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Opiate addiction Support for coping with Opiate addiction and Opiate addiction treatment.

View Poll Results: Why do Junkies Lie So Much? AKA Would Legalization Stop Deceit?
Junkies lie because of addiction, cravings, etc -(see post for more) 28 46.67%
Junkies lie because they are forced to by society and prohibition. (see post for more) 26 43.33%
Don't Know/Something Else/Other 6 10.00%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

 
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  #1  
Old 23-08-2010, 19:44
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

I was thinking/reading about this today, and want to pose a poll. Please vote and share your thoughts.

CONTINUED OPTIONS: I ran out of room to write the options out. see the following:
1- they want to get high no matter what they must do. Even if drugs were legal, junkies would lie.
2-If drugs were made legal and available or even available via doctors RX to treat addiction (as in methadone treatment, but for other appropriate substances) junkies would not feel forced to have to do anything for drugs.

Last edited by Rainbowzz; 23-08-2010 at 19:50.
  #2  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:04
missparkles missparkles is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

It not drugs that addicts lie about, it's the behaviour. In the 60s when Sparkles was a registered addict she got her diamorphine for nothing, as did most every other addict (even the unregistered ones) but they didn't stop lying. You were always put on the spot, either about when you were gonna quit, get a job, go back to school, basically, do something with your life. And you just kept making excuses, and those excuses had to be covered. You didn't do normal stuff, well your thoughts were completely taken up with where the next score (of drugs you weren't prescribed) was gonna come from.

Like today, addicts will focus on where the very next high is coming from, and after they get high they're obsessed about where the next is coming from. It never ends. You promise you'll get your life back on track, and have to lie your ass off to justify why it isn't happening. Then people stop trusting you, so you have to make the lies better, just so they'll believe you the next time, then you gotta cover those lies.

It's a merry go round that once started, it's virtually impossible to get off of. Eventually, you do tell the truth, but you've lied for so long, no one believes you any more. That makes you feel guilty and ashamed, so you need to use more of your DOC. That makes it so much harder to do the things you've been promising to do. And the lies continue. It's a circular set of circumstances, you just keep on rinsing and repeating.

Sparkles.

Last edited by missparkles; 23-08-2010 at 20:09. Reason: typo
  #3  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:06
day_sleeper day_sleeper is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

The stigma from society in general and fear of punishment is a very strong driving force behind the lies but lying becomes a way of life to alot of people who have any kind of addiction not just junk.

I personally have been in situations where lying has to be done to protect others around me from my trainwreck of a life!also if people wernt so judgemental about the faults of others then useser would be able to be helped ALOT more effectively!

D.S
  #4  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:22
Sky Walker Gold member Sky Walker is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

I opted for Don't Know/Something else/Other. The reason being, why does anyone lie? Telling lies isn't specific to 'junkies' and I don't believe that lying is a symptom of drug addiction, in fact, I believe that drug addiction is a symptom of a dishonest mindset. The addiction just helps to mask the Guilt and Shame one feels about that dishonest mindset.

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Very good point made. Great for furthering the conversation and opening things up to different paths.
reply clarifies the poll and provides insight
  #5  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:27
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

I should clarify - I didnt specifically mean lies about drugs. I meant lies in general that are told by junkies, both about drugs and the behavior.

Let me clarify further - say society changed, and there was no need to lie. Drug addiction was suddenly looked upon as a relatively normal experience, no shame involved, and drugs were supplied(within reason of course and in the course of stabilization treatment or just available OTC or RX) for them.

Do you think that junkies would continue to lie to get MORE than they were being given, to have MORE of an experience with the substances, would the drugs themselves make the junkies ability to handle spontaneous thought next to nothing?

Lets encompass ALL the types of lying into one group. Were drugs legal, would this continue?

Rainbowzz added 1 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

Everyone - awesome, thanks very much for all the responses. Great insight on the last response about lying not being specific to junkies - I just happened to pick this minority group because it is talked about frequently on DF.


My goal here is to see what WOULD alleviate this process of snowball lying that seems to occur with opiate addiction and often other addiction. Why do these lies occur?

Last edited by Rainbowzz; 23-08-2010 at 20:27. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #6  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:35
missparkles missparkles is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

When we reach maturity there are expectations on each and every one of us, we're expected to be responsible for ourselves, and to others in our immediate family (and social) circle. These expectations are governed by societal norms, and when we use drugs we don't fit into these societal and cultural norms. This is where lying come into the equation. Also whatever drug an addict uses it's never enough, you always wanna push it, don't you?

You can't say if drugs were free, or if guilt and shame vanished due to societies tolerance, cos it's not gonna happen. Moot point. I hear people say if drugs were legalised the problems addicts faced would be halved. Well, they weren't in the 60s, cos addicts still lied back then.

Sparkles.
  #7  
Old 23-08-2010, 20:48
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Another good point, Sparkles.

So I guess a secondary question is, if we can acheive decrim, legalization, a change in societal values - would ANY lessing of addicts issue be worth the possible increase in those we do drugs?

Where does one balance things?
  #8  
Old 23-08-2010, 21:04
missparkles missparkles is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

There's also the other issue, powerlessness. Addicts feel as if they have failed cos they can't live their life without some kinda crutch, this makes them feel worthless, so they lie about how clever they are, or their accomplishments. Or they feel invisible, that no one cares about them, so they dramatise what their life is like, often adding medical emergencies and health problems that either don't exist, or that are not as bad as they're portraying them to be, just to illicit sympathy and attention. So many reasons why addicts lie, and most of them have nothing to do with drug prohibition.

Sparkles.
  #9  
Old 23-08-2010, 21:35
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Thats a great point. I have found myself honestly, to have done that at points in the past (the accomplishments). In the cases I can think of they were not so much complete falsities, but more embellishments( I have said " I have a degree in Graphic Design - which makes one think of a four year program, when in fact I have a one year diploma.) I just find it sounds better but I try to curb that. And if i have found myself having lied, if at all possible I try to out myself to at least SOMEONE i trust... this way it doesn't get out of hand. I have also, being honest - found myself confused about something I have said - therapist says this comes from my dissociative identity disorder however, because there is a disconnect between the "personalities" or what have you. This is not for me drug related so much, though of course when intoxicated one tends to be more looselipped - this is something that has existed for me since childhood,and I attribute this to the fact that my adopted parents were of the type who nothing is good enough - for example if I scored a 90% on a test, it was not what a great job, it was "why couldn't you make 100%? That/Those mistake(s) are totally careless and you should have been more careful!" Eventually it got to the point where I was so sick of rejection, that I just lied and told them what they wanted to hear.

Having said that - is some portion of this deceitful behavior due to fear of rejection? Is some of it perhaps just telling people what they wish to hear to avoid confrontation? Is there a connection(I think there is!) between severe fear of rejection and drug addiction?

Just some more points to ponder.
  #10  
Old 23-08-2010, 21:36
rokman nash rokman nash is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Dave lied because to tell the truth would end the ride. He did whatever he had to do to continue down the path of his destruction. The first few years were easy Dave was making half a million dollars a year. Then the economy went south and Dave was making 150,000 a year, still he could maintain(his habit 2-3 years in was costing 1000-1500 a week). When Dave was making 80,000 a year the problems began. He began cooking the books, shuffling money from one account to the other, and basically fucking everything in his life up..

His credit was good so he took out every credit card he could(about35) and continued on. At this point he knew there was a problem(he had known for awhile). His life was nothing but a web of lies. When Dave came to his senses he was half a million dollars in debt but still had his business. Almost two years years later hes clean about 7 months, but still cleaning up the mess his lies created.

It doesnt matter whether you have money, or your a street junkie, all junkies lie period. Show me a using junkie who says he doesnt lie and ill show you a fucking liar.

Good Thoughts

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Excellent point and shares very personal experience
  #11  
Old 23-08-2010, 22:05
EyesOfTheWorld EyesOfTheWorld is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Also one needs to consider the fact that if someone isn't living a "normal" life, something is to be considered "wrong with them", and drug related or not, these people have to lie to cover up why, to use the example of SWIM, at 33 years old they still don't have the 2.5 kids and the house on the hill. SWIM really has no interest in that shit, and doubts sobriety would make him think differently. A lot of like minded people, like SWIM, tend to retreat into their various addictions.
  #12  
Old 24-08-2010, 05:05
I<3Salvia I<3Salvia is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Lie about what? Using? Enjoying the substance? To other people about random things as a side effect of using the drug? Having a more specific poll would help procure more specific data.
  #13  
Old 24-08-2010, 13:39
top_hat top_hat is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Rainbowzz you struck a heartstring in me

"Eventually it got to the point where I was so sick of rejection, that I just lied and told them what they wanted to hear."

Perhaps the sneaking and lying about everything comes from not being totally satisfied with oneself.... I like to think that there is such a state of mind and moving toward that is what keeps me going lol

I'm going to perform an experiment and see if I can go 1 week without outright lying and bending the truth. If I don't want to provide an answer I will tell them. I will only use evasive answers when absolutely necessary e.g.
Detective: "What is in that small baggie of white powder?"
Fox: "THEY BROUGHT F'ING GUNS!?"*points one way hauls ass the other*

-Fox
  #14  
Old 25-08-2010, 01:42
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Quote:
Originally Posted by I<3Salvia View Post
Lie about what? Using? Enjoying the substance? To other people about random things as a side effect of using the drug? Having a more specific poll would help procure more specific data.
I actually realize this now.

What would be your suggestion to make it better? I am realizing now its much too vague.
  #15  
Old 25-08-2010, 09:44
ex-junkie ex-junkie is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Junkies lie for two main reasons (IMO).

1) They lie to themselves because they don't want to admit responsibility for their problems.

2) Disappointment from loved ones, first and foremost.They lie to others because there is a fair amount of shame involved in admitting their problems to people in society. "Junkies" have to deal with living in a low social class; this is for many reasons; society forces them into a lower social class, distrust and fear of society, institutional discrimination- in the forms of not having the same opportunities for employment, for healthcare, for community interaction, society as a whole looking down on illegal drugs and addicts in general; through upbringing, media, social institutions, mang this list could continue forever...

*I feel the need to discuss the healthcare aspect further... "Junkies" are discriminated against in healthcare for the following reasons. They are mostly treated with a biomedical approach which lays the blame directly onto the addict, without considering the social determinants that caused the addiction in the first place. Doctors/specialists aren't always tactful when treating addicts, after all they are from a higher social class, often lack sympathy, and don't always prescribe the necessary medication required for a comfortable detox. [WHICH IS POSSIBLE MIGHT I ADD].

There is nothing culturally safe about their "one size fits all approach". Fuuuuuuuuck everybody is different in weight, gender, health, fitness, etc. I'm not sure why they believe that starting doses for drug "X" must ALL start at "X"mg.... it's pathetic.


Anyways my initial point about healthcare is that addicts are made to feel like scum when they are seeking help. Discrimination comes both actively and passively, and tbh some medical professionals probably aren't even aware that they're doing it, but they are.

Last edited by ex-junkie; 25-08-2010 at 09:53. Reason: grammar... duh
  #16  
Old 25-08-2010, 19:38
TheBigBadWolf TheBigBadWolf is offline
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AW: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

In SWIMs life lying was mainly a tool to cope with his anxiety, shame and feelings of worthlessness.
SWIM noticed that since he is in MMT now the tenth year, lies have become less for the reason of accepting addiction as a normal widespread illness and that there are other people bearing diseases much worse than that bit of opiate addiction SWIM takes his methadone for.
Okay, SWIM does lie, espescially to his doc about the way he uses his methadone:
not daily but in triple doses each third and fourth day, but thats a thing for SWIM to reduce his body's craving for the substance )or at least SWIM feels about it in this way)
Not to be able to be honest all the time makes SWIM feel dirty and unworthy some time, but that's how one has to cope with the social conditions.
Thats wha SWim voted second choice.
TBBW
  #17  
Old 29-08-2010, 02:23
Euthanatos93420 Euthanatos93420 is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

My sig should say just what I think.

Even honest people with a managed addiction/dependency that they have no desire to end or change and are otherwise functional and decent people have to lie and do so routinely because of society and law.

There's really nothing wrong with their dependent behavior. Just the NARCisstic society they're forced to live in on top of dealing with a chemical dependency.

Not all addicts have personality disorders. We only notice the ones that do because the ones that do the dope and keep it together manage to effectively stay out of sight out of mind.

People who don't do drugs still have personality problems. I've known some stone cold sober psycho people. The truth is that a lot of so-called junkies have the same story. It usually starts with chold molestation or other major trauma combined with a lack of parental presence of some kind, flounders around state care, dope, jail, criminal organizations, and ends in prison.

These people reflect OUR sins of social welfare and our apathy in considering our proclivity to the chaos of what it means to be human. This sector grows with every depression which they hit is harder and harder with every wave they convince us to spend a good share of our resources on weapons and warfare.

It has nothing to do with drugs. The idea that it does, or that drugs caused this cultural phenomenon is absurd. No, it is human nature to be partially chemically dependant. Not every will be and we can tolerate those who are because it doesn't mean that everyone will be as well if we finally sit down and act like decent human beings to them.

We're the ones being savage. They're the ones we've neglected to show another way of doing things.

This is the decay of the decay of the mind that every feels today. We've forgotten that we are in fact, not alone. No man is an island, and neither is mankind. If we don't think of ourselves as such, then those with a larger perspective that have no concern for our petty selfish endeavors and vicious blood we shed over them will see us as nothing more than the irrational, self-centered, and angst-ridden self-injury and accident prone teenagers we are.

Fortunately, if life out there is anything like life is here, and the fractal nature of life suggests that it is on some planes of reality then it's sort of their responsibility to show us how to grow up.

...but I digress...

These social cliches and their cliche behaviour are not representative of the substances they use. Other people are lying to you and saying that. It's propaganda, the art of mass delusion, it is an ancient and occult tradition.

Last edited by Euthanatos93420; 29-08-2010 at 02:43.
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Old 29-08-2010, 08:45
EyesOfTheWorld EyesOfTheWorld is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyesOfTheWorld View Post
Also one needs to consider the fact that if someone isn't living a "normal" life, something is to be considered "wrong with them", and drug related or not, these people have to lie to cover up why, to use the example of SWIM, at 33 years old they still don't have the 2.5 kids and the house on the hill. SWIM really has no interest in that shit, and doubts sobriety would make him think differently. A lot of like minded people, like SWIM, tend to retreat into their various addictions.




hmmm..................suprised there's no thoughts on this one, thought it would be pretty common
  #19  
Old 29-08-2010, 10:30
Spucky Spucky is offline
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AW: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

imo. three (and a half!) major reasons:

1. lost of the Codex of Value

2. hormonal change, change in the Brain-Chemistry,
see the Oxytocin-Files!
https://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sh...39&postcount=1

3. Babarization/ Brutalization

ps. the Cat lied many times because she want to protect, ie. her Family!
  #20  
Old 29-08-2010, 17:29
EyesOfTheWorld EyesOfTheWorld is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

And then of course there's the standard lies about money, ie:
"Joe, can I borrow $50? I just blew a flat tire"- when there was no flat tire and that money is going right to dope, or
GF: "Where did all this month's bill money go?"
BF: "Relax, honey, I already sent it in and paid all the bills" *nods, falls off bed*
Again, if heroin were legal for addicts over 18, and sold for low prices in stores, these scenarios would not happen
  #21  
Old 30-08-2010, 07:51
dyingtomorrow dyingtomorrow is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

As was already mentioned, many junkies lie to themselves. The first major lie is "I am not addicted." And then there is the lie of "I am going to get off it this time." SWIM never had that problem though, he always knew what he was and what he wanted, and sure as hell wasn't ever going to lie to himself that he wants to get off heroin.

As for lying to others, I'd break that into two categories as well. First is lying just so as not to "rock the boat." In other words, keep everyone's life around you flowing smoothly by not putting your shit on them. Just doing your thing in secret. I don't see anything wrong with these kind of lies; e.g. "Where did you go?" - "Oh just to a friend's house for a while to watch TV." If you are addicted, can support yourself and not at a point where you need help, and everyone around you is living out their life just fine, if anything it is selfish not to lie to them.

Then there are lies trying to get something out of someone you know/love/care about. Like telling them you lost your wallet and need money to pay a bill, or shit like that. Or the lies homeless people have that they are hungry or stranded to try and panhandle heroin/crack money. Obviously these are morally wrong.


As for the question of whether drug users would still lie if it was legal, I'd say no. The only reason people need to lie is because of all the impediments to getting their DOC. If it was legal and accepted there would be absolutely no reason to lie. Of course there are people who are just compulsive liars anyways, but that is irrelevant. In the scenario you are describing where there is no legal or moral force stopping people from getting their DOC anymore, it kind of answers the question that there would be no more lying about it.
  #22  
Old 31-08-2010, 13:38
Rainbowzz Rainbowzz is offline
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Re: Perspective on Why Junkies Often Lie

I am going to try to gather whats been said here, and make a new poll some time today that is more thorough.

I find all of this very interesting but I realize now that my poll was terrible - it simply doesn't narrow things down enough. Too many variables - lies about what, to whom, regarding whom and tons of other stuff.

Everyone lies i think to some degree, some mild and some pathological.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Good idea, it'll make it easier for everyone to understand.

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