Tapering - cold turkey from solpadol

[nutellajunkie]

SWIM is happy to report that its been 4 days since he has last had a hit of the awful codiene.

It has been nearly 4 years non stop of the stuff, he would go through the full 100 script tablets then opt for OTC until his next script, which was always another 2 weeks.

The journey has been great but the time has come that the addiction had to stop.

SWIM told me that the worst part of cold turkey is the restless leg syndrome and cronic insomnia.

luckily, SWIMs GP prescribed sleeping tablets to get over the worst of it, but SWIM had to tell him that he just couldnt sleep due to already known anxiety issues.

4 days is a very long time after such a long time being on codeine, but heres hoping that SWIM will cope in due course and will feel back to "normal" shortly.

SWIM tells me he will update me of any changes.

remember cold turkey isnt as bad as it seems. yes there are immense cravings but one can over come these if one is stubborn enough, and smart enough not to buy any more OTC.

The most important thing is to keep the mind busy, even if its just watching game shows.

SWIM also looks forward to becoming part of society again and making new friends.

NB. he is shocked at the amount of money he will save.

Reputation Comments on this post:

great use of swim, and thanks for sharing swiys story with us--hope everything continues well!!

[missparkles]

Well done luv, it does feel good to get through the other side of WD doesn't it? And you've hit the nail on the head. New non using mates, keeping busy, and a whole new life to look forward to that doesn't constantly involve thinking about how you were gonna get your drug, how you were gonna afford it, and all the other complicated stuff, such as CWE. Then waking up in the morning and beginning all over again. Quitting does free you up, give you control back of you own life. Has your doc mentioned any non meds treatments for you anxiety problem, if not ask him.

You don't want something that can be dealt with now, in the early days of recovery, to be left until it becomes something more difficult to cope with. The cravings can be difficult to deal with, and they'll hit when you least expect them. Don't leave it to chance that you can get through them alone. You might able to, but why risk it? Set up some support, someone you can talk to when you're struggling with cravings, or anything else that's bringing you down.

We all have these moments, and we all have to learn to ask for help when we need it, after all, others aren't psychic, they need you to tell them. There are so many supportive posters here at DF, make use of them, they're awesomely compassionate and have some brilliant strategies to help someone get through a tough spot.
Again, 4 days clean, that's bloody brilliant, stay strong.
Sparkles.

Reputation Comments on this post:

swim thanks you for your kind words

[Esmerelda]

Wow, well done . You sound so positive - that's brilliant. And you're going to have such fun getting back into real life again - picking up on all the things you'd lost interest in.

I think missparkles has a good point too. Swim is also struggling with addiction and she is seeing a counsellor to help with her underlying issues. She knows she's unlikely to be able to get and stay clean unless she deals with them. You've obviously got the strength to get clean on your own, which is really impressive, but like missparkles says, you could make it easier for yourself by getting some support. You probably had real reasons for using, and now that you're clean it's a great time to tackle things, as emotions come to the fore after detox.

Keep us updated!

Reputation Comments on this post:

Good point, why make it more difficult than it is?

[nutellajunkie]

ugh swims sleep pattern is totally screwed up, long gone are the days of complete content sleep.

CRAVINGS!!! must resist, can resist!

[missparkles]

Originally Posted by pobb

ugh swims sleep pattern is totally screwed up, long gone are the days of complete content sleep.

CRAVINGS!!! must resist, can resist!

OK Pobb, take a deep breath, this happens, so don't stress it.
This can be an extremely vulnerable time in recovery so watch yourself. Get all the support you can, and you'll do this. Sparkles always preferred to give her addiction a distinct character, then she was able to dump all the negativity of her addiction, the nasty, devious, sly, scheming, manipulative, junkie traits she used to own, onto something that felt real. This was extremely therapeutic, and got rid of a lot of shit, especially early in recovery.

You're into your 5th day now, and your addictive gorilla, the one that has been controlling you all of the time you've been addicted, has finally realised you ain't gonna feed him any more. He's finally realised that it didn't matter how much physical pain he gave you, however much discomfort he caused you, you were strong, too determined, and he couldn't force you to give in. He didn't get his specialised diet...Solpadol.
But he still wants it.

So now he's decided to try another way to persuade you, a new, different tactic, he thinks if he makes you feel emotionally uncomfortable, you'll give in, and then he'll get just what he wants. So now your gorilla is keeping you awake, and giving you cravings, the devious fucker. Try to remember, this is the way it goes at this stage, regardless of the drug you've stopped. And it can come as a bit of a shock, especially after you have felt better. Is there anyone you can talk to, someone who can help occupy your mind till the craving passes? They always do, and the longer you're drug free the less times they occur. Eventually they will only happen occasionally. Sparkles only gets cravings rarely now, but the usually happen when she feels emotionally or physically vulnerable, which isn't often nowadays.

Just try to be aware when you get a craving, is there something that may have started it? If you do see a pattern emerging it will give you an idea what to avoid for a while. As for disturbed sleep, this happens too, although not being able to sleep is nowhere near as difficult to deal with as cravings. Try to get into a natural sleep routine, and avoid, coffee, alcohol and strenuous exercise at least 3 hours before bedtime. Have you tried reading or listening to music, this can be relaxing, and it's a distraction, it can help with cravings. This does improve luv, but unfortunately you gotta go through this stage, everyone seems to.

Just stay focused, you've done so well up to now, exceptionally well. Your positive attitude, and determination that you WILL get through, this is so impressive. Don't forget, you deserve this, you don't need to be tied to a drug to make you happy or sad. As of 4-5 days ago you own your own feelings, and however you choose to feel, it's up to you, no one else. You have taken back control of your life.
If you want to PM me, chat, I'm here. Anytime.
Take care and stay safe.
Sparkles.

Reputation Comments on this post:

fab info about the "gorilla & his special opiate diet"

[nutellajunkie]

yes the gorilla is beating swim down but im staying up.

SWIM realise the cravings just come from boredom, because SWIM is pretty house bound at the moment. SWIM live in a town where nothing happens.

SWIM also thinks he is craving drink, he came off that also, but thats another thread altogether.

As for talking to anyone, well one reason SWIM started having a problem was because people had moved on and because of the depression he wasnt able to keep up with them.

SWIM thought of calling frank, but its not got to that point yet.

SWIM will be sure to stay strong for now, and starve mister gorilla of his requirements because SWIM dont need them.

Just wondered if this complete lethargy was common in withdrawal?

Thank you so much for your comforting advice and understanding.

[missparkles]

Yes, this is more common than you realise.
Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS) affects everyone when they stop using. PAWS is determined by so many factors. The length of time you were addicted, how heavy your drug use was, your motive for using, were any emotional or psychological issues involved, and the specific drug you were addicted to. These can all effect the time it takes, and the difficulty experienced during PAWS. From what Sparkles has seen and read, it does appear that heavy drug use, over a prolonged period of time, is the most difficult to recover from. But this is just her opinion, others may find it completely different.

Sparkles doesn't know the details of how this occurs, but she's found that when she took heroin it gave her motivation, almost like an inner energy. This enabled her to start and complete even the most boring jobs, she felt alive and confident, and nothing seemed to overwhelm her. When she stopped using, this feeling of happy motivation was replaced by a lack of mental and emotional energy, which was accompanied by a low feeling that affected every aspect of her life. And the longer she used, the more accustomed her brain became to letting a substance take over. And as she began to rely more and more on an external solution working for any problem, eventually, she stopped looking for a one. Everything problem had the same solution, she just had to pop a pill, open a can or stick a needle in her vein...problem solved. I'm not talking chemistry here (I can only just about spell it, let alone understand it luv) I'm talking habit, psychological habit.

And cravings are just part of the psychological mind fuck your addiction will throw at you. Cravings can almost seem like a compulsion, and will try to tempt you back to that quick fix. When we can't sleep it's easy to get a pill, swallow it, and be asleep in 20 minutes. But after we overcome addiction we have to be careful not to fall into that same bloody trap again. Yes, it would be easier to take a pill and get a good nights sleep. Yes, it would be easier to have a couple of drinks and feel motivated and comfortable. Then when other problems come up, what do we take to make them easier to deal with? Eventually, as you've already discovered, the problems we start with, look like tiny stones, when compared to the fuckin' addiction boulders we've acquired somewhere along the way. So although the quick fix is the easiest option at the time, in reality it's certainly not quick, and it definitely ain't easy.

I've posted two links, one to Richard Smokers excellent PAWS topic, it's has good advice and other posters have added to it. The second is to a topic that's just been posted. The OP is experiencing PAWS at the moment, as you are, so maybe you can support each other? Sometimes, just sharing your thoughts and feelings with someone who is going through the same shit that you are, can be positive, and extremely therapeutic.


http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73599

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=106411

Sparkles.

Reputation Comments on this post:

V.supportive to the OP, excellent re-direction to other threads

[nutellajunkie]

Thank you again sparkles. I managed to take a read of both topics.

So day 5 has been pretty awful with the restless leg (and arms) syndrome. The cravings have been terrible. It could be so easy to just pop one of them tablets that are safely hidden away in the drawer, but its not been a completed task, phew!

SWIM will take the sleeping tablets a little earlier tonight as they seem to take time to get the effect.

Just a note to anyone going through WD, it must be one of the hardest things ever to be desired. Its just awful, but the patience and stubbornness better pay off in the end. Life must be worth living without codeine. But for now its day by day, night by night, eventually there must be a light.

[missparkles]

Sleeping tablets prescribed by your doctor are fine, (short term use only) as long as you don't abuse them, by either taking too many, or taking them too early.
How can the pills be safely hidden, you know where they are? If these are not the pills for sleep flush them down the toilet. Keep them and you will eventually use them.
You're doing fantastically well, cravings are a bastard to deal with, but you're nearly through another day. Just keep thinking of where you DON'T wanna go back to, what you don't wanna have to go through again. Stay focused and keep your chin up luv.
Sparkles.

[nutellajunkie]

You are right, I should flush them down the toilet, and infact I will as soon as I take my sleeping tablet. It should feel good to flush.

On another note, I am thinking of posting a thread about audio hypnosis. I just remembered that my mp3 player has quite alot of that stuff on it and ive never actually thought id use it.

Thanks again sparkles

[ianzombie]

Swim has great admiration for Swiy and anyone else who decides to take control back from anything that is preventing them living the life they desire.
Swim hopes that Swiy can keep up the hard work and try to remember that in just like a drug peaks withdrawals will also and soon enough things will start to get easier.

Swim recommends trying Magnesium for the RLS, it has made a noticeable difference for Swim.

Swims thoughts are with Swiy and will check in to offer support because Swim knows how helpful a few words can be when times are hard.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Such a kind, supportive post, offering a safer solution to ease the RLS.

[Esmerelda]

I don't have much to add to missparkle's comments, as she's doing a great job of covering everything, but just wanted to share my personal experience concerning the lethargy.

Swie has some experience with codeine, because for a few years before getting onto heroin she used to use codeine and tramadol. One thing she remembers is that while the initial withdrawal from codeine was sort of tolerable for her, the lethargy was awful. It took two weeks of being completely opiate free before she was feeling like she had anything like normal energy again. She thinks tramadol was slightly worse still in that respect (probably because of its SSRI properties), but codeine was bad enough. In fact, she would say that the tiredness and lethargy from codeine withdrawal approaches that felt following heroin withdrawal (at least for her). It's pretty bad in other words, so Swiy should allow for the fact that this will take a while to get over, and he's actually doing incredibily well.

Swie discovered (towards the end of her codeine use) that St John's wort helped a lot with the lethargy and depression. There's some debate about its impact on testosterone in men, but the effects, if they are there, appear to be extremely minimal. It's certainly not contraindicated in men. It might be something to look into, but ideally Swiy should discuss it with a doctor first.

Anyway, how are things going right now? Does Swiy still have those pills? I think he is doing amazingly well and I'm really impressed, but having those around makes me want to ask the question, "what is he keeping them for?" I'm not trying to be negative - I just want to understand what reason there could be for keeping in a draw some of the substance that he has decided to quit for good. Is it some sort of masochistic test of willpower!? Or does he have doubts? Hopefully he will have flushed them by now and my question will be answered . Although it's up to him of course - only he knows what he really wants.

Right, I'm off to bed now. I'm looking forward to hearing how things are going for Swiy when I get up tomorrow. Take care x

Reputation Comments on this post:

	much appreciated
	Important to remind the OP to check with his doctor before taking any meds, even non addictive OTC supplements.

[nutellajunkie]

Originally Posted by Esmerelda

I just want to understand what reason there could be for keeping in a draw some of the substance that he has decided to quit for good. Is it some sort of masochistic test of willpower!? Or does he have doubts? Hopefully he will have flushed them by now and my question will be answered . Although it's up to him of course - only he knows what he really wants x

Indeed the pills went in the bin, i couldnt be bothered to flush as opening the packet woulda tempted me just to swallow them, and where would that get me.

As for why I kept them, i suppose because I paid for them, but it was just a small amount, so no loss atall.

Anxiety is a high at the moment, as soon as I got up the stomach knots and tense tingles were there.

pobb added 352 Minutes and 43 Seconds later...

today swim just felt more restless than ever before. sure the RLS has calmed down, but now swim cant sit still, either on the sofa or at the PC perusing this forum.

Anxiety is still high, and now seems sensitive to light, but has to keep the blinds up to get as much light as possible - though thats hard at the PC since the room is naturally dark.

Cravings come and go as usual, but still fighting a good fight. SWIM very pleased SWIM dumped them pills yesterday. SWIM feels like a drink, but will wait til tomorrow to see how that goes

pobb added 1234 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

what is it, day 6, 7? I cant remember when SWIM stopped?

So good news is, SWIM managed to get Valerian root and st johns wart oil to try out to see if it eases any of the anxiety and insomnia.

Bad news is he had to get a bottle of vodka, there was no way he was going through another day of cravings for everything (yes he stopped drinking at the same time) but though it was probably best to just continue cold turkey on codeine and then move onto the alcohol problem (which he hasn't spoken about before).

The sleep was disturbed as usual, up at 5am wasnt the best thing for the mind, realising SWIM had the rest of the day to get through. Will this insomnia ever stop he asked me, I couldnt answer

So he mixed up the st johns wart oil, Valerian and vodka. The cocktail seems to have alleviated slight anxiety, but nothing special to award him with a smile.

SWIM feels desperate and completely understands the whole WD now, its hellish. He will be around if anyone else is in the same sittution and wants to talk. use the contact details if you wish.

[missparkles]

Wow, six days, that's awesome, well done luv.
Mmmmm, anxiety, restlessness and lack of concentration. Doing anything in the early stages of PAWS seems so difficult, just the effort it takes to get your arse off the chair and cook a simple meal, is more than you feel you can cope with. The payoff doesn't seem worth it for the effort it requires, so you grab a bag of crisps or a bar of chocolate instead. After all, getting out of bed is difficult enough now, cooking beans on toast...it ain't happening.

Sparkles remembers this time, and it is difficult, but something that helped her was going for a walk. I imagine you're sat there thinking "this woman's crazy, how can going for a walk make any difference?" But it does. Even a short walk at a leisurely pace, can lift your mood enough to make these PAWS symptoms easier to tolerate. The effect it achieves is similar to when a mate asks you to do something that you have no interest in, something that bores you, but you do it to keep your mate happy. But all you can think of after you've agreed to do it with them is, "why the fuck did I say I'd go, God, I'll be glad when it's over." But surprisingly you enjoyed it, had a good time, and were glad you did it. OK...not a brilliant analogy, but the best one I could think of at short notice luv. This is how you'll feel if you go for just a 15-20 minute walk. You'll also have the feeling that you've achieved something that was difficult, and that alone can lift your mood.

This is where support can be extremely helpful. Having someone to talk to about how you feel, how you lack any interest or enthusiasm in anything, that you need some real practical support. Recovery doesn't just happen, it requires effort, and sometimes you have to push yourself. Having someone with you, providing encouragement, makes this easier. And remember, everything you need to do can be done in small, doable stages. You don't have anything in one go. Break it down. In fact it's the cheapest, easiest, most available mood enhancer available. It not only gets you fit, it can help you sleep, it can stop you becoming isolating and it's a good anxiety reliever. And for the effort it requires, it pays off big time.

Just one last thing, you say you binned the pills? You couldn't be bothered to stand there, individually remove each tablet from the strip it was in, and flush it down the toilet...right? That's bollocks. I'll bet you could walk a mile to a pub, this minute, if you decided you were gonna have a drink? You might think you couldn't be bothered, but on a deeper level, keeping them intact gives you a way back. It's insurance. A bit like a smoker who's quit smoking having a packet of fags around, "just in case something awful happens", and they desperately need a cigarette. Eventually, an emergency will come along, or they'll create one, and they will have a cigarette. Same with the pills. Now you have to find new ways to deal with emergencies, pill free. I don't mean to sound so brutal about the pills, but sometimes analogies and examples just aren't appropriate, and this was one of those times.

I have to say, your determination and effort are inspiring, you're doing so well. You can get through this, just believe in yourself.
Take care luv.
Sparkles.

Shit, I almost forgot.
If you go for a walk, avoid risky places and people. Don't walk past your favourite pub, and try to avoid places where you're likely to bump into mates who are drinking. It might not seem like a risk to you, but it would be easy to relapse at this stage.

[nutellajunkie]

sparkles your comments are so worth while reading, SWIM gather SWIM have been through it all , perhaps many times also.

Today SWIM did go for a walk, allbeit not very far, bus to next town, walk to heath food store, aimlessly for a wee while and then a bus back home.

Its not tempting to goto the local pub as SWIM generally havent been in one in a while, anxiety and all that.

As for the tablets, SWIM felt it was correct of me to just bin the whole box (there was a good few left) and let it go. SWIM didnt feel bad for it either, once its in the bin, its gone, and shortly later the bin lorry came and took it all away. And as yet SWIM havent been tempted to goto a chemist and buy some more. Sure SWIM looked at a few while i was on the bus, but it more more of a reminder of what not to do, and how much SWIM had already saved, and also saved me the embarrassment of being asked the usual incriminating questions.

But rest assured, SWIM is still cold turkey from opiates, and damn even with the pain and solitude, I feel proud of SWIM.

[missparkles]

pobb,

Glad to hear the bin has been emptied, many a time Sparkles has trawled through a dustbin, raking through moldy food, (even the memory is disgusting) just too find some drugs she'd thrown away earlier. It's always good to make sure that any binned pills are made unusable, after all, anyone could get hold of them, and the bottom of a bin is just a little harder to reach than the bottom of a drawer.
I know it's difficult, especially when you feel low, but try to remember self incrimination rules. Get neg rep, and it can piss you off, which just makes you feel worse. Sparkles has gotta point out that discussion about self harm is also against the rules at DF. No one is qualified to give advice on this, but Sparkles will find the links that are provided at DF to sites that may help, and she'll PM them to SWIY.
You should feel proud of just how far you've come, it's such a fuckin' huge achievement.

Is there anyone close to you, family or friends that you could talk to? Being alone when you feel this vulnerable is not a good idea. Have you spoken to your doctor about your anxiety? If it's causing harmful or self destructive thoughts it needs to be dealt with by an expert. Don't think that it's unusual to have these feelings, and don't think your GP won't understand. After all, if thoughts about self harming were so rare, there wouldn't be so many services available to treat them, would there?
I'm gonna find the links to the sites I mentioned previously and PM them to you. Please, if you need to talk, PM me, I'll do whatever I can to help.
Keep your chin up luv. Trust me, it does get better, just sometimes it doesn't feel like it does.
Sparkles.

[nutellajunkie]

a search has been done of other help lines in the area, there seems to be a couple, most open later on. SWIM will do his best to contact them.

I reckon SWIM just finds is all too daunting and nerve racking that he may have to admit to someone over the phone that he has more problems, resulting in them contacting the doctor. Not that that is a major problem, but I have to take into account of SWIMs anxiety, which is a huge issue right now.

[Esmerelda]

Wow, pobb, I'm stunned at your strength of will - not only did you begin a detox when you actually had some of the drug available in your room, but you also managed to bin it rather than consume it when you were feeling so terrible. I really am full of admiration. I can't imagine the strength that must have required. Well, I can imagine it, and I know I don't have it. If you can do that, you can do anything! Trust me. People might argue that codeine is a weaker opiate, but when someone's been using it in large quantities for 4 years - that's still a fair habit and not an easy thing to conquer.

If Swiy can just keep sticking it out, things will start to get better. Swie has two tactics which have helped her get through in the past:

a) The 'acceptance' tactic. Constantly searching for ways to feel better can be demoralising and tiring in itself, and it usually gets you nowhere. I know acceptance isn't always easy, but sometimes it can help to just say to yourself, "okay - I feel like shit, but it's not going to kill me. If I stop fighting it and wait it out, it will pass - I WILL feel different soon". A big part of the bad feeling during wd comes from having spent so long taking the easy route to feeling good. It's been so long since we really had to cope with feelings with nothing to help us. So when you feel bad, the temptation is to try and find a way to fix it. And when you can't fix it, you feel worse. But really, why do we need to fix it? Bad feelings are a part of life - they come and go. Sometimes just letting them be is the best way to cope with them.

This can work for anxiety as well as all the other stuff. Anxiety thrives on the fact that we try and fight it. Swie gets panic attacks during the latter stages of wd, and in the weeks that follow. She gets anxiety that comes out of nowhere - just a horrible dark feeling that something is very wrong, or that something terrible is going to happen. She found she can help herself by asking herself, "what's the worst that can happen?" She'll usually answer, "well, I could die". Then she'll tell herself, "Okay - so I could die. So what. Worrying about it isn't going to stop it. If I die I die, and that's that." Then she will lie down and give herself up to the will of Nature, and stop fighting. She even found she gets moments of relief from RLS like this.

It can help to remind yourself what's really going on - you've had years of using a drug to help yourself cope with life, and now that you're removing the drug, it's a big shock to the system. But this is all just a process that the mind and body has to go through to normalise itself again. It's all just a part of the way of things. And if you can stop fighting and let yourself experience it, you're giving in to the healing process, which is a good thing. You're letting your body mend itself in the way it needs to, and accepting that there will be some pain as things are put back into place again. If you keep fighting for a quick way to feel better before you're ready, you're fighting the healing.

The second tactic is still about acceptance, but it's less passive.

b) The 'bring it on' tactic. Swie really understood this one when a fellow junkie was staying with her during her last cluck. It was the fourth night since her last shot, she hadn't slept at all yet, and he was sitting up with her all night (he's very kind). She had been thinking she was doing a bit better as she hadn't thrown up in a while and was even managing to involve herself in conversation a bit. Then I think she tried having something to drink, which made her get really sick. When she came back from the bathroom and got into bed she couldn't stop dry heaving. The shakes were back and she was sweating like mad. Her friend (who is always very sympathetic), suddenly said, "pull yourself together you wimp!" He was only joking of course. Then he blew on her face. She said, "what are you doing?" (she was shivvering with cold already). He said, "trying to make you colder". Suddenly she just cracked up. Then she thought, "bring it on!" She stopped trying to fight it and feel better, and just thought, "fuck it - just bring it on. I can take it! Whatever you've got in store for me - even if it's four more nights without sleep - I can take it!".

What I'm trying to say,

is that we have vast resources of strength. Way beyond what we realise half the time. You've already shown more strength than I think the majority of people would in your situation. The same friend that I mentioned above said to me during that same wd, that heroin turns us into pussies. (I'm sure it applies to other opioids too!). It's so true. I bet if you took your average non-addicted person and somehow induced withdrawal symptoms in them, they would cope a lot better with it, because they're not in the habit of fixing their problems with a quick shot or pill. They'd simply get through it because there was no other option. We on the other hand, have taught ourselves that there is another option - our drug of choice. We find it extra hard to go through the agony of withdrawal because a part of our brain thinks it's so unnecessary when we could put a stop to it in an instant.

You've already found the strength to resist that part of yourself, or you wouldn't have got as far as you have. You just need to remind yourself that you're still going through that 'corrective' period, where your mind is readjusting. Anything you feel right now needs to be seen in context, because these feelings won't last. It's so incredibly hard when you're feeling bad to believe that you're going to feel completely different in a few more weeks. But you ARE! Just keep going.

When your mind and body have finished normalising (no more PAWS in other words), you'll start to feel a strength you never knew you had, because of what you've accomplished. You'll start realising that you can do anything .

E x

P.S. Walking is a great start, but If you can find the motivation to exercise enough to raise your pulse etc, you'll probably find it helps with the anxiety and insomnia. I know how hard it is to do it, but if you were being chased by a lion, you'd run (what Swie tells herself). If you can find a way to tough it out and do a bit of aerobic exercise, it can make a big difference. If you're not up to it yet, don't worry - you'll get through this regardless - but as soon as you know you really are up to it, don't let the lethargy hold you back. Just get out there and run or something!

P.P.S. If the anxiety is really getting to you feel free to PM me. I can PM you a number to call me on if you need help getting through anxiety attacks. I've been there so many times and I know how all-encompassing those feelings can be. It can really help to have someone talk you into a new perspective. Or take missparkles up on her offer to talk - she's been through it all as you know, and is out the other side.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Absolutely fantastic insight. I love the "acceptance" and "bring it on" approaches. Both can really ...

[missparkles]

Totally agree with Esmerelda that we are all stronger than any fuckin' drug, but we allow ourselves to be brainwashed into believing that it's the only thing that can make us feel ok with ourselves. Eventually, we believe that we need it to make everything ok. BS. As you've already shown Pobb, you have the strength and determination to quit, and although you're struggling, you're still as determined. The tone of some of your posts has a sort of "fuck it, I feel like shit, but I'm not giving in." So already you're tapping into this inner strength. And the more you do it the easier it gets (my mate ex-junkie is always telling me this), and you'll begin to notice you are starting to feel more positive. It's an ever increasing circle, in the same way that addiction is the opposite, an ever decreasing circle.

Don't ever think that quitting codeine is any easier than quitting heroin, both are opiates and both are addictive. Thinking your DOC is easier to get clean from, seeing it as less of an addiction, just cos it ranks lower on some perceived scale of "hard core drugs" is self defeating. Sparkles quit heroin cold turkey, but she's tried to stop smoking and she just can't. So that makes nicotine harder to quit than heroin...right? Exactly, a drug is a drug, addiction is addiction, you can't make comparisons when it comes to giving up a drug. So why even try?

Glad the music has made you feel better. Try to make that call to the organisations I sent you the links too, they will help. Well done again love, now kick that addiction gorilla's ass, hard.
Sparkles.

[ianzombie]

Swim is delighted to hear that Swiy is sticking it out, go you!
Music has helped Swim through many a hard time and Swim could never imagine a life without some sweet tunes to pick them up when they are down.
Swim thinks that Swiy is doing a great job and should be well Proud of themselves. Swim recommends that Swiy reads back over this thread anytime they feel things are getting a bit too much or they are feeling week as there is some fantastic advice here from other hero's who pulled it together.
Things can only get better, a shitty song but great advice

Stand in front of a mirror, Pat yourself on the back and say out loud 'Screw you Solpadol, I am the man'

[Esmerelda]

Originally Posted by missparkles

Don't ever think that quitting codeine is any easier than quitting heroin, both are opiates and both are addictive. Thinking your DOC is easier to get clean from, seeing it as less of an addiction, just cos it ranks lower on some perceived scale of "hard core drugs" is self defeating.

F**k no - I wasn't saying it's easier! But I've seen at least once on this forum someone (a heroin addict) tell a codeine addict that codeine was 'just a bit of fun' compared to heroin and 'not dangerous'. I thought that was a rediculous thing to say (not to mention dangerous for encouraging people to think codeine is safe).

And then Pobb says,

even if SWIM was only using codeine...

In my previous post I just wanted to reassure pobb that I'd take what he's going through no more or less seriously whatever opiate (or drug in general for that matter) it was. This 'only codeine' business is rubbish.

I know someone who had a very genuine addiction to paracetamol. Seriously. It was my ex boyfriend's mum. She suffered from awful headaches, and her doctor eventually told her to try quitting paracetamol, because she revealed she had been taking it for years, and after continuous use it's been known to cause withdrawal headaches. She quit, and had the most horrendous week of headaches so bad she couldn't get out of bed. She couldn't move without throwing up. When eventually that passed, she felt better than she had done in years.

So, like missparkles says, addiction is addiction, no matter what the drug is. Swie knows for a fact that there are things in her life even now that she would find harder to quit forever than heroin. Chocolate for one!

[Dickon]

OK, I am going to quickly address a misconception that seems rife in the opiate section of R&A. I often see people being sent to the PAWS thread when a few days into withdrawal. The problem you are suffering Pobb is, for want of a better acronym, AWS, i.e. acute withdrawal symptoms. When you are no longer suffering from some combination of alternately freezing or boiling, unable to remain comfortable for the briefest time, gooseflesh, insomnia, time passing at an absolute crawl, cramps, nausea, [insert list of your "favourite" withdrawal symptoms here], then any remaining lethargy, anxiety, mood swings, less than perfect sleep, etc. are the post-acute withdrawal symptoms. I'd not call anything in the first 4-6 weeks of an opiate withdrawal PAWS, or possibly even 8-10 weeks if we're talking about methadone.

I think one point of view is that PAWS resembles in some sense the opposite of a withdrawal. If you look up Nigella Sativa in the file archive, I'm pretty sure the initial part of one document (a PhD thesis I think) talks about this. For instance in withdrawals one has wide eyes. In PAWS the eyes are mildly pinned. Anyway, PAWS is a long way away, and shouldn't be overplayed. Cat has in the past greatly enjoyed the time after a withdrawal, although not so much this time round.

Pobb,

I think it's fantastic you've made it to day 6 or 7. Really things should be on the mend soon. The closest cat can relate to what you're going through is a withdrawal from morphine he did about 10 years back. I'd focussed on getting through the first 7 days, and thought things would be nearly over by then. As it happened it took nearer to 10 days to be over the worst, and cat was feeling decidedly better by 14 days. Somewhere between 21 and 28 days he went to a Karate lesson and although he was definitely rather sensitive to pain, he was pretty much human by then.

I am concerned about the vodka, and the thing you mentioned in the post that you edited. I'm glad you're seeking help. I think a withdrawal is about one of the most stressful and traumatic events you can put yourself through, that some "coming out sideways" of emotions is to be expected.

You are doing so fantastically well, and although some emotional release is almost certainly a great idea, talking about how you feel, or dancing, shouting, walking, running, listening to the right kind of music (although be careful about this, as too much "dark" music can be a trigger for relapse) are far better than the alcohol and the other thing.

Remember, just hold out. All the crazy emotions, anxiety, pain, stress, sleep deprivation are predominantly the result of the codeine addiction and will pass. There almost certainly will be some underlying issues that you'll need to look at once you've got through the (acute) withdrawal, but for now the battle is simple: do not pick up any more codeine. Pretty much anything else at this stage is a bonus. I think when cat was describing his withdrawal from methadone (see Screaming in the night air) he said it wasn't about doing a withdrawal while getting marks for equable disposition or artistic merit, or some such! It's not, it's about "any which way but use". If that includes vodka and other things, so be it. The key is not to let these lead you back to codeine use. All in good time these things can be tackled.

Make this withdrawal a one off in your mind and it will be easy to succeed if you ask me. All the best of British luck.

Dickon

[nutellajunkie]

SWIM is just listening to super discount, seems to be brightening up his moments. He certainly didnt think of just blasting his ears via the pocket jukebox with some good beats. It should pass an hour at least.

and just as I had posted that I noticed dickons fabulous posting. WOW it really inspires me the support that people can get around here, the knowledge and the emotion that is felt is overwhelming.

Of course the withdrawals are horrendous, even if SWIM was only using codeine its still such a strong hold it got after such a prolonged time. And ever day feels like an eternity as im sure people will "appreciate". Just finding things to do is one of the most treacherous tasks ever, in such a small town where nothing goes apart from a cable connection.

the best of British luck is appreciated, SWIM being from Scotland that made him feel

Indeed I will continue to post the progression of SWIM as it seems to make him feel "slightly" better. Though he hasnt been able to call the help line yet, it just gets his stomach in a knot.

Thanks and much appreciation.

[nutellajunkie]

Yes its true, any drug can lead to an addiction over time. Weve all tried all sorts, and found our friendship with the one we chose. Codeine being SWIMs choice.

You know he says it almost feels like a relationship breakup. The heartache, the depression, the anxiety, it all adds up, just like he felt when he lost a loved one. Its a hell of an analogy but im sure some of you will agree.

So its what day 8 now? Gosh SWIM says its not getting any easier. Even with the drink slip up (that was only a small one) I just seems like the world is caving in on him. The bad thoughts (we will call them) are still in mind, but no action has been taken. He didnt manage to call the help line last night, so maybe tonight?

Even with SWIMs use of various "remedies", the expectation of instant recovery is just stupid. He tells me he is using Vitamin B12, Zinc, Valerian and st johns wart. Also he has been using his home made silver colloid occasionally (a whole new subject that is best googled).

SWIM thanks for continued support and advice.

[missparkles]

Firstly can Sparkles apologise if her misunderstanding about the difference between WD and PAWS led to any confusion for Pobb.

The analogy between quitting a drug, and a relationship breakdown, is not so far from the truth. Sparkles longest love was heroin. It was the thing she put before everything else,(even her children) it was the only thing that could make her feel ok about herself, and it was always there for her. It didn't care if she looked like a sack of shit, it never got upset about her opinions or ideas, it never judged her, and it was consistent. It remained as true at the end as it was in the beginning. What Sparkles didn't realise was that her lover, the one she called heroin, was an abusive fucker. He'd make her feel loved and accepted, be there through everything, but if she ever indicated she might wanna leave him, he gave her a beating that worked as effectively at preventing that, as any real life relationship abuser. Soon, just the memory of the beating, and the fear of the one that might come if she even thought about leaving their relationship, was enough to stop her even considering it. Eventually the loving partner, who only gave her the occasional smack in the mouth, and only to prove to her that he loved her and she couldn't live without him, became the norm. What was once viewed with fear, had become just another aspect of their unique relationship. She assumed that every other person in a relationship with heroin was experiencing the same, and they hadn't left, so it must be normal. And this is the fuckin' deviousness of addiction.

The only difference is that every pain, every feeling of fear, all the shit that Sparkles accepted as normal, was her choice. She stayed because she chose to. Very much like any abuse victim, she was too afraid of the consequences of leaving to actually do it. But when she did pluck up the courage to say "enough is enough" she was surprised by her feelings. Much like an abusive partner Sparkles forgot about the pain over time, and could only remember the good part. Without such a supportive partner, she started to miss feeling cared for, would hate the loneliness of having nothing in her life. Hell, she even went back to the abusive bastard...lots of times. Eventually she decided if she had to be abused to feel good she'd rather feel bad and be pain free, she realised if she needed pain to convince her that she was loved and valued she'd rather be unloved and feel worthless. And that's exactly what she got at first. But in time, when her head cleared, and the indoctrination her drug seemed to have used on her began to diminish, she began to see the situation for what it was. Similar to cult victims after their removal from a cult I suppose? And slowly she began to care, love and value herself. The more she did this the more abnormal her previous abuse became.

Her relationship with heroin lasted for three quarters of her life, it was all she knew, and even now she misses the warmth it gave her. But she doesn't miss the abuse. She sees herself as a survivor, a strong person who managed to leave the most abusive partner in the world. And like Pobb, she feels proud of her achievement. Today nothing, not a person or a drug controls her life, she doesn't have to please anyone but herself. How she feels is her responsibility, every situation can be dealt with, she doesn't need anything to do it for her. That's an incredibly powerful feeling, but it does have a downside. It's called awareness. This awareness prevents her from using excuses to justify her inability to deal with a situation or uncomfortable feeling. And being unable to lie to herself means she can no longer pick up a drug without realising that there's another way to deal with whatever is bothering her. That it's her choice. Nothing is bad enough, too difficult to cope with, or too much too handle, that she needs to get wasted. It's almost like no longer having the option to use.

Apologies for this novel length post, Pobb, but your analogy was so accurate, it sorta took hold of her. Sparkles has always used a human personality to understand her addiction, it's given her something she can actually identify, as opposed to just calling it addiction. This has really helped her. And maybe this is relevant to Pobb, but like people who have been in abusive relationships, they often go from one abuser to another, believing that the way a person shows they care, is by hurting them. Perhaps the self harm issues we've discussed via PM are related to this? After all addiction is pain, and sometimes the pain can become the addiction, or a release for the pain. Sparkles has also gone on to become addicted to other drugs in the past, she believed that not taking heroin would stop the pain, it didn't, she just swapped one abuser for another.

Sparkles also wants to point out that although she uses partner abuse as a comparison, she's in now way equating addiction to domestic abuse.

Sparkles.