I've always had trouble sleeping. I'm currently taking Zoloft 75mg/day and Concerta 75mg/day + 2 x 10mg Ritalin.
The Concerta, of cource, doesn't help me sleep, but it doesn't seem to have any negative effects either, as my sleep is just as bad, even after 2 weeks without the Concerta.
I went to my doc, and he prescribed Klonopin (clonazepam) 2-4mg before sleep and/or 2-4 mg Xanax (alprazolam).
I think that the sleep problems are a long term thing, and therefore these drugs ain't right as they will lose their effects and are addictive.
Do you people know if there are any other drugs, that can be taken with Zoloft and Concerta for sleep? (Not benzos/(es)zopiclone etc.).
I've been on numerous ADD/ADHD medicine all my life and about 3 years ago I noticed that I was always tired. Go try a over the counter stuff I recommend Advil PM (200mg) it knocks me out cold. The negitive about this is sometimes when you're out you can't go to sleep without them or its really hard.
Also what you got prescribed is lucky i'd recommend the Xanax (it's sold for alot and can be abused very easly) it knocks SWIM out at doses like 8mg because of tolerance but i used to pass out on 1mg easly.
The best non-addictive sleep aid I have tried recently is Melatonin. It is pretty inexpensive and can be purchased at pharmacies and grocery stores. It works for me, at least. Just give it about 3 days or so, to get into your system. Another is Triptophan.
The third one I have tried, works, but it has addictive qualities is Ambien.
Don't fight it, if you can't sleep, don't lay there stressing it, get up for half an hour and read, just don't turn the lights on full, keep it subdued. The best idea is to get into a regular sleep pattern. Maybe you need less sleep than most people, so get creative.
Go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time. No exercise or alcohol at least 3-4 hours before bedtime. Make your sleep area for sleep only, if you work at a computer in your bedroom it will be seen as a work area, not a sleep area. Sparkles listens to audio books, and as she's concentrating on the story she's listening to, she dozes off to sleep. She's not focused on not sleeping.
As Sparkles said, attempting natural sleep is really the best answer.
On the pharmaceutical spectrum, Mr. Mackey was once in a situation not at all unlike SWIY's. He found the most effective sleeping aid to be clonidine; which is a non-addictive, a2 adrenergic agonist. The problem lies in the potentially grave physical side-effects. A common one being rebound hypertension.
Mirtazepine is also great too: a tetracyclic antidepressant with potent antihistamine/anticholinergic effects.
Discuss it with the doctor, and mention that SWIY has no wishes to continue a benzodiazepine regiment.
SWIM has been using 7.5mg of zopiclone on a nightly basis for well over two years. Some nights he re-doses with another 3.75mg around twenty minutes after. Obviously this has become a persistent habit. SWIM has worries about being without it. He imagines scenarios such as running out which he admits sometimes cause anxiety.
He has heard and read very good reports about the effectiveness of melatonin for aiding sleep. SWIM was wondering if a tapering regime of reducing zopiclone dosage whilst gradually replacing it with melatonin increments may help?
He's told me that he's aware that such an idea might not be safe, but is keen to hear from other SWIYs who may know more about healthily progressing from one to the other or if it's possible at all.
Last edited by Smeg; 07-06-2010 at 22:08.
Reason: punctuation- missing apostorphe
Swim used to have problems sleeping at night and would lay in bed counting sheep, breathing deeply, and think and peaceful things but his mind just didn't want to calm down. A while ago he picked up some melatonin at a GMC by his house and when he first started taking it he was dissapointed and didn't feel like it made much of a difference. Recently however he started taking 2 or 3 of them along with a tylenol pm, which also previously didn't have much effect, and the combination has swim feeling sleepy like he hasn't felt in a long time within an 45 min. of ingesting. Hope this helps
SWIM thanks SWIYmokoceno as this is another endorsement of melatonin as being effective in sleep promotion.
SWIM hasn't detected disdain in any posts for this medication in DF. He tells me, however, that he is interested in the transition from zopiclone to melatonin as being an eventual viable alternative to being dependent on Z. SWIM feels gratitude to the thread and its authors.
Any more specific advice would be gratefully received.
SWIM strongly, strongly suggests this from his vast experience with insomnia: take Klonopin, even up to 4mg (2 is high to start!), as your first attempt at pharmaceutical treatment. If that fails, he suggests SWIY requests their doctor cuts their Kpin dose in half and adds Zolpidem (Ambien). Reasoning? Here is what SWIM saw to be true in himself, and what 25+ years of practice has his psychiatrist observing:
1. Klonopin does NOT build much of a tolerance compared to either Xanax or Ambien. Tolerance to somnolence effects and anxiety effects are built independent of each other on benzos. Klonopin has the best profile, with the majority of long-term (even 10+ years) users being fine with typical or (as SWIY has) low doses.
2. Xanax almost never builds tolerance on the anxiety end after the initial adjustment your body makes, but will stop making 90% of individuals even drowsy within a month of steady use. It's also the only of the three drugs in question that has much true appeal to addictive behavior. Klonopin has such a long half-life that it doesn't cause cravings like Xanax, and Ambien really either knocks an individual out or makes them feel a little, as best SWIM can describe it, ill.
3. Ambien works long-term for people who haven't been on benzo drugs (klonopin, xanax) before almost 100% of the time. The issue with so many people complaining about the drug becoming ineffective is rarely spoken. Almost anyone who is taking Ambien has spent a good amount of time on SOME drug of the benzo classification during their life for anxiety, and often even still are in conjunction with the Ambien. This is not good, since they both play off the same GABA receptors.
The one giant issue some people have with Ambien even when it works, and why SWIM suggests SWIY asks to adjust to Ambien with Klonopin still included in treatment, is the rebound insomnia. Zolpidem is a short acting drug, and many people like SWIM will wake the moment it starts really losing its impact. At that point, something happens of which SWIM speculates the cause but knows painfully well the feeling. Patients will often not only awake with rebound insomnia, but with awful anxiety, worse than anything they are used to. SWIM speculates the Ambien stimulates the GABA receptors that traditional anxiety benzos hit- not enough to produce a direct change in them, but enough to cause them to experience withdrawal (thus causing anxiety) once the Zolpidem is gone.
So that's SWIM's long, long summary he meant to keep brief.
If SWIY has any questions, feel free to reply or PM me.
SWIM also agrees with sparkles in regards to a natural approach to sleep-induction. Furthermore, SWIM highly suggests SWIY watch SWIY's caffeine consumption, particularly within 6-8 hours of going to bed.
That being said, SWIM has also dealt with insomnia for many years. After trying various benzos and non-benzo "Z-drugs", SWIM found Quetiapine Fumarate (brand name Seroquel) to be the most effective sleep aid for SWIM.
Seroquel is considered to be an atypical antipsychotic and is primarily indicated for the treatment of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. However, many physicians, and patients alike, have recognized its potential as a very effective sleep aid. SWIM recommends SWIY ask his doctor about this unique medication.
Hello Icelandic Swim! I am going to tell you SWiM's experience, so you can relate. I had difficulties sleeping too, and was always tired during the day and sleep.
Then i started to take melatonin. It's a very natural medicine, actually is an hormon prodoced by your body according to its circadian circle. Most likely SWIY can't sleep becouse his circadian cycle is messed up, or maybe becouse of all that medicines he has been prescribed.
Start taking melatonin regularry, once a day, always at the same dosage and at the same time. Try to sleep at least 8 ours. It's going to stabilize SWIY and after a week or two of melatonin use he will be going to sleep well without aid!
I've heard all about melatonin and valerian root but I've never tried it. That really should be the first thing one should try before taking something as addictive as clonazepam, alprazolam, or zolipedim. Also excercise, excercise, excercise. It helps a lot. I mean this very seriously. It's the best sleep aid you'll ever find. Make a habit of it. If not everyday, atleast a few times a week. Try running, if you can't run, bike. Biking is great. I've heard, but have no proof, that biking at full speed it the same as running at full speed but you don't get as winded because biking is less impact on you body. Excercise and try supplements. If that doesn't work,
Don't start with klonopin or xanax. There are more sedating benzos like dalmane and restoril (temazepam). They also have much less potential (in my mind) for daytime abuse. I used to be on clonazepam during the day for anxiety and dalmane at night for sleep. 15 mg dalmane helped but it wasn't as effective as 50 mg promethazine. Try promethazine or hyrdoxizine (sp?) before a benzo or z drug. Currently, I take 50 mg diphenhydramine (OTC) nightly for sleep. It works 9/10 times but I also excercise. The only problem is I cannot fall asleep without it. I'll lay in bed till the sun comes up without sleep if I don't have it or something else. You can become dependant on anything you take for sleep, so try excercise first.
Don't fight it, if you can't sleep, don't lay there stressing it, get up for half an hour and read, just don't turn the lights on full, keep it subdued. The best idea is to get into a regular sleep pattern. Maybe you need less sleep than most people, so get creative.
Go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time. No exercise or alcohol at least 3-4 hours before bedtime. Make your sleep area for sleep only, if you work at a computer in your bedroom it will be seen as a work area, not a sleep area. Sparkles listens to audio books, and as she's concentrating on the story she's listening to, she dozes off to sleep. She's not focused on not sleeping.
Sparkles.
this is great advice. swim finds when he lays in bed and cant sleep, he gets pissed off, which will compound the problem. also smoking a cig right before bed doesn't help, he smokes his last about 30-40 min before attempting to sleep. what is the main problem, is swiys mind racing when he tries to sleep. thats swims main problem, he doesn't listen to music for 4 hours before he goes to bed because it will become stuck in his head, and he wont sleep.
swim has taken everything, from alprazolam to melatonin, and everything in between. the best thing for him was 1 mg alprazolam and ten mg ambien, taken separately he would need 4 times as much, but the low dose combo, worked very well. the alprazolam slows his thinking down, and allows him to become relaxed. the ambien makes him actually tired.
There was a highly prescribed drug called Quaaludes back in the 70s & 80s. It was banned in 1984 because it was so abused (recreational use). Its primary medical use was as a sleeping aide. I heard it was extremely effective for sleeping, but I never used it for that purpose & neither did 99% of the other users.
Swim tried 69rons Elemicin extraction from elemi oil, before he can get any real psychedelic ascept beyond the cannabis high he also had, he would fall asleep. It puts him out in 30 mins, NO JOKE!
Your oil is high in eucalyptol no doubt. Elemicin is a stimulant. Eucalyptol is a sedative and some elemi oil contains a lot of it. The extraction tech I posted gets rid of most of the junk in the oil but NOT eucalyptol. So if your elemi oil contains a lot of eucalyptol, the extract will make you sleepy, and might even give you a headache. Not all elemi oil is the same. Some contains almost no elemicin, and lots of eucalyptol. Try a different brand or different batch that's high in elemicin and low in eucalyptol, unless you like to get sleepy from it, of course
Amytryptaline, highest dose (50mg) if not. Try, trazadone/escitalopram combination. Trazadone at night, escitalopram in the day.
Intermediate acting benzodiazepines may be the best thing in the short term (nitrazepam (5-10mg), temazepam (10-20mg). Stop this medication and then change to trycyclics/tetracyclics.
Short acting benzodiazepines usually do nothing for sleep in the short or long term. Alprazolam could cause SWIY to pass out and wake up in the early hours.
The spate of new sleeping pills on the market are effective treatments for insomnia, but they have different effects and no one drug stands out as the best, according to a new review of studies on drugs including Sonata, Ambien and Lunesta.
I've heard all about melatonin and valerian root but I've never tried it. That really should be the first thing one should try before taking something as addictive as clonazepam, alprazolam, or zolipedim. Also excercise, excercise, excercise. It helps a lot. I mean this very seriously. It's the best sleep aid you'll ever find. Make a habit of it. If not everyday, atleast a few times a week. Try running, if you can't run, bike. Biking is great. I've heard, but have no proof, that biking at full speed it the same as running at full speed but you don't get as winded because biking is less impact on you body. Excercise and try supplements. If that doesn't work,
Don't start with klonopin or xanax. There are more sedating benzos like dalmane and restoril (temazepam). They also have much less potential (in my mind) for daytime abuse. I used to be on clonazepam during the day for anxiety and dalmane at night for sleep. 15 mg dalmane helped but it wasn't as effective as 50 mg promethazine. Try promethazine or hyrdoxizine (sp?) before a benzo or z drug. Currently, I take 50 mg diphenhydramine (OTC) nightly for sleep. It works 9/10 times but I also excercise. The only problem is I cannot fall asleep without it. I'll lay in bed till the sun comes up without sleep if I don't have it or something else. You can become dependant on anything you take for sleep, so try excercise first.
SWIM would perhaps offer a cautionary tale involving valerian and melatonin combo. SWIM is unsure which particular medication/supplement in one of her sleep cocktails causes it to hit like a hammer, but it is either melatonin and/or valerian along with one of the other sedatives she consumes. Given the duration of effects caused by one particular combination, SWIM suspects it is amitriptyline which has a relative long duration of action. Tranquillizers were used as well but they don't have a duration of action long enough to explain the elongated sleep unless metabolism was inhibited by one of the herbal components.
Melatonin and Valerian both say "do not mix with tranquillizers" on the bottle, and there are too many substances involved to determine which in particular was responsible for the extreme potentiation of effects. More over swim doesn't really want to find out.
The point is, melatonin and herbal sleeping formulations such as valerian should be treated with the same respect one would with any pharmaceutical regarding combinations of substances.
Best sleeping pills Rohypnol, or a mix of xanax 2mg with soma 350mg. knocks ya out. A valium in there too won't make you sleep less.
Personal favorite for sleep and non-recreational for SWIM is Xanax 2mg bars, one or two knocks him right out, specially if a soma (carisoprodol) it taken with it.
Another one could be tramadol + strong benzo also a knock out.
SWIM tried the following individually and found them to cause morning grogginess/hangover: amitriptyline 10 mg, trazodone 25 mg, mirtazapine 15 mg. He finds hydroxyzine sedating but also depressing at the same time. Perhaps SWIY could sleep through the depression. SWIM had rebound anxiety on clonazepam 0.5-1 mg and found it not to be too effective. SWIM used to fall asleep on diphenhydramine 25 mg but can now stay awake through 50 mg.
SWIM is on zolpidem 10 mg and cannot take it every day without developing a tolerance. SWIM has good luck with it combined with lorazepam 1-2 mg. Sorry this isn't the answer SWIY is looking for.
Best sleeping pills Rohypnol, or a mix of xanax 2mg with soma 350mg. knocks ya out. A valium in there too won't make you sleep less.
Personal favorite for sleep and non-recreational for SWIM is Xanax 2mg bars, one or two knocks him right out, specially if a soma (carisoprodol) it taken with it.
Another one could be tramadol + strong benzo also a knock out.
SWIM has to address this post, as a severe insomniac he would remiss if he didn't address some of these ideas- if taken as solid advice, they could truly be harmful. He doesn't like to discredit the ideas of others, but he has to chime in.
SWIM agrees that Rohypnol will knock anyone out, but it's illegal almost everywhere now- and for good reason. It's simply unsafe to take, even alone- the amount it lowers inhibitions and creates amnesia are the reasons it's still the "date rape" drug of choice. If someone lives in a place where they CAN get a script for it, this would be a good "last resort" after other sleep aids failed.
Also, 2mg Xanax is a heavy dose to be divided up during the day by someone with mild anxiety. Using that for more than a couple weeks is going to cause HEAVY benzo dependence- and will cause LOTS of daytime anxiety. Soma is abused for so many purposes, it's a personal peeve for SWIM. He actually needs it for chronic pain, but it's tough for doctors to prescribe long-term, because people use it for everything from pain, to recreation, to insomnia.
Tramadol is essentially an opiod analog. It also is found to be stimulating as opposed to sedating for most people at higher prescribed doses. There is no reason to risk dependence on a pain pill for sleep. It also works in part by incorporating effects on the serotonin receptors. This could be dangerous considering the OP mentioned Zoloft, an SSRI. While unlikely at a prescribed dose of 50-100mg, a large dose of Tramadol given to an SSRI patient could cause Serotonin Syndrome.
SWIM's prior statement in the thread still holds true. It's four months of continuous use later, and zolpidem (Ambien) is still effective in knocking him out- just not keep him asleep all night, same as day one. Ambien CR was tried for a month and was a dream come true for SWIM, but isn't generic and is thus cost-prohibitive.
The bottom line is that SWIM would stop considering zolpidem a "short-term" use drug. If SWIY isn't taking other benzos for other reasons (mainly anxiety obviously), Ambien and especially Ambien CR can be amazing treatments for lengthy or even indefinite periods of time for many people.
If that is still not something SWIY wants to pursue, there isn't a more effective drug that doesn't have its own problems. The next suggestion after Ambien would be to consider SWIY's "sleep hygiene". Is there a normal pattern the body is allowed to follow, or does SWIY keep themselves up after they start feeling drowsy some nights, then try sleeping early to "catch up" other nights? Both are bad- rule #1 is to listen to the body- when tiredness starts to be noticeable, 95% of "sleep disorder" patients can fall asleep if given a quiet, comfortable environment in which to rest. This proves just as true even if taking something like Ambien- if an individual attempts to go to bed before they start feeling tired by popping an Ambien, it's going to be a hellish night of sleep. Even if it means possibly staying up for 24-36 hours without sleep, the goal should be to try going to bed at the desired time one evening while feeling sleepy. That sounds simple, but for many people who work odd hours or have many personal obligations, they either go to sleep hours after they should have, not getting enough rest- or they force themselves to toss and turn by going to sleep before their body asks for it.
There is only one other possible thing SWIM would like to address, as it's his personal situation. He has the poor luck of suffering from insomnia, and severe general anxiety- as mutually exclusive disorders. So, a sleeping aid doesn't help, as he'll have anxious dreams and awake in a panic. Anxiety treatment doesn't help, as he lays there relaxed all night, wide awake. He found that it was necessary to combine a bedtime dose of a sleep aid (zolpidem 10mg) and a long-acting anti-anxiety med (clonazepam 1mg) right before bed. This gets him through the night with both sleep and lack of nightmares/unpleasant awakenings. The long-acting trait of the clonazepam (Klonopin) also doesn't cause withdrawal, as over time it's accumulated to a degree where it's still somewhat present at the time of the next night's dose.
hey all
umm swim was perscribed ambain bout 2 weeks ago and nite bfor last after taking 30mg abian (have done 60mg only a week bfor and usualy take 2 before bed) and swim started holusinating !!! and hes no stranger to bezos, and havent had much lsd in his my life bout 3-4 times, but hed rather use somthing else , witch brings me to the holusinations... witch if swy's had would know what im talking about... swims not talking about just minor (walls breathing ) bout2 hours after i had them i look at the door and the door nob was sliding down the door, and then the door frame had water flowing up!! the frame !! so hes flipin out abit by now!! as tripin by ur self sux!! so i go to walk out the door to wash my face and as swim enterd the hall to my suprise . their was a women holding a todlers hand walking away down the hall way !!!! imean yeah hes had slight movements or shadows moving on drugs here and their but this was like close ur eyes and open and as plain as day even could remeber what she was wearing !!! and the walked down the hall and just faded into the dark !!! so swims flipin out cause swim's no stranger to drugs and swims taken enough shit to say that swims had trips that wernt that good!!! but my issue is and is a bit scarry is my eyes have gone a bit blury !! like i cant focus on anything a foot in front off me !! and its been 2 days with no ambian !! so question has any one had this happin to them??? if so how long does it last?? and yeah and its not a little blury,, its hard to evin type !!i
drugs that day wher
ssri-20mg lexapro
tramadol - 2gms (high dose but just realytolerant }
ambian-30mg
duromine -120mg
usualy spaced out through the day but the doc perscribed swim everything ,,,maybe not the dose swim was taking though , any way if any ones got the answer let me know ??
personaly i think all benzos are basicly the same ... i mean kpins last to blody long but id just go for the half life off them all and see what suits u..
