Shulgin and doses

[raven3davis]

As many of you know it seems that Shulgin and his "crew" were normally very careful with their doses and never really ventured into the heavy doses of most tryptamines and phenethylamines. Has Shulgin really seen the beauty of all his chemicals? Shulgin created all the chemicals and what an amazing thing that was to do, but do you al believe he should have taken higher doses of some substances? SWIM knows that not all the reports in his books are his but for instance the highest dose of DOC in PIHKAL is 2.4mg. Shulgin was definitely safe with some drugs, but not others.

Check out this exerpt from TIHKAL. The drug involved was 5-meo-dmt and one can only guess the dose.

(with an unknown but large amount, smoked) I observed the subject pass very quickly into an almost coma-like state. Within seconds his face became purple and his breathing stopped. I pounded his chest, and breathed for him, and he seemed to emerge in consciousness, with the comment, "This is absolute ecstasy." He stopped breathing a second time, and both heart massage and mouth-to-mouth resuscitation was provided. Again, he recovered and managed to maintain a continuing consciousness and achieve a partial recovery. In the awake condition he was increasingly lucid, but on closing his eyes he became possessed with, what he called, "The energy of terror." He could not sleep, as upon closing his eyes he felt threatened in a way he could not tolerate. Three days later, medical intervention with antipsychotic medication was provided, which allowed the recovery of an acceptable behavior pattern in a few more days.

Now what SWIM wants to know is why would Shulgin be so conservative with some doses and completely irrational with others? It seems like who ever smoked that 5-meo-dmt was pretty close to death. Although 5-meo-dmt hasnt caused any deaths in swims knowledge, it is completely possible. Why would he pack a bowl of a unknown but large amount? He never even took 4mg of DOC. Someone in the book also took a large amount of DPT freebase which was unmeasured. It seems safer to do with DPT than with 5-meo-dmt but still seems a bit irresponsible.

WHY? Maybe this was just an isolated case but for the life of SWIM, SWIM cannot figure out why Shulgin would have done something that irresponsible. It seems like 30mg would have been quite enough to employ the full effects. Who even knows how much a large but unmeasured dose it?

[radiometer]

The reports in Shulgin's books are by no means all his or Anne's experiences. Many of them were taken from research journals and private correspondence with others.

[raven3davis]

yea true SWIM knew this he just assumed that this 5-meo-dmt report was shulgins. SWIM was also reading the DON exerpts and in the conclusion Shulgin "SWIM belives" said he had not even tried DON. Maybe SWIM misread or maybe those were not the words of shulgin.

Maybe Shulgin can take SWIM under his wing and let him have a few words in his new book

[prospero]

I've always felt that Shulgin was more interested in the chemistry of these drugs rather than the potential for spiritual and personal growth. Or maybe he just felt enough people were already writing about that and he had nothing much else to add. Or maybe it was all too personal for him to make public. Whatever the answer I'm not complaining!

[Alfa]

There is another thread simular to this one. Shulgin is conservative with naming dosages for his compounds. Writing books like he did carries a large responsibility. Many will dose according to his writings. He cannot afford to be on the liberal side of the dose. That could have become disasterous.

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by Alfa

There is another thread simular to this one. Shulgin is conservative with naming dosages for his compounds. Writing books like he did carries a large responsibility. Many will dose according to his writings. He cannot afford to be on the liberal side of the dose. That could have become disasterous.

Especially when taken in context with his little problem with DOM (STP) back in 1967. I'd say he's pretty brave to have dared publish at all.

[Alfa]

Please explain that problem.

[daeron]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

Especially when taken in context with his little problem with DOM (STP) back in 1967. I'd say he's pretty brave to have dared publish at all.

i completely disagree; why should a scientist be afraid to publish his work?
nobel felt bad cos of his baby? well he was wrong too.

drugs dont kill people
guns dont kill people
people kill people
or more often-stupid people kill themselves, in one way or the other

of course everything is not all black and white, but one thing should be underlined:
one should not feel neither held responcible for the stupidity of others

[enquirewithin]

Originally Posted by raven3davis

Shulgin was definitely safe with some drugs, but not others....Check out this exerpt from TIHKAL. The drug involved was 5-meo-dmt and one can only guess the dose....Now what SWIM wants to know is why would Shulgin be so conservative with some doses and completely irrational with others?
WHY?

If you read the books a bit more carefully (perhaps you have not read the first parts of his books?), you would know that that particular 5-MEO-DMT case was NOT Shulgin. It's quoted as a warning. He would never just take an unknown large amount of anything. His reports are garnered from a variety of sources. He then summarises them for brevity. Many are reports from his research group, some are sent to him, some are taken from published sources like journals.

Some comments you can tell are his (he sometimes says so), some are obvoulsly Anne's). Many are someone else's.

He WAS interetsed in psychedelics as tools for self growth and for exploring the mind. He makes this quite clear. he was not interested in consuming huge anmounts of potentially dangerous drugs so he could boast about it. No-one in his research groups suffered damage- their were no Jake Duroys. No-one would have died taking 2-C-T-7 if they had followed his guidelines.

[raven3davis]

Yes this is true and SWIM has read a bit of the books and knew that all the reports were not his own, but SWIM was unsure weather this report was his own. SWIM knows he has a responsibility but it just seems like he went pretty light one some doses DOC is one that comes to mind here. 2.4mg is a good dose, dont get SWIM wrong, but SWIM believes the true magic doesnt come until about 4mg. This is just what SWIM believes though maybe he was sensitive to these compounds and maybe he has taken more and just not included the reports. Surely he trips hard just knowing that he is tripping off of one of his own creations!

yes can you explain this DOM problem? did it have anything to do with the overdoses? Do you all think that research chemicals would be as abundant today without the work of Shulgin? Not the actual work, but the publishing of his books. Obviously if he didnt do some of his research some of these chemicals might not even be around but do you think if he wouldnt have published PIHKAL and TIHKAL then RCs would be generally unknown?

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by Alfa

Please explain that problem.

Okay. In 1967, some un-named underground chemist and company released what was to be called STP onto the market in California. This came in the form of a white tablet with blue dots inscribed STP. Supposedly STP standing for Serenity, Tranquility, and Peace. STP was also an automotive product - Scientifically Treated Petroleum. There was a large problem with these pills however - they contained 20mg of DOM.

DOM is quite active at 3-5mg. 20mg if overkill plus. Also people were used to LSD25 at the time. LSD taking a notable effect in 15 - 30 minutes, while DOM can take 2 - 3 hours to really make it's presence known. So the unwitting masses, thinking they had some weak acid, took another pill. Or more. Oops! The results were predictable. Emergency rooms filled up with psychedelic casualties, the press had a field day, and off in the distance sat the good Sasha Shulgin - probably biting his nails.

Shulgin had first synthesized DOM some years prior to this mess. He was left to ponder who, if anyone, had swiped his synthesis. Or did someone else invent his DOM on their own? He never would find out for certain. His patented DOM had only been released in trials to psychiatrists to evaluate. He had spoken about it to groups of students. Could that have been the leak? Who knows. In any event, Shulgin had some bad days as a result of some dingbat chemist pumping the stuff out in 4X overdose form.

The initial 20mg pills disappeared from the market, and were replaced with orange, scored, triangular tablets inscribed STP. These had 10mg in each. They were around for a few years.

STP - DOM - has all but disappeared from the underground market as of this writing.

[nanobrain]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

He was left to ponder who, if anyone, had swiped his synthesis.

^that would have been Owsley and Scully.

in the neighborhood lab, there was never felt a need to question the Shulgin range, as even mid-level doses always tended to produce extraordinary results.

[enquirewithin]

Peter Stafford (Psychedelics Encyclopedia) thinks that an underground chemist synthesised STP/ DOM independently of Shulgin, as it was some later and the producers seemed to be badly informed aboutb it. I think the case of STP/ DOM may have made Shulgin even more keen to publish TIHKAL-- had his research been more available people may have got the doses right!

I remember that Shulgin had a friend help him with experimenting with DOM as he said he nervous about taking much of it! He never did go very high with DOC doses. Maybe he didn't have time?

As for 5-MEO-DMT, I don't think that Shulgin was the first to isolate it, as it is naturally occuring. he probably had access to numerous reports.

[Nagognog2]

Originally Posted by nanobrain

^that would have been Owsley and Scully.

in the neighborhood lab, there was never felt a need to question the Shulgin range, as even mid-level doses always tended to produce extraordinary results.

The Owsley theory has made it's rounds. But was never proven either way. On the likely side is the fact that Owsley did supply Leary and company with LSD25, and Richard Alpert was known to have STP. Maybe that's what turned him into Ram Dass!

[slickstick]

If anyone were to read one of Shulgin's books, what would be the best to start with, assuming they might only read one or two. I find especially interesting how he/she got into the whole subject, and the procedures of their research/invention/experimentation.

[Nagognog2]

I would suggest reading Pihkal. It is available on-line and can easily be ordered.

[slickstick]

Originally Posted by Nagognog2

I would suggest reading Pihkal. It is available on-line and can easily be ordered.

I wonder if my school library carries it, lol.

[nanobrain]

and are you over 18, young schoolie?

[Toltec]

Hey guys:
This tread sparked allot of memories in me; it all started when I took a little pill WAY back when. The infamous "Orange Sunshine Barrow". Well in my search of what exactly was in this most wonderful pill I took, LSD or STP etc...

I meet Bear aka Owsley in my long search for theses answers, I needed answered which Bear did for me. So I decided to get in touch with him once again concerning this tread. For years I have been reading the same kind of is this REALLY True or not discussions on the internet.

So from the horses, I mean Bears mouth to the drugs-forum, this is what he has to say about STP>>


> I have another question for you; it's about STP aka DOM?
In this forum I visit, there is this discussion about who made the STP in the 60's. And was it invented by someone else also and possibly at the same time, as "Sasha" Alexander Shulgin? Or was it stolen from Alexander Shulgin?

>Here are the post saying this' and the link to the forum>
<http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15870>http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15870

Bear~>
If you want to post my reply, please DO NOT include my address. I have had a lot of trouble with spam and do not want more in this new address. The post you quote is from someone with a very creative mind, who has not a clue about the true events of 1968- not surprising, since it was 38 years ago. The writer was likely either a small child, or not even born at the time.

This is a load of rubbish:

>Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa
Please explain that problem.

>Okay. In 1967, some un-named underground chemist and company released
>what was to be called STP onto the market in California.
>This came in the form of a white tablet with blue dots inscribed STP.
>Supposedly STP standing for Serenity, Tranquility, and Peace.
>STP was also an automotive product - Scientifically Treated Petroleum.
>There was a large problem with these pills however - they contained
>20mg of DOM.

Bear~>
We did that. Sasha privately gave me the synthesis.

They contained 10 mg. They were 1/4" plain white scored tabs. Very few were made. The dosage was then dropped to 5 mg, but even that was not good. Eventually it was put up as 1mg peach coloured tabs, about 1000 made- then some with 100 mcg of LSD- the whole thing was soon dropped.


>DOM is quite active at 3-5mg. 20mg if overkill plus. Also people were
>used to LSD25 at the time. LSD taking a notable effect in 15 - 30
>minutes, while DOM can take 2 - 3 hours to really make it's presence
>known.

Bear~>
Both statements are false. STP is noticeable around 250 mcg, (acid is at 25 mcg) and is quite strong at 1 mg. It takes effect in about the same time as mescaline or acid, ~45 min. It is not hallucinatory at any dosage. As a psychedelic it was an abject failure. It is like a weird form of MDMA, only not so 'enjoyable' if that is the word.

>So the unwitting masses, thinking they had some weak acid, took another
>pill. Or more. Oops! The results were predictable. Emergency rooms
>filled up with psychedelic casualties, the press had a field day, and
>off in the distance sat the good Sasha Shulgin - probably biting his
>nails.


Nonsense.

>Shulgin had first synthesized DOM some years prior to this mess. He was
>left to ponder who, if anyone, had swiped his synthesis. Or did someone
>else invent his DOM on their own? He never would find out for certain.
>His patented DOM had only been released in trials to psychiatrists to
>evaluate. He had spoken about it to groups of students. Could that have
>been the leak? Who knows. In any event, Shulgin had some bad days as a
>result of some dingbat chemist pumping the stuff out in 4X overdose
>form.


Bear~>
Nonsense again. See my statement above. Sasha was completely helpful in our attempt to produce a legal psychedelic to replace acid. Unfortunately it failed as have all other attempts to do so.
LSD is unique.

The initial 20mg pills disappeared from the market, and were replaced with orange, scored, triangular tablets inscribed STP. These had 10mg in each. They were around for a few years.

Where does this stupid bullshit come from? The 10 mg tabs, about 100 were identical to the 20's. Neither were never given out to more than a few 'testers'. No triangular tabs of any kind were ever made. The peach-coloured 1 mg tabs were 1/8" in dia., thick and unscored. Only a few thousand of all formulations were made and these were gone from the scene in a few months in 1968, replaced by pure acid in our 'standard' dosage of 250-300 mcg, in orange coloured tabs of the same size and shape as the peach STP and STP/LSD combos. These became known as Orange Sunshine. I had no part of anything that was done after Dec 1967, it was all the work of Tim Scully and Nick Sand.


STP - DOM - has all but disappeared from the underground market as of this writing.

This is at least partially true, it totally disappeared before the end of 1968.

__________________




POST 2>
QUOTE
nanobrain




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagognog2
He was left to ponder who, if anyone, had swiped his synthesis.

^that would have been Owsley and Scully.

in the neighborhood lab, there was never felt a need to question the Shulgin range, as even mid-level doses always tended to produce extraordinary results.

POST 3>
Peter Stafford (Psychedelics Encyclopedia) thinks that an underground chemist synthesized STP/ DOM independently of Shulgin, as it was some later and the producers seemed to be badly informed about it. I think the case of STP/ DOM may have made Shulgin even more keen to publish
TIHKAL-- had his research been more available people may have got the doses right!

I remember that Shulgin had a friend help him with experimenting with DOM as he said he nervous about taking much of it! He never did go very high with DOC doses. Maybe he didn't have time?

As for 5-MEO-DMT, I don't think that Shulgin was the first to isolate it, as it is naturally occurring. he probably had access to numerous reports.

POST 4>
QUOTE
enquirewithin


Quote:
Originally Posted by nanobrain
^that would have been Owsley and Scully.

in the neighborhood lab, there was never felt a need to question the Shulgin range, as even mid-level doses always tended to produce extraordinary results.

The Owsley theory has made it's rounds. But was never proven either way. On the likely side is the fact that Owsley did supply Leary and company with LSD25, and Richard Alpert was known to have STP. Maybe that's what turned him into Ram Dass!



I hope its ok with you that I ask these questions. I find the history of psychedelics interesting as I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area at that time.



I really appreciate all your help with my questions, and the time you spend going through your emails, you must get a lot of them. It's good to hear your health is better now. I bet you never though you would have been part of this type of psychedelic history.

To be honest; and with your permission, is it ok, that I post your answers to clear up some of this confusion, on who did what questions?

Thanks you very much for your time'
xxxx



(Below is a snip from the last email I sent you.)


-----Original Message-----
From: Bear [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:20 PM
To: xxxx
Subject: Re: Hello sir

I once emailed you before and asked you about the Orange Sunshine back in the San Francisco Bay Area. I took some of it then. I have had quite a bit of lsd in my time and it was so different feeling and so much more visual then say windowpane back then.

Windowpane and blotter begin to go bad as soon as made up, the materials used (gelatin and paper) are destructive to the acid.

Was there two batches made?

I haven't a clue- ask Tim or Nick. Most likely there were many batches made during their five year long enterprise.

g




--

Cheers,


Bear

Reputation Comments on this post:

WOW. I've never felt quite so enlightened/informed by 1 post! Wonderfully complex!

[Nagognog2]

Interesting. But that calls Shulgin a liar. So I will take Mr.
aka Bear with a grain - or more - of salt. Seems that this issue will not easily be solved to EVERYONE'S satisfaction.

I also have a question to the author: If 250mcg was active and 1mg was potent, why for heck's sake was this released at 5mg as claimed? Would that not constitute a 5X overdose? Is that not tantamount to putting out 1mg tabs of LSD25?

This gets more curious all the time...

[Toltec]

Yeah it's confusing! I thought I'd give it a try by asking Owsley.
It has been 30+ years, who knows how there meories are now, there was allot of tripping going on then.
Cheers

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good research.

[raven3davis]

Does Shulgin still dose his chemicals? Maybe he has tried higher doses of some chemicals after he wrote the book. SWIM has not read the book so maybe these questions are answered. It would just seem unlikely that Shulgin invented so many wonderful compounds and that he wouldnt taste a few of them out every once in a while? It would also be interesting to know if Shulgin ever smoked weed while he was tripping. SWIM has seen one report in a book of his that mentioned smoking dope to calm the nausea, but SWIM was unsure if this was Shulgin himself.

[enquirewithin]

Whose word would you rather trust? Owsley or Sahsa Shulgin?

I have read an interview with Owlsey (by Bruce Eisner, himself a dodgy character) which is very interesting, but....I would take what he says with a pinch of salt,

DOB/ STP surfaced in the UK (as did DOB later) in the early 80's. I know that the DOB, at least, was the real thing because people were prosecuted for it. Many people enjoyed it. It IS psychedelic in the sense that it gives very strong patterned visuals rather like LSD and it does last a long time, like other DOx compounds.

What I know about the original STP fiasco comes form PIHKAL and Peter Stafford's Psychedelics Encyclopedia. Any one else got any other sources?

raven3davis-- oddly enough Sahsa dosen't like weed. He and Anne had some negative experiences with it, as you can read in both PIHKAL and TIHKAL

[Nagognog2]

Oh be sure to believe Owsley Augustus Stanley III. After all, when he was arrested he had his friends arrested too. So be sure to ask them about his tenacity for telling the truth.

Refute, Mr Bear?

[enquirewithin]

I wish I had the book to hand, but there is a hilararious part in the The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test where Owsley is supposed to have taken a massive overdose of his own acid! Don't know how true that is either! According to Tom Wolfe he hadn't taken much of his own acid.