SEROTONIN And MDMA

[umich]

Hey guys I decided to buy some 5-HTP for the next time I roll. I hear it lessens the neurotoxicity and makes for an easier comedown. But I've heard many different ways of using it. Some use it before for a better roll but I've heard that can be harmful. Generally I've heard to take a pill or two every day for the next few days after your roll. Any suggestions on how to use it would be great, thanks.

[Alfa]

That depends if you preload or take it afterwards. If you preload it will get you higher and thus increase neurotoxicity. If you take it afterwards it will replenish serotonin shortage.

[Tony Blair]

I've always believed if you pre-load, it diminishes your roll.. Any hard evidence anywhere?



I take 100mg or so for a week or so after I drop. (and have never had a come down)..

[opiumjade7]

My two cents: when I've taken 5-HTP beforehand, I haven't noticed any
difference, and definitely not a positive one. However, I find that taking
one or two pills daily for a week after a roll helps keep my mood positive
and my energy levels up (otherwise, I tend to feel just a little down and
depressed). I definitely recommend it for afterwards. I've also heard that
taking St. John's Wort for about a week beforehand can make the
experience better as a whole. I intend to experiment with this and post
my results later.

[Gareth]

Alright, to really answer that we need to understand HOW ecstacy is
neurotoxic. Unfortunately, that hasn't been discovered yet but a
leading hypothesis is this:



A severe shortage of serotonin after consumption of ecstacy is what
eventually leads to the damage. Dopamine is thought to be transported
back into the serotonin nerve axon instead of serotonin istelf (this is
not meant to happen). When inside the axon terminal, dopamine, a
foreign object, is attacked and broken down. Unfortunately this process
results in hydrogen peroxide (please double check that if you'd like,
but you may substitute any harmfull chemical in this place and it would
suffice for the example). The peroxide (acting in a similar way to
bleach), destroys the axon.



Based on this theory (and it's the one I subscribe to), having as much
serotonin available as is possible, is beneficial. Preloading means
that there is more of the chemical to be released (better high), but
I'm of the oppinion that it doesn't result in a lower 'low' in the
downer. I think it actually results in more serotonin left over
afterwards (meaning less dopamine to be sucked back into the axon and
do damage). Of course, still theory, but an educated one supported by
many. Taking 5-htp afterwards is DEFINITELY WISE. If you've got that
glee product, you should be taking around 6 in the come-down. Maybe 6
the next day and slowly diminish this. After a few days, do it by how
you feel, because all damage has already been done.



Therefor, I dont believe 5-htp can harm you in any way.



I will never take ecstacy again without this: prozac. It's proven to
effectively block the reuptake of dopamine into the axon. It prevents
all damage. You'll still feel down (enter 5-htp) for a few days, but
your brain will be 100% intact. And the prozac will help to restore the
levels in record time. Find a way to get it, then research it. And take
it IMMEDIATELY in the comedown. Taking it during the peak means that it
will prevent serotonin being released quickly (good by peak). Taking it
too much later will mean the damage has been done already.



Also: LOTS OF ANTIOXIDANTS (to prevent the peroxide doing further
damage), and vitamins, because your immune system just took a huge blow
(especially C, its a potent antioxidant as well). Magnesium will
probably help with jaw clenching.



Important note: IT CAN TAKE UP TO 6 WEEKS FOR YOUR SEROTONIN TO FULLY
RESTORE. ALSO, WHEN YOU BOMBARD YOUR RECEPTORS LIKE THIS, THEY 'LOSE
FEELING' (IE BECOME USED TO IT AND THEREFOR ARENT AS RECEPTIVE). IT IS
UNKOWN AT WHAT QUANTITIES OR PERIODS THIS OCCURS, BUT AT SOME POINT IT
WILL HAPPEN AND IT MAY NEVER RETURN TO NORMAL AGAIN. TAKE ECSTACY
SPARINGLY.

[anjin]

My theory why pre-loading 5-htp can diminish rolls:

Raising 5-ht levels by pre-loading 5-htp may result in increased break down of serotonin and downregulation of the 5-ht receptors?

[Gareth]

Yea, the desensitization (I think thats what you mean by
downregulation?), might be more afflicted with more serotonin to do it.
I've always thought, hey, you're releasing 1000x more serotonin than
you're supposed to, whats another few molecules gonna go?



And I think (but I'm not 100%), that it's the dopamine that causes
damage inside the serotonin axon terminal, not the serotonin itself.
Instead of breaking it down, the terminal tries to reuse the serotonin.

[Tony Blair]

Everyone I know personally has said that pre-loading with 5-htp diminishes the quality of the E.

[Micklemouse]

Be careful post loading with SSRI's - the studies so far have been done on rats, not people, and SSRI's block the reuptake of serotonin, but do nothing to actually replenish it. So while blocking the uptake axons, effectively preventing serotonin and dopamine entering, you could also be in danger of overloading on serotonin itself, which carries dangers of its own. Run a search on Serotonin Syndrome and MOAI's.

In my experience, pre loading with 5htp makes for a very messy time, boosting the experience to uncoordinated and generally embarrassing levels. Post loading is definitely recommended though, as is topping up on the old vit B complex and magnesium.

[whatwhybecause]

yea i agree with most of the stuff that has been posted here. preloading is simply a waste of time as 5htp does not enhance E experiences. moreover, postloading effectively enhances come down experience as it prevents crashing, however overloading can cause excessive serotonin levels leading to Serotonin Syndrome, as acknowledged already.


thing is tho, as E has depleted your serotonin levels already, the chances of 5htp influencing an overload is highly unlikely.


the best advice that i was ever given was actually by a dr after i had ended up in hospital due to other things; eat loads of fruit before takin E as this builds up your immune system, strengthens your gums (counteracts ulcers etc after gurning!!) and such like; roll, then 5htp on comedown.


it seems to work for me, but again, every person is different. also, if 5htp really was harmful, the chances of them selling it commercially on the high street would be low. get the ones with vit b supplements and youll be laughing!

[matti_2003]

Swim thinks 5-HTP is best used afterwards to make the come down less harsh. Swim has never tried before but has heard it makes your experience on pills not as good

[umich]

So when do you guys think I should take the 5-HTP. Right after the peak, 1 hour later, when I wake up the next day? Should I take 1 or 2 a day? Thanks

[whatwhybecause]

i cope best if take afta peaked, about an hour before comedown. i kno its nt easy to predict, bt it needs to b in system before you crash. take it wen ya get home, once in morning, once before sleep for a couple of days - usually does it for me

[sands of time]

Its not a bad idea to take some B complex as well the day after and so on.

[RoboCop]

Could someone tell me the difference between L-tryptophan and 5-htp? Is L-typtophan stronger? I personally know where to get some pure L-typtophan powder, would this be of any more use than 5-htp?

[whatwhybecause]

i cant rememba the reasons y but they say not to use l_t altho am sure therell b summin on blulite bout it!

[anjin]

The rate limiting enzyme l-tryptophan hydroxylase (i think its called) that mediates the reaction l-tryptophan->5-htp is inhibited very rapidly after taking mdma and may be inhibited for 2 wks after.

So 5-htp should be the best pick.

Question is if you should take vit b6 with it...

[whatwhybecause]

yea u shud - most commercial presentations of 5htp inc that neway whetha ya like it or nt!

[Gareth]

What anjin said. 5htp just misses out a step in the chain. Weight for weight, I think 5htp is actually around 5x more effective.

[SPEEDY_PILLTIER]

Hey I am use MDMA about once a month to go Raving . I am well educated about that drug. My question is Does Ginkgo Biloba Help prevents neurotoxity. The possible neurotoxic effects from MDMA are from free radicals and Oxidative stress. And from reading about ginkgo biloba it protects agaisnt those 2 exact effects. Does anyone know if this will actually protect my brain.


Peace !!

[Tony Blair]

Nah, it wont actually protect your brain..



Although - I get a bit of a kick from Ginkgo, especially if I havent
eaten too much that day. It can make you even more hyper chatty,
andnot feeling so groggy on the comedown (if you suffer with them) is a good thing.



Sometimes MDMA can constrict certain blood routes, hence why some
people get cold hands / feet. Ginkgo is often used to improve
circulation, so could help with that.

[Unsolved]

Try the 5-htp supplement. It helps protect your brain and helps you feel better after the comedown.

[sterling77]

Well ginkgo biloba is undoubtedly an antioxidant, and I have read about using antioxidants to combat damage from mdma. Therefor I would think ginkgo would help, do you guys have any substantial reasons against it?

[daeron]

i wouldnt recommend ginko because it can elevate your blood pressure...and we all know that it is high enough when youre on mdma.for the day after its ok.I know that people say that ginko is safe and all but thats if you use it without any other stimulants,so be careful,as i said before there have been cases of aneurisms.


here is a list of things swim and his friends use before,during and after the roll:


piracetam,vit C,E,B6,B1,B2,B12,nicotinamide,Zn,Ca and Mg+various aminoacids and of course 5htp.also swim carries a baggie of salt cos there is always some too much water drinking idiot around...Over the night swim uses from 1000 to 3000mg of vit C.yes this is a deliberate but slight overdosing,it is not taken all at once but if i have to choose between oxidative stress and a prospect of diarrhea(thats what od on vit c looks like)...well the answer is obvious.

[Dimitri]

I strongly recommend to read this article:

Phenethylamines, Free Radicals, and Antioxidants
Brian Leibovitz, Ph.D.

This information is for those who experiment with phenethylamines as well as those with patients who use these compounds. Phenethylamines are a class of compounds chemically, and functionally, related to adrenaline -- the fight or flight neurotransmitter made from the amino acid tyrosine. Phenethylamines all contain a benzene (C6H6) ring linked to an ethylamine (-CH2-CH2-NH2) group, and include: amphetamine (a stimulant), ephedrine (a naturally-occurring decongestant), and methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, a psychotherapeutic agent that facilitates communication).

Studies in the last few years have established that phenethylamines can undergo redox cycling, a ping pong-like process that liberates copious quantities of oxygen free radicals. Free radicals are substances with extra, unpaired electrons, whose characteristic is reactivity, and whose hallmark is cell biochemical and cellular damage. Indeed, oxygen radicals are linked to a wide variety of diseases and conditions, including: heart disease, stroke, cancer, emphysema, and neurologic disorders. While our body has mechanisms to protect against the steady-state levels of radicals, excessive amounts overwhelm the protective systems and damage ensues.2 Incidentally, free radicals are not always the bad guys; our white blood cells produce, and use, free radicals as the primary means of killing bacteria, viruses, and other microbial invaders.

Phenethylamines are stored in highest concentrations in the brain and nervous system. Not surprisingly, these tissues are at the greatest risk for being harmed by free radicals (and associated oxidants) formed during the redox cycling of phenethylamines. Moderate intakes appear to be handled well. Excessive quantities of phenethylamines, however, may cause oxidative damage as the protective mechanisms just can t handle the load. It is the overproduction of radicals that causes, in large part, the fatigue and mental dysfunction associated with sustained amphetamine abuse.

The key, as always, is protection, and knowing the mechanism of action can only yield one conclusion: those who take phenethylamines should also take antioxidant supplements. All phenethylamines are prooxidants by nature, and can redox cycle. This means that there will be a dose-dependent increase in free radical production, so even at a low dose there will be free radical generation to some extent. Therefore, if one takes phenethylamines, it would be prudent to take supplemental antioxidants as well. This includes both the water-soluble (e.g., vitamin C and glutathione) as well as fat-soluble (e.g., vitamin E) antioxidants. Other important antioxidants include: selenium (the coordinating mineral for the enzyme glutathione peroxidase) and beta-carotene (a quencher of singlet oxygen - - a non-radical form of activated oxygen). Bioflavonoids are also indicated, not only for their direct antioxidant effects, but because they are good metal- chelating agents (and so prevent iron from catalyzing reactions that generate free radicals). Studies in both animals and (to a lesser extent) humans document the protective effects of antioxidants against the radical-mediated, untoward side-effects of phenethylamines.

I suggest that the combination of vitamins, minerals, and non-vitamin nutrients listed in Table 1 would be valuable for the prevention and/or treatment of the adverse effects that may result from phenethylamine overdose or overuse. There is nothing magic about the doses listed; it is my best estimate based on present knowledge in nutrition. Note that N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) is recommended instead of glutathione as it is more effective in raising tissue glutathione levels; in addition, it is less expensive than preformed glutathione. L-Carnitine and CoQ10 have also been included, as both are known to increase cellular energy (adenosine triphosphate, or ATP) generation, thereby enhancing cellular integrity.

The bottom line is that, by using an appropriate combination of antioxidants and other nutritional supplements, one can ameliorate the prooxidant, and potentially harmful, side-effects of high-dose phenethylamines.