Tapering - Managing Alcohol Withdrawal with Paresthesia with Tapering

[ish4334]

swim said....

I am a 21 year old male and have not been a heavy drinker for long, only around 2-3 months.

I have recently been drinking more frequently than I would like to. I also take 1mg clonazepam daily for social phobia, OCD and generalized anxiety disorder. I drank for 2 months almost everyday ranging from 5-10 beers to self medicate since I know the clonazepam and alcohol are synergistic. During that binge, I decided to put down the drink and all was fine until the next night when I experienced restlessness, anxiety, and difficulty focusing in addition to mild tremors (barely visible). That night I read a lot about alcohol withdrawal and decided to taper starting at 10 beers. I successfully tapered down to 2 a day over the course of a couple weeks and was able to quit at that point and experienced no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever.

I then practiced a week of sobriety, eating normally and taking a multi-vitamin daily. After that week of sobriety, my 21st birthday came around and I picked up a drink again. I then drank 5-8 beers a night for the past week and the night before last night I made the mistake (while intoxicated) to take a swig of tequila. After sleeping through the night, I awoke to a tingling/pins and needles sensation in my left hand which I now know to be paresthesia. A mild tremor, only noticeable if I spread my fingers out and feel for the twitch was also present but very mild. I read all about it online, noting that alcohol withdrawal is a cause of paresthesia as well as vitamin deficiency and other diseases such as MS and lymes disease.

So last night, I very slowly, over the course of the night, drank beer, about 1 per hour, to see if it would get rid of the paresthesia in order to attempt to rule out anything like MS on my own all while avoiding getting drunk. The tingling ended up getting much better in my hand as I slowly drank and currently it is very mild and is all over my body, not just in my left hand. It was much more tolerable and I was able to sleep through the night. I awoke to almost no tingling, but it slowly came back throughout the day so I read about it some more and decided to treat myself for vitamin deficiency and dehydration.

I went to CVS earlier today and bought vitamin B-complex 100 which contains large amounts of all B vitamins including the necessary 100mg of thiamine, much folic acid, and much vitamin B-12. I have also purchased a lot of powerade to aid in re hydration and have been drinking distilled water constantly. I took 1 B-complex, 2 centrum multi-vitamins, and 3 fish oil pills with a hearty dinner. The paresthesia seems to be getting better after taking the vitamins and re hydrating my body and eating a good dinner with a very large serving of vegetables.

So tonight I was going to quit cold turkey, utilizing my clonazepam to keep the worst of the symptoms (and paresthesia) at bay, but about an hour ago I noted that the mild tingling became a mild burning/sunburn type sensation, which I have read is also common in patients with paresthesia and that usually the tingling progresses to burning. I also noticed an increased panic response and difficulty focusing as well as hand shakes a bit more noticeable than last time I had them. This was about 12 hours since my last drink. I took an additional clonazepam and the burning got better but was still present, but the anxiety and shakes were still VERY much present, so I decided that I must taper again in order to avoid brain and nerve damage from withdrawing cold turkey.

So I have allotted myself only 8 beers tonight in order to taper down from the 10 I drank over the course of last night. After the first couple sips of beer, the anxiety symptoms and shakes were immediately lessened and I now feel "functional". The paresthesia burning sensation also immediately went away and now I only have the occasion tingle/itch but the tingles are not bothersome anymore and seem to be improving still.

I plan to follow a strict taper schedule as I successfully did before by stabilizing the dose at 8 beers again tomorrow, then 7, then 7, then 6, then 6, etc. until I am down to 1 a night. Then I plan to have NO alcohol and only take my recommended dose of clonazepam that night.


I am doing this because I simply cannot afford the hospital bill for going to the ER since I have no insurance and am currently working my way through college barely making it by as it is. If the paresthesia were still present after taking vitamins everyday and tapering fully and eating healthy, then I will consider a hospital visit in order to find out any other underlying cause, but as of right now I believe that the paesthesia is caused by the alcohol withdrawal sicne it literally happened overnight the only night I have taken a shot of liquor in over a year and not from something like MS or lymes disease, so I will take it one day at a time for now and rely on my previously successful tapering technique.


I believe my withdrawal symptoms are mild since I am not experiencing severe shakes, dementia, visual/auditory hallucinations, or seizures.


So the advice I am seeking is if this sounds like I am doing everything necessary to treat mild alcohol withdrawal at home.



I would also like to know of others experience with this tingling/bug crawling feeling (paresthesia) that I am getting and how long it took to go away after weaning/getting off of alcohol for good.


Thanks in advance.

[sirmoonie]

"stabilizing the dose at 8 beers"

Never heard beer drinking expressed in such terms before. You make it sound so.......so clinical.

This is all in your head, man. Many wouldn't even call what you do heavy drinking. In any case, your concerns such as "so I decided that I must taper again in order to avoid brain and nerve damage from withdrawing cold turkey" are absolutely absurd given your alcohol situation (21 years old and drinking 2-3 months).

And you did not get paresthesia from a six pack and a tequila shot. I guarantee it.

Other than common and very temporary hangover symptoms, my expert opinion is that this is all in your head (see OCD). If you want to quit drinking (and I highly recommend it, given your mentality), you don't need a hospital, a schedule, insurance, klodzopan, or anything else dramatic. Just go ahead and quit. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. I guarantee it.

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[ish4334]

Originally Posted by sirmoonie

This is all in your head, man. Many wouldn't even call what you do heavy drinking. In any case, your concerns such as "so I decided that I must taper again in order to avoid brain and nerve damage from withdrawing cold turkey" are absolutely absurd given your alcohol situation (21 years old and drinking 2-3 months).

I know I an overly anxious about this whole thing and want to quit drinking, but I am worried about the withdrawals getting too bad since I know you can die from alcohol withdrawal and I have always drank something as soon as I start having a panic attack. I wanted to taper because it has worked for me in the past and it weans the body off of alcohol and minimizes withdrawal severity and risk for kindling.

And you did not get paresthesia from a six pack and a tequila shot. I guarantee it.

It was 11 beers and a swig from the bottle, but is paresthesia a very common and very temporary withdrawal symptom like you say below?

I have had it for a couple days now while tapering and it is almost non existent in the morning and gets the worst at night before I drink. It has, however, gotten better since it happened so I think gradually dropping the dose of alcohol is getting my brain used to making its GABA on its own again.

Other than common and very temporary hangover symptoms, my expert opinion is that this is all in your head (see OCD).

I do have extra anxiety because of my mental problems, but I recognize the withdrawal symptoms just as well. It is not ALL in my head, but I am sure some of it is, like worrying about somehow having MS when I think it is probably from alcohol.

If you want to quit drinking (and I highly recommend it, given your mentality), you don't need a hospital, a schedule, insurance, klodzopan, or anything else dramatic. Just go ahead and quit. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. I guarantee it.

I definitely intend to quit, and should be tapered off within a week or so. I have been dropping the dose faster. I had 7 last night and am going to have 5-6 tonight. I am just trying to get off the crap more gradually to make it easier on my mind and body, plus I was able to do it successfully in the past. I also have responsibilities like class to go to and I can't be withdrawing in class.

I just don't see whats worth the risk with quitting cold turkey when weaning off of it more gradually makes more sense from a harm reduction standpoint.


I am ,however, glad to receive your reassurance that my withdrawal is probably mild and won't cause the DT's. I just want to get through this and your reassurance is comforting.

[sirmoonie]

If you are 21 and been drinking the amounts you say for 2-3 months, it is impossible for you to have what most people would consider alcohol withdrawal problems, much less die of alcohol withdrawal.

Using terms like "cold turkey" with respect to a decision not to get drunk one particular night renders the term almost meaningless. You have virtually nothing to turk from, you could quit in seconds if you wanted to, without skipping a beat.

The reason you are "tapering," as opposed to stopping, is because you like drinking alcohol. Right?

You do not have paresthesia related to alcohol intake. SWIM as been around hard-core drinkers his entire life, and you have to be boozing it up for decades to get there. You probably have a pinched nerve, carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis or something structural in nature. At your age, it will more than likely go away in a matter of time, drunk or not.

Worry about other things is my advice.

[ish4334]

Originally Posted by sirmoonie

The reason you are "tapering," as opposed to stopping, is because you like drinking alcohol. Right?

The reason for tapering is to quit alcohol for good while avoiding the withdrawal symptoms I get including the shakes, panic attacks, tingling all over, confusion, and difficulty focusing on tasks at hand. If I could simply not drink tomorrow without withdrawals, I wouldn't be tapering.

You do not have paresthesia related to alcohol intake. You probably have a pinched nerve, carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis or something structural in nature.

How can you be so sure? It goes away when I drink, and when I cake additional benzodiazepines it gets less severe.

Wouldn't you say that is likely related to the GABA neurotransmitter and that low levels of it from abusing sedative-hypnotics resulted in down regulation of GABA by the brain since I have essentially been doing the work for the brain by supplying it for it?

I have no other symptoms characteristic of the disorders you mention. This leads me to believe it is indeed a response to alcohol withdrawal.

At your age, it will more than likely go away in a matter of time, drunk or not.

I hope so.

Worry about other things is my advice.

I try to as I like to keep my mind off of this problem since it gives me much anxiety and makes the tingling worse.

[SWIMming]

I don't want to demean your experience, if what you are saying is 100% fact, just want to put a thought out there for you...

To preface that thought, this - scientifically and experientially speaking, significant alcohol-withdrawal induced symtpoms of ANY kind (other than psychological desire) are EXTREMELY unlikely...I won't say its impossible in based on what you've said....but only because I don't have a medical degree...

It sounds more like you may have a more significant/more generalized anxiety issue that you'd been sub/semi-conciously medicating with booze, and with trying to stop the booze intake, you're applying the anxiety issues (which booze had reduced) on alcohol withdrawal.

Pure conjecture on my part of course, but seriously....

IF you are truly suffering physical withdrawal symtoms from booze from 4 or so months of heavy drinking, then you may be the strongest example of predispotion to alcohol addiction ever....

(Note - my 'experietial' basis for this reply is a heavy genetic disposition towards alcoholism AND general addictictions (gambling, general drugs, - stimulants and booze in particular)


Not saying I'm right, not even saying i think my theory is PROBABLY right....

Just saying you should think about it in those terms, and do some research on physical alcohol addiction.


You do NOT want to become an addict because you're anxiety made you believe you already were one. Believe me...

[ish4334]

Originally Posted by SWIMming

I don't want to demean your experience, if what you are saying is 100% fact

Why would I lie on an anonymous board at which I am seeking peer help and support? And I would not take any advice as demeaning. I am grateful for any help I receive.

It sounds more like you may have a more significant/more generalized anxiety issue that you'd been sub/semi-conciously medicating with booze, and with trying to stop the booze intake, you're applying the anxiety issues (which booze had reduced) on alcohol withdrawal.

This may be adding to the severity, especially since my medication (klonopin) is in the picture along with alcohol, but the withdrawals are very, very real and physical in nature, not psychological.

IF you are truly suffering physical withdrawal symtoms from booze from 4 or so months of heavy drinking, then you may be the strongest example of predispotion to alcohol addiction ever....

Keep in mind benzodiazepine dependence is also in the picture.

and do some research on physical alcohol addiction.

I have already extensively researched this, hence I know all of the warning signs and symptoms and recognize them in myself because they are alien to me. [/QUOTE]

ish4334 added 11 Minutes and 34 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by bcubed

If SWIY is having success tapering, then more power to him. "Reduction cures" were always a dicey thing for Lizard, as once enough alcohol was consumed so that he felt "well," the urge to continue drinking was often overpowering.

I know exactly what you mean as that is the same "urge" that caused me to drink on a daily basis... the thought that "oh just one more, I will just buy more beer tomorrow" crap.

But I tapered before, and I am on the second day doing so again tonight, which I am on my 5th and last beer for the night that I have allowed. Willpower is everything with addiction. I was also able to quit cigs the same way with no difficulty.

Also, I don't doubt there is a physical dependency component if you report there is. Despite what sirmoonie said, 2-3 months' of daily drinking is sufficient to produce a dependency. Also, there is the fact of concurrent use of benzodiazipines, which one would expect to help produce dependency.

Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that my dependence symptoms are more sever because I have been heavily drinking in conjunction with benzodiazepines because of the cross-tolerance and synergy between both substances. That is why I am being very cautious and tapering while staying hydrated and full of vitamins.

As far as anxiety goes, the good news is that, if SWIY's paresthesia is related to alcohol--and he has faith in his ability to abstain from same--then it is quite easliy solved, vs. some of the other things that could be causing it.

I can only hope that once the tapering is complete that the paresthesia goes away completely (as I said it gets less sever when I drink). If not, then I will make a doctors appointment to search for the cause. As of right now, I think it is probably the alcohol and will continue as such.

Finally, Lizard had good things to say regarding dextromethorphan as a de-motivator for alcohol consumption, and SWIY might want to look into this if he feels uncertain of his resolve.

Sorry, but I cannot utilize that for alcohol withdrawal. I have VERY extensive experience with pure DXM powder and have researched the chemical greatly. I know it lowers the seizure threshold and I do not want to risk seizures. Plus I have not touched the powder in about 2 years and do not plan to until my blood pressure is lower.

As far as de-motivating goes, I am ONLY motivated to drink alcohol right now for the sake of weaning off and taking a LONG break, probably like 4-6 months. I have no desire to get drunk anymore as it has caused me more trouble than the high is worth.

[SWIMming]

I apologize for my callous questioning/attitude in my last post.

I DID semi-neglect the fact that the ordeal was mixed with concurrent regular benzo usage (which is very significant).

I will stick to my opinion that a large part of the 'alcohol' induced withdrawals are semi-psychological/benzo induced however. I spent about 2 and a half years averaging 8-12 drinks a day in my late teens and early twenties, and upon quitting suffered only hints of physical withdrawals, although the psych withdrawals/cravings were extremely intense.

If we are both correct in our interpretation of our experiences, then one, or both of us are an anomaly :P.

In any case, I apologize again for the tone my last post took, looking back, I was an ass :P.

If SWIM were here, he'd make a chemical excuse, but thats not something that justifies anything :P

[bcubed]

ish4334,

If SWIY is having success tapering, then more power to him. "Reduction cures" were always a dicey thing for Lizard, as once enough alcohol was consumed so that he felt "well," the urge to continue drinking was often overpowering. He found that substituting Valium/Diazepam for alcohol worked at combating the physical complaints without producing enough euphoria to make overconsumption an issue

Also, I don't doubt there is a physical dependency component if you report there is. Despite what sirmoonie said, 2-3 months' of daily drinking is sufficient to produce a dependency. Also, there is the fact of concurrent use of benzodiazipines, which one would expect to help produce dependency.

As far as anxiety goes, the good news is that, if SWIY's paresthesia is related to alcohol--and he has faith in his ability to abstain from same--then it is quite easliy solved, vs. some of the other things that could be causing it.

Finally, Lizard had good things to say regarding Dextromethorphan as a de-motivator for alcohol consumption, and SWIY might want to look into this if he feels uncertain of his resolve.

[nutellajunkie]

this is very good advice for anyone trying to quit. Yes it is a bad bit of advice to just stop, no matter how short of long term you have been on the drink, there are always going to be that attack of withdrawal. If some people can cope then good for them, but I guarantee most people with an issue cant just stop.

SWIM made the mistake of just quitting, and then all hell broke loose, this was at the same time as he started cold turkey on opiates. And thats a hell of a combination to quit.

Tapeing is the way to go, but its always so tempting to just finish that bottle and get another one. And when SWIMs hangover symptoms only make him hellishly lethargic it makes it even more difficult to pop down to the market and purchase another bottle - perhaps a good thing. That on top of the withdrawal from opiates, wow, what a shock to the system.

Never feel guilty if you need a little longer to taper, some people will take longer than others, its all a personal situation and experience.

[sirmoonie]

Originally Posted by ish4334

Oh and for the record, tapering is the way to go. It is irresponsible and bad advice to tell someone to "just quit" as in cold turkey.

Horsehockey! People do it all the freakin' time.

Irresponsible and bad advice would be tell the large majority of people with an alcohol problem that it's not only okay, but it's in their best interest to actually keep drinking alcohol for some undefined period of time, solely based on your strange decisions with this still-in-progress "tapering" procedure that you dreamt up for yourself. Not that many of them would be self-deluded enough to believe you, but THAT would be irresponsible and bad advice to give to people who likely have a habit of looking for excuses to drink.

Most people who quit alcohol do it "cold turkey." And again, it's absurd to even talk about concepts like "cold turkey" and "tapering" in association with a 21 year old who's been drinking for 3 months.

Originally Posted by ish4334

I am ashamed that a member here even told me to "just quit" and that "nothing bad would happen to me" without inquiring into anything like high blood pressure, heart condition, co-morbidity, etc.

How do you know I was wrong? Your self-prescribed tapering program (i.e., your decision to continue to get loaded) is two days old, as far as I can tell. And you haven't quit jack yet. So how do you know I was wrong?

You have mental issues far beyond anything you think alcohol was doing or ever did to you.

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overly harsh & somewhat wrong - ppl w/serious alcohol problems are often treated w/benzos to prevent seizures becaus...

[missparkles]

Firstly taking a chance that after drinking for 2-3 months (regularly) that you won't experience WD symptoms, is a bit risky in my opinion. Alcohol is a drug, and like all other addictive drugs there's a physical and psychological aspect involved in dependence. All physically addictive drugs that are prescribed by a doctor are usually only given for short term use because of this reason, opiates and benzo's being the two most common ones. Just because it doesn't come on a prescription, and is legally available, doesn't negate this problem.

If you use alcohol regularly (large amounts, not a couple of drinks) over a period of more than a month, I'd assume you're gonna get some physical effects when your body realises it's no longer getting it's daily intake of alcohol? But I'd imagine that those effects would increase if you've been drinking for longer. Factor in the personal aspect, not everyone is the same, some can become physically dependent much quicker at smaller doses. And it's less clear. But if you're in any way unsure, then the safest advice to give would be to recommend a taper.

Sparkles knows people who have been regular, heavy drinkers, for 15 yrs, and one day they get WD if they don't drink. She also knows others who have drank heavily for 2 months, stopped, and get the shakes. I wonder how much psychological dependence affects this? I'm not saying physical WD comes from the mind (physical WD does exist), but maybe it's effects, (most people feel anxious) might be enhanced by the mind needing to convince your body to experience symptoms that will make you feel so bad, you take that first drink?

I had to look up the word "Paresthesia" as I hadn't a clue what it meant. I thought it was a specific medical condition, I didn't realise it was pins and needles. As has been pointed out, no one here is qualified to offer specific advice, so it's always best to get some accurate medical advice. Always take any illnesses you have into consideration, and I'll stress again, if in any doubt, always taper, never just stop abruptly. After all, is it worth taking a chance with your health, for the sake of a few days?

I get the feeling that image plays a big part in the drinking culture today. If you hang with certain people it would almost be seen as unmanly, a weakness, if you decide to taper. You know the stuff "men drink hard and play hard." And when it comes to quitting booze, they're just as fuckin' tough. Well I believe it's preferable to be safe and be soft, (taper) than be tough and hard (cold turkey) and risk the possibly of damaging your health.

Suffering minimal short term memory loss, due to one seizure that lasted 60 seconds, doesn't feel so tough when you're stood there looking in your refrigerator...and you have no idea what you're looking for. Always take the safest option.

Sparkles.

[ish4334]

Originally Posted by sirmoonie

Horsehockey! People do it all the freakin' time.

Irresponsible and bad advice would be tell the large majority of people with an alcohol problem that it's not only okay, but it's in their best interest to actually keep drinking alcohol for some undefined period of time, solely based on your strange decisions with this still-in-progress "tapering" procedure that you dreamt up for yourself. Not that many of them would be self-deluded enough to believe you, but THAT would be irresponsible and bad advice to give to people who likely have a habit of looking for excuses to drink.

Most people who quit alcohol do it "cold turkey." And again, it's absurd to even talk about concepts like "cold turkey" and "tapering" in association with a 21 year old who's been drinking for 3 months.


How do you know I was wrong? Your self-prescribed tapering program (i.e., your decision to continue to get loaded) is two days old, as far as I can tell. And you haven't quit jack yet. So how do you know I was wrong?

You have mental issues far beyond anything you think alcohol was doing or ever did to you.

Wow. What are you doing posting on a harm reduction forum like this?

Defending your faulty position is only making your position worse.

Also, my "dreamt up" tapering technique? Are you joking? People have been tapering alcohol with alcohol since the substance was discovered. What did people do before barbiturates and benzodiazepines? Before hospitals? Use your brain for once.

You wean a baby off the Binky, what is your argument for why quitting cold turkey with alcohol is better than cold turkey given such a SIMPLE example of why tapering works and will ALWAYS work better than simply quitting?



I am honestly afraid that you will someday give someone advice that will kill them. Luckily my symptoms have gotten much better as I drank less and less each day, but what about someone who has been drinking for years? How would you feel about giving advice to just quit and "nothing bad will happen" and then the person has grand mal seizures?


Also, you do not need to patronize me for only drinking heavily for 2-3 months. This has been taking place in conjunction with potent benzodiazepines and you obviously either have no idea what you are talking about or you want people to have seizures/WD's as punishment for their addiction.


Stop preaching your one sided/opinionated bullsh*t and try to actually help people FFS, otherwise you should just take your crap to AA and stay off of harm reduction forums.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point about always playing it safe, DF is a harm reduction site, not a "fuck it" and kill yourself site.

[sirmoonie]

Originally Posted by ish4334

Wow. What are you doing posting on a harm reduction forum like this?

Originally Posted by ish4334

Defending your faulty position is only making your position worse.

Also, my "dreamt up" tapering technique? Are you joking? People have been tapering alcohol with alcohol since the substance was discovered. What did people do before barbiturates and benzodiazepines? Before hospitals? Use your brain for once.

I was referring to YOUR personal dreamt up tapering technique. You made it up - you alleged you were worried about brain damage, yet never consulted any medical professional about whether, how, when, or why to taper alcohol dependence with more alcohol - i.e., you dreamt YOUR taper program, starting at 10 beers a night, right up.

I don't doubt for a second, and never even debated for a second, that many people, since the dawn of alcohol, have tried to taper off alcohol with more alcohol. I'll bet most have been hugely unsuccesful, assuming it was even necessary to begin with. In fact, I'll bet most failed taper programs, which again is probably most taper programs, end up in a cold turkey situation later on.

Originally Posted by ish4334

You wean a baby off the Binky, what is your argument for why quitting cold turkey with alcohol is better than cold turkey given such a SIMPLE example of why tapering works and will ALWAYS work better than simply quitting?

Your analogy to weaning off a baby Binky is obscene, offensive to everyone who has struggled with alcohol addiction, misguided, revealing, weak, and ultimately stupid.

Furthermore, when people go so far as to capitalize a rigid word like "ALWAYS" they try to at least acquaint themselves with what they've decided to be so emphatic about. You failed.

Every day, in thousands of alcohol rehabilitation centers and AA groups around the world, tens of thousands of people with all manner of drinking problems quit cold turkey.

Every day, in thousands of jails around the world, tens of thousands of people with all manner of drinking problems, facing all the usual alcohol related charges, go cold turkey sitting in jail, or as a condition of their release at home.

Every Monday morning, tens of millions of people around the world with all manner of drinking problems, trudge into work and quit cold turkey until their next drinking binge, days, weeks, even months in the future.

The vast majority don't suffer whatever it is you're going on about. If they did, we'd certainly know about it. Well, you might not, but most people would.

Every day, thousands of doctors around the world tell thousands of patients with all manner of drinking problems to quit drinking immediately. Whether true or not, some patients are even admonished, for motivational deterence reasons, that their next drink may be their last.

Do you really think anyone has gone to a doctor presenting alcohol problems, whether they are physical, emotional, and/or mental, and the doctor has said anything remotely like "Well, the first thing you need to do is go home and drink 10 beers." WTF?

Do you really think any of the millions of people who have used AA to successfully quit drinking, went to a meeting for the first time and were advised to go home, get drunk, and come back in a few weeks after they had weened the Binky?

Go to Google Scholar and try to find one peer-reviewed article where anyone connected with the medical profession has suggested that the typical alcoholic should keep drinking alcohol to quit drinking alcohol. You won't. What you will find are articles that suggest that in only about 1 out of 5 people who go to hospital with alcohol problems (which would be a SMALL subset of the population of alcohol addicts to begin with) is it necessary to administer medically approved drugs to prevent serious withdrawal problems like the ones you were spazzing out about. And NONE of them are sent home with guidance to drink more booze, that I can assure you.

Originally Posted by ish4334

I am honestly afraid that you will someday give someone advice that will kill them. Luckily my symptoms have gotten much better as I drank less and less each day, but what about someone who has been drinking for years? How would you feel about giving advice to just quit and "nothing bad will happen" and then the person has grand mal seizures?

You asked that brand new "question" on the skimmest set of hypothetical facts, that are quite different from your own, while making huge assumptions as to what I'd say on something I've never read before. Entirely unpersuasive and unimpressive use of rhetorical device. Get your money back from that college before it's too late.

Now, how would YOU feel telling a person with an alcohol problem, (1) who's been advised to quit by a doctor, or (2) who regularly gets into serious problems when they start a drinking session, or (3) who has significant difficulty stopping once they start drinking, that's it's okay to keep drinking as long as there's some reason they can self-style what they are doing as tapering program? And then that person suffered an alcohol related problem that they would otherwise not have suffered? (Pay attention - that's how you set up and phrase rhetorical questions.)

As you know, or as you should know, one of the hallmarks of a drinking problem is significantly lessened ability to stop drinking after the first few are consumed. You think your tapering program jives with that for the vast majority of people with alcohol problems? Is that what you meant by "ALWAYS" up above? I am (dis)honestly afraid that you will someday give someone advice that will kill them.

If most people could taper for a couple of weeks, starting with 10 friggin' beers a night no less, they likely wouldn't have a problem quitting in the first instance. Use your brain for once.

Originally Posted by ish4334

Also, you do not need to patronize me for only drinking heavily for 2-3 months. This has been taking place in conjunction with potent benzodiazepines and you obviously either have no idea what you are talking about or you want people to have seizures/WD's as punishment for their addiction.

Originally Posted by ish4334

Stop preaching your one sided/opinionated bullsh*t and try to actually help people FFS, otherwise you should just take your crap to AA and stay off of harm reduction forums.

Woah. That was cold, turkey.

I tried to help you. You came in here crying about "brain and nerve damage" from the world's most short term drinking problem -- one that you're probably in danger of tapering longer than even having -- and I gave you the assurances you seemed to want that nothing would would happen. As far as you know, nothing would have.

Now just why exactly you felt the need, here on a harm reduction site, to make a snide little remark maligning Alcoholics Anonymous, where I'll bet half the regulars on this board (both cold turks and the few odd taper turks) go regularly, is a mystery. Unless you feel like explaining it?

You should take your inherently dangerous "quit drinking via more drinking" crap back to your Reverend Sun Young Moon fanzine and stay off harm reduction forums.

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[10outof10]

Different strokes for different folks..

SWIM doesn't think it's helpful to either slag off AA by default or belittle a gradual reduction/tapering strategy. In SWIM's experience both are equally valuable. SWIM think's that especially if there is any underlying issues such as mental health, then even a short period of heavy alcohol use could create a dependency, be that physical or mental, so therefore tapering may be a good method for SWIY. SWIM believes that some people are more susceptible to withdrawal and feels that as long as the tapering program is S.M.A.R.T (specific, measurable, acheievable, realistic, time based) then its not such a bad idea-SWIM believes a Doc would say the same?

[ish4334]

The way I look at it, psychiatrists don't just take people off of benzodiazepines cold turkey for a reason. Alcohol has very similar pharmacodynamic properties at the GABA receptors that make quitting cold turkey with it as dangerous as with benzodiazepines.

Psychiatrists taper patients for a reason. I am tapering for that very same reason.

[Jiggles]

This is strictly anecdotal, but SWIM was under the impression that benzodiazepines are quicker in inducing physical and psychological addiction than alcohol. Concurrent use of benzos and alcohol can exacerbate this addiction, and downers should never be mixed like that, especially on a regular basis! It is indeed likely that SWIY is suffering mild withdrawal symptoms as a result of said use. Also, SWIY is smart to taper and this applies across the board to all addictions. Tapering can and does prevent more nasty things from happening to your body. That being said....

There are also other factors to take into consideration here. SWIY has an anxiety disorder, OCD, and social phobia. Anxiety can cause the brain to manifest psychological problems into physical ones (i.e. you are reading symptoms and disorders that closely match your situation online, so your brain essentially tells itself that this is exactly what is happening and manifests other physical symptoms to match it). While SWIY is correct that tapering can prevent damage to the body, 2-3 months of alcohol use is generally not enough to produce anything nearly as profound as "nerve damage". The paresthesia might be a little disconcerting, but probably isn't going to pose a long term problem and will go away after alcohol use stops for a time.

What SWIY should be most concerned about is the benzo (klonopin?) use. By all means, do not quit that cold turkey!! What could be happening is that the concurrent alcohol and benzo use has upped SWIYs benzo tolerance as well, and the negative feelings you are experiencing could be from that too.

Anyways, best of luck to SWIY on quitting the booze!

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Excellent points raised in this post
	right on target re:the benzo-alcohol mixture affecting the taper

[davestate]

Originally Posted by ish4334

The way I look at it, psychiatrists don't just take people off of benzodiazepines cold turkey for a reason. Alcohol has very similar pharmacodynamic properties at the GABA receptors that make quitting cold turkey with it as dangerous as with benzodiazepines.

Psychiatrists taper patients for a reason. I am tapering for that very same reason.

How long have SWIyou been on the benzos for? 1mg of clonazepam equates roughly to 20mgs of diazepam, no? Withdrawl from that amount in cronic usage could well cause the symptoms you describe, and regularly drinking will worsen this, given that benzos produce a noticeable tolerance rather quickly at regular dosages

Perhaps this has has lead to the (generalised) upregulation of GABA receptors leading to the symptoms you have described, and the alcohol has made it worse by further increasing tolerance at this pathway?
Give us your full med history, and an assumption (noone can say for sure) can be made for you.

8-10 440ml cans of4.5% beer is quite alot for the layman regularly. more than 2-3 would put you over the surgeon generals max daily amount, the benzos make it worse in terms of tolerance

[EscapeDummy]

I'm going to have to agree with Sirmoonie... while his last post may have been a bit harsh, the statements are all factual, and he DOES back up all of his statements, I find the "uninformed, and unhelpful" neg rep to be a bit ironic, as the post is quite informative. OP, without meaning to sound rude, I am wondering how after a few months of reasonably heavy drinking at a young age, you are exhibiting WD symptoms on par in severity to those of middle-aged alcoholics?

[missparkles]

Sparkles just wants to make a comment here about alcoholics being told to continue drinking.
When she began telephone service for AA she asked her own GP what best advice she could give someone who was possibly addicted to alcohol?

1.Always advise the person to consult their doctor/medical professional. If they already have an appointment but it's not an immediate one, always err on the side of caution. Tell them to reduce their alcohol intake as much as possible, (be sensible) after all, if they're drinking a bottle of vodka a day reducing to two drinks a day would be silly, and possibly dangerous.

2.Explain that abrupt quitting of alcohol can sometimes cause seizures, and explain that keeping some alcohol in their system might prevent this, until they can be assessed. If they have two days to wait to see the doctor, then two extra days of reduced drinking is not gonna make that much difference. But also point out it's not a green light to get totally shit faced either.

Now Sparkles can see the logic in this. But she can't see any logic in expecting someone who has an alcohol addiction to reduce their intake continually, until they are alcohol free. If they can achieve this, then they can control their drinking, so where's the problem? But again, as no one knows how susceptable anyone is to seizures when quitting booze, it's safer to assume, until a doctor tells you otherwise, that you may need some reduction therapy. The drug most commonly used for this in the UK is chlordiazepoxide (Librium), but some doctors might still use chlormethiazole (Heminevrin).

Sparkles.

[ish4334]

Good news, I have quit drinking as of today.

Bad news, I think I might have type 2 diabetes.

I have been experiencing vertical double vision which I thought was from the sedatives and alcohol abuse, but the burning sensation and tingling along with me being overweight and drinking a lot of beer leads me to believe I have developed this form of diabetes. I have been up all night in a panic state reading about it and am going to have to go to the doctor. I took the dog for a walk an hour or so ago and am going to go to the rec center later and get a cardio workout in as soon as I can get a bit of sleep, if that is even possible. I am trading my alcohol addiction for a health addiction. I don't want to die or lose a leg.

I am going to have to talk to my parents about a doctor. I am glad I am off the alcohol, but I do not know how much permanent damage it has done to my body. My family is not rich and I am unsure how I will be able to afford the hospital bills, even after insurance.

I am hopeless and alone. I am so depressed that I do not even want to pick up a drink ever again. I don't know what is going to happen to me.