Health - GHB: is it neurotoxic or not?

[mindreaper]

SWIM remembers reading this thread a few months back, it was about a recent study which concluded that GHB was neurotoxic, especially at lower doses (!):
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...&highlight=GHB

This left SWIM very much confused, since SWIM had previously read that GHB was one of the least toxic drugs (providing one doesn't mix it with alcohol). This lack of toxicity has been documented by studies since the '50s, so this new study doesn't seem to make sense.

Has anyone looked into this study further? Has there been any more findings on the subject since? Do you think it is safe to ingest GHB?

[5HT-Receptor]

Hi,

SWIM thinks it is not neurotoxic. Wikipedia even states it has neuroprotective properties. Even chronic use of GHB in experiments with rats, has not shown brain or other organ damage in rats. GHB is a substance that is naturally occuring in the human body and some foods we eat, off course in very small quantities. GHB's metabolic waste consists out of CO2 and water, both harmless to the body. Off course this does NOT mean ingesting GHB is healthy. GHB can be mentally and psychically addictive and withdrawal can be life threatening. Also GHB is easy to overdose on, even then not combined with other substances. Overdose can result in death also.

Be safe!

[mindreaper]

Thanks for SWIY's opinion. SWIM thinks exactly like SWIY. This study sounds dodgy.

[malsat]

Originally Posted by 5HT-Receptor

Hi,

SWIM thinks it is not neurotoxic. Wikipedia even states it has neuroprotective properties.1 Even chronic use of GHB in experiments with rats, has not shown brain or other organ damage in rats.2 GHB is a substance that is naturally occuring in the human body and some foods we eat, off course in very small quantities.3 GHB's metabolic waste consists out of CO2 and water, both harmless to the body.4 Off course this does NOT mean ingesting GHB is healthy. GHB can be mentally and psychically addictive and withdrawal can be life threatening. Also GHB is easy to overdose on, even then not combined with other substances. Overdose can result in death also.

Be safe!

1:I would not look to wikipedia for information on any controversial topic.
Yes, GHB is neuroprotective in the context of hypoxia, ischaemia and some head injuries. However this does not make it some magic salve for the brain. Alcohol, too, is neuroprotective in these same contexts and yet we know it to be neurotoxic in both acute and chronic use.

2:I have seen one study that stated that another study had found that there was cognitive impairment in rats given chronic(maybe subchronic?) doses equivalent to 'abusable' human doses, however I didn't have full access to that article so couldn't get the reference for the second article and have not been able to find it or any other study like it elsewhere so I would take this with a grain of salt if looked at on its own.

3:This is the same rhetoric used by governments and other anti-drug bodies in their misinformation campaigns and it pisses me all the way off. "GHB is made from drain cleaner and industrial solvent" is an essentially true statement but one which is semantically loaded with negative connotations. The same is true of this "naturally occuring" statement. GHB is naturally present in the brain. Yes. Totally true. Hydrogen peroxide is also naturally occuring in the brain and is a vicious toxin. Methanol is naturally occuring in some foods we eat and can turn you blind. Whether something is naturally occuring in the body or diet has absolutely no correlation with whether or not that substance is in any way healthy or harmless and I am pissed off and sick of hearing this "it's natural" argument in the promotion of one product or another.

4:The same is true of alcohol.

The simple fact is, we don't have enough evidence to decide one way or another whether GHB is intrinsically neurotoxic. There is at least one study (linked to at the top of this thread) which has found that GHB is neurotoxic in male rats, and possibly another study although I can't find that one (TBH this may be me recalling incorrectly). I personally am somewhat skeptical about the results of that study. I would not be hugely surpised, given my understanding of the GABA/glutamate systems, if there was some mild excitotoxicity from moderate recreational use. But from a single use? Maybe. Possibly. Probably not. "Drastic" neurotoxicity from a single use? That sounds fairly unrealistic to me. That kind of language makes me think of George Ricaurte.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...a734c226b5c742

^^This study appears to indicate that GHB can induce oxidative stress in neural tissue which would provide a mechanism for any inherent neurotoxicity and would thus provide an explanation for toxicity from a single dose. I may have seen a second study that found the same results but once again I don't know where it is and I'm not in the mood to go look.

SSADH deficiency leads to increased endogenous GHB concentrations (among other alterations in neural function) and is associated with cognitive/neurological deficits. I don't consider this as proof of anything regarding GHB's toxicity but it is something to bear in mind.

So to sum it up, we don't know. We really don't know. There is very limited evidence that GHB is inherently neurotoxic but as yet it is so limited as to be negligible. As far as I'm concerned, even if GHB does turn out to be inherently neurotoxic I don't imagine it will be anything worse than alcohol, MDMA, amphetamine, etc, ie moderate, responsible use should not cause anyone any real problems.

The thing to watch out for is abuse of GHB (& analogues) and addiction. There isn't a doubt in my mind that withdrawal from physical dependence on these substances does cause excitotoxicity in a very real way.

/grumpy rant.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Absolutely spot on Mal, thank you very much for clarifying perfectly the current thinking related to this question and l...
	Thanks, good post. Good appraisal of the situation.
	Thank you for your smart approch.
	Very nice, rational, cutting egde piece of evidence
	Yet again brilliant work Masalt, I think that your knowledge is unrivalled about GHB

[yaniczka]

Originally Posted by malsat

There is at least one study (linked to at the top of this thread) which has found that GHB is neurotoxic in male rats.

sorry 4 stupid question, swim does not understand chemistry at all, but could the fact that it shown neurotoxic in male rats mean that female rats were fine? (would be sweet ) thnks.

[MrG]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is about as up-to-date and relevant as we can be with what is currently known about GHB and neurotoxicity.

Thanks Malsat, good job.

[mindreaper]

Malsat: SWIM had read some of your previous notes on the subject, which he found enlightening, and was kind of hoping you would contribute to SWIM's thread, which you have now. Thank you. Not being a scientific kind of guy, SWIM had to look up a few words to fully understand your post but SWIM loves your unbiased stance and the fact your answers are so detailed. Your post is what SWIM calls a useful post.

[mindreaper]

^^They probably had to select either male or female because sometimes one gender can respond differently to the other. This said, it's likely that neurotoxicity would occur in female rats too (if indeed GHB was neurotoxic).

[yaniczka]

Originally Posted by mindreaper

^^They probably had to select either male or female because sometimes one gender can respond differently to the other. This said, it's likely that neurotoxicity would occur in female rats too (if indeed GHB was neurotoxic).

thks! swim thought that perhaps due to some differences between fem and male brains there could be small chance that for once we girls can have more fun