylethylamine and dopamine levels in the central nervous system without directly affecting serotonin or norepinephrine (it can indirectly raise norepinephrine levels, however).

It is definitely an interesting chemical, and speaking from experience I can say that it does seem to have noticeably beneficial effects. I can ALSO say from experience that to any of you considering acquiring l-deprenyl as a recreational drug: you're wasting your time.




~KT

[Richard_smoker]

But Kemi--my teacher said it in class! that means it's TRUE!!

j/k. I knew it sounded fishy. He also said what you did about it being a MAOBI... seems like if he were right, then i would have heard all OVER this site (and others) to get DOWN with the selegeline!

Thanks for the update! This is another great thread.
-Dick