Salvia divinorum in UK parliament

[dirk]

MP's Early Day Motion on Salvia

http://www.worksoptoday.co.uk/ViewAr...icleID=1229162

BASSETLAW MP John Mann is confident of getting good support from fellow politicians following calls to ban the hallucinogenic weed Salvia.
Mr Mann put forward an Early Day Motion last Friday calling for the banning of Salvia, which the Worksop Guardian revealed last week was on sale in Worksop's town centre.
It is now being sent to MPs with various other Early Day Motions around the Commons for them to consider and then make their feelings known.
And the MP is confident he will get a lot of support from MPs – from both sides of the house.

"Although I haven't heard anything from the Government yet, I am sure a lot of MPs are going to come out against this," said Mr Mann. "Not many people had heard of it before, so they will take time to consider it, but I am sure they will come out against it. Some of the claims made about it are very bad."

"People will be shocked by this."
The drug, which has variable effects in leaf form, is more potent when extracted from the leaf. Body Alter on Bridge Street has both the leaves and extract available to buy, without any fear of legal repercussions.
Salvia, derived from the sage family of plants, contains the active ingredient salvinorin A, which yields the hallucinogenic effects. It is freely available on the internet, and can be smoked, chewed, or inhaled, and gives a short acting 'buzz'. But there are 30 minutes of after-effects which, in high doses, can cause memory loss and loss of consciousness.

Last week Mr Mann branded the shop 'irresponsible' for selling the drugs, while Patrick Kielty of Body Alter slammed the MP for waging 'black propaganda against open minded people'.
The leaves available in Worksop are the Mazatec Golden leaf, which relates to the tribe of people in Mexico who first used the drug.

21 October 2005

Note, an early day motion does not neccesarily mean that this will end in legislation, but it could certainly be picked up in the future.
so far only one other MP signed his EDM.
ANYBODY HERE LIVE NEAR WORKSOP UK???
Why not write a letter in response?

digging a little deeper, there is more indepth local news coverage, with lies on both sides
http://www.worksoptoday.co.uk/ViewAr...icleID=1222314

Legal, but this is no party drug says net
SALVIA, an hallucinogenic drug, which could make users black out and lose their memories, is available in Worksop's town centre – but it is totally LEGAL.
Salvia leaves and pre-rolled 'spliffs' are on sale in Body Alter, on Bridge Street, at a price of £5 for a five gram pack or two pounds each for a cigarette 'bifta'.
Bassetlaw MP John Mann – when alerted to the drugs by the Guardian – has labelled the leaves 'dangerous' and tabled an Early Day Motion in Westminster today to call for them to be banned.
Salvia, derived from the sage family of plants, contains the active ingredient salvinorin A, which yields the hallucinogenic effects. It is freely available on the internet, and can be smoked, chewed, or inhaled.
There are 30 minutes of after-effects which, in high doses, can cause memory loss and losing consciousness.
There are specific warnings over where and when to take the drug on the internet. Because Salvia divinorum can alter perception and behaviour, websites warn it must never be used in a public environment.
It is said that when the effects are intense, people often become immersed in a dream-like state. Sometimes people in this state will move around as if sleepwalking, and for this reason, users are advised to have a sober 'sitter' present when using strong doses – to make sure that users don't do anything dangerous. One site specifically says it is not a party drug.
Websites hail the leaves as the 'drug the government forgot to ban', while Australia have moved quickly to ban it. Denmark, Belgium, Italy, and South Korea are the only other countries that have set the wheels in motion in making salvinorin A illegal.
Spain prohibits the sale of Salvia divinorum, but not possession or use. In Finland, it is illegal to import Salvia divinorum without a relevant prescription from a doctor.
Instructions on the back of a £5 bag of Salvia say the leaf should be smoked in a pipe or 'bong' – a water pipe used for smoking.
The packet also states that smoking the leaf – nicknamed Mexican Mint or Horse Killer by users – in a joint would produce a 'mild relaxant' and that bonging the drug was 'a bit trippy'.
I visited Body Alter this week and was shown a cabinet of Salvia in its various forms, side by side with drugs paraphernalia such as pipes, bongs and Rizla papers.
I was told by the shop attendant that results were variable, but a more powerful salvia extract was being shipped next week.
John Mann called for the shop to remove the stocks and for the drug to be banned.
"I applaud the Worksop Guardian for bringing this to our attention. It's clearly something that needs exposing," he said.
"It's slipping through a gap in drugs legislation. These people who live in this airy fairy land (the websites) don't know what effect this is having on a town like Worksop.
"The shop should not be stocking it. They should be thinking more responsibly – it should be classed as a prescription drug."
"The Australians have clearly found a problem with it. There's obviously a risk in people taking it."
The leaves, purchased in Body Alter, are the Mazatec Golden leaf, which relates to the tribe of people in Mexico who first used the drug.
Legend has it that shaman used to chew the leaves slowly and the salvinorin would be absorbed directly into the body by the tissues in the mouth.
Worksop Police issued a warning to users of the drug: "We are not aware of any illegal activity taking place at Body Alter. However, we would not encourage anybody to use a substance that causes mood-altering effects," said Ch Insp Matthew McFarlane.
Patrick Kielty, who is the proprietor at Body Alter, condemned John Mann for effectively launching a vendetta against 'alternative-minded people'.
"We do sell Salvia, which is an alternative to smoking tobacco – but it's not proven to do anything, it has a placebo effect," he said.
"We do not wish to be invited into John Mann's black propaganda against open minded people."
"Why doesn't John Mann deal with real problems like heroin, or is he too afraid?"

[Prince_Charles]

I thought they only banned the good stuff. Why salvia?

[Alfa]

That's an easy one: because it's in their face. Just take a walk trough Camden or any other alternative market area. You will find many stalls on the streetswith the strongest psychedelics on earth displayed for anyone to buy. Not somewhere in the back. No as far in your face as possible. No age limit. No information. No knowledge present at all with the sometimes underage salesmen. And it's even worse; they even try to persuade people on the street to buy some amanita, san pedro, yopo, woodrose, etc. And together with the most powerful wonders of nature, they sellscam products like packs of woodrose seeds with a pic of cubensis on it and posters claiming them to be psychedelic truffles or herbal hash or herbal weed. Naming a product 'Horse Killer'? How stupid can you get? When I saw this, my anger about the mushroom ban disappeared. Of course these sacred psychedelics will get banned if companies treat them like this. The government has no other option than to ban them all. And I am pretty sure that they will. Before the mushroom ban an advise for the government was written, which gave several options. One of them was regulation of sales. This option requiered the mushroom shops to restrict sales to minors and give good information. The advise was that they did not think the mushroom stalls could do this. Now I understand where they come from.





This is the underaged cousin of the barber who ownes the barbershop the stall is in front of. Like all the people in the stalls I have spoken to, he knows nothing. This stall is just one small stall. There are many larger stalls. All trying to score a quick buck.Edited by: Alfa

[enquirewithin]

I don't see why the government has no choice but to ban all these 'herbal highs'? Has any real harm come from them? I agree that the onwers of the stalls are acting immorally/ irresponsibly, but surely regulation is possible. Regulation is always better than prohibtion.

[dirk]

Alfa, your right again, good old greed and lies screwing things up for all of us.

Before the ban they were also being sold from a "fish and chip" shop in the northeast

Before the mushroom ban an advise for the government was written, which gave several options. One of them was regulation of sales. This option requiered the mushroom shops to restrict sales to minors and give good information. The advise was that they did not think the mushroom stalls could do this. Now I understand where they come from

I think you may be refering to the advice from "Transform drugs policy foundation", which was put to the government after the process of legislation had started.

As I remember, the original "Regulatory Impact Assesment" (a document prepared by the Home Office) gave no thought to regulation of mushroom salesbecause it would "send the wrong message".

[Alfa]

Originally Posted by enquirewithin

I don't see why the government has no choice but to ban all these 'herbal highs'? Has any real harm come from them? I agree that the onwers of the stalls are acting immorally/ irresponsibly, but surely regulation is possible. Regulation is always better than prohibtion.

I can't imagine that sales like these have not already brought real harm. It is an accident waiting to happen. Ignorant passengers are asked to try hard-core psychedelics, like mescaline cacti, toxic amanita pantherina or salvia. It's presented like its some kind of herbal high. Let's say a complete newbie to psychoactivestries and while expecting a mild high the newbie is blasted away trough the universe and other dimensions. Without a guide. A good dose of mescaline cactus can send you there for over 12 hours. Amanita can give serious side effects when consumed orally, instead of smoked. Enough to check into a hospital. If the newbie just eats Woodrose seeds his/her belly may hurt like hell. Smoking a pipe of Salvia 40X while walking trough town is a survival trip. These products belong behinda counter with a well informed salesman giving infrormation and refusing sales when needed. The UKheadshop / ethno branche is clearly failing to self regulate itself to a degree where situations like this are exemptions. The branche is destroying itself. Why should a government (a restrictive entity by nature) regulate something that can not even regulate itself? It is not a bit over the line. It is way beyond what is acceptable for conservative and liberal. Therefore they have no choice but to ban it.

[Prince_Charles]

Alfa: you can make exactly the same argument about alcohol and tobacco,
which really are dangerous and yet are not banned. I don't see that
herbal highs present a serious threat to society - the occasional fool
might succumb to sales patter and overdose themselves, that is all.



The thing about governments is that they are becoming weak: the public
is wiser and more cynical about politicians, electoral turnout is
falling; following financial deregulation, governments are now too weak
to directly control their own economies. Thus, governments have little
power and little authority. The technique governments have stumbled
upon to regain authority is to manufacture a threat to protect the
public from. Thus we have the war on drugs, the war on terror, and
fighting crime. All of these threats are greatly exaggerated and the
responses wholly disproportionate.



If something presents a serious health risk to the population, it will
often be banned. Herbal highs do not present such a risk. The question
is whether a preceived threat can be manufactured by the government and
media.

[Montgolfier]

Seeing the photograph above just makes me very sad that this could be the last generation to legallyappreciate these potentially 'culture changing' plants.


I don't agree that a government has no choice but to ban, these substances don't pose any great threat to our society. All the authorities need to do is slap an outright ban on idiots like the guy in the photo selling psychedelics to kids, and make sure any products are sold to over 18's with full information.

[Alfa]

I would like to make a distinction between herbal highs (which normally relate to herbal xtc and such) and powerful psychedelics. My point is that they are not just selling herbal xtc. I couldn't care less if this was in every kiosk around the world. May even be a good thing. Alcohol and tabacco are not psychedelics, so even though they have risks it is different. Although it would be good if alcohol and tabacco would carry user information about risks and such.


Ifserious health risks would be a reason to ban something, Amanita mushrooms would have been banned, instead of psilocybe mushrooms. Highly dangerous plants likemany nightshades are not banned. I suspect that they will not get banned simply because of the health risks; because of their toxicity most users leave them alone. They primarely ban the good stuff.

[Prince_Charles]

There are 2 issues:

Firstly, actual risk to the population, so that things like heroin and cocaine are regulated. Unusual herbal preparations tend not to be
regulated for the very reason that they are unusual and tend not to present a significant risk to the population at large (deadly
nightshade etc.). Alcohol and nicotine are special cases because although relatively dangerous substances, their use has become cultural
and prohibition would be very difficult.

Secondly, the ability to manufacture a threat. This is done with all illicit drugs but is particularly striking with relaitvely innocuous
substances such as psilocybe mushrooms and cannabis.

Hallucinogenics are a special case, because the government fears the anti-authority drug culture surrounding them and perhaps also the
de-conditioning effects that they have.

[Jatelka]

Hey the UK government can't even legislate on smoking without making a complete arse of itself (witness the events of the last couple of days).How can we expect them to be progressive and realistic on this subject?

I think the root cause of our warped view of drugs in the UK is that the majority of people just don't get it: They have never taken drugs, they don't know anyone who does, and when people do say "Yes I did this" the Daily Mail decides they're unfit for public office. Just witness the furore about David ? Cameron ? Davis and his refusal to comment about whether he took drugs before he stood for Conservative party leader (sorry, can't remember which David: I'm even less interested in those Tories then any of the other jokers)

Alfa has a very good point also: Mushrooms were becoming too "in their faces", and Herbals and Salvia have gone the same way. Bear in mind that in June 2005 Elle Magazine published an article entitled "The New Cocaine?" about mushrooms. This is a respected magazine, with a large circulation, and it was hardly critical of mushroom use. Stuff like this panics Middle England, and makes them fear that they're about to be overrun with drug-crazed fiends. The government always seems to get it's knickers in a particular twist when it's young women who are being portrayed as the drug/drink crazed fiends... Or is that just my imagination?

I think we should all make it our lifes work to educate people who don't take drugs: I'm not saying convert them, coz that will never happen. Just be as open as we can be about our own drug use, and try to take some responsibility for ensuring that hysteria doesn't hold sway.

These fora go a long way towards achieving this goal: And it's wonderful to be able to speak to people who feel the same way as me, without fear of opprobium

Keep up the good work Brothers and Sisters
Much love X

[Prince_Charles]

The government and media would argue that they are educating people with the facts, i.e. that drugs a significant danger to society and
must be prohibited.
They cannot start telling the truth because to do so would highlight the whole scam. The same thing is true with the war on terror and crime
fighting.

[Alfa]

Overall theconcept of(inter)national media being factual is a contradictio in terminus.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

We are doomed to never having drug prohibition repealed. We are doomed to having every last one of those few things that are still legal for us, being also made illegal. WHY?
Because of irresponsible greedy people doing these very things (like in Alfa's photo) in the face of the public and the authorities, and on the
internet with all of them paying ever more bribes to Google to be #1 in the search engine.
And also because of all the stupid people, like some of the responses I have read in this forum, and indeed in this very thread, who can't see
anything wrong with this picture. It's a damn shame.
Some of ya'll need to grow up. And some of you who are already "growed up", need to wake the fuck up and smell the coffee. Or are we all too selfish to care if our children, or grandkids will have the same opportunities to access legal drugs like we did? I'm afraid if we all don't unite and stop acting so foolishly, it will all be over very soon indeed, and not just in the UK, but the whole world.

[unico_walker]

If they weren't suppliers for these plants how would anyone ever get to
try them?! I don't care how discrete and selective the marketing and
sales are the mere fact that they are psychoactive is what rubs people
the wrong way. Some of it does go beyond the pale, but without vendors
who would get to partake, those that fly to the damn corners of the
globe and pick it themselves?

[Unknown213]

Originally Posted by dirk

Legal, but this is no party drug says net
"The shop should not be stocking it. They should be thinking more responsibly – it should be classed as a prescription drug."
"The Australians have clearly found a problem with it. There's obviously a risk in people taking it."

If you live in the UK please god send a letter/email/ring to the relevant persons. That second quote is a blatant logical phallacy.
Also, it's funny that while Americans are supposedly stupid, I always seem to find major logical phallacies when I read about parliamentary
events from the UK...

yeah... I'm from NZ... right

[kappa]

I live in south yorkshire so I am close to north nott's. My mother works for Bassetlaw, and so knows Mr Mann from that. Furthermore, I went to the same school as his son, and got on well with him. So when I found out that he was the MP behind trying to get salvia banned, I was shocked.
The whole idea of a substance being deemed unnacceptable by a person with no experience whatsoever, and only knowledge fuelled by fear and horror stories, just does not make sense to me.
Plus, Mann's words show just how manipulative politicians can be. Basically saying that he's found a substance he doesn't like the look of, and he's playing the fact that hardly anyone else knows it to his advantage, by spoon feeding them his bias opinion as fact instead of giving them a balanced opinion. I'm all for it being restricted like alcohol and tobacco, so that only those mature enough to know its purpose can use it, but to make it illegal and therefore unnacceptable? It's an outright disgrace.
I've been reading down the other comments on this post, and it's good to see there are more people with common sense.