Did research..no anwsers

[FloaterGirl]

Hi guys.. I am new here. I am not new to eating beans tho! My husband and I got to where we were eating 5-10 pills a weekend a peice every weekend. So we stopped for 8 whole long months. His birthday was Sept 10..so I got a 10 pack of some thick ass pills. Well about an hour after the first on i was peaking, by the time I took the third one I was gone!!! I barley remember taking the last two. Equaling me out to five..I know I know...after the 3rd one I should have stopped. After the 3rd one my husbands eye lashing were dancing and things were breathing at me..rolf..i had never tripped this hard of E. (or whatever it was in the pill) that part was fine..only thing is...I blacked out a few times. I cant really explain it..i just kinda closed my eyes and went out kinda like sleeping but not..but when i would come back (in like 2 secs) I was talking gibberish. Like the end of a sentence. For example,(I work with work order numbers all day at work...) I was sitting on the couch and when I came back from theblack out I was mummbling of a number. Please help. I guess I just want to know if anyone has ever expeierced this? Also my husband said I was reaching out for things in the air..that obviously were not there. I dont remember that at all...thanks guys!!! Edited by: FloaterGirl

[Nagognog2]

You are describing a toxic effect. Might I suggest you not do this to yourself? You can cause serious harm to your body. Serotonin syndrome is not pretty or fun.

[FloaterGirl]

Could you tell me more about the toxic affect..are you saying I OD'ed? Eleborate please. Serotonin syndrome??? What is that. Good suggegtion. Like I said before I was a heavy user and 5 pills was no big deal. I am not used to having so much tolerance. I will definietly be way more careful...is there somewhere I can learn more on Serotonin Syndrome..thanks for all your help

[MrJim]

Here you go


"The serotonin syndrome is a hypersotonergic state which is a very dangerous and a potentially fatal side effect of serotonergic enhancing drugs which can have multiple psychiatric and non-psychiatric symptoms. It is a condition which has been on the rise since the 1960's when we began using more and more drugs which directly affect serotonin. This is a toxic condition which requires heightened clinical awareness in order to prevent, recognize, and treat the condition promptly. Promptness is vital because, as we just mentioned, the serotonin syndrome can be fatal and death from this side effect can come very rapidly. This syndrome is a toxic hyperserotonergic state whose rate of incidence is unknown, but is on the rise. The suspected cause of that increase is the introduction of the new selective serotonergic enhancing agents in clinical practice - the SSRIs. This disorder, brought on by excessive levels of serotonin, is difficult to distinguish from the neuroleptic malignant syndrome because the symptoms are so similar. The neuroleptic malignant syndrome is a serious condition brought on by the use of the neuroleptic drugs.

"The symptoms of the serotonin syndrome are: euphoria, drowsiness, sustained rapid eye movement, overreaction of the reflexes, rapid muscle contraction and relaxation in the ankle causing abnormal movements of the foot, clumsiness, restlessness, feeling drunk and dizzy, muscle contraction and relaxation in the jaw, sweating, intoxication, muscle twitching, rigidity, high body temperature, mental status changes were frequent (including confusion and hypomania - a "happy drunk" state), shivering, diarrhea, loss of consciousness and death. (The Serotonin Syndrome, AM J PSYCHIATRY, June 1991)

"The serotonin syndrome is generally caused by a combination of two or more drugs, one of which is often a selective sertonergic medication. The drugs which we know most frequently contribute to this condition are the combining of MAOIs with Prozac (this should also include the other SSRIs) or other drugs that have a powerful effect upon serotonin, ie, clomipramine (Anafranil), trazadone (Deseryl), etc. The combination of lithium with these selective serotonergic agents has been implicated in enhancing the serotonin syndrome. The tricyclic antidepressants, lithium, MAOIs, SSRIs, ECT (electric shock treatment), tryptophan, and the serotonin agonists (fenfluramine) all enhance serotonin neurotransmission and can contribute to this syndrome. Anything which will raise the level of serotonin can bring on this hyperserotonergic condition. The optimal treatment for the serotonin syndrome is discontinuation of the offending medication or medications, offer supportive measures, and wait for the symptoms to resolve. If the offending medication is discontinued, the condition will often resolve on its own within a 24 hour period. If the medication is not discontinued the condition can progress rapidly to a more serious state and become fatal. It should be apparent that the greater the enhancement of serotonin levels, the greater the chances of producing the serotonin syndrome. Therefore it is recommended that Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, Luvox, Serzone, etc. not be used concurrently with each other or any other serotonergic drugs and that these serious adverse reactions should be expected with these combinations (Callahan, 1993). (PROZAC: PANACEA OR PANDORA?, p. 88)"

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good info on Seretonin syndrome

[FloaterGirl]

thanks for the info..only this is I dont take SSRIs. I never have...so how could this be the same thing? If I am reading this info right...this is something that can still be happening to me now? This syndrome is a toxic hyperserotonergic state whose rate of incidence is unknown, but is on the rise.


I am a little confused? Should I be worried?

[MrJim]

It says that it is a pharmacological combination of 2 or more drugs - often an SSRI but not always. Noone can tell you whether this is you through a forum... One thing you can be sure of -Most E pills sold on the street have more than just Mdma in them.

[quinone]

You wont find many published or reputable papers relating MDMA to
serotonin syndrome mostly because MDMA is ILLEGAL (thus no scientific
research laboratory can study the pharmacological effects of MDMA on
humans). It is very reasonable to conclude though that since MDMA
and SSRIs share a synergistic biochemical relationship that any
side-effect of SSRIs might very well be seen with MDMA. Not to
mention that in its own right MDMA is an SSRI (selective serotonin
reuptake inhibitor), because once it has bound to serotonin receptors
to cause its release MDMA subsequently remains bound for sometime and
inhibits the reuptake of serotonin (otherwise the serotonin would
simply flow back in across the concentration gradient and you wouldnt
be high for more then like 5 minutes).



Furthermore, since MDMA is directly related to the release of somewhat
'unnatural' or 'unequilibriated' quantities of serotonin and since
serotonin is a syndome of 'hypersotonergicity' its very easy to see
that abuse of MDMA might easily cause this syndrome. Moral of the
story, do what you want to your body, but if you are concerned enough
about your usage habits with a drug to post those concerns on a drug
forum, you should probably listen to your concerns and cut back.

[FloaterGirl]

You are right and I definitly agree about cutting back. I am concerned about the effects short term and long term that could have been brought on the last time I rolled. I have rolled many many times in the past years, and never had anything as drastic as this happen. I am not sure what it was..I got out of control before I realized it. I know when to stop normally..and this time I was to far gone to realize it was time. Thanks for your help...I am not sure if Serotonin syndrome is the anwser..or not but I do know that I take 5 htp every day, and have for over a year for the natual anxiety med in it. I supose that maybe that has something to do with the blackouts? Thanks for your help.

[hpierce301]

did the same thing after drinking a lot of jack daniels,


shake it off, don't worry about it


seriously though, it should be a warning to be careful and build your tolerance back up, not just pick up where you left off.


be safe.

[quinone]

The 5-HTP could DEFINITELY account for your symptoms. 5-HTP is
5-Hydroxytryptophan, it is the direct precursor for serotonin (5-HT or
5-Hydroxytryptamine). Those depression/anxiety symptoms caused by
a lack of serotonin MAY (I stess MAY) be due to an inefficient
hydroxylase tryptophan meaning less 5-HTP meaning less serotonin.
Most anti-depressants work by allowing the lower amount of serotonin
present ot be more effective. 5-HTP supplementation eliminates
the faulty enzyme altogether by directly providing the neurological
metabolic pathways with the 5-HTP precursor directly (instead of the
tryptophan from the diet that would need to be converted to 5-HTP
through tryptophan hydroxylase). Anyways, IF you do not have a
faulty tryptophan hydroxylase taking regular 5-HTP supplements will
lead to an increased serotonin production (which can normally be kept
at bay due to numerous biological 'checkpoints').



http://www.unifr.ch/biochem/DREYER/N...smitters/serot onine.htm



When you take MDMA though you remove ALL these checkpoints and a
complete influx of serotonin from inside the neurons to the synaptic
cleft is seen. So you may have had TONNES of Serotonin stored in
your synapses and taking the MDMA just let it all out at once.
Having not taken MDMA for 8 months also precipitated this
problem. So these symptoms you speak of are probably due to an
immense amount of serotonin release. This in itself is kinda
worrisome, its that kind of suddent serotonin influx that can lead to
serotonin syndrom. Since its next to impossible for anyone to
diagnose any long term effects from your experience (and since you
would see the short term effects now), there probably is no sense in
worrying. But IMHO I wouldnt mix MDMA with a regular regiment of
5-HTP (or any anti-depressant for that matter). Your brain
operates in a very precise and miracoulously elegant state of harmony
and equilibrium, and is remarkably adept at dealing with deviations
from this equilibrium, but there is a limit to what it can do ... so
just be careful .






Edited by: quinone

[FloaterGirl]

Thanks so much for all the info and advice...SO I gather from all this that because i had so much serotonin in my synapses, I had that much more to release, causing it to toxic. Therefore my brain causes me to shut down (black out) because it is overwhelmed. . Obviously I should not be taking 5htp everyday...bc it is building excessive amounts of serotonin that could be dangerous with or with out mdma?

[quinone]

well, I dont think theres anything wrong with takign 5-HTP every day,
like I said your brain has checks and balances to deal with it.
Its only when you add MDMA to the equatin that things go wrong.
So what im saying is you should probably choose between the 5-HTP or
MDMA, or to at the very least stop 5-HTP a month or so before rolling
(if this is possible).

[Mace]

Interesting point you make quinone. I have rolled about 6 times in about 30 days. I now take 5-htp daily, and I take the instructed dosage. The people at the healthfood store where I bought it said it would be fine to take as a daily supplement. So taking MDMA while on 5-htp should make your roll even harder, due to the fact that you have increased serotonin levels. The MDMA uses up your serotonin, and the 5-htp brings it back faster than your body normally would.

[Tony Blair]

Most people report that 5-htp up to 36 hours beforehand can dull the effect of MDMA considerably. Myself included.



Other than that, sounds a little more like MDA than MDMA, perhaps.

[Cure20]

SWIM experenced something like that with a friend and never thought it to be that serious. SWIM just thought that person was tripping out. It was close to our 4th pill of the night and she was lying on the couch while we were listening to music and she would close her eyes for a bit, when she woke up she was saying shit that had to do with her job eg. "That would be $7.99 please."


SWIM thought it was funny but after reading all this I feel a bit concerned about my friend even though it happend about a year ago.


Well I guess it goes to show ya - No question shall be left unanwsered!

[FloaterGirl]

you are right..it does sound more like mda..and Im sure it was more mda than mdma. i am still confused on the whole 5 htp thing...I feel dont want to risk releasing dangurous amounts of serotonin while rolling. I normally dont question alot of things that happen when Im rolling...but this time was diffrent. I was incohenrent and it scared me. I supose because i have eaten many many pills and never had it happen before. thank you for all your help!!!!!!!

[Chaote]

is it unheard of to have LSD in pills? because im just thinking this sounds likie an LSD experience i had (the babblling art least) or possibly a deliriant/dissociative mixed with a hallucinogen of some sort.? these are just some less negative thoughts that came to mind but its quite possible im completelky wrong. Im just trying to say theres a possibilty its not a harmful or as harmful as it was stated before, but i could be wrong

[Boyv]

Originally Posted by nagognog2

You are describing a toxic effect. Might I suggest you not do this to yourself? You can cause serious harm to your body. Serotonin syndrome is not pretty or fun.

The serotonine syndrom only accures when a massive load of serotonine is stuck, it can't be just by mdma alone. Most of the time this happens because the user is also using SSRI's, MAOI's or medicines which are alike and affect your serotonine regulation or uptake.

Originally Posted by FloaterGirl

Thanks so much for all the info and advice...SO I gather from all this that because i had so much serotonin in my synapses, I had that much more to release, causing it to toxic. Therefore my brain causes me to shut down (black out) because it is overwhelmed. . Obviously I should not be taking 5htp everyday...bc it is building excessive amounts of serotonin that could be dangerous with or with out mdma?

Hmm no, pre- and postloaders are good, but it just depends on the stuff that is inside of them. Some of these loaders also contain MAOI's, that's dangerous. Check the ingredients for this. MAOI's combined with mdma can also cause the serotonine syndrom.

Originally Posted by Mace

Interesting point you make quinone. I have rolled about 6 times in about 30 days. I now take 5-htp daily, and I take the instructed dosage. The people at the healthfood store where I bought it said it would be fine to take as a daily supplement. So taking MDMA while on 5-htp should make your roll even harder, due to the fact that you have increased serotonin levels. The MDMA uses up your serotonin, and the 5-htp brings it back faster than your body normally would.

Still, the necessary time for your body to 'reload' for a next trip would be longer than a month, two months are suggested. Also, if you are short on vitamines, the 5-htp won't work correct, it will also change into the needed vitamines (most C).Edited by: Boyv

[Boyv]

-edit: double-Edited by: Boyv

[FloaterGirl]

I will check for Maoi's but i normally take a mutilvitamin, 5 htp everyday, and a b complex every other day. Some days I add potassiam but not often. I never heard of any of these things having a MAOi in them..but i could be wrong..I will certaninly check for this. I never heard of LSD in e but i could be wrong. I know that MDA makes you trip hard somethings.

[Fantasian]

a) check the pills before using them with a testing kit, its not expensive and can be obtained cheaply legally and easily.

b) Its more than likely Seretonin syndrome which is as previously posted due to an overwhelming amount of Seretonin in your system.

Many people believe that 5-HTP is good post rolling on an MDMA/pill as it replaces the lost seretonin and you recover more quickly and it also reduces the neurotoxicity of MDMA. I wouldnt advise taking 5-HTP 3 days before as it increases the chance of Seretonin syndrome significantly but after i would encourage it.

Lastly from your posting you seem to use MDMA regularly this also is bad in general for your health as it damages axons in the nerve cells. Just a side point for you to consider that you are doing irreversable (contradiction) damage to your brain. This isnt soo bad when done occasionally but regular and heavy MDMA use such as 5 pills is dangerous.

Hope the info helped

[Nagognog2]

It might have helped way back yonder in September when the person posted their original query.

It usually helps to check the date on a post. Rather like checking the date on a carton of milk before taking a big gulp.

[Fantasian]

lol sorry, didnt notice that