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View Poll Results: Which is better: Heroin or Cannabis
Heroin 258 30.57%
Cannabis 461 54.62%
Bit of both- like them equally 64 7.58%
Neither- both suck 61 7.23%
Voters: 844. You may not vote on this poll

 
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  #1  
Old 26-01-2011, 13:14
On The Nod On The Nod is offline
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Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Okay so two drugs which can be taken every day in swims opinion are Cannabis and Heroin, both can be used and have the potential to improve or disrupt one's life.

I just wanted to get your feel on which one was better:


Here are some two factors which I think are the most important;

  • The High (Quality, length, durability)
  • Functionality
more are, which you may wish to discuss as well:

  • Mental health every day after use
  • Physical effects
  • Stability of Use
  • Effects on family
  • Cost/ Value for money
  • Effect on employment
There are many things to consider and some people may wish to discuss them all, pick one out or summarize.
swim appreciattes many people may not have have used both (or even one) excessively but still add if you have some experience and wish too.

So, anyway just wanted to hear what you guys think is better to function on and have every day taking into account 'the high' and functionality' etc.. You can include one off use but I guess most people will be taking it every day so its probably wiser to compare for this mindset over the one off use which is diffferent for everybody I guess.

Personally swim thinks Heroin is a more functional drug to be on at work swim is never docile, dopey or even depressed from H, cannabis for swim although he only did it when he was younger would cause much more pyschotic sympons and he would find it a lot more difficult to communicate or even hold a conversation on as his thoughts while being deeper and more vivid would make it very distressing to communicate with the outside world as the paranioa and anxiety would be there.

People he know's on cannabis seem to be able to hold down a job and work but swims knows that they have mental health problems and some very bright guys swim knows seem to have trouble with their thoughts while on Cannabis.

Heroin you don't get any of that problem thinking is lucid and dreamy while never being uncontrallable its like a more relaxed version of you with no anxiety. The downside is addiction which left unchecked can get out of control and lead even though one feels more relaxed on opiates to losing their job and following a 'junkie lifestyle'

Personally swim prefers Heroin, i think it's a more dangerous drug but it is a much better option to live and function on swim believes than weed, the High is another story and I will go into that later on.

So were discussing here what you think is better 'overall'; one drug: Heroin V Cannabis all the side effetcs versus all the Highs; If God and The Devil had a debate over which one was better; which one would win?

OTN

Last edited by On The Nod; 27-01-2011 at 12:48.
  #2  
Old 26-01-2011, 15:49
death&decay death&decay is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Better in what way? In terms of health, purely based on the chemical of the drug, then probably heroin... In terms of how euphoric and pleasurable then it is no doubt heroin. In terms of how it affects family, in terms of long term health risk, dangers and all that then heroin is worse for you than weed.

There is no doubt in any heroin junkies head that heroin is the best drug of all time, weed doesn't even scratch the surface. Trust Swim, he smoked weed for probably about 10 years before he ever tried heroin.

Swim likes both, but if only had a few bucks in his pocket and had to choose between a bag or a g of chronic, he would no doubt choose a bag.

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  #3  
Old 26-01-2011, 16:27
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Swim has already said his opinions in the Heroin Health (debate).

If he looks at the all around "better". He still thinks that cannabis is better. Although heroin has made him feel amazing. Cannabis has never made him feel shitty, it may not take him as high but with no comedown who can complain?

Even when he was in the deep depths of his heroin addiction he still got his bag of weed. Just like the last guy said.

Peace
  #4  
Old 26-01-2011, 17:07
St Dismas Novitiate St Dismas Novitiate is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

I would have to go with cannabis, if for no other reason than the inherent dangers in injecting heroin. You are never really sure of what you are getting, purity/strength, etc. If you are expecting "regular" heroin and you get something like, say, fentanyl instead, you could be screwed. Once the plunger hits the bottom, you can't take it back! Obviously, not all users inject heroin, but it seems as if most eventually gravitate to that method.

Cannabis users don't usually contract Hep C/HIV from a dirty joint, they don't usually nod off with a joint in their mouth in public restrooms, and they don't usually engage in other risky behaviors (prostitution, etc.) to support their habits. "Usually" being the key word! Of course, not all heroin users do these things either, but the risk of doing them is greater, I would think.

It's hard to O.D. on weed, although you DO have a tendency to run out of food quite often and you end up watching stupid shit on TV a lot, because you don't want to get up off the couch. Lack of motivation can certainly be an issue with cannabis, in work, family/social interactions, and life in general for some.

Heroin won't normally give you lung, throat, or mouth cancer like smoking plant based materials will, so maybe that helps even things out a little, though.

My friend Nanook once had a friend who got involved in heroin-snorting, then smoking, and finally injecting, and it was hard to watch that person collapse into a wreck so quickly. Prostitution, arrests, abcesses and blown veins, overdoses, and the complete horror stories that are heroin addiction. It broke Nanook's heart to watch, until both him and others had to step in and put a stop to it.

As I stated earlier, not all users have bad things like that happen to them, but it probably happens more with heroin than it does with weed, and both Nanook and I are prejudiced against heroin, so his opinion may not be totally balanced.
  #5  
Old 26-01-2011, 17:20
anjinash anjinash is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

FWSD can shoot a bag of dope and not only go through his workday without rousing suspicion, but actually do better work and is more motivated. FWSD even takes a couple of tokes before work and he has to wear a pair of shades all night to hide his bloodshot eyes, will become anti-social and can't focus on many tasks. In this way, H is definitely superior. FWSD can't really deal with other people when he's baked, not unless he's dealing with other baked people.

That being said, FWSD can smoke weed daily for months on end and then quit with only a few days of discomfort: loss of appetite, insomnia, moody ... but by day 3 he'll be right as rain again. If FWSD shot dope for more than three days in a row and stopped, he'll get so sick he'll have to call out for at least a day, more likely two... and then have the shakes and a deep, deep depression for another week or two after.

FWSD also would note that the high he gets from weed lasts considerably longer than the one from H, and at a fraction of the cost. Nothing beats the initial rush after shooting up, FWSD would admit.. but after 20 minutes that rush is gone and he just has higher motivation and a better mood for the rest of the day - all positive things, but not high none-the-less! Depending on his tolerance at the time of smoking cannabis, FWSD's initial high can last anywhere between 1 - 4 hours, and much easier to maintain that high with additional tokes throughout the day. If one wants to maintain a high for extended periods of time, cannabis kicks the piss out of H in that regard according to FWSD.

FWSD can also smoke weed in vicinity of many of his friends and family without causing an uproar (they may not like it, but most recognize that weed is not even remotely fatal and would rather have FWSD abuse that than alcohol, etc.)

If FWSD tried using H around anyone but his one buddy who also uses it, he'd be ratted out or at least lose friends. FWSD finds people get VERY judgmental where heroin is involved. FWSD once made the mistake of telling his wife that he TRIED H just once and he's still dealing with the ramifications of that.

Ultimately, it's kind of an apples/oranges comparison in FWSD opinion. Two very different types of drugs that do very different things. If FWSD had to choose one, he'd choose cannabis.. since he knows he can't do H more than twice a week without totally fucking his life sideways.
  #6  
Old 27-01-2011, 09:12
On The Nod On The Nod is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

The thing swim loves about H is is that you know your not gonna get Mental Health problems I mean I can snort/ IV that stuff for years and there is no way swim is gonna get anxiety, have a bad trip, inviage pychosis or trigger any underlying phyciartic conditions is just pure bliss without the side effects.

Coming off it is a different story but I hate Dope for that reason there's always a chance you could start getting paranoid or losing your head in a room full of people and have an anxiety attack with H however there's no chance of this occuring ever.

I don't really know about value for money I suppose weed is cheaper to mantain a habit Heroin costing roughly £20 a day for an expereinced user which is still retaviley expensive but you do have to have it every day where I supppose a cannabis user doesn't.

And the High, well swim actually used to love the High of Dope (weed) swim gets very intense thoughts and would see thing and he used to have a great time listening to music. Every thought becomes enhanced and the mind goes deep which if you want to relax and spend time by yourself is a interesting expereince no doubt.

Heroin its all about feeling relaxed and comfortable, its not about expanding your thoughts or indulging in some wild adventurew of the mind its more realeasing your fears and feeling free to communicate with others, show some love to those around and generally lose the everyday inhibitions that bind us from saying what we really feel. Of course theres the first two hours where all swims tensions and stresses are replaced by a warm, swimming feeling where swim will happily play Xbox or socialize with total relaxition, in a state of calm and general well being without being disturbed.

Funnily enough swim sort of likes the cannabis high and in to Heroin its actually closer than swim would imagine, I think now swim would say heroin but back when things were good and cannabis made swim feel great I think Dope would have it as the hallucinations were fun.

I just think there's so much more risk of triggering pyschologal depression, creating a mental illness or just going 'stir crazy' with weed than there ever is or will be with Heroin which is why opiates will always be my Number One.

Last edited by On The Nod; 27-01-2011 at 12:37.
  #7  
Old 15-02-2011, 09:01
Holly021255 Holly021255 is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

My pony loathes cannabis, and has tried it about 5-7 times, with disastrous results every time except once. She has tried multiple strains, and they all gave her the appearance of a tweaker going through meth psychosis, or laughing insanely loud without cessation. Then came the extreme chills and anxiety. The one time pony didn't have this reaction, she ate a brownie, went to bed, woke up the next day, ate a shitload of food, didn't remember a thing, and basically was a walking zombie. She sorta felt like she'd taken massive amounts of thorazine and clonazepam.

Pony has also been IVing heroin for a year, and has been physically addicted many times, kicked, got clean, went back on dope, all with very little disruption to her life. My pony functions at a higher level on heroin than sober, while cannabis completely destroys her ability to be productive. Heroin is superior in each and every category the OP listed, except cost/value for money perhaps.
  #8  
Old 22-02-2011, 05:14
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

MJ now makes swim paranoid, makes swim think of all the mistakes he has made in his life, all the bad choices. MJ makes swim self-conscious in a negative way, paranoid, and the thinking that it provokes makes swim depressed. Swim does not want to feel this way for free, let alone go out of his way to do something that may even cost him money and wind up making him feel this way (Swim's experience with MJ 20 something years ago was enjoyable though).

H makes swim's severe anxiety symptoms disappear which is a Godsend for swim. Swim wishes he had a lifetime supply.
  #9  
Old 22-02-2011, 07:41
m.swinehart81 m.swinehart81 is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

In my good friends opinion heroin is by far superior! He has done both extensively but heroin has by far been the better experience. Of course coming off heroin is much much worse than it could ever possibly be to stop smoking weed. I see ppl stating they feel some discomfort when they stop smokin herb but my friend has never experienced any discomfort from that. My friend very rarely smokes pot anymore... This is for a couple reasons. One being he can't function on the shit without everyone he comes into contact with knowing he is fucked up. In all reality he can't even think straight when smoking pot. The second reason being it often makes him paranoid these days. Also smoking pot is obviously safer than using heroin so in that sense I understand the arguement that pot is better but as far as my friend is concerned pot doesn't even come close to being as amazing as heroin is. As long as he doesn't have financial issues he would be a very happy person if he were to live the rest of his life using heroin daily! I know many will say, and have said that this is because he is an addict which I definitely agree plays a part but no matter what my friend would still feel the same way about pot even if he weren't. A heroin addict...
  #10  
Old 22-02-2011, 10:07
zerozerohero zerozerohero is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

SWIM would never had expected such a question really - RTFM would be SWIM's first answer, but since one so candidly asks:

there is no better drug. One just has to know which risks are associated with both substances and see if he's willing to take that risk.

- Heroin is highly addictive, as opposed to cannabis
- Heroin is a substance on which one can easily overdose (with deadly consequences), as opposed to cannabis
- Heroin often contains dangerous adulterants, as opposed to cannabis, which is very rarely laced
- Heroin has very rough physiological effects on one's body, not taking in account the adulterants which may have even worse effects, also as opposed to cannabis - plus, one only knows "what's in there" when it already entered one's body, so dying from having snorted or shot bad material is very very easy.

To SWIM it's like comparing the occasional week-end beer with the daily bottle of scotch - sure, one will get alot more watsed slurping up one bottle of scotch every day, but the health issues will be a lot greater and it's highly unlikely that the fun will remain the same over time.

As for anyone blindly advocating heroin over cannabis for any reasons whatsoever: guys, seriously? Are you out of your minds? This is a HARM REDUCTION FORUM, can you please explain where the harm reduction is in pointing someone to H for some obscure reasons that are highly subjective and personal ?

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+25 for stating the obvious and trying to bring come sense to a silly and potentially dangerous thread - well done!
Most sensible post on this thread, people seem a bit misinformed about heroin addiction
  #11  
Old 22-02-2011, 13:10
mickey_bee Gold member mickey_bee is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by On The Nod View Post
I don't really know about value for money I suppose weed is cheaper to mantain a habit Heroin costing roughly £20 a day for an expereinced user which is still retaviley expensive but you do have to have it every day where I supppose a cannabis user doesn't.
Swim has to say he's met very few of what he'd call 'experienced' heroin addicts who spend that amount/day on gear. The addicts swim knows spend at least double that per day, normally on top of methadone.

It may take years, decades, but it's near impossible to control a habit on heroin forever. Whereas swim knows many people who've been consistently smoking weed for decades and keep their useage levels within their budget at all times.

Heroin addicts cannot keep their addiction within their budget at all times, because they have to have it - which is why 85% of heroin addicts in the UK are unemployed, and a great deal of them are involved in crime to fund their habit, homeless, or living in hostels....

For swim, the 2 drugs are completely incomparable. When was the last time you saw a sweaty mother using her baby's pram to help her shoplifting so she can then rush off to meet her weed dealer?
  #12  
Old 25-03-2011, 03:26
XxCatching_A_NodxX XxCatching_A_NodxX is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

She likes the high she gets from heroin better and occasionally gets bad anxiety and doesnt want to be around people when she smokes weed. She would rather sit at home and watch tv. At least when she gets dope she has a friend that she goes down to the city with to go get the dope although she has lost most of her friends due to her heroin use. She also has experienced a LOT of bad consequense in the five years shes been using heroin such as legal troubles, time spent in and out of rehabs, lost of trust with family and friends, health problems, poor school performance etc. She also would not got and rob her family, friends, sell all her valuables or go and rob other people for some weed, only when shes dope sick and needs money. So all and all she likes the high from heroin better but there are way more negative consequences from heroin than pot and its pretty fucking addicting plus none of her friends have died from a marijuan overdoes but she has lost so many to heroin overdoses. She likes heroin better but think marijuana is a better drug for people to do.

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  #13  
Old 28-03-2011, 08:40
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

My Alleycat likes them both. However, smoking MJ gets boring after awhile as you can only get so high. It's fun though & she does enjoy it. Only thing she hates about it is the munchies & the fact that you can smell it a mile away! Heroin is such a better high & doesn't make her eat everything in sight. It's a good thing she doesn't have access to H too often.
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Old 30-03-2011, 05:35
m16800 m16800 is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Both of them seem like a good idea to me. If i had to pick heroin would be hands down my choice of being better.
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Old 18-12-2011, 09:28
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

I highly disagree with the accusations that heroin will kill you (not saying that it can't when used incorrectly). Heroin is simply a faster acting form of morphine, which it is broken down into once it reaches the brain. Heroin used to be a common pharmacuetical until compelling evidence suggested that it was too dangerous for general consumption from the population.

In terms of medical effectiveness, heroin is much greater than cannabis. Medical evidence for cannabis is complete garbage, and honestly just a meager attempt at legalization. There is no good reason for cannabis to be legal at all. Heroin is the number one pain reliever, and the addictive rate for most people perscribed opiates in general is less than 1% because proper dosing protocol is always taken into consideration.

Now, for you cannabis lovers out there, the cannabis high does not even come close to the high of heroin. Whoever said that cannabis lasts longer has their facts wrong. When a tolerance is created cannabis highs usually last about an hour and half to 3 hours. Heroin tolerance the users still get high, except the ones that use heroin daily chase the rush. This is what I believe creates the addiction because the rush is so great. The combined high of heroin can last from 1 to 4 hours depending on potency, and it is a powerful euphoria combined with analgesic properties. Cannabis is a rather mediocre high with hightened sense to most stimuli, and creates an awful paranoia. Many users do not notice these effects when they use a lot.

I used to love cannabis. I thought it was the most wonderful thing. This is when I was kid tho. As an adult I realize that cannabis brings a false sense of happiness and bright reality that does not really exist. Whereas Heroin just makes you feel good. It does not bring you into some imaginary world, you are totally normal but high as hell.

For the argument for heroin against cannabis.. I am 100% heroin over cannabis, cannabis is complete garbage compared to heroin, that is when heroin is used properly.

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Old 18-12-2011, 10:06
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
Heroin is the number one pain reliever, and the addictive rate for most people perscribed opiates in general is less than 1% because proper dosing protocol is always taken into consideration.
My this is an old thread that probably should have died its death..I'm intrigued by this claim - can you provide a source for it? After all, the number of accidental opioid overdoses in the United States alone was about 3,000 in 1999; by 2007 it had increased to 12,000. In addition, there has been a fivefold increase over the last decade in the number of people admitted to substance abuse programs for opioid addiction. You can see numerous popular news stories quoting this health news section of the forum, including 05 April 2011 MSNBC one I've referenced here "Prescription pain med abuse a growing problem" - and there's plenty of scientific research that can be pulled up too, I'm just going for the mainstream here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
For the argument for heroin against cannabis.. I am 100% heroin over cannabis, cannabis is complete garbage compared to heroin, that is when heroin is used properly.
So what is 'properly'? Here is the UK we have roughly 70 doctors licensed to provide prescription diamorphine to entrenched users (46 of them currently use the license to script to approximately 500 people, and that was as of 2000. Numbers are not increasing significantly either!) - is that 'properly'? If so, I'd agree with you - for those patients, its appropriate and works very well.
When morphine or its derivatives are used in a medical setting (end-stage terminal pain patients for instance), then again that is 'properly'. Street heroin though...?

We are really comparing apples and oranges here.
Read Mickey Bee's post...when was the last time you saw a sweaty mother using her baby's pram to shoplift so she could go meet her weed dealer?

Heroin itself does minimal damage to the physical body when compared to many drugs - but I'm not counting the risks associated with its ROA (injecting and all its very serious complications, and things like COPD for smokers), and the social issues surrounding it that far outweigh the benefits in general.
Blame the laws, blame stigma, blame whatever, but romantising heroin by saying it is 'safer' than cannabis is farcical and ill-informed.

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Old 18-12-2011, 10:59
HitManHSam HitManHSam is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Heroin can be used properly... what are you talking about? Safe injection procedures, clean syringes, and cooking the heroin to decrease the amount of microbial bacteria in the sample.. And using "proper" doses. Now one thing swim cannot say for sure is the potency between samples of heroin, but swim what swim does know is the difference in color. The color is always a good indicator of potency, now if one was to have a unreliable source this can prove to be dangerous, but in swims case this is never the case

Swim always has knowledge ahead of time of what he is getting, and he uses small amounts at a time, and decides to stop for extended periods of time to avoid withdrawl. Street heroin is never "safe" but you can make it safe by making good desicions

HitManHSam added 4 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

Now for your evidence I provide: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...871605001511ou an article that demonstrates how pain medication under strict dosing protocol can in fact be safe. The overdoses most likely come from people who ARE NOT PERSCRIBED TO IT....

Unfortunately this is just the abstract I would have to purchase this.. so my bad

HitManHSam added 2 Minutes and 49 Seconds later...

Sorry the link does not work here is the title of the article

Development of pharmaceutical heroin preparations for medical co-prescription to opioid dependent patients

look it up in google scholar

HitManHSam added 6 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

I will retract the 1%, because this is from an old source.. I will agree with you there. I will find some evidence to support that it is in fact not, a major issue, even with patients who had addiction issues.

Last edited by HitManHSam; 18-12-2011 at 10:59. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #18  
Old 18-12-2011, 11:31
southern girl southern girl is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post


I will retract the 1%, because this is from an old source.. I will agree with you there. I will find some evidence to support that it is in fact not, a major issue, even with patients who had addiction issues.
Um, I would just like to butt in here for a moment to say that I am a chronic pain patient that has addiction issues and I can tell you that it is in fact a major issue-for me anyway. Now I am not prescribed diamorphine, but I am prescribed oxycodone in the form of OxyContin- 60mgs- twice a day, so not a "light" dose by any means, and as you said in another post in another thread that there is not that much of a difference between oxycodone and diamorphine (heroin).

I get my prescription for free (basically) because Im in the UK and I get two doses a day (not counting breakthrough meds) which I know the quality and potency of so technically you think I would be living in an addicts dream. But its not that easy. People seem to be under the illusion that legality or money are the only issues but they seem to forget addiction itself.

Im not talking the physical addiction, Im talking about the psychological addiction. I can tell you that I struggle psychologically daily just like the next addict, regardless if Im prescribed it or not. If money and legal status are the only concerns than why is it that these rock stars or celebrity's go to rehab or want to get clean? I want so bad to be finished with the evil that is opiates, but unfortunately Im not able to right now. As soon as I am able to, I will be coming off of oxycodone and never looking back. That is my dream for the future....sad aint it?

So Im gonna have to agree with the wise lady that is catseye, not because I love her (even though I do), but because heroin is being romanticized here. You may deny that, but unfortunately that a phase of addiction that everyone must go through, I did too....now I just want to be done with it all..

By the way, Im not the only chronic pain patient here. There are many in the addiction and recovery forum who are having the same struggle. I was never addicted or had a problem with opiates before my pain started. And I am in no way saying that everyone who has chronic pain will have addiction struggles, even past addicts- like missparkles- a very well respected member and my personal hero or heroine (no pun intended), who was a heroin addict for almost 40yrs and is now clean, but is now prescribed morphine and has no addiction problems- so there is always an exception to the rule. Not everyone who is prescibed opiates will become addicted, physically or psychologically.

SG.xxx
  #19  
Old 18-12-2011, 12:18
HitManHSam HitManHSam is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

I was by no means downplaying any type of addiciton faced by an individual user.. and I am sorry for the fact that you find yourself to be psychologically addicted, but this is a pretty loose term. When you find something you like.. you continue to do it. If you like to play soccer you will keep playing soccer, so you could be technically "pyschologically addicted/dependant" on soccer..

My point is that although you might have to take 60mgs of oxycodone a day, there are other drugs that you can combine with your perscription to "offput" the effects of opiate withdrawl, and or help ween you off them. That was the article that I posted. I am simply stating that heroin is not as "bad" as people make it out to be.

I myself have had addictive "phases" but found with good self control it can be kept at bay. But this is just me, and again, no emphasis on the individual user..

I do not think that cannabis on the other hand has any medical value or could be said is "safer." Although you did not say this that is what this forum is about. Cannabis is found to activate the same reward pathways as many other drugs thus making it a "gateway" drug.

It really depends on the USER AND DOSE because you have to take 60mgs.. you should take something with it.
  #20  
Old 18-12-2011, 13:27
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
Heroin can be used properly... what are you talking about? Safe injection procedures, clean syringes, and cooking the heroin to decrease the amount of microbial bacteria in the sample..
'cooking' would need to happen for around 15 minutes @ boiling point to destroy the bacteria to any significant level, afaik.
Yes, 'safer' injecting practices such as you mention are needed of course, and will help protect against blood borne viruses...but they don't address things such as abscesses, collapsed veins, necrosis, sepsis, endocarditis...etc etc etc

Quote:
And using "proper" doses. Now one thing swim cannot say for sure is the potency between samples of heroin, but swim what swim does know is the difference in color. The color is always a good indicator of potency, now if one was to have a unreliable source this can prove to be dangerous, but in swims case this is never the case
Never? Lucky you See, spouting stuff like 'colour = potency' is what gets naive users into trouble. And as far as unreliable sources go..well your source is only as 'reliable' as whomever they got it from. And unless you plan on growing some poppies and milking the latex yourself..well, its a crap shoot innit? Nobody is arguing that pharma heroin isn't safer - but as you say, street heroin is never 'safe'...good decisions have little to do with obtaining a illicit drug from a source that you think is reliable, only to find out that the gear you got was cut with something unexpected - or was more potent than expected.


Quote:
Unfortunately this is just the abstract I would have to purchase this.. so my bad
So I'm guessing that you weren't able to read the whole article then? I've attached the pdf, I've got shed-loads of others that pretty much say the same thing...or browse the archives here for document uploads.
Nobody is arguing that in a clinical setting/scripted it is 'safer', trust me - in that respect you are preaching to the choir here

Quote:
from Development of pharmaceutical heroin preparations for medical co-prescription to opioid dependent patients, p292:Safety can only be ensured by strict dosing schemes to prevent overdose, by supervision following the first 10–15 min after use and by providing a high quality product for injection and clean needles and syringes for its administration. However, alternative formulations are necessary for those who want to change routes of administration to minimise the risk of overdose or that have to, due to damaged veins.
So, in the real world, those users who are fortunate enough to be scripted diamorphine would fall into the 'safe' category...along with the end stage terminally ill patients in hospital whom are being cared for by medical professionals. Nothing I said in my first post disagreed with that. Street users, your average ab/user will NOT be the ones we are truly discussing in this thread?
The quoted article serves no purpose other than to outline potential methods of administration in a clinical setting
If you are proposing that all entrenched addicts should be scripted it, there are plenty of threads about that here and I'd get your point - but to justify use as 'safe' and try and draw comparisons between pharma and street H is dangerous and ill-informed. And the hallmark of a new user in the throes of early "chipping"...best of luck with that, step into the R&A section and see how many others started out singing the same song. Be safe.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Klous et al.pdf (201.7 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by catseye; 18-12-2011 at 13:29. Reason: added pdf
  #21  
Old 18-12-2011, 14:07
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
If you like to play soccer you will keep playing soccer, so you could be technically "pyschologically addicted/dependant" on soccer..

My point is that although you might have to take 60mgs of oxycodone a day, there are other drugs that you can combine with your perscription to "offput" the effects of opiate withdrawl, and or help ween you off them. That was the article that I posted. I am simply stating that heroin is not as "bad" as people make it out to be.


It really depends on the USER AND DOSE because you have to take 60mgs.. you should take something with it.
I take 120mgs a day- 60mgs twice a day; I do also take a slew of other medications with it, this thread is about opiates and cannabis so I didnt think my full medical history or all the medication Im currently prescribed, other than opiates, was necessary. Im also not worried about opiate withdrawal. I have a fantastic Dr who will ween me down slowly when or if Im able to come off.

Also, I definitely dont think psychological addiction is a "loose or subjective" term. I also think its ridiculous to compare someone who habitually plays soccer to an opiate addict.

I do, however, agree with you about the stigma attached to heroin. Many people would have no problem popping a Vicoden (hydrocodone) or Percocet (oxycodone) here and there and dont realize that they're in the same family as heroin- the opiate family. So yes, on that point, we agree.

SG.xxx

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I do not like cannabis and although Ive done it, Ive never been a fan. Also this forum is a harm reduction forum, not a cannabis forum. There are plenty of heroin enthusiasts here but majority of them know their facts. Putting the correct information out there so that users can be informed to reduce harm if they decide to use is what this forum is all about.

Last edited by southern girl; 18-12-2011 at 14:21. Reason: EDIT
  #22  
Old 18-12-2011, 14:59
trdofbeingtrd trdofbeingtrd is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

I go with the marijuana. If you do die from it, basically it's a long term thing (other than extreme panic attacks, but sometimes from lung health issues) and while there are drawbacks to smoking marijuana it's all around good for you. Notice I said there are some drawbacks.

I answered this question like this. If I had to be addicted to one of these substances, but loved life and wanted to live a long time, which one would I want to go with?

Mary Jane comes through as my answer every time...................*sigh* I miss her.
  #23  
Old 18-12-2011, 18:02
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
I highly disagree with the accusations that heroin will kill you (not saying that it can't when used incorrectly). Heroin is simply a faster acting form of morphine, which it is broken down into once it reaches the brain. Heroin used to be a common pharmacuetical until compelling evidence suggested that it was too dangerous for general consumption from the population.
*blink blink* Um, Heroin (along with other opioids) kills people all the time, 'correct' use or not. WTF is correct use anyway? This isn't a pharmaceutical drug of known potency - and even if it were, shit still happens. Even shooting up in a different place than you normally do can induce an overdose! Clearly, even when monitored, Heroin was (correctly) deemed too dangerous for general consumption, along with many (most?) other opioids. Also, you *ARE* aware that 'chippers' are at an even greater risk for fatal OD than daily users; which is NOT to say that daily users aren't at risk of fatal OD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
I used to love cannabis. I thought it was the most wonderful thing. This is when I was kid tho. As an adult I realize that cannabis brings a false sense of happiness and bright reality that does not really exist. Whereas Heroin just makes you feel good. It does not bring you into some imaginary world, you are totally normal but high as hell.
Maybe you don't get good Heroin, then! Heroin most DEFINITELY brings on a 'false' sense of happiness and/or contentedness - isn't that the whole POINT? It doesn't bring you into an 'imaginary' world...but eventually brings you into an 'alternative' world you wish you never knew existed, that's for DAMN sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
I myself have had addictive "phases" but found with good self control it can be kept at bay. But this is just me, and again, no emphasis on the individual user.
You're 22 years old. Give it some time, wait for the day you get some seriously stressful shit thrown at you day after day...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HitManHSam View Post
I do not think that cannabis on the other hand has any medical value or could be said is "safer." Although you did not say this that is what this forum is about. Cannabis is found to activate the same reward pathways as many other drugs thus making it a "gateway" drug.
What?! Cannabis is no more a gateway drug than milk is. It's a gateway to the black market, certainly, but just because most crack addicts have also smoked cannabis doesn't mean cannabis leads to crack. I bet nearly all crack addicts drank milk as children, but that doesn't mean every child who drinks milk is destined to be a crack addict. You contradict yourself; if cannabid activates many of the same reward pathways as other drugs, how does this make it useless? And why is *YOUR OPINION* that cannabis has no medical use so important? What makes your opinion that "cannabis is shit, Heroin is TEH AWSUMZ!" more valid/important/believeable than say, my opinion that Heroin is a dangerous drug as it stands right now & cannabis can be a safer & effective way of relieving some types of pain? While pure Heroin has minimal effects on the body (save for maybe constipation), very very few people have access to such a thing, so to argue with that in mind is disingenous. If the choice is street Heroin or street cannabis, cannabis (even smoked) would hands down be the safer choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus View Post
MJ now makes swim paranoid, makes swim think of all the mistakes he has made in his life, all the bad choices. MJ makes swim self-conscious in a negative way, paranoid, and the thinking that it provokes makes swim depressed. Swim does not want to feel this way for free, let alone go out of his way to do something that may even cost him money and wind up making him feel this way (Swim's experience with MJ 20 something years ago was enjoyable though).

H(eroin) makes swim's severe anxiety symptoms disappear which is a Godsend for swim. Swim wishes he had a lifetime supply.
Oh, I so whole-heartedly agree with this! Unfortunately, the rebound anxiety when one is out of Heroin is absolutely fucking ridiculous! I wish wish wish with all my heart that I could like cannabis, as it would make so many things in my life much easier. Alas, it's not to be. *shrug* Oh well!

~Kailey
  #24  
Old 18-12-2011, 19:05
coolhandluke coolhandluke is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

this is the two most lopsided comparison you could ever imagine. beyond comparing apples to oranges. which is better drinking coffee or doing meth? hmm one gets you tweaking out of your mind for days and the other gives you a mild boost and millions of people have been using it their wholes lives without any problems.

so that being said yes heroin gives a much superior high, feels wonderful, really can boost your energy while on it, but there is that one down side, withdrawal. such a horrible intense withdrawal it drives people into doing things like selling your body for heroin, robbing banks, stealing from family and loved ones, and becoming pretty much a monster. so when everyone says how awesome heroin is and just hints about that little bad thing called withdrawal, it really is a very big factor in this equation and in my opinion eclipses any positive effects the high you get from it.

for weed, the high is mild, nothing too intense for really euphoric. it has some health issues which i think have been really focused on and have been made to seem like they are an absolute. yes in some cases weed can bring underlying mental illness to the surface, and you run the risk of cancer, which to my knowledge there isn't a single case documented. heroin itself does not cause disease but using needles does, and most users do end up on the needle.

hands down considering all the consequences that come from each drug, weed is better. it does not bring mind blowing euphoria but also doesn't ruin your entire life. to minimize all the negative thing that come along with heroin use, vein issues, infection, addiction, resorting to serious crime to fuel addiction, there is no way in a long term sense heroin is better than weed or anything else.
  #25  
Old 19-12-2011, 00:42
HitManHSam HitManHSam is offline
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Re: Heroin vs Cannabis: Which is Better!?

Alright, look maybe I was a little scraping the surface with my points but first of all.. there is pharmacuetical heroin called diamorphine look it up. Yes heroin kills people but these people are clearly ill-informed about what they are getting or they do too much. And for the record, I am from the east coast, the dope over there will definitely blow you back.


No, I do no believe that heroin creates a false reality, I believe it enhances it. For my dog, Heroin always made him want to go do shit, to try new things, it enchanced experiences that normally would not be more than a simple action to him. It never brought him into some retarded trance that one gets from cannabis. He was still able to function socially, and have clear connected thoughts, and no paranoia or anxiety. Cannabis does the exact opposite.


Heroin is no less dangerous to the body than a toke of cannabis. When comparing ONE DOSE. So, in this sense, if proper dosing was used amongst users you would decrease the risk of OD substantially. If people put limits on their use you wouldn't have all the bad stigma and treatment centers and diseases that we have today. It all up to the people that use, unfortuantely they give the rest of us bad names.

Uh yea fuck weed, I like the quote at the bottom, I honestly think weed is for stupid people, because marijuana should make you scared it should make you insecure because weed makes you look at yourself in all entirety against the rest of the world. I can agree with swim on this point.

Opium back in the ancient times was used to cure almost all aliments amongst everyone including children. It is used on the battlefield as a little morphine packet. Half of the GI's in vietnam used it, and shit who could blame them. Our country has been involved with opium since it's discovery. Medical evidence for cannabis = bullshit. It is really just a way for a bunch of lowsy potheads to get the shit legal.

Opium, is will always be the number one pain reliever, not just heroin, but heroin would easily be the most powerful one that COULD be safely used. Don't really know much about fentynal, but it's probably along the same lines. Basically my point is

Take all the weed, and burn it, burn it all and line potheads up and shoot them down for giving a bunch of false garbage about it without even SIGNIFICANT SCIENTIFIC evidence for why it is good.

They just say crap like.. it doesn't harm you or create addiction.. WRONG!

HitManHSam added 10 Minutes and 56 Seconds later...

you know why they created heroin in the first place right?


They were looking for a less addictive substitute for morphine. And all tho they were wrong, the point is, heroin was supposed to be the ultimate pharmacuetical drug that would be the universal pain reliever/suppressor...
To bad.

Post Quality Evaluations:
your attitude towards cannabis users throughout this thread - and particularly in this post - is unacceptable. discuss ideas, not people.

Last edited by HitManHSam; 19-12-2011 at 00:42. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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