Quantum Physics in relation to psychedels

[pinkfloyd2048]

<DIV>


If there is one thing that I have experienced in science, it would be a very bold and daring statement: Certainty is dead. This statement draws from the principles of random error (normal distributions) and most importantly, for me, the quantum mechanics behind the electron. The electron is very fascinating subatomic particle in that the more is known about a electron's energy, the less is known about the its position at any given time. Therefore, the electron is described as a wave-function where a definite energy is known, but a boundary of 90-95% for the given area an electron can occupy is described as a shape (s, p, d, f; sphere, doorknob, double (sharper) doorknob along 1 axis, and two double (sharp) doorknobs along two axis'). Even though the electron is viewed as having a wave-like property, as described by Newton in experiments with light, the electron is a particle as described in the early 20th century by Einstein's Photoelectric effect, for it has a definite mass and charge.


So, the electron is viewed as being both a particle and a wave, a duality of physical states. I view hallucinogens the same way in that the experience can be described as flowing (wave-like) through time with continuous memory of the events and perception brought on by the chemical in question. Also, the experience can be described as choppy (particle-like)or sprits of time which is non-continuous and only certain events and perceptions are remembered.


To draw an example, psilocybin (magic mushrooms) produces a wave-like alteration of perception. Psilocybin produces visuals that are expansive (i.e. looking at an object and breathing will cause it to expand) and time flows quickly (in respect to LSD). The particle-like nature is best described by LSD which produces visuals that are surreal, not fully rendered, with a touch of wave-like property. Time also seems to go more slowly with LSD as compared to other hallucinogens.


Psychoactive chemicals, all inclusive, can be expressed in terms of wave and particle duality of perception.</DIV>

[daeron]

hmm i really disagree w that. that really a bad comparison IMO.


the current theory isnt final,but atm everything is particle and wave. you too,only your wave lenght isnt detectable...its hard for me to accept such a metaphor,since in order to do that i must see psycodelics as spiritual concept,which i dont


no for me psychodelics are more like hmm well like computer viruses or maybe rare illnesses. using them we learn more and more about the complex machine we call our brain/mind.


been reading schroedinger i see

[ambrosius]

One theory I've heard (though I'm not quite sure about, but makes for interesting conversation) is that those little squiggly things you see when you look at the sky become a perceived part of a fractal. The brain, being more mathematical than we are consciously aware of (ie parabola calculation when we catch something) sees these and makes an equasion out of them.


Like I said, I doubt this is true and don't support it, but it was an interesting theory, nonetheless.

[polloloco001]

i dont understand whatsoever what the patterns of electron movement in
an atom have to do with psychedelics. i have never had a trip that was
both particle like and wave like. in fact i have no idea what that
means. from what i gather from reading your post youre not saying
anything about actual quantum physics and its relation to the
psychedelic experience but rather some kind of metaphoric word play off
of the words "particle" and "wave" which you believe perfectly describe
a mushroom trip. youre making a leap between science and philosophy
which frankly doesnt make much sense.

[ambrosius]

Psychedelics seem to have that side effect.


Pulling something out of nothing.


Why else would a bassit hound sitting down be so hilarious?


(Insert more babble here)


I'll be quiet now.

[pinkfloyd2048]

I support your criticism even though it is negative. I put this out there because I know that everyone's perception is different, and by sharing experiences and beliefs the usage of hallucinogens in either recreation or medicinal use can be expanded. Personally, I see great potential in the medicinal properties of many hallucinogens including LSD and psilocybin, primarily. But, from from what I have observed, the relation between the principles of physics and chemistry are the foundation for my perception.

[Solidly-here]

Quantum Theory is great at the Atomic level. But I live in the Real world.


For most of my life, I have NOT cared too much about trying to know exactly where the Electrons of the atoms in my body are located at any particular instant. I am just happy that Certainty is NOT dead; I do know that (somehow) all of the atoms of my body have come together in one place, and I am the living result of that.


I believe that some things are certain. Unfortunately (for me and this Post) I am Notan Enlightened being, so Idon't know what they all are. I try to spend most of my time being satisfied with my very-limited knowledge about life (and what it means).


Sometimes I can push my mind further, into the realm of Ultimate Truth (naturally, or with psychedelics). But, even then, when that powerful thought has passed, most of the Insight (or at least most of its clarity) passes away too. I am left with just having memories of the fact that (once) I DID see that particular Ultimate Truth. If I am lucky, from time-to-time I can feel most of that clarity for a few seconds.


So in this sense, certainty is dead (again): I didn't have certainty ... BAM, I have certainty ... Wow! I had certainty ... Hmm, I think I had certainty ... Gee, did I have certainty? The opinion of one, confused, mostly un-certain human being.Edited by: Solidly-here

[circsee1]

Yes, quantum mechanics certainly has no relation whatsoever to an LSD or mushroom trip. However, your analogy of being able to experience the complete nature of something while tripping does make sense (complete relative to our normal perceptions). I think thats what draws so many people to tripping; we are able to experience something which normally would be impossible (unless very good at meditation) and, in doing so, we are able further our understanding of our relationship between ourselves and our external environment. Experience, of any type, helps us grow and understand just a little bit and something as bizarre as tripping, for many people it is bizarre allows for a very intense and often life changing experience. However, being shot at, hit by a car, or falling off a bridge could also do the trick. Sorry this is so incoherent.

[circsee1]

Whatmedicinal purposes do you believe hallucinogens could play a role in? I think that is a very interesting topic.

[raven3davis]

I read somewhere about how quantum physics relates to tripping. Im sure someone could pull up a link. The relationship it described related to different chemicals of the same family and the differences in effects. For example, 2c-h and 2c-e. You change one atom and it becomes active, very active. Then you can even go to 2c-i, and 2c-b. The location of the bromine and iodine atom are the same and the rest of the chemical is the same, but the different atoms can cause completely different trips. It seems to me like shomehow certain chemicals enable your brain to connect to a certain wavelegnth via different particles. Maybe on 2c-i you can experience the complete nature of the iodine particles and on 2c-b you are experiencing the bromine particles. While sober our brain asjusts in a way that we arent overwealmed by the always present particles that would be extremely distracting. Certain chemicals connect you to existing frequencies and enable to percieve life in a different way, with an overwealming bromine presence or an overwealming iodine presence, etc. Im just talkin out my ass too I have no clue what im talking about, but this stuff interests me.

[the blue letter]

Bromine Vs Iodine is simple medicinal chemistry. The Iodine is a lot
bigger its heavier drags around in the brain longer. If bulkier
and probobly changers the molecules conformation. Might not fit as well
in the enzyme stick around longer. 2cB being lighter might be quicker
to flood the brain and be more visual. None of that is quantum
mechanics.

Noting the origional post is isnt Einsteins PhotoElectric Effect the
photoelectric effect had been noticed way before its just relativity
did a good job of explaining it. Also your eyes precieve light
and thats why you see. Light is just photons. Photons are quantumn
particles. How you precieve photons could certinly be altered by
the drugs your taking

[anj0vis]

My view of psychedelics are very much like daeron's. Our brains is a sophisticated and very complex machine, perfected by evolution to do certain tasks using some tools that happened to evolve for this purpose. Some of the tools are chemical tools, substances taking information around our body and especially our brains, signalling some phenomena of outside world or our physical body to deal with properly. Dopamine, anandamide, glycine, gaba and numerous other neurotransmitters are just one part of the machine, to take care of our historical task of hunting food for our families and finding a mate. Seroronin is one part of this machine, very important one though but still. Psychedelics simply mimic serotonin, they bind to same receptors but give out very different signals. This seemingly small change, it is only one neurotransmitter out of dozens, makes a drastic change in our consciousness. This brings me to the source of the most fascinating point of psychedelics. Why they make exactly those changes? How our consciousness is built from this mess of electronic signals, neurotransmitters and hormones? Psychedelics could help solve this problem and along the way they provide the most extraordinary experiences I have the pleasure to go through in this short life. For an atheist like me, psychedelics are very essential for my life, they enrich it exponentially so that I can get more from my short visit to earth than I could without them. Arts and music mean more to me now than they ever did before the first trip. I am anxious to know what makes our minds tick (beyond what evolutionary psychology tells us) and psychedelics are, at the moment, one of the best ways to do it.

[dclacomb]

Have any of you ever read the work of Michio Kaku? He is the Japanese Einstein, more or less. His book Hyperspace</span>
goes into detail about superstring theory and how our universe consists
of more than the 3 spatial dimensions we occupy and perceive. I
think Kaku settled on the number 10, something about it being the only
mathematically possible amount of dimensions.



Anyway, a 3 dimensional being is capable of simultaneously perceiving
an entire 2 dimensional universe. If you were to look at a
drawing, you would be able to see everything within that drawing at the
same time since your consciousness is an order of magnitude greater
than what is required to perceive the paper. This would also hold
true for a 4 dimensional being. A 4D being could simultaneous
perceive an entire 3D universe. In essence, a 3D universe would
be "flat" to a 4D being.

<br style="font-style: italic;">
All that having been said</span>,
under the influence of psychedelics it has been possible for me to
perceive more than one visual persective at the same time even though
there is no way my 3D body could have been in both places at
once. Let me try to explain this. If I were looking at your
face, I would not only see your face straight on, but also from a
completely different angle, at the same time. Imagine you are in
the middle of a circle, and I take a picture of you at 0 degrees.
I then walk to 45 degrees, and take another picutre of you, with the
same peice of film. Both images of your face at each degree would
be in the same image. Two perspectives in one.



This isn't true 4D processing because one would see EVERY perspective
not just 2 or a few. It is however beyond the 3D processing that
our brains are capable of. I am a firm believer in physics, but I
believe there is something going on here that we are not aware of yet,
at least.


Edited by: dclacomb

[daeron]

well friends heres how i see it:


we humans as a race have a limited time on our hands, and we want to find out as much as we can regarding the nature of the universe.


now on the other hand our learning curve is an exponential one. that means that if we would observe the knowledge in % the distance between 60 an 90% is maybe a couple of hundred of years but between 91 and 92 may be a couple of thousands, even million yrs.


having said that i am confident that we are somewhere between80 and 90%, and now we are begining to realize how much we dont know, who was that whom expressed it as circles of ignorance? if a straight line is the amount of your current knowledge than the amount of your ignorance is the length of the circle that can be created using the straight line as the circle radius.


the more we know the less we know.


or to put it in other words, for the example of the human-brain relationship the following analogy i often like to use:


Humanswith their brains are like a caveman with a supercomputer. Yes there is a chance that the caveman will use it to calculate the trajectories and the momentums of the celestial bodies, but the chances are that he will just crack open a coconut with it.


point? we dont know how to use our brains. and one of the rare things that gives the tremendous insight in its magic are the psychodelics, which in turn are demonised and outlawed. yes lets crack open an another coconut, shall we?Edited by: daeron

[ambrosius]

Well said, my friend. Well said.


I don't think I could have put it any better.

[emineo]

Does...n O t... c-c-c-C-c-ooooooo-mPuTe..TE..tEeee

More LSD please!

IWANTOUT!

[IHrtHalucingens]

ive read some interesting theories on wavelength, dimensions, and psychodelics. we live in a dimension that percieves only certain wavelengths of beings, so we only interact wiht beings of the same wavelength, however in the same space we occupy there is another dimension, but htose beings are on wavelengths we cannot percieve so we dont know they are there, so there could be a tree or something in another dimension existing on a different wavelength falling on u right now but u dont know it because u cannot percieve its wavelengths. it is thought that hallucinogens allow our brain to function on a slightly different wavelength and catch glimpses of these other dimensions leading to hallucinations and/or distortions in senses. i dont know if its true or not, how would ne one really know, but it sounds interesting to me.

this is best compared to i guess a dog whistle, we cannot hear the noise made by it, but that doesnt mean its not there, and the dog can hear it. Same principle i would say.

[Silence_Inc]

yes, i follow that ''the more we know - the less we know'' ... although brain-information has it's own value in it's own dimension or situation.

anyway - quantum phisics and psychedelics ... the comparison.

quantum phisics discribes itself as - thinking about what can't be thought about - quantum phisics isn't just defining - it's is defining - and at the same moment being aware that you'll never ever define it right - because it is so ''out of this world theories'' ... so quantum phisics is philosophy in fisics ... not really sience - more like - thinking about strange stuff in the atom world.

well - psychedelics do the same - you start thinking (just like we do here) and making al sorts of definitions (just like we do here) ... while at the same time ... our definition will NEVER EVER TOTALLY grasp what it is trying to define ... i think - that quantum phisics and psychedlics behold the same message ... or lesson ... "stop thinking about it" ... it doesn't matter. and when thought stops - reality shows itself.

but that's just thoughts!

edit: btw - i think that everything in life holds this message "stop defining me - experience me truly" ... but we keep defining it - giving it names and experiencing only the image we have of it in our head ... .the mind is powerfull.

[Alfa]

Looking back at science troughout time, 90% of scientific facts known, will be proven not true in the next millenium. And by the looks of it things are speeding up. Reality is a variable. Either by definition or by the change of our perception of reality.

[daeron]

but the thing is that nobody is saying there true, they are just working models. and in the future well have better working models.mind you these "models" we have (quantum theory, dualistic nature of substances,thermodynamics, and fluid dynamics) work for more than 95% cases applied. and for the remaining 5 or so % we have black box models and statistics,now dont we.

humans are engineers by nature. the difference between an engineer and a scientist is that while a scientist wants to figure out how things work an engineer/human wants to make them work

[Silence_Inc]

Daeron... .

yes indeed ... but so what are we doing - talking and thinking our life away? (damn right - us fools) ...

i mean - you say that we now have models - and in the future w'll have better models ... but what will it change at the core? a better understanding? maybe yes - on a certain level - but is it a ''true-knowing?'' I mean - it's like with people - you meet someone - and you think '' this dude is nice - i like him'' - after years you have more situations and you come to ''know'' him better (or atleast you make more models upon this life-form - more ideas, more reflections, ... ) ... but will it truly make you UNDERSTAND this person or being more? - no - you'll just have the IDEA in your head that you KNOW this person better ... while - what is REALLY happening is the eccact opposite ... the more models, the more ideas - the greater the illusion ... and less direct experience - more knowledge - less experience... and than we come again - the more you know - the less you know ...

but offcourse this doesn't apply on the complete story ... this is the spiritual side of stuff ... while the social dimension needs us to make judgements - so in a way ... it's not bad or so that we have all these models ... i think like Alfa says ... we are becoming aware ... we are the ever evolving universe - expressed into a carbon based lifeform - that is becoming aware of itself ... the universe has got trillions of eyes and sensors - and humans or a person is one of those sensors ... and these sensors give info and experience information ... and as a person we create - so we are the universe that is creating ... there is no future - it is NOW that the universe feels and sees and experiences itself - and through our needs - we create our future and the future of this little place in the solar system - right here and now.

(damn - we should stop taking drugs ! lol)

[anj0vis]

Models of the world is the best we can do. If some model predict the future behaviour better than other models, it is the best information we can have about that particular phenomenon at this time. This is an old philosophical question, we have no complete proof that our world is this or that. Everything is just based on the common observations that different people make. You see that apple falling on the ground and I see it, so we make a model of gravitation that will predict falling of other apples from trees and we agree on that. The reason why those apples fall is not there. We might be a simulation of super complex machine some place we cannot comprehend, we might be a dream of a complex being taking a nap in another universe, we might be a collection of small waves interacting. Nobody knows. Sure, psychedelics offer interesting experiences and glimpses of "other places", but they are propably just tricks of a complex machine called brain. It COULD be a glimpse of some other reality, some other place that has laws and reasons just as this world, but there is no way of knowing. I use Occrams Razor to deduce that the simplest possible model out of all models fitting these observations is propably the right one. Occrams razor is still just a philosophical point, judge yourselves.

[dmax]

I really wanted to say some things, but I just feel like it's pointless. I study physics at kolledge, and I'm fairly sure that psychedelics have very little to do with quantum mechanics. Well, ok, the molecules likely follow the rules of quantum mechanics to whatever degree we actually are correct in the theory of quantum mechanics, but they aren't "connecting" you in any way to a more basic level of universe, they're just making your brain flip out. Too many extra or too few neurotransmitters hanging around causing messages to travel through your brain differently or wrong. Nevermind, I'm going to end up talking in circles.

A for them "science is just a model" people, is there a difference between a perfect model and the real thing? I don't know. I don't discount the idea that a perfect model could exist, but I bet the tools to model something like the universe aren't something we can come up with with such a tiny subset of the universe to work with.