Drug info - 1-Test vs Test - Testosterone Comparison & Discussion

[JewishNazi]

Gday guys.

Is anyone able to supply numbers for 1-test's anaboli to androgenic ratio? Also, does anyone have experience with both straigth test and 1-Test. Im especially interested in injection as M1T is a totally different compound

[Amenselah]

as roid junky..go for the Test..if u like the rush and instant results get the Tes. suspension..

[JewishNazi]

I foudn the answer for my self. 1-Test is ~7.7x more anabolic and ~2.1x more androgenic, So in theory this means that half the dose of 1-Test (as compared to Test) /should/ yeild nearly 4x the muscle

Pitty practice isnt the same as theory

[merseyloyalist]

Originally Posted by amenselah

as roid junky..go for the Test..if u like the rush and instant results get the Tes. suspension..

Test suspension is a wickid fast acting form of gear to use it really gives swim the drive to workout.SWiM would have dismissed M1T earlier have never used it as was put off by earlier pro-hormones that sucked basically but have heard it kicks arse,I think you have the right idea looking for an injectable as I think the half life of the oral version is rather short to say the least.

[Amenselah]

never in real life my friend...for mass is nothing better than the old combo of Dianabol and Test...
front loading the test of course...

[pumped3.16]

Originally Posted by amenselah

never in real life my friend...for mass is nothing better than the old combo of Dianabol and Test...
front loading the test of course...

no need for frontloading while taking an oral

[Amenselah]

true...but I'm a total andro-freak :>)...just love that feeling.

Originally Posted by pumped3.16

no need for frontloading while taking an oral

[nostawk]

swim took both in the same cycle. 1-test was a little too androgenic for swims taste. It may be legal in Australia I dunno. but if swim did it over again he'd go with more test and an aromatase inhibitor to keep the bloat down.

[Richard_smoker]

Just to add my 2 cents--everything you've read about 1-test is 99% total bullshit. It was sold as a legal supplement up until a year ago. It didn't do shit then, and just because it's illegal now doesn't mean that it will do anything now. It was made "blanket" illegal when the law was passed to crush all androstenedione/trione relatives. Yes, theoretically these compounds could exert inhibitory and excitatory effects upon the PRE-cursors for testosterone and estrogen. But please don't buy into the bullshit. the only ones of those compounds that so much as did anything at all (water bloating, shrink your testicles, make you impotent), the side-effects FAR outweighed the benefits. These were no different than research chemicals. None of them had ever been tested on anyone. That's why they were banned.

If you're going to take the risk of getting an abcess from injecting, or liver-failure from taking orals, then at least take the drugs that are approved for human consumption. 1-Test belongs in the trash. along with M1T.

[JewishNazi]

M1T and 1-test are metabolites of methandrostenolone and boldenone respectively.

if you have some proof that disqualifys what others places say about M1T and 1-test then please go ahead and post it

[Richard_smoker]

ok. if they are metabolites of methandrostenolone and boldenone, then what's the point? Are you saying that they are metabolized in the direction that your body would normally metabolize methandrostenolone and boldenone to make those drugs more powerful than they already were???

Most of the time, metabolites de-activate the compounds in question. If anything, you want something whose metabolites will be methandrostenolone and boldenone. An example of this would be the popular muscle relaxant Soma. Its metabolite is a highly addictive, highly sought-out tranquilizer drug called meprobamate or Miltown. Try finding Miltown these days... used to be nearly everyone's favorite, but it has been extensively cracked-down. So, enter Soma. Soma breaks down into Miltown... it's not miltown now--only when you take it and your liver creates miltown out of it.

Although there are a very few drugs whose metabolites are actually more active than the original drug, most metabolites are either extremely weak or they are absolutely useless. After all, that's the function of the liver in the first place.

I'm sorry. I'm not going to even look for research on these compounds specifically because I know that there's nothing in any scientific journals detailing 1-test or M1T in this manner. There just wasn't enough time between unveiling the legal supplements and actually testing them.

Sure, there are all kinds of theoretical assumptions that can be made by real scientists (now very rich scientists) that will assert certain adrogenic/anabolic ratios and effects. This doesn't mean that they are correct in vivo.

I'm certainly not trying to argue you. I've seen some people gain a whole lot of weight with M1T who kept working out the exact same (if not harder) following their cycle, who performed proper PCT, and they still ended up scrawnier and weaker than ever before. Only now, they have possible liver and kidney damage.

I won't deny the very distinct possibility (and I think there actually is a study on this) that OH-test was a pretty effective androgen & anti-estrogen.

But you must admit that if you had the product and marketing capacity, it would be awfully tempting to market the living SHIT out of these compounds while they were still legal. I mean, who wouldn't?? But all the outrageous claims that they were actually on-par with or even better (in the hormonal sense) than actual steroids are ludicrous at best.

Like I said, there are exceptions to this. Superdrol may have been one of these exceptions, but I don't know if any of us will ever know. I remember there was one so-called prohormone that had been originally marketed by an italian pharmaceutical company as a true steroid, but eventually lost favor because it required such a high amount of drug for minimal gains. If I remember correctly, this was OH-T or OH-nor-testosterone. But notice these are actually steroid compounds. OH-testosterone and OH-nortestosterone are very different from 1-test. 1-test was just a name given by the inventor to make money. What the hell does 1-testosterone even mean??? see what I'm saying? at least by adding a hydroxy group to a testosterone molecule, you are using the tried-and-true testosterone molecule and adding an OH to change its effects (blocking estrogen effects with some masculinizing effects as well). Same with OH-nortestosterone aka Deca-OH.

I might be wrong about my statements concerning 1test and M1t, but I've never ever seen proof that they are worth purchasing while illegal.

You know that the 'best' steroid known to man (according to the medical literature) is oxandrolone?!? Anyone who knows about steroids will tell you that this drug is probably the shittiest one out there. All it does is make you hungry and get fat. In fact, that's what it is used for in medical practice--to make wasting patients get hungry and FAT! With almost no androgenic effects, its anabolic effect is the only noticeable aspect (even thought this effect sucks as well). So basically, when you take its anabolic effect--we'll say it's a 2 out of 10, and divide that by its androgenic effects--we'll say it's zero out of 10, when you're trying to sell the drug, you talk in terms of "anabolic-to-androgenic ratio's."

In this case, the ratio is astronomical. Even though I've exaggerated the numbers, it's to prove a point. Divide the two numbers and you get 2/0. Well, anything divided by zero is infinity, right? So if I wanted to sell you anadrol, I would say, "Anadrol is the best steroid ever! it will pack on muscle mass like no other drug that has ever been invented in history! in fact, it's anabolic:androgenic ratio is 1,000 to 1!! Compare that to testosterone which is a measly 1 to 1!! Think about it... you could be getting 1,000 times more muscle by switching to oxandrolone and leaving testosterone alone!" and just for the record, oxandrolone is supposed to be dosed at 5mg one or 2 times/day. Even bodybuilders who try and use it to get anything out of it take 30-50mgs a day, right?

OK. I know i've been harsh and am possibly downright wrong about some of this stuff. I know that the latest-comers to the market (pre-ban) were actually getting better and better at what they were supposed to do. From what I understand M5-AA was a potent pre-workout booster. There were others that I can't remember that really showed great gains in oral formulations. But I would be extremely surprised if M1T (or especially 1-t) are around much longer at all. Companies and renegade research-chemical companies had to do something with their left-over inventories of pro-hormones after the ban. So, it follows that these enormous quantities of suddenly-illegal drugs were pushed onto the black market.

I would check out the later generation of orals (sorry m-5aa is the only one I can remember) if you're going to mess with any of those drugs. Also, OH-T was a real steroid that someone had already made with appropriate testing. If you want to increase your own body's supply of testosterone, then 4-AD or preferrably 17aa-4-AD will definitely increase testosterone levels. But I was under the impression that you could exogenously administer testosterone to yourself. Why kill your liver twice by taking something your liver will have to convert into testosterone, and then your liver will then have to convert OUT of testosterone!? It's a double-hit to the liver.

Please don't take any of this personally. I know it's hard not to. Plus, I admit that I'm not perfect and I could actually be wrong about LOTS of things. My biggest fear is not that you will prove me wrong--it's that you and others will buy into the hype and end up taking a practice that is already dangerous enough (steroids), and doubling or even tripling the risks to your body. You only get one liver, 2 kidneys, and 1 heart. If you're going to juice, then do it in the cleanest, least damaging manner. I doubt that you'll find very many concerned physicians or trainers who will honestly support these very new, extremely toxic crapshoot drugs over something 100% natural and proven like testosterone. After all, 100 million years of human evolution can't be wrong! I say stick with the testosterone. and I apologize for 1--being so damn wordy, and 2--stirring up shit. This was never my intention. Education about best health practices and preventing the money-grubbing bullshitters who don't give a fuck about your health from winning were my intentions. If I upset anyone, I am sorry. Also, if I was harsh or wrong, I am sorry as well. I don't even do the shit. I just happen to know a lot about endocrinology and even more about money-grubbing assholes, and I'd hate to see you fall into their trap(s).
-Dick

[JewishNazi]

These metabolites are the 5a-reduced forms of boldenone and methandrostenolone. In the case of testosterone -> DHT, this gives DHT ~7x greater affinity for the androgen receptor and signifigantly more anabolic. The problem with DHT is that it is too easily de-activated in muscle tissue

OHT/MOHT along with their nandrolone counterparts were apparently pretty good. The nandrolones ere fairly weak ad could only really be used for cutting to prevent muscle loss.

You are right that OHT was marketed. It was marketed with a cyclopentene ether and was called quinbolone. It was meant to be taken orally (absorbed via the lymphatic system rather than going through the liver) but fialed misserably. Taking away the ester makes it a diferent compound, so it was legal to sell. Really, it was just like clostebol

I hope you realise that 4-AD was a substrate for testosterone, and M4-AD was for methyltest

Yes, I know oxandrolone is used in the medical community, but not to increase hunger. It is used for its extremely favourable anabolic:androgenic ratio in AIDS patients who are wasting. it is also used in children to increase skeletal height, and in the elderly as a treatment for oeseoperosis (sp?, the one where your bones become thinner). SWIM is using oxandrolone at 50mg ED and is noticing amazing strength gains with minimal mass. The mass he has put on is from madol.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great conversation! You really know your shit. I appreciate the info exchange. It amazes me because I know about thes...

[Richard_smoker]

OK. this is a lot to respond to. I'll get back to you with more when I have some extra time (maybe tonight).

Thanks for the reply. Very informed, I see... I'm impressed.

There are a few things that I might argue with--or just seek clarification for one of us, not quite sure which one although it seems like we might be batting for the same team here.

The only thing I had time to address was the statement:

I hope you realise that 4-AD was a substrate for testosterone, and M4-AD was for methyltest

Yes, I realized that 4-AD increased testosterone levels because it served as a substrate. When you say M4-AD, I assume that you're referring to the 17-alpha-alkylated version of 4-AD. (this one came out kinda late in the ballgame--maybe 12-18 months before the ban?) If my memory serves me right, it would have been referred to as Methyl-4-AD or 17aa-4-AD. They're the same thing (methyl and 17aa). Now as far as I know (and I've never heard or read any differently), the 17aa version of different hormones is what allows them to be taken orally. The liver has trouble breaking down the hormone in first-pass metabolism, beause it's having enough trouble with the 17aa (methyl at 17 position). This is why effective orals are hepatotoxic. Check out the formula for your oxandrolone and you'll see that it's 17aa as well. This is also why you can take methyl-testosterone orally.

I'm sure you know this, but this is what someone realized about the compound called "1-test." If they could put a 17aa methyl group on their invention, then it would bypass 1st pass metabolism by the liver. and this worked--compared to oral 1-test.

BTW, these 17aa (methyls) are liver toxic, but so are birth control pills and you don't see women dropping dead from liver failure or not drinking because they're on oral 17-aa hormones. So, I don't know how much of a concern this really is.

The problem that I had with your post is that you said M-4AD converted into methyl-testosterone. From what I understood, the methyl just protected the 4AD from being prematurely digested by the liver in 1st pass metabolism. This made M-4AD a much more effective elevator of "natural" testosterone levels when taken orally. If you recall, there were several injectable and transdermal preparations of 4AD. This was because orally, 4AD sucked. With the methyl, 4AD became powerful.

I'll get back w/you more about DHT, oxandrolone, etc. There's more I wanted to talk about. This is interesting talk. thanks for sharing info w/me. -Dick

[s_1]

superdrol is v harsh in terms of sides imo compared to say tbol, winny etc.

[JewishNazi]

Dick,

Yes, I certainly did mean Methyl-4-AD

In the body, testosterone runs with one of two crowds, either 17b-ol (the ative form), or 17a-ol (the inactive form, think of epitestosterone). Granted there is also bound and unboun, but im not getting into that. The alkyl groups (most oftenly methyl groups) prevent the hydroxyl group from witching from beta- to alpha-, as more often than not, this is what happen in the liver to deactivate non-alkylated steroids. It also stops the hydroxyl group from being oxidized into a ketone. This answers any questions about why it was orally active. Also, I should add that the only manner in which thishormone could further chance was with the 3-HSD enzyme to make it methyltestosterone, reduction to 17a-methyl-DHT or aromatization into 17a-methylestradiol (an etremely potent estrogen)

Im sorry if I have left something unanswered, im short for time. Il answer everything else that you need (or as much asI can) next time im on

[Richard_smoker]

Interesting. Thanks.

You know, I was just thinking about your reply--and suddenly it hit me just how complex this topic really is. I wasn't even thinking about M4AD being broken down that far. Also, it has never occured to me that there was a rhyme/reason to the naming of some of these marketed drugs--i.e. "d-bol" as is obvious from your information about 17b-ol vs 17 a-ol. I've never even heard about the alpha and beta forms being active/inactive, nor the bit about 17-alkyls preventing the switch to alpha-, or protecting the -OH group.

Seriously, if you look back, our posts all say something like "this is all I have time to say for now."

lol, I just realized that we could write an entire book about this topic. I apologize if I seemed harsh earlier about my recommendation to avoid 1-test at all costs. It is quite apparent that you know your molecules and you certainly don't need my advice to carry on with your experiment. I am humbled and stupified at my obvious lack of understanding and knowledge of these hormones and their roles.

There is one thing that I've never understood about the compound labeled "1-test." I've read many different things about this molecule, and I guess that when it comes down to it, I just didn't know who to believe. I was under the impression that someone (the inventor) just made-up this name in order to sell it to the legal steroid enthusiast. Is this true? or does it actually have some type of connection to real testosterone??

Think about it. "1-Testosterone"?? what is the "1" signifying? it certainly isn't 1-OH-Testosterone as this is clearly marketed as "1-hydroxy-testosterone." So, what is 1-test, and what does it break down to?

Please do not feel compelled to answer these questions. I truly do not need the answers but I am so DAMN CURIOUS! Seriously! This totally boggles my mind that companies will compete with each other in such a scientific-sounding language, that they actually confuse the hell out of an educated consumer... to the point that someone like me doesn't know how to make heads or tails of any of it. thanks for being so informed & helpful and I apologize for being--well--a dick! -Dick

[JewishNazi]

To fully answer your short question of "what is 1-test", im going ot have to give a long answer that is broken down into several parts so here goes:

You know the testosterone molecule right? The basic steroid skeleton with a 3-oxo, 17b-ol and 4-ene. See the first pic if your not 100%

If you reduce the double bond at C4 on testosterone, you get DHT, a hormone that binds almost 7x more strongly to the androgen receptor and is responsible for most androgenic side effects. Because of the lack of the 4-ene, the 3-oxo can now be readily reduced to a 3-ol, thus deactivating the molecule. DHTs - while extremly anabolic - are shit for building muscle because of this but are awsome for strength and giving a hard, dry look (see the second pic for its structure)

If you add a 1,2-double bond (lots of companys call it 'unsaturation', which while correct, is used solely to confuse the average consumer) you get the hormone 1-testosterone. Adding this double bond - as judged by the standard levitar ani VS seminal vessel test - affords a hormone with the same anabolism but only half the androgenicity (see the third pic for its structure). By this time you have a hormone that is 1.1 - 2.2x as androgenic as testosterone, and up 7.7x as anabolic.

If you know much about AAS, you can see that this is actually the 5a-reduced form of boldenone, so calling it DHB (dihydroboldenone) would have been fine, but it was simpler to call it 1-testosterone and just say that the double bond had been moved from C4 to C1


I must ad while im thinking of it that your comment about dbol is incorrect. The only reason it is called dbol is because it is short for the name it was originally marketed under by Ciba Pharmeceuticals back in the late '50's (that would ofcourse be dianabol). This would be a great time to point out the difference that 17a-alkylation can have. Dianabol is 17a-methylboldenone. While boldenone's gains are lean, progressive and somewhat unimpressive (atleast to the competative bodybuilder, which I am not), dianabol' are rapid, and generally come with quite alot of water. The 17a-methyl group on 1-test to make M1T is also what causes the lethargy.

Steroid chemistry is extremely complex. I only know hte tip of hte iceburge. Currently, I am trying to find infomation on bolasterone. Apparently a steroid with explosive mass and strength gains like those of methandrostenolone (dbol), but without the water. And no, im not thinking of turinabol

Well, anyway, til next time
JN

[Richard_smoker]

WOW, Nazi! Once again, I must confess that you have succeeded in taking the cake. You've spun out the icing... you've even licked the plate.

If you only knew how much I have listened to lectures, read articles, even read books, and for various reasons, none of this subject has ever quite 'clicked' for me. oh, and of course I've done a lot of reading WEBSITES--btw, this is most likely why i didn't have a fucking clue, because anyone and their brothers can have a stupid-ass website full of misinformation...

But anyways, I think this is the most informative set of posts that I've ever read to merge the topics of natural hormones / cholesterol backbones with the various synthetic hormones, especially those that were legal about 14-15 months ago. That is to say, these posts were the best written for me as the reader anyways. Seriously, you've got to be one smart motherfucker and/or one hell of a guy to post all that info, JewNazi. And I appreciate it. It's not very frequently that someone will understand both the endocrinology and all that biochem/organic. At least, I've never met anyone who could rattle it off like you do!

But anyhoo, back to the topic. As you said, the saturation term is kinda confusing.

In regard to moving the double bond from 4-->1, hence the name "1-test"... all I can say here is that I am a fucking idiot. Jeezus. I really have been doing too much "research" on the fucking internet (not here!). This makes perfect sense. Pretty sure I got this bit of misunderstanding from a discussion forum.

The pics are great also. Thanks for posting them.

I'm with you on the effects of different named synthetics. However, I had no idea how simple the naming strategy was for straight-forward names and I have never been able to correlate synthetic hormones with the natural T and DHT.

As far as "androstene-" derivatives, I'm assuming that it is possible to name just about any of these compounds using the androstene-blahblahblah nomenclature. Is this correct? If so, then that would explain why all those formerly legal "pro-hormones" were allowed to slip under the radar as I think most were named according to the androstene naming strategy.

I guess I'll have to go do an image search for androstene-diol, -triol, etc. and compare with your pics of testosterone, etc.

BTW, I was being dead serious about having been bombarded with lectures and information about sex hormones, adrenal hormones (DHEA, androstene-etc.), aromatase, 5-a-reductase, 17-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, etc. Now I realize that there were biases built into my understandings of each different artificial hormone and the so-called 'pro-hormones.' Money, business, corruption, etc. all played a part in warping my understanding of each drug--kinda like how pharm companies try to fuck you into thinking that their SUPER expensive drug is best when it's really only marginally better, if any, than drug x.

At any rate, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. This information really goes far with me. As I said, I thought I understood this shit. Now I realize that not only did I NOT know it, but I need to look over all these compounds again just to finish clearing out the brainwashing in my head.

Just out of curiosity, anyone ever read either of these 2 books?

Chemical Muscle Enhancement: bodybuilder's desk reference. by Author L. Rea

Built to Survive: a comprehensive guide to the medical use of anabolic therapies, nutrition and exercise for HIV+ men and women. by michael mooney and nelson vergel

I know that just about every website quotes straight out of the CME book, but I really don't think it's that great of a book. It seems to be like a recipe book for people who medicate themselves with roid cycles--so, I guess if that's what it's intended for, then it must be accomplishing its purpose... but I also happen to know there are tons of clinics in the US where M.D.s practice 'sports medicine' or androgenic therapies and they actually base their medical practice on the statements and strategies of this book... I guess the book is ok, but I wasn't very impressed at how the author dumbed everything down so much.

Oxandrolone is an example of a drug that he talks about in a very non-chalant way which contradicts almost all literature (as well as contradicting himself in other chapters). For example, he says "oxandrolone does not supress any part of the HYPOTHALAMUS-PITUITARY-TESTES AXIS (HPTA)"--that's a big statement. Also, he states that oxandrolone works by increasing phosphocreatine in the cell, which then increases ATP--aren't there tons of others ways you can do this without having to pay for anavar??? and also, he gives the standard dosage as being 20-50mg/day--only 10-20 TIMES the recommended dose per manufacturer, and I already realize that one must take this much for steroid purposes, but he never really tells you the truth about how the drug is used in medicine at 2.5 and 5mg/day.

in regard to the HIV+ book, I don't have much to say. I'm really not sure who the intended audience is, other than gay men (HIV+ or - actually). It's certainly not written for medical professionals--unless they are extremely stupid medical professionals.

thanks. I've succeeded in typing myself into a coma.

[JewishNazi]

I haven't read CME, I find that some of his cycles are.... silly.

I also havnet read the second book. Actually, all of my knowledge came from bodybuilding.com and steroids.com with bits and pieces commingfrom random websites via google. The same thing goes for my knowledge of chemistry.

The difference between myself and most people who read those sites is that i go 'balls ot the wall' and try to learn everything. I wil re-read articles over and over until i know them backwards and then try and find more.

And the funniest part I will tell you via PM

[Grifin]

I read some articles here, wery impresing, wery!!!!!!!I am realy impresed about this forum.

I hawe the few qustion about methandrostenolone.What are true side efects of this drug?WHat was primary goal of this drug?I heard that this drug were maden for people with cancer, to giwe them last power, apetite, to restor cells...

Hmm in this articles and in others are wroten that daily those shouldn't be over 5-10mg.When we bought(me and my friend) this drug both frome other peoples, there were wroten in the note:


Take this pils in order:
morning, over the day, night
1 week 1, 2 1

2 week 2, 2 1

3 week 2, 2 2

4 week 2, 2 2

5 week 2, 2 1

6 week 1, 2 1

ps- no mather were you buy this drug there is ialways same prescription about taking it.


1 tablet is 5mg if I am right, than im am consuming 25mg/day.I am in 2 week since now there is no side efects.

The primary reason of taking this drug was hard weight gainig.I know lot of things about fitnes, in theory, but practicing is my night mare When I gained 5kg(11pound), this was not a muscle but a fat...

[stoneinfocus]

Anabolic Androgen steroids increase mucsle tissue built-up by increasing the bodys ability to absorb N, measured in Leucine-uptake as a marker (amino-aci).
AAS stimulate overall proteinsynthesis, maturing of bloodcells, and influence the thymic parameters as well (which are best balanced out by aerobics not weightlifting btw. .. so doinfg cardio will keep your white bloddcells from migrating out of the bloodstram to rest in the thyme).

If you donßt exercise most of the dbol will fill up your muscle with a srtange kind of liquid matrix, but will be transformed to very aggressice 17-methylestradiol, which in turn may lead to water retention and may favor fattty tissue to grow in a female-like pattern. also a gynaecomastia can develop (this is because estradiol breaks down fatty tissue and if those free fattty acids are not burndeed in exercise they willl form fat tissue under influence of too much esrtadiol in a female pattern... exercise is the key for a man to stay manly, even with excess estradiol.(or anti-estrogens another chapter)

the dose you were taking was not a small one but maybe you should try it with discipline and strenous workout before you´re taking pills; Exercise will make you hungry! -if not youßre not really exercising or you´re exercising way too hard and too long and I don´t think the latter applies to most of the people.

[stoneinfocus]

it was also testeds for I thinkl 5 ywears in treatin gsickle cell anaemia in chinese patience resistant to any other therapy, so in this deadly situation they were given huge amounts of dianabol, for stimulating the bone marrow to produce more erythrocytes, the dose must have been up to 150mg/day, proposedly, mabye as little as a third maybe even more than this...
only in a little less than 20% were seen jaundice and hepatic tumors and all occured during the first 3 moths or so and to none who had never problems with liver-vaöues ertc. ,when dismissing dbol a few weeks/months and starting again only 15 % developed hepatic problems again.

[Grifin]

Thank you for your answer, I hawe 3x on week cardio trening 4 days fitnes, i dont hawe no free day...so there is no waring for excercising...what do u mena with dbl... If you donßt exercise most of the dbol will fill up your muscle with a srtange kind of liquid matrix, but will be transformed to very aggressice 17-methylestradiol...


So if I got right you the side efects are with liver...what about hair droping?
And how do they making naposim whit what, where do they get sources?