What drugs help with Lucid Dreaming?

[Richard_smoker]

Hi. This is the dream about dreaming that I promised I would post.

I will explain more about the dreamstate, REM sleep, sleep cycles, states of consciousness and dreaming, how to achieve lucidity through habits & devices, what books/audio are worth a damn and which ones are crap, techniques of the Tibetan Dream monks, etc.

But this is a trip-report of sorts... I hope to express to everyone the various drugs and drug combos which have proven most beneficial to me and various people I have known. My list is by no means comprehensive, but it should be extremely helpful, and a good starting ground, perhaps. However, no serious dream researcher should leave out the other non-pharmaceutical approaches, some reading about what to expect and how to do it, and if you've got some extra cash, you can buy yourself one of the REM sleep alerting devices that I have found useful, and use electronic devices during your waking life as well--to remind you to constantly question your reality--as this is the essential 'point' of lucid dream work and its underlying philosophy as well... to learn to know and understand the interwoven similarities between "real-life" and dreams--and how to use mind-control to master both realities--as if dreams were 'real' and real life were as flexible as a dream.

OK. Here are the drugs.

Calea zacatechichi--the dream herb. Increases frequency, duration, and memory of dreams. Legal status: LEGAL. I recommend smoking this in its concentrated form. The best deal I found on it was where it was sold as an oral encapsulated 10X extract. After taking almost the entire bottle before sleep, I suddenly got the bright idea of smoking the hash-like contents and discovered a profound effect on increasing the realism of dreams, the length of the dream cycle (without increasing REM sleep), and the level of subjective reality attained in dreams. The problem with this drug/herb is that you basically need an entire 4-6 hours of extra sleep time as it will cause many individuals to sleep well into the next day. Not sure why. In my experience, I want to keep sleeping because the dreams are so great that I don't like waking up and ruining them. The dreams are better after your full night of sleep is over--thus waking up to go to work is very difficult on Calea. Essentially, you are denying yourself the best part of the experience.

SPECIAL NOTE ABOUT VALIUM, XANAX, KLONAPIN:
Benzos and other benzo-like sleeping medications: i.e. ambien, sonata, lunesta. Do NOT take benzos if you want to dream! These drugs are actually USED by physicians to REMOVE the dreaming component of sleep in patients with night terrors!! Benzo's (valium, xanax, klonopin, etc.) destroy your ability to dream. I've read reports from others to the contrary, but this stands in opposition to known scientific/medical knowledge. Not to say someone was lying--just highly unique reaction to the drugs. 9 times out of 10, xanax will greatly decrease the amount of REM sleep that a person will experience. Alcohol does the same.

Benadryl (diphenhydramine). This drug is a great sleeping agent for many people. Most people take their dosage (25-75mg) up to 2 full hours before bedtime. This provides for a true 'knockout' at bedtime and much less chance of a 'hangover' in the morning. Here you get actual drowsy sleepiness in which your original REM sleep (hypnagogic hallucinations) will overpower you as soon as your head hits the pillow.

Melatonin. Many people swear by melatonin as a dream-enhancer. Not surprising given that it is a tryptamine that is naturally secreted by the pineal gland (right?) to initiate "night-time sequence" in the brain. Although I have never read this recommendation in a 'herbal' literature or even on a bottle of melatonin... the drug/hormone is taken 1.5 to 2 hours before sleep to initiate or re-establish a normal circadian rhythm.

5-OH-Tryptophan. 5OHT or tryptophan. Like the naps after thanksgiving turkey, this one will help induce dreams in many people. I forget the details off-hand, but it has been my personal experience that this one and melatonin are almost interchangeable... only this works much sooner to bedtime.

others...
Marijuana: the verdict is not completely out on this one. it is a complex beast. most agree that the best use of MJ is to take a SMALL hit upon waking in the morning... try and keep yourself awake for a full 30 minutes, before going back to bed for another 90 minutes, during which, you will experience a complete sleep-cycle who's end component will be mostly REM sleep.

Dream Herbal Smoke blends. These contain all kinds of nasty stuff like catnip and others. I didn't enjoy them one bit. Maybe they work for others...

LOW DOSE: LSD, Psilocybin, tryptamines--remember you still have to be able to FALL ASLEEP on the drug!



Another technique altogether is to deprive yourself of REM sleep--leading to something called REM-rebound. The idea is that when your body is starved of REM, it will click very quickly into REM sleep soon after you fall asleep. So, you can deprive yourself of REM sleep for a variable number of nights, and then on the NEXT night, you remove the REM inhibitor, and you should have a noticeable increase in REM.

Ways to Induce REM Rebound (how to inhibit REM):
Alcohol. just ask an alcoholic what happens when they fall asleep without drinking...! In your case, the experience should be regular dreams instead of nightmares. The nightmares reflect the body's state of dysequilibrium from withdrawal. So, don't do this if you're an alcoholic!
Benzodiazapenes same as alcohol. again, don't do this if you're addicted. Withdrawal from both alcohol and benzos can lead to seizures and death.
Sleep deprivation (stimulants, amphetamines, etc.) many of you tweakers know about this one... many believe this is what causes those OEVs after staying awake for days on end.


Please PM me with obvious mistakes and I will correct them. I do not intend to start a big argument over a misstatement. I can just edit.

Thanks guys, there's much more coming up... until then, it's ZZZzzzzzzz....

Reputation Comments on this post:

	very interesting post about sleep
	very helpful info, nice explanation of alternatives to the illegal use of drugs
	Great info, thanks.

[Alfa]

Also see this root: Entada rheedii
BTW merged threads about this topic.

[Beeker]

As someone who loves the Lucid dream state.

the ONLY compound I know of that causes real Lucid dreaming (waking up in a dream and saying to yourself, "WTF?!? I'm dreaming! Lets change this as I want! Fly out window, create new world, add interesting people, forget the people add sweet hot women. Run program, dream state fast car. etc."

30mg Mirtazapine for two nights no more then 2 weeks daily. Know that you will go from a 34 jeans to a 38 jeans on 7 grams of fat a day though.

SWIM submitted to Erowid sooo much but they are all about Euphoria or simple reports there.

[Forthesevenlakes]

SWIM had some incredibly vivid dreams with the sleep aid Rozerem. Rozerem binds the melatonin M1 and M2 receptors. this could be part of the reason it seemed to produce so much more vivid imagery than a standard sleeping pill. maybe with work it could produce lucid dreams? just an inquiry, not really a reccomendation.

[Pinkavvy]

Narcolepsy helps too

[DxCore]

Thats very interesting. Is there was to produce lucid dreaming with-out the use of pills? aka different foods as i saw someone saying cheese helps. I ask this because im trying to stop usuing most substances.

and for these sleep aids they are prescribed am i right?


Thanks
DxCore

[Richard_smoker]

Originally Posted by DxCore

Thats very interesting. Is there was to produce lucid dreaming with-out the use of pills? aka different foods as i saw someone saying cheese helps. I ask this because im trying to stop usuing most substances.

and for these sleep aids they are prescribed am i right?

Drug-free: FRESH turkey... that's right, if you're too cheap/inexperienced of a chef to do the fresh, you should call around to local grocery stores/deli's and see if there's some kind of rotiserie-type deal where they actually have turkey that was recently RAW.

OTC: all the sleep aids that I mentioned were OTC. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is found in tylenol PM, etc. But if you wanna get it cheap, just look for the generic allergy pills.

also, the herbs are legal (except weed--but this one is a shitty choice as it's often hit-or-miss)

[Alicia]

yep cheese can do it, does it for swim anyway, get some bread/ some cheese, place cheese slices in bread like a sandwhich put on plate but in microwave until cheese is all melted then wait ... and eat. If that does'nt work it still tastes nice anyway drink milk with it as well. then try going to sleep. try to have an empty stomach before hand.

[IHrtHalucingens]

SWIM has noticed that heavy amounts of marijuana before bed makes his dreams very vivid and quite lucid, as well as extremely imaginative.

[RealGanjaMan]

Originally Posted by IHrtHalucingens

SWIM has noticed that heavy amounts of marijuana before bed makes his dreams very vivid and quite lucid, as well as extremely imaginative.

SWIM agrees with SWIY. Marjiuana seems to be SWIM's number one sleep aid. Good 'Ole Mary Jane. She only puts SWIM to sleep if he's ready to go to sleep. When SWIM is ready to go to sleep she gently puts him to sleep and greatly effects and intensifies SWIM's dreams. Then he wakes up, feeling more refreshed than ever. And SWIM can repeat this as often as he wants, it never gets any worse. She really is a Wonder Drug.

-RGM

[Alicia]

odd swim can only ever dream when she has a brake from the weed for a couple of days.

[IHrtHalucingens]

Just goes to show how differently some substances effect different people. I find it very interesting.

[Alicia]

It is interesting, swim even finds that the dreams come back often very fast some quite disturbing, others weird , but hardly ever dream only in certain drug states and when the weed runs out, if swim were sober she'd probly be dreaming every-night.

[glitterfly]

WOW i really wish i could give out rep points b/c this is such a great post! especially for sleep disordered people like me. never knew that about the benzos. way to go richard!!!

Reputation Comments on this post:

i like it! you will be moving up soon enough, eh? ;)

[Richard_smoker]

One thing that is pretty common is a phenomenon known as REM Rebound.

When your brain is deprived of REM sleep, it has a tendency to react by experiencing a HUGE bump in REM cycles (length of each REM cycle, and quickness in falling into REM).

How can you produce this?

Well, for starters, you could try sleep-deprivation... not the brightest idea, but it will work. Some think this is why hallucinations occur after a long stimulant binge causing sleep deprivation.

also, you can just deprive yourself of REM itself! This is VERY easy--just take something to inhibit REM for a couple of nights... like benzos or alcohol to sleep, followed by a "cold-turkey" night where you suddenly release the REM-inhibition.*

If MJ causes you to NOT dream, then maybe try smoking the SHIT out of it for 2-3 nights before bed, followed by your 'lucid' night immediately following.

Other substances reported to increase REM duration and quality:
1. Vitamin E,
2. Caffeine (small doses of course--this seems to work well during daytime-naps), and
3. even though they are benzo-derivatives, many report great dreams on ambien, sonata, and ?possibly Lunesta?...

4. ?piracetam?--I propose an experiment amongst those who enjoy dreaming/lucidity to explore the potential of various cognitive enhancers... piractam and family, vinpocetine, huperzine, and any of the other acetylcholine-esterase inhibitors used in alzheimer's disease.

Somebody get back with me on the Lunesta... the only thing I know about this one is that it knocks me out like a LIGHT BULB! Good luck staying awake on this one!

-Dick

*be careful with this method of inducing REM rebound. Any alcoholic will tell you that if you drag out the inhibition period for TOO long, then your sleep will be filled with nightmares and sweat!

[Nagognog2]

Bongo has found that a small dose - 3mg - of melatonin once in a while will induce very powerful dreams. Whether these become lucid is, of course, up to the skill level of the dreamer to notice and thereby control.

Reputation Comments on this post:

GOOD! Thanks for mentioning melatonin! This is one i TRULY believe in for dream enhancement. thanks.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Bongo has found that a small dose - 3mg - of melatonin once in a while will induce very powerful dreams. Whether these become lucid is, of course, up to the skill level of the dreamer to notice and thereby control.

Swim has found this to be true as well. He has gotten quite noticeable effects from melatonin on his dreams, and these are pretty consistent effects too.


Swim has some Silene Capensis (African Dream Root) and is planning on trying it pretty soon. He may attempt to mix some with melatonin to see if there is any more pronounced dream effects than what he would get from the melatonin, i.e. more lucidity.

[The Dr]

others...
Marijuana: the verdict is not completely out on this one. it is a complex beast. most agree that the best use of MJ is to take a SMALL hit upon waking in the morning... try and keep yourself awake for a full 30 minutes, before going back to bed for another 90 minutes, during which, you will experience a complete sleep-cycle who's end component will be mostly REM sleep.

Thats crazy - swim sometimes has very vivid dreams when he has woken up then fallen asleep again, after originally going to sleep very stoned. However mostly its there is no recollection of any dreams at all

[Richard_smoker]

Here are some other possibilities for "dream herb." Alfa already mentioned the second one, but alas, no one has commented on its effects:

African Dream Root Powder, Silene capensis (Ubulawu)
Possibly more effective than the better know “Dream herb” Calea zacatechichi, this is the first time that this unique and rare ethnobotanical is offered for sale and made available outside of Africa. Normally only the seeds are available but we have finally managed to locate a supply of the actual root which is used by African shamans for accessing the dream state.
This sacred plant which shamans of the verdant river valleys of the eastern cape province of South Africa has the ability to induce remarkably vivid dreams. A web site describes this plant: "This obscure flowering species is regarded by shamans of the South African region as a type of "Ubulawu" or medicinal root that they call "Undela Ziimhlophe," which translates literally as "white paths" or white ways." It is suspected that this sacred plant's oneirongenic, or dream-inducing activity is likely due to triterpenoid saponins contained within its roots. Relatively small amounts of root (250 mg range) are reported to be active. The plant exerts only minimal alterations in waking consciousness, yet the effects upon the dream state can be profound.

Entada rheedii – “African Dream Herb”- Whole Seeds

The seeds of this large woody climber are frequently washed up on the beaches of the east coast of southern Africa which is why they are sometimes called Sea Beans. It is a large creeper growing in most forests in central Mozambique and naturally occurs from near Durban northwards throughout tropical Africa and into India, Asia and Australia.
The extraordinarily large seeds are carried or worn on necklaces and pendants as lucky charms, but tobacco made from this seed has been used for ages to help induce vivid dreaming.

The large bean like seeds are carried and worn on necklaces and pendants as lucky charms. Tobacco made from the seed has been reported to cause vivid dreaming. The seeds have various medicinal uses, including topical applications in an ointment for the treatment of jaundice.

Anyone with experience, please post results...

[adzket]

swim always has lucid dreams after a night on k. sometimes takes it for just this perpos.

[dip]

Originally Posted by adzket

swim always has lucid dreams after a night on k. sometimes takes it for just this perpos.

SWIM has also heard this to be true for K, and Salvia, and other dissociatives.
For SWIM, DXM got him interested in dreams. After first doing DXM, SWIM can identify and experience more easily the hypnagogia state. He has also recieved very vivid dreams during/after a robotrip. Not that he'd suggest doing dissociatives just to dream, but if your interested in dreams - you'd probably like DXM.

[D.U.M.B]

SWIM has gotten lucid dreams off cheese. SWIM knows it sounds silly and it was probably just pure luck but its happened to SWIM on two occasions. Where he's either eaten loads of cheese on crackers before bed or else cheese on toast before bed.

But don't expect to get lucid dreams from it but still strange expierence for SWIM none the less

[mbu37]

Hi,

Swim is sure many will take issue with the xanax shutting down REM sleep. Swim has many years of daily experience with xanax and continues to dream. Perhaps it's the dose.
The other problem this presents is that if one is not able to experience REM sleep it will eventually have negative consequences in his or her waking world.
Swim guesses there must be some duration that a person can safely go without REM.

It is still an interesting subject, swim will certainly look into it.

Enjoy your dreams, there's nothing like a lucid dream!