Acetylcholine - what's the deal?

[Wildflower]

So here's some things that i've learnt and am learning with regards to sexual ergogenics, which might be wrong in many places so correct me if i am.

(also, i'm a man and therefore this will be mainly information from a male perspective)

I have come to an understanding that both the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous systems are responsible for sexual arousal, erections, orgasm, and ejaculation. (i will use sexual arousal instead of libido, because "libido" is too nebulous a term for my use here).

Both utilise different neurotransmitters - for example the dopaminergic and adrenergic operate on the sympathetic NS.

The sympathetic NS is responsible for what is called the "fight or flight" response. It is also the source of sexual arousal. Now technically, 'arousal' simply means that your brain and body are in a heightened state of awareness and activation, and has zero to do with sexual arousal. However, it is very easy for that general arousal to become sexual arousal.

Now epinephrine (adrenaline), norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and dopamine, (the s-NS neurotransmitters) have been shown to have marked pro-libido effects - such as attained through the drugs coke, crystal meth, adderall, wellbutrin, selegiline etc.. That sort of raging animalistic sexual arousal.

This much is true, in treating sexual dysfunction in men, these three catecholamines are essential, and they need to be abundant in your body.

As far as i see it, the paradox arises because, whilst the sympathetic nervous system is responsible for "sexual arousal" - erections, orgasm and ejaculation is controlled by the para-sympathetic NS.

If the sympathetic NS can be referred to as the "fight of flight" response system, then the para-sympathetic NS can be referred to as the "rest and repose" response.

The para-s NS is involved in all teh activities you do during a state of rest and relaxation, including - urinating, digestion, bowel movements, erections etc..

So for full sexual potency, you need a careful synergy between the sympathetic and para-symapethetic NS's - between arousal and relaxation.

The problem with jacking up your dopamine/norepinephrine is that you will induce a heightened state of stress which will shut down your para-sympathetic system. The sympathetic system acts as a vaso-constrictor, whereas the para-sympathetic system is a vaso-dilator.

This is why, despite feeling incredibly sexual on drugs such as coke - most men struggle to achieve erection, orgasm and/or ejaculation.

This is why you need to be in a state of calm (para-sympathetic) to achieve erection - which is why psycological anxiety is the biggest cause of Erectile Dysfunction. This is also why some people find it difficult to piss when other people are watching - because urinary function is also controlled by the para-SNS.

My hypothesis is that stimulating the para-SNS ALONG WITH using sympathetic NS boosters (such as the selegiline + cabergoline combo) induce more reliable multi-orgasms and hard and erect whenever ready response.

I've discovered that acetylcholine is the key neurotransmitter for the para-SNS. It has an effect on the neuro-muscular junctions - therefore is also a potent CNS stimulant - in that it greatly enhances strength. It is also a muscle relaxant and could cause heart complications (chemical weapons and snake/spider poisons contain this to paralyse their pray).

However, could taking a safe dosage of a drug like alantamine/neostigmine give enough of a para-SNS stimulation vis a vis acetylcholine to COMPLEMENT the symapathetic NS stimulants?

These drugs are used to traet Alzheimers patients and are widely available (galantamine is sold as a supplement) and both increase acetylcholine concentrations. This is important for preserving the neuro-plasticity of the brain in helping you learn new things and adapt.

So i would add neostigimine to my stack and thereby get both sympathetic and para-sympathetic NS stimulation.

That's the thesis. I have more on this, with links and articles and shit, but have to go in a meeting. Back in a bit.

Wildflower added 69 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

Anyway, Acetylcholine

As said earlier this is the para-sympathetic neurotransmitter. What is more, i have read studies in which this chemical is used to induce orgasm/ejaculation in people with spinal injuries. I.e, using the parasympathetic NS to induce ejaculation.

In fact, from what i read, this is widely practiced in medical circles for sexual dysfunction in spinally injured people.

Also, the drug Neostigmine which is used to treat Acetylcholine deficiency in Althzeimer sufferrers (because it acetylcholinesterase inhibitor - i.e, in prevents the breakdown of acetylcholine) has been used to treat psychogenic ED (psycological erectile dysfunction):

Method of reducing psychological impotence

This invention relates neostigmine bromide or neostigmine methyl sulfate as a pharmaceutical agent to reduce psychogenic impotence in physiologically normal men.

Men who are physiologically normal by all available tests but who fail to achieve erections in most of their attempts have been treated almost exclusively by psychological means with relatively small success. Such erectile impotence has long been observed to have a significant association with worry and anxiety.

It is the primary object of this invention to provide a pharmaceutical treatment for psychological or psychogenic impotence.

Neostigmine bromide or neostigmine methyl sulfate which is available commercially as Prostigmin bromide or Prostigmin methyl sulfate from Roche Pharmaceutical Co. stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system. It inhibits the destruction of acetylcholine by inhibiting or inactivating acetylcholinerase, the enzyme which normally destroys naturally formed and released acetylcholine; thereby, neostigmine bromide allows additional cholinergic stimulation. Thus, neostigmine bromide causes acetylcholine to accumulate and to exert a longer stimulatory action at sensitive sites throughout the nervous system.

For this reason, the principal use of neostigmine bromide is in the treatment of Myasthenia Gravis whose basic symptom is muscular weakness which results from a reduction in the amount of acetylcholine available at the nerve-muscle junction. It is the acetylcholine which causes the muscle to respond by contraction. In Myasthenia Gravis, neostigmine bromide seems also to act directly on the muscle membrane, thereby enhancing muscular strength. The aerage daily dose of neostigmine bromide in the treatment of Myasthenia Gravis is 150 mg (ten 15 mg tablets). Some patients receive as much as 400 mg neostigmine bromide daily.

The actions of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems are opposed. The sympathetic nervous system seems to prepare the body for nervous or vigorous muscular activity and has therefore been called the system of "flight or fight"; whereas the parasympathetic nervous system acts more discretely on individual organs or regions of the body and has therefore been called the "housekeeper" of the body, regulating ordinary functions of living (digestion, urine flow, etc.). Accordingly, the integrating activity of the autonomic nervous system (sympathetic and parasympathetic) is of vital importance for the well being of the organism.

Applicant believes that neostigmine bromide is a balancing agent for these two opposed systems because of its cholinergic stimulating effect on the parasympathetic nervous system. While neostigmine bromide has been used for paralytic ileus and atony of the urinary bladder, glaucoma and some other eye conditions, and atropine intoxication as reported in "The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics" by Goodman and Gilman (1975 Ed.) Macmillan & Company, applicant has discovered that in relatively small doses and by oral mucosal absorption, neostigmine bromide is very effective in reducing psychological or psychogenic impotence in men.

Applicant is aware that neostigmine bromide has been used intrathecally, i.e. by injection into the part of the back associated with outflow of nerves to the genitalia from the spinal cord, in cord-injured patients to produce ejaculation generally with erection, Guttman and Walsh: "Prostigmin Assessment Test of Fertility in Spinal Man", Paraplegia 9:39-51, 1971 and Griffith, Tomko and Timms, "Sexual Function in Spinal Cord-Injured Patients: A Review" Arch. Phys. Med. Rehabil. Vol. 54, pp. 539-543, Dec. 1973.

However, it is applicant who has discovered the effectiveness of neostigmine bromide on physiologically normal but psychologically impotent men especially when administered by oral mucosal absorption, i.e. sub-lingually.

A number of men were treated with neostigmine bromide in accordance with the instant invention and the results obtained are shown in the following Table 1. All men treated had an essentially normal physical examination and were not taking any other drugs or medicines, aside from coffee or tea. Blood flow to their genitals was clinically adequate and all had been previously diagnosed as "psychologically" impotent.

Thus, it has been discovered that administering neostigmine bromide or neostigmine methyl sulfate in relatively small doses of 15 mg or 30 mg without one hour prior to sexual attempt, especially when administered by swilling or oral mucosal absorption (sub-lingually) has a significant affect on diminishing psychological impotence. In the sub-lingual administration, the neostigmine bromide takes effect in 8-10 minutes. Since it increases the parasympathetic tone by cholinergic stimulation and since older people may produce too little choline, administration of neostigmine bromide may enhance the sexuality in older people.

Wildflower added 98 Minutes and 38 Seconds later...

i was trying to break this post up into several posts to make it easier to read, but you keep merging posts... anyway.. more on acetylcholine ( i cant post links because i'm a n00b)


"Physiologic erectile impotence differs from psychogenic erectile impotence in significant ways and one can readily separate the two types. From early childhood through at least the eighties, erections occur during normal sleep and is known as nocturnal penile tumescence or NPT. This happens during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep and the total NPT time per night averages about 100 min. These erections continue to occur in patients having the psychogenic form of erectile impotence while they do not occur in men with physiological
causes for their impotence. Therefore, the simple observation that erectile function is present during sleep indicates that a psychogenic cause rather than a physiologic cause is at work.

As stated above, galanthamine, a cholinergic drug believed potentially to be useful for Senile Demetia of the Alzheimer's Type (SDAT), has been reported to alleviate the psychogenic form of erectile impotence.

Physostigmine has been used to obtain an ejaculation from paraplegic men (Andrologia 20 (4):311-3, July-August 1988). Neostigmine has been used intrathecally to obtain a sample from a paraplegic male for artificial insemination purposes (Paraplegia 24 (1):32-7, 1986 Feburary).

The United States Pharmacopoeia, 9th Edition lists papaverine and phentolamine as useful in impotence. Papaverine is an opium alkaloid and it relaxes smooth muscle in the ureter and blood vessels. Phentolamine is an adrenergic inhibitor, while physostigmine and neostigmine are cholinergic agents."


So these "cholinergic" agents seem to combat the "psychological" causes of ED, in that they stimulate the relaxation response...