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Benzodiazepines All about benzodiazepines (downers)

 
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  #1  
Old 28-10-2010, 06:00
Jit Jit is offline
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alprazolam stopped working?

SWIM is prescribed 90mg of xanax(generic for what it's worth).
He does 'abuse' it in different ways but keeps a supply for it's prescribed use, anxiety and insomnia, both fairly crippling.

As of late SWIM is getting next to no effect, particularly for the treatment of the insomnia. He's sure it's not a tolerance problem.

SWIM took 3mg last night to get to sleep over about 45 minutes, hours later he was still awake. That is his usual "just can't fucking sleep dose" so it typically knocks him out quick.

There was a time 1.5mg could cause blackouts, now SWIM has literally taken 9-12mg and, granted had no anxiety, still was totally lucid and awake.

SWIMs doc changed him to kpin from xans for a short period of time with the reason being 'xans are too addictive and kpins help more for sleep/longer lasting'.
However the kpins, though again killing the anxiety, were NO help getting to sleep. So he was switched back.
Now that these aren't working from him either, what the fuck can SWIM do?

What could SWIM suggest to his doc for sleep? They hesitate with ambian because they say SWIM shouldn't take it daily.

SWIMS doc is kinda clueless on the whole subject(free clinics!) and tends to take SWIMS suggestions.



Summary: Why would the effects of xanax almost stop working(tolerance not being the case)?
  #2  
Old 28-10-2010, 06:44
Ilsa Ilsa is nu online
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

^^^assuming that's 90 a month, yes?

clonazepam has a significantly better half-life, lower abuse potential and is MUCH easier (and safer) to taper off of than alprazolam... a friend who has been prescribed both has found that tolerance to the latter, in her experience, seems to build much more quickly than to the former.

at any rate, it sounds as if the dose has been taken far too high... 12 mgs seems a bit high (though with a tolerance isn't a terribly high dosage, but still higher than common therapeutic doses, and the only way she could think of to decrease tolerance is to lower teh dose. stopping altogether and all at once is dangerous due to seizure risks, so a taper would be in order....

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Last edited by Ilsa; 28-10-2010 at 06:50. Reason: comprehension as well as motor issues
  #3  
Old 28-10-2010, 07:13
Jit Jit is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

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Originally Posted by Ilsa View Post
^^^assuming that's 90 a month, yes?

clonazepam has a significantly better half-life, lower abuse potential and is MUCH easier (and safer) to taper off of than alprazolam... a friend who has been prescribed both has found that tolerance to the latter, in her experience, seems to build much more quickly than to the former.

at any rate, it sounds as if the dose has been taken far too high... 12 mgs seems a bit high (though with a tolerance isn't a terribly high dosage, but still higher than common therapeutic doses, and the only way she could think of to decrease tolerance is to lower teh dose. stopping altogether and all at once is dangerous due to seizure risks, so a taper would be in order....
Yeah, it's 90 a month.

And no way does the doc prescribe 12mg, SWIMs script is for 3/day.
Like I said, SWIM abuses them here and there.

Clonazepam is great for anxiety, but did nothing for sleep, otherwise SWIM would be on that instead.
  #4  
Old 28-10-2010, 07:36
Ilsa Ilsa is nu online
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

^^ indeed, it's abuse potential is generally on the lower end in terms of benzo's.... clonazepam doesn't seem to have the same goofy sort of high that one would get with a dose like that, nor does it have the tendency to put one on one's arse so quickly either, seriously though, if your friend isn't taking daily then stopping for awhile would be fine to decrease tolerance, perhaps with minimal dosing for sleep. it gets difficult to abuse benzo's in general once one has built a tolerance to them.
  #5  
Old 28-10-2010, 09:35
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Well SWIMs doc is against long term use of any benzos for all the obvious reasons, but SWIM does need something.

In SWIY opinion would insomnia be a plausible medical reason for proscribing carisoprodol? That will usually do the trick, but he's apprehensive to tell his doc he wants it by name.
  #6  
Old 28-10-2010, 15:45
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

No, asking for soma for sleep won't go over well. If the xanax isn't doing it, I'd imagine he'd suggest you go to a specialist as most doctors (GPs) don't like to give their patients tons of addictive drugs then have to deal with all the patients addiction issues. I was on clonazepam for several years and it didn't help my insominia that much. Once every blue moon, my doc would give me five 30mg restoril (temazepam) but that was very rare and only when I really complained about it. I got them maybe twice a year. What he did give me, that actually worked quite well, was promethazine 25-50mg at night for sleep. It worked very well and doesn't build a tolerance (it does have some tolerance) but nothing like a benzo. So I'd try promethazine or hydroyxine (sp, Vistaril) because they can help a lot and aren't physically addictive. You're tolerance for benzos is way too high and adding more downers to the mix will only make it worse in the long run. Being dependant on a drug for your anxiety is bad but being dependant on one for sleep is just horrible. Once you finally do get off of it, you won't be able to sleep right for months even if you do a good taper. It's hell.

What I also want to recomend is exercise. I know it's getting cold and all but still. Join a gym if you don't want to go out in the cold. I suggest running or biking. I'm doing neither right now and my sleep is fucked but when I do exercise, I sleep a lot better. Not to mention my anxiety is a lot better. Don't kill yourself, but push yourself hard with the exercise. The idea is to kinda wear yourself out. That's why I did it in the evenings but any time will do. If you don't like running (I don't, it's very hard on my body) bike. Find a good bike you like and just ride. You won't even realize how hard you're working out after awhile. It just becomes natural. I'd ride 5ish miles a day and I'd peddal as hard and fast as I could and it was like nothing. You just gotta get used to it. Starting is the hardest part.

Good luck.

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well-written post with fantastic information; good advice as well
  #7  
Old 28-10-2010, 19:37
SlightlyBitter SlightlyBitter is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Swim could try a benzo combination. For example use clonazepam or valium in the morning for anxiety and alprazolam, lorazepam, or temazepam for insomnia and possible break through anxiety. SWIM has seen doctors prescribe combos like this. Benzo's all have different effects, they can't always be used interchangeably. Prescribing clonazepam for sleep seems silly with its incredibly long half life. While prescribing alprazolam all day long for general anxiety is also silly.

Though benzo's work primarily all on GABA-a receptors which is why they have similar effects, they dont all work on the same sub receptors. Depending which subreceptors they antagonize, the drugs effects are different. Some cause somnolence, some anxiolytic, some extremely amnesic, etc. This is why the benzo equivalency chart should never been taken as literal. They are approximations.

Last edited by Phenoxide; 08-09-2012 at 14:12. Reason: post restored
  #8  
Old 28-10-2010, 19:53
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingPictures View Post
No, asking for soma for sleep won't go over well. If the xanax isn't doing it, I'd imagine he'd suggest you go to a specialist as most doctors (GPs) don't like to give their patients tons of addictive drugs then have to deal with all the patients addiction issues. I was on clonazepam for several years and it didn't help my insominia that much. Once every blue moon, my doc would give me five 30mg restoril (temazepam) but that was very rare and only when I really complained about it. I got them maybe twice a year. What he did give me, that actually worked quite well, was promethazine 25-50mg at night for sleep. It worked very well and doesn't build a tolerance (it does have some tolerance) but nothing like a benzo. So I'd try promethazine or hydroyxine (sp, Vistaril) because they can help a lot and aren't physically addictive. You're tolerance for benzos is way too high and adding more downers to the mix will only make it worse in the long run. Being dependant on a drug for your anxiety is bad but being dependant on one for sleep is just horrible. Once you finally do get off of it, you won't be able to sleep right for months even if you do a good taper. It's hell.

What I also want to recomend is exercise. I know it's getting cold and all but still. Join a gym if you don't want to go out in the cold. I suggest running or biking. I'm doing neither right now and my sleep is fucked but when I do exercise, I sleep a lot better. Not to mention my anxiety is a lot better. Don't kill yourself, but push yourself hard with the exercise. The idea is to kinda wear yourself out. That's why I did it in the evenings but any time will do. If you don't like running (I don't, it's very hard on my body) bike. Find a good bike you like and just ride. You won't even realize how hard you're working out after awhile. It just becomes natural. I'd ride 5ish miles a day and I'd peddal as hard and fast as I could and it was like nothing. You just gotta get used to it. Starting is the hardest part.

Good luck.
The exercise idea is what SWIM gets everywhere he goes and appreciates the advice. However when the weather was right he worked as a construction worker/roofer(plenty of exercise, he promises) and the problem was not affected at all. He's also tried most of the remedies your mother would tell you, again, to no avail.

Also, he used promethazine here and there in the past with only slight improvement.

Thank SWIY for the addiction/tolerance concerns, but honestly(no denial here, SWIM swears) that's not the issue.

Jit added 5 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

^cont(can't edit)^Oh and as far as a specialist. He'd love to, but it's state government funded health services..Don't believe there's sleep specialists on the plan.
SWIMs getting insurance coming JAN 1 so maybe next year, right?...No probably not.

Jit added 9 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlightlyBitter View Post
Swim could try a benzo combination. For example use clonazepam or valium in the morning for anxiety and alprazolam, lorazepam, or temazepam for insomnia and possible break through anxiety. SWIM has seen doctors prescribe combos like this. Benzo's all have different effects, they can't always be used interchangeably. Prescribing clonazepam for sleep seems silly with its incredibly long half life. While prescribing alprazolam all day long for general anxiety is also silly.
This would be wonderful and SWIM will try to ask his doc if it's a possiblity for SWIM. He just doesn't(didn't?) know docs would consider scripting 2 benzos at once. SWIM agrees it's silly to have such a short acting benzo to cover the whole day, but it worked markedly better(better doesn't mean good) for sleep then the clonazepam they were trying with him.

He does always tell them the kpins worked great for the anxiety, just no effect for sleep. And xanax worked just as well for the anxiety and alittle with sleep, too, so they went with that one. Regardless of the short action of it.

Last edited by Jit; 28-10-2010 at 19:53. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #9  
Old 29-10-2010, 19:44
Ilsa Ilsa is nu online
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

if you friend's bunnies aren't using enough to be physically dependent (in which case cessation of use should ONLY be done under doctor supervision....end disclaimer), then they could try substituting with one of the aforementioned products, otc products like diphenhydramine/dimenhrydrinate, or even going a night with about 4 hours of sleep.

please have him reply with how the doctor goes and what his opinions are!
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Old 01-11-2010, 18:58
SlightlyBitter SlightlyBitter is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Usually one has to be on a certain long term before a doc scripts another one on top of it. And what you said is exactly swims point. Clonazepam is great for daytime anxiety because its mild and doesn't have that "punch" alprazolam has. While swim feels alprazolam still is not a good choice for sleep because its to fast and short acting. For this reason its great for break through panic disorder. Both clonazepam and alprazolam are recognized as anxiolytic drugs. SWIM needs this in the day and a HYPNOTIC at night. Mention lorazepam or even nitrazepam but SWIM isnt sure they use the later in the USA.

SWIM does not recommend doing this as its very dangerous but feels he should post it anyway for harm reducing reasons. SWIM has seen many others in the OP's situation and could not find a good remedy. They resorted to taking their benzos as scripted but taking their last dose with a few servings of ethanol to effectively knock them out. Yeah this works but its extremely dangerous and swim urges that if SWIY begins considering this as a viable solution, SWIY should seek out a sleep specialist for a more acceptable solution.

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Suggesting alcohol with benzos is in NO WAY "harm reduction", whether you "recommend" it or not!! In addition, more benzos on top of a benzo script isn't a great idea from a harm reduction standpoint, either!

Last edited by Phenoxide; 08-09-2012 at 14:12. Reason: post restored
  #11  
Old 06-11-2010, 16:35
RaoulDuke32 RaoulDuke32 is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

^dont start drinking with your pills.
and its probably not a good idea to start mixing pills. swim tried that with k pins and alprazolam and it seemed like the k pins overrode the xanax. you dont feel the xanax as much, almost as if your trying to take an opiate while on methadone.

ok, so you say your not tolerant/addicted, then try weaning yourself down or not taking them for awhile. if theyre already doing nothing for sleep then you dont have much to lose.

swim would try valerian+melatonin+5-htp, and excercise like crazy like movingpictures said. i mean excercise at LEAST an hour or more non stop on a bike, or 30 min running.

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Great harm reduction to warn about drinking on benzo's.
all very good points, good tips for the OP
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Old 06-11-2010, 18:34
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jit View Post
He's sure it's not a tolerance problem.
There was a time 1.5mg could cause blackouts, now SWIM has literally taken 9-12mg and, granted had no anxiety, still was totally lucid and awake.
That would seem an AWFUL lot like a tolerance problem.

Excercise! Get out of the house and do stuff during the day. A few hours of actual activity SIGNIFICANTLY improves sleep. The use of sleep inducing drugs has a tendency to make people not be active during the day, leading to less activity and a further degradation of sleep. It;s a viscous cycle that can easily be avoided with a bit of physical activity.

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excellent advice
excellent points & great advice
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Old 06-11-2010, 21:37
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Some people get it in their heads that the only thing that will work for their problems are more drugs. They may even try exercise or w/e to help sleep/reduce anxiety but in the back of their minds be doubting that it will work. That's one of the main reasons why people say exercise doesn't help their anxiety, imo. They've already convinced themselves it won't work before they even try it. One has to be seriously open to all possibilities of treatments for them to really work. I don't mean this as an insult to the OP, but I believe he believes more drugs are the only things that will help him. He really needs to be open to trying new things but not in a way where he's thinking "okay, I'll give it a shot but I know it won't work". Also, he really needs to see a therapist who specializes in anxiety/insomnia to find the root of his problems unless he wants to be dependant on huge doses of benzodiazepines and z-drugs and who knows what else to knock himself out every night for the rest of his life.

OP, please don’t take any of this as an insult. I’m truly trying to help you.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:04
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

provided Swiy has a steady supply from his doc, swim would reccomend highly that swiy makes his 90 tabs last the whole thirty days (ex. if swiy takes 6mg one day, take less the next day) this should prevent withdrawal related sleep disturbances. Also, Swim can speak from experience that melatonin supplements which are commonly available work Wonderfully combined with benzos.
Surprisingly many are sold as 1 or 3 mg tablets, when the reccomended dosage for sleep is around 300 micrograms. Swiy should find some of the 300mcg tabs, as swim has actually had trouble sleeping taking larger doses of melatonin (probably because of its similarity to tryptamines). use the melatonin as needed and it may take a few days to start becoming
effective.
Melatonin actually helps to "reset" ones body clock, so dosing at roughly the same time each night is important. once swiy's circadian rhythm is more regular, swiy should notice a huge difference

Swim's experience using both benzos and melatonin started him out with a few days of next day grogginess, but after his body clock became more regular, swim noticed a "night and day p" difference in not only the onset of, but the quality of his sleep. Swim has used the higher dose tablets and the 300mcg. ones and highly recommends USING THE 300 mcg. ones. 3mg melatonin tabs had a negative effect on his sleep cycle, as did the 1 mg.
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Old 12-11-2010, 18:21
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Advice is appreciated. None is taken in offence.

The reason he KNOWS it's not a addiction/dependence problem is because he will run out of his script early and takes easily 1 and a half to 2 week break between scripts, in the time he uses no benzos and just lives very uncomfortably in anxiety and no sleep.

The holistic route was taken here and there for months at a time, valerian+melatonin+5-htp included. None worked well and none worked atall for longer then a week or two.

It's true, now that winter's setting in his activity has been more limited, but he does get at least SOME exerciser everyday.

Anyway, he saw his doc yesterday but the guy wasn't my buddies usual guy so the doc didn't really know anything about my friends case or whatever and said the doc wouldn't add any script for a benzo unless my buddies HIS patient. And was even hesitating to refill the xanax script, though he did in the end.

Thank you guys for the info and advice. The irony with these doc visits is my buddy gets so anxious in the doctors office that he can't tell the doc what he really feels.

So he's on wellbutron, propranolol and xanax.

Jit added 6 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingPictures View Post
Some people get it in their heads that the only thing that will work for their problems are more drugs. They may even try exercise or w/e to help sleep/reduce anxiety but in the back of their minds be doubting that it will work. That's one of the main reasons why people say exercise doesn't help their anxiety, imo. They've already convinced themselves it won't work before they even try it. One has to be seriously open to all possibilities of treatments for them to really work. I don't mean this as an insult to the OP, but I believe he believes more drugs are the only things that will help him. He really needs to be open to trying new things but not in a way where he's thinking "okay, I'll give it a shot but I know it won't work". Also, he really needs to see a therapist who specializes in anxiety/insomnia to find the root of his problems unless he wants to be dependant on huge doses of benzodiazepines and z-drugs and who knows what else to knock himself out every night for the rest of his life.

OP, please don’t take any of this as an insult. I’m truly trying to help you.

If it's all in his head, PLEASE PLEASE tell how to get it out of there. He generally is a very open minded person. As a matter of fact he began construction with half the reason being "hey, I'll get some sleep from this stuff!" But after being 'let down'(should we say?) so long it's next to impossible to get away from those thoughts.

Last edited by Jit; 12-11-2010 at 18:21. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12-11-2010, 18:35
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Xanax really isnt the best benzo for sleep. Its a good "daytime" benzo for treating anxiety for exactly that reason.

As others have touched upon, i would look towards a benzo like temazepam, nitrazepam or even diazepam for sleep and Xanax as a daytime anxiolytic.

Gotta say, if your friend suffers from such disabling anxiety and insomnia what the hell is he doing playing with Xanax recreationally? The more he abuses it the less effective it will be for what he actually needs it for. Think about it.
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Old 12-11-2010, 18:49
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

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Originally Posted by Space Numpty View Post
Xanax really isnt the best benzo for sleep. Its a good "daytime" benzo for treating anxiety for exactly that reason.

As others have touched upon, i would look towards a benzo like temazepam, nitrazepam or even diazepam for sleep and Xanax as a daytime anxiolytic.

Gotta say, if your friend suffers from such disabling anxiety and insomnia what the hell is he doing playing with Xanax recreationally? The more he abuses it the less effective it will be for what he actually needs it for. Think about it.
All he can say is xanax works for sleep usually and the docs aren't suggesting any alternatives. Also keep in mind he has very little in the ways of budget and the docs say particular meds cost much much more.

And the reason he uses it recreationally is probably the same reason so so many of you do.
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Old 13-11-2010, 23:11
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jit View Post
And the reason he uses it recreationally is probably the same reason so so many of you do.
Noone here uses benzo's recreationally, only their naughty pets do.

You kind of avoided my question. It wasnt "Why does your cat use benzos recreationally?" it was "Why does you cat use benzos recreationally when he has a genuine medical requirement for them?". When one considers that the recreational value of benzos is minimal, to say the least, and that using them recreationally is only going to make them less effective when he really needs them, not to mention the increased risk of physical addiction (benzo addiction/withdrawal being potentially dangerous) it does beg the question, weighing all those pitfalls against "getting fucked up" which is all abusing benzos will do for your cat.

Mungo just struggles to see the pleasure in waking up in a jail cell with absolutely no recollection of the night before and a bleeding anus. Adding that to the fact that his recreational use may be impacting negatively on his condition just begs the question further.

It just annoys me that people like Mungo have to buy their benzos online because Doctors wont give them out because of the people who abuse/end up abusing them. If they where actually worth abusing in the first place Mungo would be far more understanding.
  #19  
Old 14-11-2010, 20:42
RaoulDuke32 RaoulDuke32 is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

ok-
benzos do have some recreational use but as my friends drug book states: "people who take them recreationally take them for the same reasons as people who take them medicinally, namely, to relax, be calm, etc."
For the most part one should just avoid taking them a lot. They work best when taken as absolutely needed.
If you take a lot of them you will develop a problem and they will stop working, as with the OP it seems.
Space is right though, if you take large doses just to feel a little fucked up, as there isnt too much euphoria, its not worth it in the long run. They wont work for your legit anxiety/sleeping problems, and benzos ARE the best thing for anxiety when used correctly.

Pretty soon youll have an anxiety problem you couldnt even have imagined before you started taking these pills. Or sleeping, in this case.

Try weaning yourself down, and get melatonin and valerian. They do work. Other than that you need to excercise and meditate and eat right.

You dont need more pills. Youve been taking a lot of xanax, which is the worst benzo addiction-wise. And you could get clonazapam or diazapam which might work better for sleep and be less addictive, they are also very cheap generically so swim doesnt know what your doctor is talking about.

RaoulDuke32 added 6 Minutes and 12 Seconds later...

Quote:
The reason he KNOWS it's not a addiction/dependence problem is because he will run out of his script early and takes easily 1 and a half to 2 week break between scripts, in the time he uses no benzos and just lives very uncomfortably in anxiety and no sleep.
Living with anxiety and no sleep? sounds like a withdrawl situation to swim. And swim still thinks you should take the 'holistic route' as its effects may not be noticable for awhile. but thats too bad it didnt really work when you tried it.
The wellbutrin can often cause a lot of anxiety, in some people as much as a straight stimulant. Why dont you try stopping that for awhile?

Last edited by RaoulDuke32; 14-11-2010 at 20:42. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #20  
Old 22-12-2010, 20:31
Jit Jit is offline
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Re: alprazolam stopped working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Numpty View Post
"Why does you cat use benzos recreationally when he has a genuine medical requirement for them?". When one considers that the recreational value of benzos is minimal, to say the least, and that using them recreationally is only going to make them less effective when he really needs them, not to mention the increased risk of physical addiction (benzo addiction/withdrawal being potentially dangerous) it does beg the question, weighing all those pitfalls against "getting fucked up" which is all abusing benzos will do for your cat.

If they where actually worth abusing in the first place Mungo would be far more understanding.
'Worth' when talking about substance use/abuse is always a very very subjective thing. One SWIY might like to huff glue, for example, to SWIM not worth it, to them it is. Simple as that.
Secondly this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaoulDuke32 View Post
ok-
benzos do have some recreational use but as my friends drug book states: "people who take them recreationally take them for the same reasons as people who take them medicinally, namely, to relax, be calm, etc."




Living with anxiety and no sleep? sounds like a withdrawl situation to swim. And swim still thinks you should take the 'holistic route' as its effects may not be noticable for awhile. but thats too bad it didnt really work when you tried it.
The wellbutrin can often cause a lot of anxiety, in some people as much as a straight stimulant. Why dont you try stopping that for awhile?
The anxiety and insomnia have been chronic problems since childhood.
And it does work great for anxiety, it just stopped working for sleep.

Stopping the wellbutron probably isn't the best choice as it's used to treat his (at one time) severe depression and has been helping a noticed amount a.k.a. worth taking. And like earlier menchioned all the anxious/sleepless problems happened YEARS before any drug use.

Update: SWIM the last few times was to anxious to ask about adding a sleep specific pill ontop of what he's on already, but today he did.
He now has some ambian to try, fingers crossed.


Just about every other piece of advice given has been tried, holistic, otc, working out, etc. And some of them work...for about a week and a half, then they fizzle and the insomnia kicks back in.

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alprazolam, anxiety treatment, benzodiazepine dependence, benzodiazepine tolerance, comparing benzodiazepines, insomnia treatment, tolerance, xanax, xanax vs klonopin

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