hi, i have been on subutex for about a year and a half and i want to get off them now. i am on about 2ml a day and tried to do my rattle before but only lasted 5day because i had to go 2 college and i had noooo sleep! my doctor wont prescribe ma any sleeping tablets but does anyone have any advice on what sleeping tablets worked for them. that is the only withdrwals that i cannot handle really. also is there any sucess storys with subutex addiction, that could cheer me up and motivate me to do it
Last edited by Dickon; 09-02-2010 at 17:51.
Reason: self incrimination (H) and better title (D) [Two mod edits for the price of one!]
If you mean 2mg, that is still a relatively high amount to jump off at. SWIM did not sleep for 7 days straight coming off 2mgs of suboxone (basically same thing as subutex, except with naloxone which is inactive if you don't abuse it), and couldn't sleep more than a couple hours a night for 2 weeks after that.
You are going to want to get below .2 mgs (that's, .2 mgs), if you don't want to have horrible insomnia coming off of them. You should slowly taper down to that amount before trying to come off it.
Also, since you have been on subutex for so long, I hate to break the news to you but the withdrawals are going to be very long. At least 2-3 weeks if you are lucky. They won't be severe, but you will likely be very tired, achy, restless, bored, depressed, and feeling like shit for about a month.
If SWIY can't deal with that, the only options SWIM knows to circumvent experiencing the super long term withdrawals are to switch back to a fast acting opiate like codeine for a couple weeks and then either taper off that, or switch back to subutex and do a fast 1-2 week taper. Or, manage the withdrawals for the month using clonodine and ADHD drugs (ritalin, adderall, etc.), which will have you feeling 95% okay. These are the only two options SWIM knows / has heard of to avoid the month long, long term suboxone withdrawals.
SWIM is in pretty much full agreement with this. He tapered his subutex to 0.4mg - half in the morning and half in the evening. He had been taking subutex for 18 months by this stage and had just about had enough of the ultra-long half life. He switched to 60mg of codeine a day and it was such a relief. After about 6 weeks he stopped the codeine and there weren't really any consequenses.
SWIM started the codeine again after about 6 months, but that's another story.
SWIM thinks it's often better not to take any strong drugs when rattling because they may cause a hangover that there is a temptation to fix with opiates. This is easy for SWIM to say though, because he no longer likes any drugs except opiates. Having said that the old "round and blue" help if you can stomach the nasty chemical buzzzz. Alkies are often prescribed them.
Last edited by Dickon; 09-02-2010 at 17:53.
Reason: Another case of quoting a whole post. When will it end????
thanks for your replys. i have been given diazipam by one of my m8s and think i will try these c if they get me 2 sleep. but the codine sounds good to. but my doctor wont prescibe me anything!! its annoying!
SWIM started the codeine again after about 6 months, but that's another story. -
can the swimmer who wrote this plz tell me a bit more about this codine...did SWIM get addicted to them...if so what was the rattle like off them? and if so how long did it last? thanks x
Last edited by Dickon; 08-02-2010 at 15:12.
Reason: swim
If you're on 2mg a day and want off then you're going to have to taper down further (0.4mg or 0.2mg) and then jump off. You could come off now at 2mg but it's not advisable as the w/d will be a lot worse (take it from SWIM)
I take it SWIY is from the UK? SWIM too. Who is prescribing the Subutex, doctor or drugs clinic? Either one of these should know that you don't just jump off at 2mg. They need to get SWIY down to 0.4 or 0.2mgs first and then off. Is this possible? It should be if they're doing things properly.
SWIMS drugs clinic is prescribing Methadone to SWIM and reduces the dose over a period of months (when they feel ready. This is how it should be done. Then once SWIM gets to their lowest dose of Methadone they give SWIM Lofexidine, 2mg Valium and Nitrazepam to help with the w/d. Why won't SWIYS doctor prescribe any of these? Mind you, SWIY won't need any of these until they're on their last dose of Subutex (0.4 or 0.2mg) and ready to jump off. Though once SWIY is there they should be able to get their hands on these to help with the final withdrawals. I wonder why SWIY doctor won't prescribe? Is it possible to get with the local drug & alcohol clinic? They always seem better equipped to deal with these things and seem to help more (more sympathy I reckon).
Good Luck. Try to get down as low as SWIY can go on the Subutex before jumping off. If SWIY does this they won't feel the w/d half as much. In fact it should be practically pain free, especially if you can get any benzos (the drugs I've mentioned above) to help too.
SWIMS drugs clinic is prescribing Methadone to SWIM and reduces the dose over a period of months (when they feel ready. This is how it should be done. Then once SWIM gets to their lowest dose of Methadone they give SWIM Lofexidine, 2mg Valium and Nitrazepam to help with the w/d. Why won't SWIYS doctor prescribe any of these?
I'm surprised to hear that your drugs clinic is prescribing nitrazepam (Mogadon) for opiate withdrawal, it's a bit of a breeze block of a drug in swim's opinion. One must be very careful using nitrazepam (as with any any other benzos) to aid an opiate withdrawal, please ensure you are not suddenly going to decide "fuck it" and go out and score after taking the benzos, as mixing these with opiates can be deadly.
Nitrazepam has far more more pronounced impairment of motor skills than diazepam. One must remember that all benzodiazepines are physically addictive, and that tolerance and dependence develops with continued use. Tolerance and dependence builds up quicker with nitrazepam than diazepam, the former is recommended to be used for no longer than a few days, the latter can be used for longer without withdrawal occurring.
Again, I'm surprised to hear of it being used for opiate detox purposes, especially used in combination with another benzo. The relatively low dose of diazepam you report (2mg) makes me wonder why they don't just give a higher (but still normal) diazepam dose (10mg), instead of combining with nitrazepam?
SWIM should of worded her post better. SWIMS drug & alcohol clinic only prescribe the Lofexidine, Valium 2mgs and Nitrazepam when they've come off their Methadone or Subutex (not while they're still on it). They basically give these to you the day after you've come off the Subs or Meth all together to help with the w/d.
Also, they only give you a weeks worth of 2mg Valium (they won't give out the 5mg or 10mg) and a weeks worth of Nitrazepam which you take at night for sleep. The reason they only give SWIM a weeks worth is so they don't get addicted. SWIM once asked for another weeks worth but they wouldn't do it.
As for the Lofexidine, again it's a weeks worth but if you do need more they will call you in, take you blood pressure and if everything is OK they will give you another weeks worth. They don't do this with the benzos though.
SWIM has had these "rattle packs" as they're called on many occasions when coming off of Subutex and Methadone and they're a Gods send. Makes the difference between awful w/d and very manageable w/d.
Also, they do NOT give out Valium or Nitrazepam to those patients who have a history of benzo or alcohol abuse. Even if it is only a weeks, supervised script. They just won't do it. SWIM doesn't have a history of this kind of drug or alcohol abuse so all has been OK for them in the past.
So yeah, SWIM knows what you're saying but it's all monitored and looked into very carefully before being prescribed
Last edited by Dickon; 08-02-2010 at 15:13.
Reason: Quoting whole post
I've found zopiclone good for sleep. It's fairly easy to get in the UK, and if you can't get a prescription there are a few internet sites that sell it.
Unlike benzos, it's not classified under the misuse of drugs act, so no legal problems for possession without a prescription, and it's cheaper than benzos as well.
Although it's not a benzo, it targets the same receptors, so it will probably have the same problems as benzos do in combination with other CNS depressants.
I've never used it to cope with w/d though, so I'm not sure how effective it is in this situation.
A good med to help with sleep only, is seroquil or ambien, personally swim doesn't know how much he would recommend these for help with withdraws, but in his personal experience they have really helped with his insomnia, with seroquil they knock you the fuck out, but that's what you're looking for, correct? just make sure that after swiy takes it, that he wont be moving very much because they kick in really fast and if swiy tries to walk once the effects take hold, swiy could really hurt yourself, swim had to walk 20 yards back to his bed and ran into 2 door frames and almost fell down the steps. Ambien is pretty much the same thing, except it doesn't build up a tolerance as fast, they make seroquils in 50's all the way up to 500 mg pills...so that should speak volumes in itself. Swim felt a noticeable drowsiness for a few hours after waking up from seroquil, and that was after a good 8-12 hour sleep. Ambien not so much, but still a little bit. Swim also wouldn't recommend using these as long term aids, because after only about 2 weeks of using them, he felt it very hard to fall asleep without taking them, placebo or not, still kind of disheartening. Swim knows how bad not sleeping is, esp when going through withdraws...so he wishes swiy the very best of luck
