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Drug testing discussion What can you do against drug testing & more...

 
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  #1  
Old 12-05-2011, 19:29
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Last week, this write asked for advice for a neighbor's dear friend, whom writer has never met. It seems this person had taken some morphine cr that was not scripted for him/her. S/he also took prescription hydrocodone and was concerned about the results of a urine test taken five days after last morphine dose.
it was discovered today that AFOAF's prospective employer called and said the specimen given on last Monday was "negative-dilute". AFOAF was able to provide a possible medical explanation and a restest was offered. S/he went and got the slip immediately and went right to lab.
The website of the LABoratory CORPoration offering the test states explicitly that the opiate panels the employer requested test for codeine and morphine only.
My friend's neighbor is aware that hydrocodone can trigger a positive as part of a cross assay. S/he indeed has the script and assumes they can't deny employment based on a medical condition that does not interfere with the job. After sound advice from a poster here, s/he is also pretty sure there remained no morphine in his/her system after eight days.

Here's the new question (at last!)

If the lab test for opiates shows initially positive for opiates, based on use of hydrocodone, then they do a GS/MS follow-up. (so much has been learned here), and the results are negative for morphine and codeine, isn't the result reported as negative, since the two target substances were not found? Would they report a positive for a substance not requested in the test?
In other words, if the substance hydrocodone was not requested as part of the screen, nor offered as part of the screen, does the lab report it anyway?

Again, the script supports it. It's just after a negative dilute initial test, AFOAF would much rather a negative and not have to deal with an MRO.

Mr, Jiki, you have been great and i fully understand if you choose not to answer, but your counsel has been so valuable thus far.
Many thanks, all!
Chowsie

Chowsie added 21 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

Hopefully this will auto merge:
From the lab's website, the specific drugs tested for in their nine panel test:
"Test Includes: Amphetamines; barbiturates; benzodiazepines; cannabinoids (marijuana); cocaine; methadone (DolophineŽ); opiates (codeine, morphine only); phencyclidine (PCP); propoxyphene"

Last edited by Chowsie; 12-05-2011 at 19:29. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #2  
Old 12-05-2011, 19:45
Mr. Jiki Mr. Jiki is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowsie View Post
If the lab test for opiates shows initially positive for opiates, based on use of hydrocodone, then they do a GS/MS follow-up. (so much has been learned here), and the results are negative for morphine and codeine, isn't the result reported as negative, since the two target substances were not found? Would they report a positive for a substance not requested in the test?
In other words, if the substance hydrocodone was not requested as part of the screen, nor offered as part of the screen, does the lab report it anyway?
This is a possibility. Not all labs screen for all drugs. Perhaps the Morphine/Codeine only test is cheaper for the company to buy and they might be trying to screen for heroin addicts as opposed to someone in a pain management program that is on hydrocodone or oxycodone. If the confirmation test only tests morphine, codeine and 6-AM, then the urine will confirm as negative.

The other thing that SWIY's neighbor might want to look at is, if they drank a lot of water/coffee/soda/etc. to be able to give a sample for the urine test, that would be a reason for the dilute sample (or low creatinine). However, there is a small segment of the population that will have chronically low creatinine levels, without drinking lots of fluids.

Glad to find out the morphine did not show up. Tell SWIY's neighbor good luck on the retest.

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Good, supportive answer for the OP
  #3  
Old 13-05-2011, 01:39
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Additional question (big surprise, right?)
Does "negative dilute" automatically mean the test was negative *because* it was dilute or could it have been genuinely negative as well as dilute due to AFOAF's medical condition?
I was surprised when s/he informed my friend that s/he was offered a retest. I ass-u-med dilute urines presupposed sabotage.
Many thanks for the assistance.
  #4  
Old 15-05-2011, 18:45
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

I think I get this now. I initially thought a gc/ms was a single test, administered to a urine sample, that showed everything in the sample.
What I think I now understand is this:
IF an initial panel test for morphine/codeine happens to trigger as positive due to another substance, the gc/ms is done to see IF it was either codeine or morphine rather than a huge shot in the dark test to see whatever it was. They are, essentially, ruling something out since the employer only requested to know if specific drugs are being used.
Am I just mentally masturbating or is this likely? I don't have a clue whether a lab would go to the expense of finding out what the drug *was* if the employer wants only to be sure of what it *wasn't*, in this case codeine/morphine.
In any case, AFOAF should know tomorrow. If she/he lets I/me know the result, we/us will pass it on to you/them.
  #5  
Old 16-05-2011, 03:32
GForce Gold member GForce is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

I believe GC/MS tests are only done to confirm positive results. Given that the more complex and comprehensive the test is the more expensive it is it would seem logical that they lab would only test for what was ordered. If opiates tested positive due to a false positive from an opioid (I believe that's what you're saying), if that's possible, then they would run the GC/MS test for the individual substance. On the website does it say that they really only test for those specific opiates or are they given as an example? I ask only because I've seen statements on what is tested for simplified to the most common drugs they test for in a class as diverse as opiates or opioids. Is it explicitly clear in that sense? I also just wanted to add that my friend has been in pain management since December after a very bad car accident and he gets drug tested regularly. Every time he gets drug tested he signs a form that lists all the drugs they test for (and the list is quite long with several columns of substances). In that kind of situation they test for everything, and they place an order with the lab so that the lab knows to test for everything, because they want to know if you're taking any possible substance that you're not supposed to be taking. If they didn't want a particular substance to be tested for they can mark it off on the form they submit, or they can mark the individual substances they do want tested. I'm not sure if this offers you anymore insight but it seems to me that provided SWIY's friend doesn't test positive for the substance then they don't have to worry about the GC/MS test since I doubt they're going to run it for every known substance.
  #6  
Old 16-05-2011, 03:37
Phenoxide Phenoxide is nu online
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

It'll depend a lot of the testing lab. Some labs will try and go that extra mile to identify anything and everything in their MS testing, others will only test for the minimum number of very specific compounds to confirm or overrule a positive dipstick test.

Doing things the first way is more expensive, more time consuming and less sensitive, whereas the second way is much faster and also typically more sensitive. Just depends on what that particular lab does. As GForce says if they want to go in and check for pretty much anything in the confirmatory tests then they could do.
  #7  
Old 16-05-2011, 13:09
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by GForce View Post
On the website does it say that they really only test for those specific opiates or are they given as an example?
The website, among eight other classes, reads: opiates (codeine, morphine only) (wording theirs, bold mine).
Another poster noted, probably correctly, that some employers are only looking to screen out heroin users and not everyone who uses an opioid.
A great deal has been learned about this process. For instance, medical review officers (MRO) are not able to report opiates as positive unless morphine concentration is >15,000 or the heroin specific metabolite 6am is present. They need to have clinical evidence of abuse in the absence of the two above circumstances. For that reason among others, most opiate-positive urine tests are reported as negative by the MRO in employment situations.
I am not posting that to convince myself that AFOAF will be okay nor to give false hope to others. It's directly from the MRO manual.
Also, it's pretty clear to this writer that, if the hydro does cause a positive, the lab will then do a gc/ms for the target substance only (codeine, morphine), since the test does not require a positive for any other opiate/opioid.

Chowsie added 20 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

Additionally, I failed to thank the three posters who responded. The Internet is rife with misinformation and "Well, my sister's husband's best friend is a doctor and he thinks..."
So the info here, which seems pretty sound, is among the best out there.
Again, thanks!

Last edited by Chowsie; 16-05-2011 at 13:09. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 17-05-2011, 23:02
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Been four work days since the FOAF whipped out his wiener and whizzed. Last time, when the negative dilute was reported, it took 72 hours. So it's either negative or sitting on the desk of an MRO somewhere.
I have made sure the FOAF has heard all of your feedback and he is encouraged.
  #9  
Old 20-05-2011, 22:58
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Well, eight calendar days, (6-7 work days) have passed with no call from anyone. It took the lab/MRO/HR 72 hours to inform the FOAF when he pissed dilute so he's guessing that he's clear after 7 days and no call.
If he was to hazard a guess, he believes that the initial EMIT screen did not pick up Vicodin as an opiate, and therefore the negative dilute was an actual negative, as was the second test. The other possibility is that the Vicodin did trigger the EMIT but the GC/MS only showed the absence of the target opiates, morphine, codeine and 6-am, which would then be reported as a negative by the lab.
In any event, unless FOAF receives some unhappy news, we can ass-u-me it was negative and he'll have his negative ass in an orientation seat as planned.
Thanks to all who offered opinions and assistance.
  #10  
Old 21-05-2011, 22:01
Canmedaa Canmedaa is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Urine tests are only so reliable, thus why we use blood screens in the ER. Whether or not a private lab reports a positive hit on a substance not requested is likely at the discretion of the lab and how they deliver their results. If they merely pass on the tox screen, then the requester will see any positive hits, if they merely provide a summary they may not mention it.

Patients in the ER test positive all the time for various crap and we only ever bring it up when we think its directly related to what we're treating, otherwise we just shove it in the file without mention.

Cheers,
-CAN
  #11  
Old 23-05-2011, 16:20
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canmedaa View Post
if they merely provide a summary they may not mention it.
Thanks. This was a pre-employment screen at a lab. The lab screens specifically for opiates, and charges a separate fee for opioids. This led FOAF to believe that they wouldn't report the hydrocodone, since the employer did not pay for that as part of the screen.
At this point, I have advised my friend's friend to lighten up. Even if the hydro is reported, he has a script.
Additionally, there has been no call in seven working days. Since the neg/dilute was reported in 72 hours, he is fairly sure the follow-up result was negative. Otherwise he should have received a call by now.
  #12  
Old 27-05-2011, 19:18
Chowsie Chowsie is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

FOAF phoned today to let me know he starts the new job on Tuesday. The test was negative, as he received no call from an MRO. So it appears Vicoprofen did not trip this particular Laboratory corporation 9 panel urine test, which, under opiates, specified morphine and codeine only.
He sends along his thanks for the helpful advice he received here, through me.
  #13  
Old 27-05-2011, 19:35
Mr. Jiki Mr. Jiki is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Good to hear. Hope SWIY's FOAF does well in their new job.
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Old 31-05-2011, 22:52
RaoulDukeX RaoulDukeX is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

ok well let me start by saying; if this post does not conform to the strict rues of the site, please delete it, and send me a message telling me what i did wrong, maybe a nudge in the right direction . also im not sure if it is better to jack someone elses thread or start my own, but regardless, cograts to your neighbor on getting the job, and here i go

AFOAF of SWIMs is on probation for the dumbest thing ever; he has to chance his lifestyle because one of his stupid friends was caught with a single beer, and now he has 6mo of drgtests, biweekly.

so on to the question; the FOAF recently found some hydrocodone he had forgotten about, and he would like to partake, but he is not sure because he has read some conflicting things on the internet. he knows he is tesed for THC, morphine, benzos, meth and PCP, but he thinks there were more, theyve just slipped his mind. now he has heard that the 5 panel screens test only for morphine; so heroin, percocet and well morphine, but do not test for OPIDS. however hes not certainif its 5 panel or more if anyone cares to ask he could try to discibe the test in as much detail as he can muster

*sigh* suppose a question still has not been formed, but, can someone please help, maybe share some info or personal experience?
  #15  
Old 04-06-2011, 15:19
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

I wouldn't risk my freedom over a couple Vicodin.

The "OPI" (opiates) panel on the drug screens traditionally only looked for morphine (which includes codeine & Heroin, since they metabolise into morphine). However, over the years what they look for under the "OPI" header has changed & expanded; oxycodone doesn't metabolise into morphine, but it comes up (sometimes it's too low or something, so many tests have a separate panel for just oxycodone which looks for lower levels to "trip" the test), and hydrocodone can also be looked for under the generic "OPI" panel Methadone still requires a separate panel, but it's often included. It used to be fairly safe to use Suboxone/Subutex (buprenorphine) to get a buzz if one was being screened via Drug Court/Probation, but it became such a big problem that I know in my area they now include the separate buprenorphine panel as well.

It sounds like forever, but it's really only 6 months...if I were in that position, I just wouldn't risk it; save it for a celebratory high when he's finally free of those constraints.

All the best,

~Kailey

ETA: maybe Kratom??

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Good info/good advice
  #16  
Old 07-06-2011, 14:45
moke64916 moke64916 is offline
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Re: Hydrocodone and an opiates only screen

Yes with a gc/ms test. It will show all chemicals. Whether on not the are looking for a specific drug. It will also show all other substances she is taking.

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