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  #1  
Old 03-12-2010, 00:08
squeezix squeezix is offline
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More on 4-AcO-DMT

AFOAF has 4-aco-dmt freebase. He wants to know what the dosage on this would be as compared to the hcl. He is pasting some info from an earlier post so he has an idea. Now if he has found 26mg from hcl to be his sweet spot, how would he deduce dosage from this tidbit:

Quote:
(credit to "coolio" for this tidbit SWIM has saved)
Quote:

4-AcO-DMT freebase has a molar mass of 246.

Fumaric acid has a molar mass of 116.

Hydrochloric acid has a molar mass of 36.46.

2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT HCl is therefore equivalent to 1703mg of 4-AcO-DMT freebase.
2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT fumarate is equivalent to 1057mg of 4-AcO-DMT freebase.
2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT fumarate is equivalent to 1241mg of 4-AcO-DMT HCl.

To calculate an equipotent dosage of the Hcl salt to those who are using the 4-AcO-DMT fumarate salt you would multiply their dose by 0.62.
And what is the difference chemically between these three? My friend doesn't understand how Coolio came up with these numbers.
  #2  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:20
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

It is true that the freebase is the most potent of the three by weight. I am not so sure about the numbers though. The fumarate should be most stable.


  #3  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:44
squeezix squeezix is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Okie, how unstable is the freebase? Will it keep for a couple of months in the freezer, amber jar, still in plastic, packed with silica-gel? AND is it a sticky oily freebase like DMT? Or is it powdery?
  #4  
Old 03-12-2010, 15:12
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeezix View Post
Okie, how unstable is the freebase? Will it keep for a couple of months in the freezer, amber jar, still in plastic, packed with silica-gel?
That's probably the best bet. If possible it'd probably be best to have several layers of plastic and glass as well as the silica to make sure none of the freezer humidity gets in. Nonetheless keep an eye out for signs of deterioration (e.g. bluing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeezix View Post
AND is it a sticky oily freebase like DMT? Or is it powdery?
If it's high purity it should be powdery. DMT only tends to be oily because it's generally a crude plant extract.
  #5  
Old 03-12-2010, 15:16
torachi torachi is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Is it true that the freebase degrades into psilocin, and then degrades to inactivity?

What are the chances of the freebase material degrading into an illegal substance during transport?

Last edited by torachi; 03-12-2010 at 18:27.
  #6  
Old 03-12-2010, 18:52
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Yes it is true. The chances of 4-ACO-DMT degrading to a controlled substance during transport are very high. This is because if the sample tests positive for any amount of psilocin it all, legally speaking, becomes psilocin of X% purity.




Post Quality Evaluations:
Quick answer about something that might have serious repercussions.
  #7  
Old 03-12-2010, 22:38
squeezix squeezix is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

How long does degradation take? I mean it is winter time, but my buddy lives in the tropics and this stuff gets shipped 5000 miles snail mail.

P.S. This stuff was synthesized in the past few weeks.

Last edited by squeezix; 03-12-2010 at 22:39. Reason: PS
  #8  
Old 04-12-2010, 07:49
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

It is likely that any sample of 4-ACO-DMT that goes through shipping is going to contain some amount of psilocin in it. Under perfect storage conditions it may not even degrade at all. But nothing is perfect. It's not the worst impurity to have. It would be totally fine if not for the legal implications. The chemical psilocin is banned in many countries.


  #9  
Old 04-12-2010, 15:05
Felix Machina Felix Machina is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Is the fumerate salt much more stable then I take it and needn't be stored under freezing conditions?
  #10  
Old 04-12-2010, 16:47
torachi torachi is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

So are the chances just as good to have psilocin of X% purity when transporting the 4-aco-dmt salt?
  #11  
Old 05-12-2010, 12:17
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Your sample would simply be impurified with psilocin. In this case because of the chemical mixture containing some percentage of psilocin you can be prosecuted as though it were all psilocin.


  #12  
Old 05-12-2010, 17:35
squeezix squeezix is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Does this affect potency? Just in doing the math, it seems I would have a better deal on a gram of freebase as opposed to a gram of fumarate.
  #13  
Old 06-12-2010, 10:10
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

4-HO-DMT(psilocin) and 4-ACO-DMT are roughly equipotent so it would not effect potency so much. The freebase is better if you like lower doses and therefore more mileage.

  #14  
Old 07-12-2010, 01:15
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Bunk numbers in above calculations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeezix's quote View Post
4-AcO-DMT freebase has a molar mass of 246.

Fumaric acid has a molar mass of 116.

Hydrochloric acid has a molar mass of 36.46.

2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT HCl is therefore equivalent to 1703mg of 4-AcO-DMT freebase.
2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT fumarate is equivalent to 1057mg of 4-AcO-DMT freebase.
2000mg of 4-AcO-DMT fumarate is equivalent to 1241mg of 4-AcO-DMT HCl.
I believe that this may be incorrect... Potentially leading to OVERestimation of the quantitiy of fumarate required to produce an amount equal to some target amount of freebase.

Whereas the hydrochloric salt consists of equal parts 4-AcODMT and hydrochloric, the fumarate salt instead consists of 2 4-AcODMTs for every 1 fumarate. This is because fumarate is a divalent anion and carries two negative charges. Thus one fumarate can neutralize two 4-AcODMTs each carrying one positive charge.

Here is an accurate depiction of the conversions:

4-AcODMT: mw = 246
Hydrochloric acid: mw = 36
Fumaric acid: 116

1) Hydrochloric salt:

The formula
1 X (4AcODMT) + 1 X (HCl) = Chloride salt

The masses
246 + 36 = 282

The percentages
87.2% + 12.7% = 100%

2) Fumaric salt:

The formula
2 X (4AcODMT) + 1 X (Fumaric acid) = Fumarate salt

The masses
492 + 116 = 608

The percentages
80.9% + 19.1% = 100%


So, for 1000 mg of solid powder that someone receives, if they have the HCl salt, they will be getting 872 mg of 4-AcODMT freebase. If they receive the fumarate salt they will be getting 809 mg of freebase.

Thus, the "freebase-equivalents" of the chloride salt is equal to 1.15 (consume 1.15 mg of chloride salt for every 1 mg of freebase you want to dose).

The "freebase-equivalents" of the fumarate salt is equal to 1.24 (consume 1.24 mg of chloride salt for every 1 mg of freebase you want to dose).

I hope this helps accurate dosing!

If anyone used the bunk numbers from the above quote for the fumarate salt, they would be getting 60% MORE 4-AcODMT than they intended.

There is actually 1618 mg of 4-AcODMT in each 2000 mg of fumarate salt... NOT 1057 mg 4-AcODMT like that quote said. Shudder... That could be quite disastrous to say the least!


BTW... swims labradoodle just contacted their supplier of the fumarate salt and they confirmed that ~80% by weight is 4-AcODMT, as I indicated above in my calculations.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Thanks for clearing up the stoichiometry of fumarate salts

Last edited by Terrapinzflyer; 07-12-2010 at 17:39. Reason: si
  #15  
Old 12-12-2010, 03:12
nibble nibble is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

^ Exactly, fumaric acid is trans-butenedioic acid, a dicarboxylic acid (i.e. it contains two carboxylic acid groups). Essentially meaning it's two acids in one moleule, if you want to put it like that..
  #16  
Old 12-12-2010, 12:33
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Quote:
Originally Posted by nibble View Post
^ Exactly, fumaric acid is trans-butenedioic acid, a dicarboxylic acid (i.e. it contains two carboxylic acid groups). Essentially meaning it's two acids in one moleule, if you want to put it like that..
A guy at the bus stop, name of Birkenstock, told me he is working up a way to get his trypatmine RCs into a citrate salt form. Citrate is a tri-carboxylic acid that is prominent in our metabolic "TCA" cycle, and which he thinks might provide a nice counter-ion to (for example ) 4-OAc-DMT.

So, in that case, the citrate will neutralize 3 4-OAc-DMTs and the ratio of tryptamine to acid molecules will be 3:1 instead of 2:1 for fumarate or 1:1 for hydrochloric.

Birkenstock is interested as to whether insufflation of the citrate salts is less horrible than the other salts.

I told Birkenstock that sounds pretty cool, and to update me when he is finished...
  #17  
Old 16-01-2011, 23:09
gargravarr gargravarr is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

Swim had a dream he obtained a quantity of 4-aco-DMT freebase and proceeded to dilute it in distilled water for measuring purposes as he usually does his phenethylamines. A little bit of the powder didn't end up dissolving, but something else odd happened. The water turned a dark murky color, almost black. What is the cause of this?? Is it still safe to dose? Swim attached a picture of what it looked like in the dream...
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File Type: jpg 4acodmtttt.jpg (31.3 KB, 28 views)
  #18  
Old 16-01-2011, 23:42
Phenoxide Phenoxide is nu online
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

How long has the compound been in solution? 4-AcO-DMT is reported to be unstable in aqueous solution. This dark coloration is generally not seen with pure 4-AcO-DMT and is believed to be an indication of degradation to psilocin and other breakdown products. Psilocin itself is notoriously unstable, so this coloration may be an indication that the tryptamines in solution are rapidly degrading.

More information on this specific phenomenom can be found here: 4-AcO-DMT (4-acetoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, psilacetin) Drug Info
  #19  
Old 17-01-2011, 00:21
gargravarr gargravarr is offline
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Re: More on 4-Aco-DMT

That makes sense. It didn't take but an hour for the water to darken. It has been only a day since. Swim reports it is still active however.

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