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  #1  
Old 22-02-2011, 21:48
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

We keep getting different answers. Pl.....

Please help. I apologize if posted incorrectly. Need answer, ASAP, PLEASE.

Every doctor is advising different things. So confused.

Chronic pain patient on oxycodone by RX for years. Now taking 90 mg of oxycodone daily. Tomorrow begin suboxone or subutex. This doctor says his purpose is to get patient off of suboxone or subutex as soon as possible and it varies from person to person.

How long in reality does one really have to wait to take first dose of suboxone or subutex? This doctor does not care which one, however, is saying she needs to wait minimum 24, preferably 36 hours before first dose. We have been doing research and are crazy from it. Everywhere and every doctor seems to have their own requirement. This is very important and something that must be done.

Please someone with personal or professional knowledge answer me please.

How long must one wait before first dose of suboxone? This is most important. Most articles say at first signs of withdrawal. Well, that is different from person to person. What is the correct answer? If sound desperate, we are. And are afraid because of everything that is written about sending one into bad withdrawals.

Apologies to people for sending personal messages. Am at wit's end and afraid.

Also, does it make a difference suboxone or subutex and how long does it take to become addicted to the suboxone?

I have created a pay pal account and am awaiting approval ...? in order to make donation. Not familiar with all of this.

From what have seen in this forum am very impressed at the knowledge and care. Still cannot afford to arrive and be told come back tomorrow. Please someone --what to do and what to expect and if this is not posted correctly, please tell advise and after tomorrow things will not be so crazy.

Last dose of opiate 12 noon today. Doctor is allowing us to stay in his waiting room all day if necessary. Need guidance. Was here when tried regular detox and could not do it due to allergies and other problems. Weaning did not work. Psychiatrist does not know. Three doctors, three different answers.

Not rich but will make donation monthly. Learning about pay pal and am very sorry to sound freaky but this has to be right or what is the use? Thank you in advance for any help or guidance.

Again thank you.
  #2  
Old 22-02-2011, 21:59
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Swims friend remembers that he would wait until the signs of withdrawal were just starting to get strong to take his suboxone. He was addicted to oxycontin and eventually heroin, he would dose H at night and by morning he would wake up in full withdrawals and would take the suboxone then. Pretty sure that it doesnt matter with subutex as there is no naloxone to force a precipitated withdrawal.

Swims friend has seen another post of swiys and was going to say something but got tied up. His suggestion is to use suboxone (not subutex) to do a QUICK taper. He used to use this method back when he had no intention of cleaning up and would be feeling completely fine by day 4, like baseline normal.

Take the suboxone for 3 days using less each day. The buprenorphine helps a million with the withdrawal while the naloxone seems to work its magic on detoxing the system. There is a pure naloxone treatment which is used to force addicts into a precipated withdrawal to clean them up faster than normal.

Thats his two cents, hope it all goes well. Suboxone can become the new oxy for ya if tried to use it in a more maintenance plan type way.

Peace
  #3  
Old 22-02-2011, 22:49
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghetto_Chem View Post
Swims friend remembers that he would wait until the signs of withdrawal were just starting to get strong to take his suboxone. He was addicted to oxycontin and eventually heroin, he would dose H at night and by morning he would wake up in full withdrawals and would take the suboxone then. Pretty sure that it doesnt matter with subutex as there is no naloxone to force a precipitated withdrawal.

Swims friend has seen another post of swiys and was going to say something but got tied up. His suggestion is to use suboxone (not subutex) to do a QUICK taper. He used to use this method back when he had no intention of cleaning up and would be feeling completely fine by day 4, like baseline normal.

Take the suboxone for 3 days using less each day. The buprenorphine helps a million with the withdrawal while the naloxone seems to work its magic on detoxing the system. There is a pure naloxone treatment which is used to force addicts into a precipated withdrawal to clean them up faster than normal.

Thats his two cents, hope it all goes well. Suboxone can become the new oxy for ya if tried to use it in a more maintenance plan type way.

Peace

Thank you. Aware of the Narcane or naloxone but wonder why suboxone instead of subutex? I also gather from this the quicker the better even though it means a lot of driving.... and not having a script, only the amount of medication they deem necessary. Don't quite understand why suboxone better choice than subutex, would seem opposite. Then again, I dn't know. I don't want the precipated wds... in case haven't waited long enough or am I misunderstanding. What I get from this is to use the quicker method even though it is not the easiest. Don't want maintenance.... want OFF..... too expensive and not an abuser. Have just had enough. No option to do three days. It is three days then taper, three days then taper, three days then taper then OFF.

The other is at least a month and says the quick will only lead to relapse. OK thank you..... do have script but really don't want to do without doctor.

So, getting the quick one is better. Don't understand why doc would want any other way. Except that he would make more money. Thank you so much. Just a bit wary not to have anything extra and be over 100 mi from the doctor. OK... will process all of this, go for walk and if need be, will be back to ask more. Thank you so much.
  #4  
Old 23-02-2011, 01:05
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

The reason swims friend suggests suboxone is that although naloxone (narcon) can cause precipitated withdrawal when taken in isolation. Swiy wont feel it cuz of the buprenorphine, but yet it still seems to help clean the body out of the other "classic" opiod swiy was on. This is just swims friends theory as to why people can use suboxone for a few days and then be feeling fine by day 3 or 4. Whereas normally the withdrawal of the persons opiate of choice, would last much longer.

Didnt know that swiy had to drive so far to the doctor. Swims friend has only had experience with doctors that give prescriptions in which case he would just have what he needed.

Take the 9 day tapering program. Is 100mi really the only way to get treatment? Sorry if swims misunderstanding. Its apparent by the typing of swiys unease and its kinda hard to understand some of it. But swiy will be suprised how well suboxone works to get off.

The hard part is when its all said and done, just keeping clean. So the situation is a doctor 100mi away that gives the doses daily? And it would be a 9 day quick taper?

If it is... try to find a doc thats closer. Or if thats not possible then just do it. Its only 9 days, and in exchange swiy will have her life back. Its totally worth it.

Peace
  #5  
Old 23-02-2011, 02:36
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

the short program yes only this doc..... Otherwise, have a script and can do it w/out doc. I have driven myself crazy so just going to settle down and think. All of the docs here want a longer program and much more mg..like 3 8 mg a day to start... quick taper alone with no supervision or drive and drive and drive.. could and may go stay in San Diego for a week or ten days and be done with it. But they will not come all the way out here. Also could go to doc and get script and first dose and then do it the quick way. But have to do taxes and get things in order and then can go.
  #6  
Old 23-02-2011, 02:44
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

No no no, subutex will put you into precipitated withdrawals just the same as suboxone so be careful, their only difference is suboxone has naloxone in it so people do not abuse it buy shooting up. Just wait as long as you can and when you think you can't wait any longer and the withdrawals are bad, start off with a small piece and see if it helps.

TarBaby added 4 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Helll NOOOOOOO you do not need 24mg subs for a 90mg oxy habit, don't do it.

The most you might need is like 4mg maybe 6 tops and that might be to much, taper down after like a week, don't go over two weeks on subs or you ill have to withdraw from them and it is a lot more drawn out than oxy withdrawal.

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valuable contribution with a good correction of the mentioned Dose, real Harm Reduction- Well done!

Last edited by TarBaby; 23-02-2011 at 02:44. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #7  
Old 23-02-2011, 03:49
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Thank you very much. I know. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
  #8  
Old 23-02-2011, 19:11
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Would suggest to get the suboxone or subutex for swiy, and then do it on her own. Plan it from the start calculating dosages for each day and then make sure there is only that much sub for that amount of time. That way it pretty much forces her to do what she needs to do. But guess it all depends on how she feels about that.

And ya 24 mg would be ridiculous. Swims friend was shooting .25-.5g of nearly pure heroin daily (80mg OC did nothing) and only needed 1mg or less doses. But it seems some people react alot differently to suboxone than others. Swims other friend was able to take 3 8mg tablets a day and be fine. But this wouldn't be for her.

He would suggest getting hands on the 2mg tablets if possible. Then break them into the right sized pieces.

Hope this all works out,
Peace

Last edited by Ghetto_Chem; 24-02-2011 at 18:32.
  #9  
Old 23-02-2011, 21:57
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Thank you all very much. Tomorrow she is starting suboxone or subutex under doctors care. I am a bit scared due to withdrawals, but feel need to be under doc care. Thank you. The taper also begins same day in a way. again thanks so much and will keep everyone posted.
  #10  
Old 25-02-2011, 02:23
miws miws is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

moderate to severe w/d.

(a)yes, moderate to severe meaning very uncomfortable, you know in bed, sweating, not sleeping and every hour feels forever.

upside to this:

Once you feel like this, knowing that you are going to get dispensed a medication that will have you feeling normal, no depression and motivated feeling within one, to two hours later.

what is better then that, imagine (a) and having no upside! and then go from that to even more severe as days come, with more and more depression... a couple hours after the induction phase, (a) will be laughable, seriously.
  #11  
Old 25-02-2011, 04:47
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

wow. thanks. not quite like that. bad cramps. very tired. but ok. more tomorrow. thank you rough day.
  #12  
Old 04-03-2011, 17:50
mikzemaj mikzemaj is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

SWIM was in the same position as you PSpal but took abuot 150 mg of oxycodone daily.

In my experiences, which was about 2 hours ago of my first time using suboxone film, I last took a dose of oxy at about 10 pm last night. I don't know about how or when your W/d symptoms kicks in but mine kicks in every morning which was about a total of 12 hours since i last used. I wake up at around 9:30 and wait until 10 to take it made me feel better. I don't know why but here is what I did.

take 1 mg. 30 minutes later take 2mg. if that still doesn't help than take 4mg. This helped me just a tad bit the w/d symptoms were still very active in me. then about 2 hours later I took the other half of the film and it helped me tremendously.

So pretty much try tapering your way to a higher dose until u feel comfortable and that should do the trick as long as it's been after 12 horus of your last use.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:32
PSsalgal PSsalgal is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Thanks everybody. Day 9 Subutex. Working with doc and he wants to take longer than I to wean. Dose is too high and I will begin to wean Tues, Now on 20 mg. was taking oxycodone over 100 mg a day and others before for most of life and I am 61. I am in pain and that is OK. I will do this. I will begin to wean more quickly. Surely not necessary to take so much. Docs want you to just stay on.... I will get it done. Thanks so much. I will post again. Today was rough, taxes, cleaning, in pain and doc not wanting to wean. So, will do what I do and I have a plan. will post tomorrow just wanted to say thanks. I must rest. Thanks...
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Old 15-03-2011, 17:56
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

^^ any update for us PSsalgal? How are you feeling?
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Old 18-03-2011, 14:10
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Hi PSsalgal,

I'm not sure what your current status is. I have a lot of experience with Sub. I was on it 5 years. I went off it because of severe pain, and now I'm trying to get back on it. There's a lot less craziness with Sub. So here is my advice. (btw, I'm 58 so I'm almost your age, and like you I got hooked due to pain problems)

Subutex is better than Suboxone because of the Naloxone in the Subox. But if you must use Subox just don't swallow your saliva. At least try not to. Give your mouth at least 1 minute to absorb the Bupe and then spit the saliva out.

I'd say you can stay on Sub 3 weeks, after which you will get hooked on it. I had to do that and I was on it 5 years. It was a very good 5 years. I never desired anything else while I was on Subx. I used to take about 5 mg a day. But it varied. Some days I took 4 mg and some days 8 mg. I wish I never stopped. Although I stopped due to back pain, not to get high. It does take years to get off Sub. I'm off it a whole year and it still effects me. I still get wds, but I have been on other opiates for pain. But even without them, the wds won't stop. So it's probably best if you do a quick detox with it. Wean as fast as you can. Most docs don't understand how to use it anyway. This is my best advice I can give you.

I re-read your last post. 20 mg of Subx is WAY TOO Much. Remember this. With Sub Less = More. That means you feel better on low doses. I'd say jump down to 16 mg a day and then every 4 days try to reduce the dose 2 - 4 mg. It takes 4 days to feel the full effects of a dose reduction. Once you're down to 4 - 8 mg a day you feel much better. Less fatigue, and your mood will improve. I stayed on 4 - 8 mg for 5 years and it was the best 5 years since I turned 40. So just reduce the dose as fast as you can. Don't be afraid of the low doses. They work better. I wish I knew you from 9 days ago. My 1st Sub doc also had me taking 24 mg a day. I was sooo happy once I reduced the dose. You will be too.
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Old 19-03-2011, 01:28
mikzemaj mikzemaj is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photobug View Post
Hi PSsalgal,

It takes 4 days to feel the full effects of a dose reduction. Once you're down to 4 - 8 mg a day you feel much better. Less fatigue, and your mood will improve.
Ahh I see... The zombiness and fatique was such a pain in the ass that SWIM just completely stopped the treatment and, decided to just go back to his old habits. Maybe I next time, I should hold on for a little longer lol.

Also, how affective is the nalaxone removing technique you mentioned about? Would it work for the films as well too?
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Old 19-03-2011, 02:48
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Hi Mikez,

The main thing to remember with anything that contains Buprenorphine is that Less = More. What that means is you feel way better on low doses. Now if you're seriously opiate dependant like my cat, who has been taking them 14 years due to pain and injuries, is this. If you want to do maintenance with a Bupe product there is such a thing as too low. For my cat too low is 3 mg every day or less. I have taken 3 mg a day at times but I can't keep it up. For me the ideal dose is 5 mg a day of Subutex. Not Suboxone.

But that was what you asked about. I have never even seen the films, much less tried them. But I will assume they work the same as the pills, yes??? You dissolve them under your tongue, right? The trick is to keep the saliva in your mouth as long as you can without swallowing it. To accomplish this I tell people to never do more than 2 mg at a time. You want to give your mouth as much time as you can to absorb the Bupe. But then you want to Spit that nasty Nalox out. I never really had to do this because I've been lucky enough to always find a doc who gives me Subutex. But I have advised many people on this procedure. They tell me it works. If they had been swallowing their saliva it usually takes a week for them to feel the difference doing the Spit Trick. If you can get Subutex instead of Subox then do that. I think you also need less of Subx because there's no Nalox in it.

I did take Subox for the first 6 months I was on Sub, but I didn't know about the spit trick back then, and the Nalox caused all sorts of problems. Including my ankles and legs swelled up like balloons. And the docs had no idea what was causing this. They sent me to all kinds of docs too. No one had a clue. So I would think that the Spit Trick should work with the films too.

Let me explain what happens when Nalox gets into you. (you seem to be interested, so I'll explain this) As you probably know, Nalox causes instant wds. It also neutralizes any opiate. Nalox is 1 of the drugs docs use to stop a Heroin overdose. It's that strong. Well, we take Sub to Not feel wds and to feel better in general, right. The Bupe in the Subox can and will do that. But when the Nalox gets into you it causes you to feel wds. So your common sense says, "I need more". So then you take more Subox, whether it's the film or tabs. So you take more, and the Bupe makes you feel better, but then the Nalox causes you to feel some withdrawal symptoms. Then what? Well, once again common sense seems to say "take some more". And if you don't know all this, you probably will. I had a really bad Sub doc back then, and he had me take as high as 32 mg a day of Subox. And I felt horrible. If I had the ways and means to go back to pain pills I would have, but I didn't. But I was worse than a zombie on 32 mg a day. So then I went down to 24 mg a day, and I was still worse than a zombie. It was a living nightmare and I had no idea what was happening, why, or what to do. And then 1 morning my Gall Bladder ruptured. Usually removing a Gall Bladder is routine and you're in and out the next day. But since mine had ruptured and I was full of puss I had to be in the hospital 5 days. While there they kept me out of pain with Morphine IM shots. When I was released I had to be on Morphine pain pills for the next 4 or 5 weeks. In that time all the ill effects of the Nalox disappeared. I also did some heavy reading and I learned Subutex was better. So when it came time to quit the Morphine pills and go back to Sub I convinced the bad doc to give me Subutex. I then quit that doc and found a good Sub doc who kept me on Subx for 5 years, and those were 5 of the best years of my life. For 5 years I took between 3 - 8 mg a day of Subutex and I had a happy cat. Then 1& 1/2 years ago extreme back pains made me go off Subx and onto pain pills. That was a new nightmare. I am only just now, today, finding a doc who will give me Subx again. It's not the worlds best pain killer, but it will have to do. I had once again reached such a high dose of pain meds that I felt bad whether I took them or not. I've been on pain meds since 1997 and I noticed this one thing many times. After a long enough time, and after a really high dose a long time, I feel terrible on any of the opiates, it doesn't matter which one. But with Subx I stayed at the same dose for 5 years. Never needed more, and it always worked. You also need to give Sub, or Bupe, time to let your body adjust to it. This can take a few days to 2 weeks. After the Gall Bladder surgery it took 2 weeks for my body to adjust to Subx again. I felt mild wds for 2 weeks. But after that I was fine for 5 years. And now I have to do it again.

It's not a perfect solution. Bupe is not a miracle drug. But after 14 years on opiates, and at my age of 50, I don't know if my body will ever function normally again without opiates. Basically I hate them. I like them for a while, and then I hate them. So if I was 24 again, I'd seek to quit them completely. It may take several years to do this. It all depends how long a person has been on them. But eventually I would seek to be rid of them. I don't know if that's possible at my age.
When I was in my 20's I was very into Methamphetamine. I never even wanted to be without it. But I did quit it, and it took several years, but I learned to live without it. My body finally adjusted to not having it. When you're young the body can adjust to almost anything. But at 50, I don't think so.

Therefore, next time you try the treatment hold on a Lot longer if you have to. Remember, the older you get the harder it gets, and the younger you are, the easier it will be. Although it won't be easy at all, but I believe it will be possible. I believe you can do it. But if you can get Subutex to use, then by all means get the Subx. It just makes the whole process that much easier.

Sorry this is so long, but I think you wanted to hear this. I hope I didn't offend you. No offense is meant.

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Excellent post. Very caring and supportive; well written with lots of great info from personal experience.
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very informative
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Old 19-03-2011, 17:26
mikzemaj mikzemaj is offline
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photobug View Post
Hi Mikez.....

Sorry this is so long, but I think you wanted to hear this. I hope I didn't offend you. No offense is meant.
No offense taken photobug. In fact, you are one of the more knowledgeable sources that i've seen around here and i'm greatly appreciative for your help and input. I can definitely see myself benefiting from your posts. I encourage you to keep it up because i can see it having a positive effect on others. Cheers
  #19  
Old 19-03-2011, 19:52
VirtuallyEmotionless VirtuallyEmotionless is offline
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29 y/o Male from USA - Pennsylvania
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Re: Suboxone/Subutex HELP please... how long

My Cheshire Cat is baffled as to why the doc is starting you on such a high dose. That's insane.

He could understand if SWIY was an opiate abuser. If that were the case the doc wouldn't be offering up Subutex as easily as he is.

Listen to the SWIMmers above, they've offered up some pretty good information. 20 milligrams is completely unnecessary. The only time a dose that high should be used in my Cheshire Cat's opinion is in the case of the patient abusing full agonist opiates. Doses that high can cause a complete block therefore preventing the user from getting high. So as you can see, it prevents a relapse because there is no point in taking any opiates when you're not going to feel them anyway.

Honestly, lower doses of Buprenorphine would be ideal for someone that wouldn't relapse as opposed to high doses. Higher doses would be more ideal if the person was very likely to relapse.

It's pretty sad that doctors do things like this. All the people my Cheshire Cat knows get prescribed 60-90 8 milligram Suboxone's a month, and they only take quarter pieces at a time.

If SWIY isn't careful, my Cheshire Cat can see this doctor getting you more dependant than SWIY already is.

Buprenorphine is an extremely potent opiate. There has been at least one reported death of an opiate naive individual taking 2 milligrams sublingually. There's probably more but the pamphlet my Cheshire Cat is showing me doesn't list a number. Don't underestimate the power of Buprenorphine.

Here is an opiate dosage comparison chart to give you an idea of just how strong Buprenorphine is.

My Cheshire Cat has never been physically addicted to anything until Suboxone, so again, don't underestimate it.

My Cheshire Cat wishes SWIY all the best in their detox, stay strong!

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buprenorphine, pain management and addiction, recovery from addiction, swelling at injection site, withdrawals

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