Psychedelics/empathogens and "waves"

[nnizzle]

SWIM couldn't find a thread about this and also couldn't decide where to put it... he figured this was a better place than the euphoric mind as he is interested if anyone has any insight into the science behind it. Anyway...
SWIM doesn't know if this is true for everyone, but in his experience and the experiences he has heard from other ocean dwelling creatures, MDMA, for example, seems to come in "waves", ie once one comes up, yes there will always be a state of heightened euphoria, but at different times the euphoria/other effects will magnify for a little while, then come back down to the "normal" state. In his experience, this is also the case for opiods (although he has only tried hydro/oxycodone, so doesn't know much about the opiates, but assumes this is generally the case). SWIM had his first LSD trip yesterday, and this seemed to also be the case. He was tripping for some time, but at most times he would be able to function relatively well (ie hold a simple conversation), however there were points were he felt he just didn't have the capacity to say what he was thinking, nevertheless stand up from his relaxed position. As SWIM has never taken insane amounts of every drug (besides alcohol, which he feels doesn't really apply to this idea), he can't say whether these "waves" are present when, for example, one takes 500mcg of LSD or so much heroin that one nearly falls asleep due to incredible ecstasy, so perhaps this idea won't make sense to some people.
SWIM's point is, does anyone think this could perhaps give SWIUs some insight into the science behind many drugs? i.e. we know that LSD primarily agonizes 5HT-2A receptors, yet do not know exactly why this causes such a marked change in perception, other than the fact that many psychedelics act in similar ways and serotonin is responsible for many aspects of perception. The idea of waves confuses SWIM, as he is pretty sure that LSD agonizes the receptors for a period of time, then, as most drugs do, leaves the body through many different pathways. Why then, wouldn't the trip be equally intense during the entire peak?
Perhaps SWIM is missing an obvious reason for this, or perhaps there is already an explanation, as he is just beginning his quest into the science behind recreational drugs, but if not, food for thought.
SWIM gives thanks to all who can offer some insight.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great thread idea

[Trogdor]

I've been asking swim and he has no idea at all about what the reason could be, but he did say that he too noticed this for most of his drugs. Here are the drugs that swim has found came in waves and those he found didn't

-drugs that did-
amphetamine (swim has found this with every different amphetamine he has taken. These waves a very very strong if swim hadn't gotten much/any sleep the previous night, it becomes back and forth from almost pass-out while walking to feeling tweaked as all hell)
LSD
weed (only very mildly and it doesn't occur all the time. usually only the more "psychedelic"ish strains)
diphenhydramine *ugh*
ketamine (probably the biggest waves here.)

-drugs that didn't-
alcohol (don't really consider this a drug, its more of a "drug")
DXM (maybe it did, swim doesn't think it did though. it's been a while since swim has robo'd)

these are all the ones swim remembers specifically (ie: done in the past year).

[nnizzle]

Thanks man I appreciate the info! Good to know what it's like on substances SWIM hasn't encountered yet. Good to know amphetamines and ketamine especially do it... too bad that expands the range of drug classes which seem to have this effect, because SWIM was thinking perhaps it had to do with serotonin receptors (ie because psychedelics/MDMA work primarily on them). That means we're talking about NMDA (ketamine), histaminergic (diphenhydramine), dopaminergic and norepinephrinergic (amphetamines) systems also. SWIM doesn't know as much about these drugs so he was looking at some info on ketamine and apparently ketamine has been known to be an opiod receptor agonist too (although apparently only at anesthetic levels so probably isn't relevant). So it seems as though the wave nature is present in many different drugs that have many different actions and effects on the brain... perhaps it is not related to certain receptors, but what areas of the brain they may have an effect on. If SWIY thinks of anything else please update!

[Trogdor]

scratch the amphetamine. swim just realized that the amphetamine experiences he was basing this off of were mostly adderall which swim believe the waves were due to the different metabolism rates of the four different salts.

[lem]

SWIM notes that nutmeg elicits these "waves" of intensity with its effects, most notable around the onset of, and during the peak.

While I was reading your post, nnizzle, a thought I had consistently was the natural rhythms of the brain and consciousness (never read into them, but I vaguely recall our brains having the equivalent of a clock crystal, a base frequency generator, that allows consciousness). Perhaps drugs just amplify the regular cycles of consciousness.

I guess observing one's focus/attention, thought patterns etc during regular consciousness might provide insight?

[nnizzle]

Do you mean brain waves? Because I read up about them as that is a though I had but they magnitudes faster than the sort of waves psychedelics produce.

[lem]

Yep I meant brain waves. As far as I recall, there's a few overall frequencies of brain waves, such as beta (normal waking consciousness), delta (sleep), alpha (meditative state), and I think theta as well. It's almost undoubted that various drugs would influence which waves were present in the brain.

In addition to those general frequencies, I was thinking of specific patterns in one's thinking (and their corresponding frequency patterns in the brain). Say you have a base frequency resembling an alpha brain state, the individual's unique pattern of thinking would be an additional pattern of frequencies on top of that alpha base state. The drugs such as MDMA, nutmeg etc which produces "waves", may just be amplifying the person's regular brain waves, but also inducing waves of the other types (such as alpha and maybe even delta?). Would be nice to own an EEG

Of course I'm speaking entirely from intuitive thought here, I have no references to back up anything that I'm saying :S .. just putting ideas out there

Next time SWIM uses particular substances, he'll pay more attention.