Trichocereus vs Peyote

[Cyano]

What reason could one have to grow Peyote instead of Trichocereus
cacti? Trichocereus grows much faster and produces more mescaline in
the same time. Does Peyote give a better effect?

[transit]

Originally Posted by Cyano

Does Peyote give a better effect?

Peyote and San Pedro have a different alkaloid mix, although
mescaline is the dominant active alkaloid in both. </span>As such they give somewhat different
experiences. </span>As for which is better, that
is a matter of personal preference.


Reportedly one can have the peyote experience by using
Trichocereus sourced mescaline along with one peyote button, rather than the
larger number of peyote buttons typically used in an experience based only on
peyote.

[GDxCAT]

Cyano actually peyote has more mescaline by weight than trichocerius cactii.

[Cyano]

Yes, of course Peyote contains more mescaline, but if one had the pure
alkaloids of both, would the extra other types of alkaloids in Peyote
be worth the trouble?

I am planning to grow cacti indoors under artificial light. I have to choose between Trichocereus and Peyote.

Peyote I would grow like this: I will saw 72 Peyote cacti, put them in
5cm (2 Inch) pots and place them in 3 rows of 24 cacti under 2
fluoroscent lights of 120cm (4 feet) long. One year later I do the
same. Also the third year, the fourth and the fifth year. (I assume
that they are ready to harvest in 5 years). Then I have 72 cacti that
are 5 years old, 72 that are 4 years old, 72 that are 3 years old and
so on. After 3 Years of growth I probably will have to use larger
pots/more flouroscent tubes. After 5 years I could harvest 72 cacti
(6x12cacti making 6 portions a year) each year. I also would have to
saw 72 new cacti each year.

Trichocereus (probably Peruvianus) I would grow like this: I will saw
12 cacti and place them in 2 rows of 6 cacti under flouroscent tubes.
When they are small I place them in smaller pots saving
light/electricity. Eventually I place them in 20cm (8 inch) pots in 2
rows of 6 cacti under 6 fluoroscent tubes of 120cm (4 feet) long. My
intention is to let them grow for 4 years. If they grow 30 cm (1 foot)
a year, after 4 years they would be 120cm (4 feet) long and each cactus
should represent 2 portions. (also 6 portions a year) When they get
larger I also have to light them from the sides. (1 tube every 30cm
(foot) length)

Which method would be best or is there a better one? (for various reasons I don´t want to use Metal Halide Lamps)

[cactus]

i wouldnt bother growing peruvianus under lights, they grow quick enough outdoors. Peyote is much more rewarding to grow. i got mine under lights and they flower every week, in 6 months they are 50% bigger (under 1000MH) but its not worth growing them alone

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

In my experience, T. Peruvianus is not as reliable as T. Pachanoi or T.
Bridgesii in producing alkaloids. In other words, there seems to
be greater likelihood of getting a weak Peruvianus than a Pachanoi or
Bridgesii. Also it is easier to identify pachanoi and bridgesii
for certain, than it is to identify peruvianus for certain. Many
trichcereus hybrids can look like peruvianus. A lot of people
even confuse Stetsonia Coryne with T. Peruvianus, especially with young
plants.



Agree with cactus, grow the trichocereus outside if you can where you live.



One thing about trichocereus species, they naturally branch, and can be
cut or injured in ways to stimulate branching. Given the same
number of starting plants, you have the potential to wind up with more
at the 5-year mark in sheer quantity than peyote.



Why do you "have" to choose? Why not grow some of all of
it? That way, you can be rewarded with a journey from your
trichocereus after the first year, and each year after that, while you
are waiting on the peyote to be ready.

[Cyano]

The problem is that I have only a small balkony for outdoorgrow.
Besides that the weather in NL, where I live, is not very good. This
summer, for example, is a bad one again.

Indoor growing costs space and money. I´m afraid I cannot grow both ones at the same time.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Sorry for that. Maybe your weather (climate) is not as cacti
friendly as mine here in the Sonora Desert. But the political
climate, as far as drugs, especially cannabis, is much more favorable
there in NL.



I guess we'll have to envy eachother's better points.



Still, in your situation, I'd say go with the T. Pachanoi and T.
Bridgesii, given your situation; for fastest growth, and best long term
repeat harvestability of the cacti. Maybe just have one
lophophora in there for the practice of growing it, and for the beauty
of looking at it

[Cyano]

I also believe that with Trichocereus types it is easier to produce
alkaloids. I also would have a considerable lesser number of cacti. For
me it is easier to grow a few plants than a lot. With a few cacti I
know every cacti and can give him special attention. With a lot (360
Peyotes after 5 years) this is not possible.

Unfortunately I already bought 60 Peruvianus seeds. I hope there will be not to many weak ones amongst them.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Seeds??!!



My, you DO want to wait a long time, don't you! Though I do salute your ambition in starting from seeds.



You should be starting your garden off with cuttings. Get
cuttings of Trichocereus Pachanoi and Trichocereus Bridgesii. If
you start off with good cuttings of known alkaloidal profile, you'll
have a crop to taste within one year. By seed, it'll take you
many years until harvest.



There are many places on the internet you can buy good cuttings.
But there is a free method to obtain cuttings. It's called
swapping.



When you swap, you trade any seeds, cuttings, or dried herbs you may
have on hand, for something someone else has on hand. The only
money involved, is each person in the trade pays his own postage to
send his trade stock to the other person.



There is such a place, I am a member there too, that deals in trading
ethnobotanical seeds, cuttings, and herbs. It is not a commercial
site or business, so I hope it does not violate the rules to post the
link. If it does, moderators please delete the link from this
post.



http://botanicalswap.org/mx/index.php



It is strictly a place to trade. The type of posts you see here
on drugs-forum, regarding usage tips or trip reports, are not allowed
there.

One can only trade there, and post questions or tips on cultivation of the plants.



Trading internationally happens all the time. One should not
trade/send plants to a country where that plant is illegal. Also
when trading internationally, live plants need to be either cuttings or
bare root. Most countries customs departments will not allow a
shipment in if there is soil in the package, as they do not want to
risk the spread of plant diseases, or insects. When trading from one person
to another in the same country, shipping live plants in soil is
generally allowed, depending on the country.






Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Here is a partial list of the plants I have been able to obtain for
myself, for free (less postage costs) by trading over the last 3 years,
all cacti and succulents:




Fouquiria Spendens (3 each)

Fouquiria Columnaris

Fouquiria Macdougalii (2 each)

Hesperaloe Parviflora (2 each)

Agave Americana (2 each)

Sceletium Torturosum (10 each; some in ground, some in hanging baskets)

Agave Victoria Reginae

Euphorbia Tircicalli

Euphorbia Fruticosa

Euphorbia Leucodendron

Beaucarnea Recurvata

Trichocereus Terscheckii

Trichocereus Pachanoi (12 each)

Trichocereus Bridgesii (3 each)

Trichocereus Peruvianus (5 each)

Trichocereus Candicans

Carnegiea Gigantea

Optunia Ficus Indica (3 each)

Pachycereus pringlei

Pachycereus Marginatus

Pacycereus Pectin Arboriginum (2 each)

Epostoa Melanostele

Cereus Peruvianus

Hylocereus Polyrhizus

Gymnocalycium Denudatum

Ubelmannia Pectinifera

Oreocereus Celsianus

Mamillaria Pringlei

Ariocarpus Retusus (2 each)

Ariocarpus Fissuratus (2 each)

Epithelantha Micromeris (3 each)

Cereus Aethiops

Echinocactus Grusonii

Optunia Basilarus

Optunia Engelmannii

Stetsonia Coryne (3 each)

Mamillaria Nejapensis

Notocactus Roseoluteus

Myrtillocactus Geometrizans

Gymnocalycium Baldianum

Trichocereus Spachianus (2 each)

Lophophora Caespitosa (1 with own roots, 1 grafted to Trichocereus)

Notocactus Magnificus

Gymnocalycium Saglionis

Notocactus Schlosseri

Polaskia Chichipe

Echinocereus Merkeri

Stenocereus Pruinosus



I have many other genera of plants besides cacti and succulents in my garden, also obtained by trading. Give it a try.



Please note that none of the plants on my list are up for trade, I'm
just growing them out. This post is not an attempt to use
drugs-forum as a place to trade. It's just an example of what is
possible for you other people out there, if you decide to get into
trading yourselves.



As I mentioned, I am also a member of the Botanical Swap Project.
If I had anything to trade (which I don't at the moment), it
would be posted over on that forum. So please do not PM me here asking
for plants. I expect to have some offerings for trade in a few
more months, after some of my stuff grows out a little more. When
I do, they will be listed over at the BSP.

</span>
Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo

[Cyano]

Yes, seeds take some time. I know a place here where they sell 15-20cm
(6to 8 inch) unrooted cuttings for 7,50 Euro. But I did not buy them
instead of seeds because I am afraid they need some time to adjust to
my environment. Last year I bought a 2 feet cutting for consumption and
received, with that order, a free 3 inch cactus. I put him behind the
window and it took several month until he got the growth pattern that
my other cacti behind the window have. (Due to poor light conditions
they grow quite thin) Rooting takes some time as adjusting to their new
environment. I thought I could just as well use seeds. For a quick
harvest I can still put my window cacti under the lights.

Another reason I chose seeds is that I want to have a lot of cacti so I
can select those that grow best under artificial light. I hope, in the
long run, this way I get the most out of my electric bill. I am afraid
to use to much electricity because than they might suspect me of
growing marijuana. Growing cacti is legal around here, marijuana is
not. Smoking and possessing small amounts of MJ is tolerated here but
not entirely legal. Growing is not legal at all. They tolerate 4 plants
at the most.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

I wish I could be "tolerated with 4 plants"



For what you are trying to do, with the natural selection of plants
that like the artificial light, the seeds might be best route.



Though a lot of people who trade, live up north somewhere in the world
like you do, and they are also growing under artificial light. Maybe a
trade from someone with similar lighting conditions would suit you?

[Cyano]

It´s getting worse here too. One has not to be afraid of criminal
charges. People with up to 1.000 plants often (if they are busted the
first time) are sentenced only for 180-240 hours of public service. But
they say you earned so much money and you have to pay it back.
You also have to pay taxes over the criminal income. If you are growing
in an appartement the corporation, from who you rented the appartement,
can throw you out. Not because it is forbidden but because they say
those lamps are dangerous (are not made for use in appartements), the
appartement is not meant for commercial activities and the moisture is
ruining the appartement. It is difficult to find a new appartement with
another corporation. They put your name on a black list.

I do not know if the people who trade cacti here are growing them under
lamps. I think they have greeenhouses. But I will ask next time I come
there. Cuttings are of course much faster but if not I have to buy
cacti for consumption until my first harvest.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

Yea, they are growing them with lamps. I read the threads about
that, but don't have much to say in there because I grow in the
sun. Interesting reading though.



Some report growing cacti under florescent lamps successfully.
That would seem to be ideal for an apartment situation, as the heat and
electrical consumption are low. Also cacti prefer dryer to bone
dry soil most of the time, so water making humidity/moisture will be
less of a problem.

[Cyano]

I would prefer a metal halide lamp but that could bring me into
problems. Or I have to buy a metal halide designed for use in large
fishtanks. (deeper than 18 inch, for growth of waterplants or corals))
These are made for indoor use, but they are far more expensive than
those designed for additional lighting in greenhouses. Besides that
they come with compact metal halide bulbs with a shorter lifespan.
These bulbs are also more expensive.

TL5 fluorescents seem the best in my opinion. (also often used for
fishtanks) The are only 16mm thick (40% less surface than the usual T8
fluorescents which are 26mm thick) In the high output version
they have 54 Watt for a 4 feet long bulb. The lumen output is above
4.000 lumen. Together with their smaller surface they produce a more
intense light than T8 bulbs. They are available in daylight colour
(6.500 Kelvin) and produce a very good lightspectrum. After 10.000
hours of use they still produce 90% of the lumen output of a new bulb.
With fluorescent it is also easier to light the cacti not only from
above but also from the sides. For use in fishtanks one can also get
high quality reflectors.

[BrugmansiaBrujo]

One definitely has to weigh the benefits and distractors of the different types of lighting.



Cost of fixtures and bulbs, electricity consumption costs, heat production, side lighting ability, etc.



I think one should also look in to ventilation, regardless of the types
of lights being used. Good ventilation is necessary to keep down
humidity damage to the place, and to help with the regulation of pests
of all sorts ( bacteria, molds, fungi, insects) that could benefit from
still/stale air. The better ventilation solutions would involve
some kind of exhaust to the outside of the building.



Also ventilation allows for a more constant supply of CO2 to the
plants, which they need. If closed in and un-ventilated, they
will expend most all of the CO2 and make oxygen as part of their
photosynthesis. Some people like to have a bottle/tank of CO2
with some kind of regulator to allow a slow addition of CO2 to the
growing area. But that may be undeeded expense and complication
if simple ventilation, preferably gently forced ventilation, is
incorporated into the grow area.


Edited by: BrugmansiaBrujo

[Cyano]

My plan is to let the heat of the lamps take care of the ventilation.
The lamps heat up the air, warm air rises and sucks in fresh air from
the bottom of the growing chamber. Since cacti grow slow and consume
little water, as you mentioned earlier, I hope that the airflow
generated by the warm lights is enough to supply the cacti with enough
CO2. For Marihuana growing this wouldn´t be enough (1 square meter
consumes 4-7 liters of water a day) and one has to blow it out of the
room. With cacti I hope that this is not necessary. In the winter the
heating makes the air dry and in summer I leave a window open. Fans
make noise and can lead to complains of the neighbours. In the
marihuana growshops here one can buy silenced ventilators but they are
quite expensive.

Adding CO2 from a bottle/tank is also not so easy. CO2 is heavier than
air and sinks to the ground, where it is of no use to the plants. One
has to constantly blow it up from the ground. You need large
oscillating fans to do this. To not lose the CO2 and maintain high CO2
levels, the growing chamber must be airtight. This raises the humidity.
Constant ventilation would blow out the CO2, the bottle would be empty
quick and the CO2 level would not reach 1.500 ppm (adviced for MJ
growing). When using CO2, one has to blow the air out of the building
in order to prevent accumulation of CO2 in the room. Otherwise it gets
dangerous. CO2 can displace all the oxygen in the room, causing
asphyxiation/death from lack of oxygen.

One could also raise CO2 levels in the room through fermentation.
(making wine) This would not be so effective (and dangerous) as using
CO2 from a tank, but is better than nothing. But I also grow mushrooms
and am afraid of an extra contamination risk from yeast bacteria in the
air. But if my idea of the growing chamber doesn´t work I do have to
make some adjustments.

[jaguarangel]

Peyote is an endangered species. It would be wonderful if people grew more of it. Trichocereus would also be good to grow. Peyote takes 10 years until maturity. 5 years for trichs. Why not grow both?