Dose - Fresh Kratom leaves.. dosage?

[lem]

Hi all,

This is my first post .. Anyway, SWIM has a Kratom tree, it's about 1.5m tall at the moment (about a year old from a cutting, constricted by a pot with 50cm radius, SWIM will plant out soon).

The tree has some luscious leaves on it, some appear to be quite large (14-15cm in length, 9.5cm at the widest part). Most of the leaves are about 12cm long and about 7cm wide. SWIM believes the tree the red veined variety.

Ok, what SWIM is wondering is .. for a first time dose, how much fresh leaf should SWIM be eating? All the reports and posts on this forum that SWIM has read are talking about dried leaf, powder, extracts, everything but fresh. What do you guys think?

SWIM is 170cm, 62kg.

Cheers,

Lem

[radiometer]

I'm not sure anyone here can answer that question. It's probably be easiest to weigh some, dry it out, and see how much it then weighs, so you can make a comparison based on typical dried leaf dosages.

Please report your results if you find out, thanks.

[Alfa]

That won't work. Dosage / potency is dependent upon where it is grown. Just start with 2 leaves and work your way up. Let us know.

[lem]

Thanks guys, both of your ideas are good. I remembered that Kratom potency did vary depending on season and where it's grown. It's summer where SWIM lives at the moment, 80% humidity and 33C most days.

SWIM will try eating one leaf, then another about 45 minutes or 1 hour later, depending on effects. SWIM have a high sensitivity to psychoactive substances at the moment (and for the past few years .. SWIM can be quite comfortable on half a cone of bush grown cannabis, if that puts things in perspective).

I'll be sure to post SWIM's experience to this thread here, stay tuned

[growthweb]

Please let us know if you have received any effects from taking your home grown kratom. We cant wait to find out. Thanks ...

[lem]

I haven't forgotten about this thread.. SWIM became rather busy for the year following the previous posts, which did not allow for SWIM's casual consumption of Kratom.

I have some research to do first, then SWIM will conduct a clinical trial (n=1) with fresh Kratom leaves

It is my understanding from reading some of the literature that mitragynine content in Kratom even varies with the time of day (one article suggested that it's a protective mechanism, and I think the rays of the sun deplete the concentration of mitragynine). I'll post the results of my research, but it may be a few weeks before it's completed. Thanks for your attention




Update!


Ok, a little information about Kratom leaf SWIM found out..

Approximately 60 grams of wet (fresh) leaf dried out to approximately 15g (brittle dry, able to be powdered). SWIM counted about 30 leaves (from medium-small to medium-large, about standard human hand size in surface area; SWIM expects larger leaves are possible on other Kratom trees).

So, from SWIM's information, I calculate that an average fresh Kratom leaf to weigh about 2g, and an average dry leaf to weigh 0.5g.

An internet search reveals a typical dry-weight dosage range as the following:
(XXXXXXXXXXXXX Watch what you post!)
2-6 grams = mild effects (typically the effects are stimulant-like)
7-15 grams = medium strength effects (the effects can be stimulant-like or sedative-euphoric-analgesic)
16-25 grams = strong effects (sedative-euphoric-analgesic effects; too strong for highly sensitive people)
26-50 grams = very strong effects (sedative-euphoric-analgesic effects; TOO STRONG FOR MOST PEOPLE)

Now, with SWIM's information, it appears:

4-12 leaves (8-24g fresh weight) for mild effects
14-30 leaves (28-60g fresh weight) is the medium strength
32-50 leaves (64-100g fresh weight) for strong effects
48-100 leaves (96-200g fresh weight) for very strong effects

I will update this information if SWIM provides me with more accurate measurements.

Note: I am aware of the varying potency of Kratom, so these dosages are rough estimates at best. With weak potency, one may require 100g of fresh leaves to achieve mild effects.

I will also post here again if/when SWIM decides to utilise the kratom SWIM has access to. More information about the source of the kratom will be provided also (growing conditions, climate, season, etc).

Stay tuned

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by lem

Note: I am aware of the varying potency of Kratom, so these dosages are rough estimates at best. With weak potency, one may require 100g of fresh leaves to achieve mild effects.

Or with high potency one may require 60g of fresh leaves to get strong effects, or maybe certain people are simply more susceptible to Kratom's effects.

Whenever you are dealing with variable potency always err on the side of caution first!

[radiometer]

SWIMs got a friend who toured through Thailand recently. He bought a large bag of fresh kratom leaves, and said that usually only a few leaves were required for chewing.

One could experiment with different pH levels, ala coca chewing with lime.

[Bajeda]

Originally Posted by radiometer

SWIMs got a friend who toured through Thailand recently. He bought a large bag of fresh kratom leaves, and said that usually only a few leaves were required for chewing.

One could experiment with different pH levels, ala coca chewing with lime.

As it appears that the majority of information pertaining to Mitragyna Speciosa easily accesible to the general population of non-traditional Kratom users centers around consumption of commercially prepared dry leaves one should take extra precautions when using fresh leaves. Preparation and consumption methods may differ with this form of Kratom.

Experimenting with different methods of consumption that tend to this form of the plant could be a good idea.

Otherwise it seems that drying the leaves and consuming in the normal fashion would be the most advisible suggestion to my knowledge, which isn't particularly encompassing when it comes to Kratom.

[Alfa]

5 grams of potent dry leafs will do it.

[lem]

SWIM has returned with some more details. A harvest of kratom collected in the morning before the plant had been exposed to direct sunlight.

SWIM said he collected 100 fresh leaves, ranging from small to large. The 100 leaves weighed approximately 175 grams. SWIM dried the leaves with a food dehydrator (forced airflow) at 45 degrees celsius. The dried weight was 50 grams (including leaf stems).

SWIM may ingest a dosage from this particular harvest. I will post an update if SWIM informs me of any such activity.


Update (2007-03-15)

SWIM measured about 2.5g (visually, if you could call that measuring, lol) of the dried leaf material from the batch described above and made a hot-water infusion (cup of tea). Effects were rather subtle, with a mild euphoria developing approximately 30 minutes. SWIM also said there was less mental resistance to tedious tasks (similar to the disinhibition caused by alcohol intoxication). The tea was consumed over about one hour. SWIM said the tea was a little bitter, but easily tolerable. The tea was pure kratom leaf, no added sugar or anything else. SWIM intends to try a larger dose in the near future. I will update when SWIM returns with more information.


Update 2 (2008-03-30)

I'm back, and SWIM has tried a larger dose. SWIM dried the leaves of a harvest of kratom made during a summer morning, then made a decoction. The effects of equiv. 10g dried leaf was not really noticeable. In the next few days, SWIM tried an equiv. 25g dried leaf (100ml decoction). This worked, said SWIM.

The effects were described as being similar to alcohol intoxication, a mild euphoria with a clouding of the senses. Thinking and feeling were not affected to any great extent, though SWIM said he was experiencing moderately intense anxiety, with difficulty swallowing, palpitations, dry mouth and rapid heart beat. SWIM measured his blood pressure (BP) to be 140/65 (usually close to 120/75), with heart rate at 120-140bpm. SWIM owes much of this to the anxiety state, however the kratom was likely affecting BP also. The effects lasted approximately 4 hours.

The next day (T+1 day), SWIM developed a rash on his chest. Small red bumps, not overly itchy, which seemed to spread very slowly. They are worse for clothing, and feel a bit warmer than the rest of SWIM's skin. Emotionally solemn day, mental faculties all present and functioning fine. Sleep was good.

The day after (T+2 days), SWIM noted the rash had spread to his back, this time a bit more itchy. SWIM was experiencing no other hypersensitivity symptoms (such as running nose or sneezing). SWIM is usually in good health, with few infections (one or less per year), and has no real known allergies (apart from possibly bee stings). Still a bit solemn on this day, but better than the previous.

SWIM may or may not try Kratom again, but thinks this particular tree produces a mild potency leaf, owing to poor growing conditions (soil). SWIM does not smoke cannabis or use any other recreational drug, just occasional alcohol (up to 2.8 standard drinks, usually two heavy beers, once or twice in a week).


Well, quite interesting. The dried leaf dosage may not be proportional to the fresh leaf dosage, and I'm not sure if SWIM will find out. Personally I'd expect fresh leaves to be more potent since there is less time for constituents to degrade, and also not being subjected to heat (such as during decocting).


Any thoughts from people here? Rash from kratom? SWIM is a little baffled, as am I. Delayed hypersensitivity reaction perhaps? I've read that Kratom shares some phytochemistry with Uncaria species (Uncaria tomentosa, Cat's claw, the pentacyclic oxindole alkaloid type), which has immune enhancing properties. Perhaps Kratom's alkaloids and its metabolites have long half-lives, and may elicit a hypersensitivity reaction over time, but individual dependent? Another consideration may be SWIM's experience while on the kratom. An anxiety-dominated state was not expected, and was rough both mentally and emotionally. Perhaps SWIM is having an "allergic reaction" to the experience itself.