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Sure, heroin, morphine and cocaine are all derived from plants, but they have many years of use as injectable drugs, both medicinal and recreational. Whilst not exactly safe, they are not deadly in known doses. No form of kratom has been produced for injection (and hopefully never will-- it's addictive enough anyway) so it would seem foolhardy to try it.
Last edited by enquirewithin; 09-12-2008 at 06:08.
Morphine and Heroin are already in a form (made for injection forms)where they can be DISSOLVED in water and injected or are already in liquid form and Kratom is not, well not the stuff that one gets from online vendors anyway
Exactly, exactly as my pet ferret said:
My ferret would never recommend injecting some crap from online vendors, but they wouldn't recommend injecting opium either, because the form is inappropriate.
It's all about the correct form. My ferret also wouldn't recommend people inject black tar heroin for the same reasons.
BUT, if that level of purity can be attained, then as a society we should investigate whether kratom alkaloids injected might be superior to opium alkaloids and derivatives, even as legitimate painkillers.
The point is, I think, as my ferret friend said before, any reasonable person would advise against the use of any impure substance of any kind for injection. That should go without saying.
The real discussion, since that is the name of the thread, is whether or not it's possible, or will ever be possible to isolate the active stuff like 7OHM or the oxindole fractions that are supposedly such hot stuff, in a way that #1 could even physically be dissolved as salts in water without other solvents [like the alcohol which seems ubiquitous in these liquid extracts] that would make injection harmful and impractical, and then #2 is it medically possible to inject the solution of these alkaloids without some intrinsically harmful reaction, like shock, severe histamine release that causes swelling or stops breathing, stomach cramps or worse etc etc or local problems at the point of injection such as those caused by barbiturates and pethidine.
That's what the thread means to my pet ferret: Kratom injectable? Means, is it, or will it ever be, possible to inject kratom alkaloids in a pure form?
Yes, my ferret gets your point, the thread doesn't really say "alkaloids in a pure form". But the thread likewise isn't titled "Injecting kratom extracts from online vendors -good idea?"
Because if it did, the answer would obviously be no, end of discussion.
Last edited by Electrolingus; 05-07-2010 at 21:13.
i am going to bring up this topic because i found it whilst looking for the answer to this very same question -- is it at all possible to achieve the kratom experience in some kind of intravenous form? -- and this thread has some good background discussion, making it worthy of revival
i, too, have thought about west coast tar heroin, which looks more like strange opium than anything else.... if that crap is injectable, why not something of a more refined kratom substance? does anyone have more info about the few cases in which people have injecting those crystalline alkaloids? i myself had never heard of those prior to unearthing this thread...
so -- has there been more information on this topic since it was active last? i am envisioning, ideally, a smaller proportion of substance needed for the maximum pleasure associated with injecting opiates... theoretically, this would make it more cost effective, which is good because my dog is living entirely off what i give him for an allowance.... and when he comes to me halfway through the week, asking for quarters to buy a bag of clean syringes, i can't exactly say no, think of the hygiene, but man it really chaps my ass....... dirty dog...
incidentally, someone in here commented as to how morphine or heroin are "meant" for injection, while it was cited elsewhere that essentially the primary reason for that opinion is that there's a long history of it.. someone had to be the first to shoot morphine.. and i'm sure they were guided by information on the substance's purity, solubility, etc etc, just as is being sought in this here thread..
kratom is spendy, and good ol' classic injectable heroin is not an option for everyone -- say, for example, a person on probation..... or a certain dog on probation.... and besides, for a canine who is comfortable with needles, the potential advantages in terms of potency and cost are worth pursuing
i saw that someone wrote about kratom's pleasurable effect being non-linear... what else is known about it? what makes an optimum dose, and could there be found an equivalent optimum dose in, say, crystalline alkaloid?
swim would imagine that it wont be IV of it thatd make it illegal itd b the overdoses of ppl not takin their time to work and find its potential,wen swim has had kratom in past it was awsome but loses its fun in a few days and swims also heard ALOT of ppl say the same.if ppl shoot vicodins and way worse ,or even buy poppy seeds ,then im sure someone will find a way to make it into an injectable form.if someone took the time their cud b potential for all sorts of benifits even releif for ppl who might respond better after theyve gone up high on opiates or maybe help with breakthrough pain and even if theres even 3 actives in it changing the amounts thatd b prepared in IV cud make it a way better alternative. even a sublingal version or even a kratom patch. its def not heroin so it seems like better that ppl might opt for the less addictive pain killer.and swim wud love if Clean or even dirty(but preferably clean of course) heroin was even near him or available at all but its not so alternatives are nice plus if one were to take the kratom on the days they didnt have opiates they cud at least ease the pain cuz no matter wat ppl do addiction isnt stopping anytime soon and addicts of drugs are no worse than addicts who eat too much,fuck too much, or ppl who take antidepressents as many ppl start drugs to keep from killing them selves cuz they feel they have something.swims never been like i wanna hurt someone wenever he wants to get high the need for it doesnt make u any worse. and compared to most things out there i think kratom could be even a missing link in addiction help in a potent enough form. also if u used it to wean and were monitored .drs cud test u more often cuz no opiates would show n the basic tests for opiates wud b cheaper.making any detox bettter or cheaper would b way better than takin it outa the idea box.
No point in risking a gangrene limb. Thats the biggest risk. The plant matter getting stuck, destroying one's veins until they lose a limb. SWIM swears, he cant figure out why people are willing to make themsevles lab rats for untested ROAs
as has been stated, by handle, nobody is talking about shooting plant matter.... apparently, there exists some kind of crystalline alkaloid extract (which saved me the effort of asking if such a thing exists), and obviously anyone who would even consider shooting stuff would prefer to shoot something as pure as they can manage... also, no one in this thread is going and shooting random kratomstuffs, the thread has been purely a search for information (including the information about people who have injected the crystalline alkaloid..)
while i won't for a minute say that street heroin is "safe," my dog has injected it many times over, has even injected cocaine, which is faaaar worse garbage to put into the blood, and yet plenty of people do such dangerous things routinely..... there are certain things that bring a substance within acceptable parameters of risk, when it comes to injection, and frankly i think a controlled, clean alkaloid extract would be of far less overall risk than the junk my dog shot for a couple of years... p.s. with a bit of care, my dog came out of that whole affair with robust, un-collapsed, non-gangrenous veins... in fact, they bulge now in a way that nobody'd ever know he was a canine opiate addict only a year ago....
in pursuing this thread on behalf of my dog, i am looking for information about a cleaner, more controllable opioid-ish experience via injection..... as i said, if people shoot west coast tar heroin, well, it seems like kratom could be made safer than all that..
especially since kratom is comparable in strength to vicodin, rather than heroin, and especially since many dogs out there are wound up in a needle habit just as much as the stuff that goes in the needle, it seems a worthwhile pursuit in harm reduction..... say, for someone who could easily buy white powder heroin, but would rather not...
the dangers of injection are apparent and many... however, just as doctors find an acceptable level of risk when they stick a spike of fentanyl/saline solution in your arm for oral surgery (true story), perhaps there is a way to refine kratom to at LEAST the level of purity of fucking black tar smack..!! in fact, sounds like black tar smack has already been surpassed, if this crystalline alkaloid stuff is as pure as advertised...
i am looking not for warnings about the dangers of injection, as i am well familiar with them and have seen folks more incautious than my dog wind up with nasty sores and wounds all over their veins....... rather, what are the possible dangers inherent to injecting kratom alkaloids, specifically?
again, someone mentioned something about non-linear optimum dose.... i would like to find more info on that, because THAT is the sort of thing that could possibly throw the whole "injecting kratom" idea out the window.... but things such as "you risk infection, you don't want leaves and stems in your veins" are pretty obvious..... someone said, i believe, that these kratom alkaloids were soluble in water..? THAT is the stuff i am looking for...
obviously neither i, my dog, nor anyone else will advocate injecting ANYTHING flat out, as it's a choice too near and dear to one's own values to really foist upon anyone else..... but, if someone is a career IV'er, it only makes sense to eke out as much information as humanly possible before considering IV administration of a drug with no such history....
so, let the question be posed as such: PUTTING ASIDE ALL OBVIOUS WARNINGS INVOLVED WITH INJECTING DRUGS, what is there specifically about KRATOM AND ITS ALKALOIDS that would inform someone, one way or another, as to its viability as an injectable substance IN THE PUREST, MOST READILY SOLUBLE FORM AVAILABLE?
also, are there any special steps that make creating your own crystalline alkaloid extract especially difficult? or can it be done by a competent kitchen chemist?
again, no one is suggesting a blind experiment, "lab rat" style..... all that's being asked in this thread is for as much information concerning the feasibility of injecting pure kratom alkaloids.... if it ultimately doesn't sound safe, likely it will sink into the annals of forgotten hypotheticals... but, if there is any way to bring the stuff to a level of risk at least equivalent to that of black tar heroin, there will likely be a population who will want to shoot it..... and, if that population are smart enough, they will want as much relevant information as possible before "taking the plunge"..
remember: pure information is just that--pure. it can be used for destructive or less-than-destructive ends..... and frankly, not every IV'er will want to be smart about it.... many IV drug users are used to taking unnecessarily great risks.... why not at least pad out the public wealth of knowledge with as much relevant information as possible? it could be gathered together in one convenient spot, to rescue the impatient risk takers from rash decisions, by at least offering definite reasons why KRATOM ALKALOIDS in specific, and NOT just injection in general, would be either "safe enough" or "flat out unsafe"
everyone has seen "requiem for a dream"... we all know (or at least i HOPE we all know) that you can really lose an arm with one wrong prick of the pin..... the ideal situation, concerning this topic, is to offer information specifically relevant to kratom, so that it doesn't appear that the primary dangers are no more than those inherent to injection...... there could very well be dangers more specific to kratom that actually make it more dangerous than coke or heroin..! who knows?? nobody, until the information can find its way to their front and center....
in the name of harm reduction, for dirty dogs like mine, i say pure information is neither good nor bad..... its applications may be varied and many, but the results are the ultimate burden of those who can interpret the risks and take them.... if it turns out kratom alkaloids should not be injected, period, and the information is out there, there's nobody to blame but yourself if you lose an arm to gangrenous kratom infection.... but, if there IS a "safe enough" way to do it, i see a injectable kratom being to heroin as jwh-018 is to pot..... that is to say, a lot of people who are caught out in probation situations, or who need to take a drug test for a job but can't afford to go into the interview in full-on dope sickness, or any other reasons why it might be useful to have an opioid fix that is not a traditional opioid.... hell, if the risks were comparable to shooting street heroin, the one significant difference might lie in the question of potency..... a person could trade a potentially lethal heroin habit for one that might be safer..... after all, very few addicts can get up the gumption to stop cold turkey, even when they want to, until they wind up in a holding cell..... a substitution such as injectable kratom might act similarly to the way dihydrocodeine is sometimes used in lieu of methadone (especially since methadone has its own slew of problems).... or even for people who have no insurance to cover the whopping price of suboxone....
to say "no point in risking a gangrene limb" is like saying "no point in risking death by car accident.... just don't drink, ever, cus you never know if you'll get so drunk you actually think it's wise to drive a car." it's highlighting the worst case scenario, and in fact, if such a scenario were at all common, the activity in question would not be nearly so popular as it already is.....
if you're not willing to take any risks, there's not many drugs you can feel safe about using..... the idea would be to minimize any potential risk for people who would just as soon take a huge risk as a small one...... these people are out there, and some of them are dogs.... some of them just don't want to tweak their metabolism anymore after getting off a years-long heroin habit...... kratom is far gentler in terms of recuperation and addictive potential, and yet it's the only legal alternative that offers comparable effects to opiates..... and, since many opiate users find their drug of choice to be preferable over all others, it's not reasonable to expect them to substitute with something like pot, or wild dagga....... my dog, he gets a headache after one bottle of beer.... benzos are wild and unpredictable..... he has pain, he has migraines, he is but a frail thing, quivering in the wind, and desires a soothing, relaxing drug experience..... kratom works fine as a tea, sure, but it is spendy.... and when a dog is spending that kind of money on kratom, he's likely tempted to spend the same amount of money and get much more "bang for his buck" with a couple of bundles of heroin.....
in other words, there is a market for this information, and while i will respond to this thread myself if i find anything worthwhile, i would appreciate it if other people at least kept it in mind as a possibility for reasonable discussion.....
i def agree ,ppl keep talkin bout the plant matter which is NOT wat the info is about or asking plus it would b great as even if it wasnt 100%pure(how many things are?) even without any posted experiences my kitten wud feel safer bein the first one to try a kratom shot ,next to all these super dangerous fent and analogues and other methods of making a stronger opiate.its funny heroin is frowned on even though if ppl wud just start makin pure heroin pills id bet theyd have less deaths than others .
Since heroin causes euphoria at lower levels than most opiates swims ever heard of. like ppl wud look at fent as dirt if anyone produced a heroin pill with lika an mdma press or it was legal for pain.cuz it takes nearly swims breathing to stop before ANY desirable euphoria comes.
People shud try to make a stronger euphoria then go by strength of pain killin ability ,makin lower safer doses that actually please the person to not need to go to such extremes.for some injectable kratom cud b an alternative to subs and more inviting for needle fever users to b able to quit.
So how bad cud that b? ppl are injecting stuff close to battery acid and stuff like free-on plus if might save 1000s and 1000s who are in a middle stage where theyd get out if it was JUST a lil easier plus wenever someone goes cold turkey it frys their brain worse and can put them in worse shock then the thought that "hey id rather die shootin up then feel dead and hopeless that most ppl get wen its bad" would go away for lots who need to b brought off the needle.
Not every addict is a criminal at all but get treated and are already guilted to feel worse making the drugs feel more needed. i dont see wat drs have to lose? they cud b RICH AS HELL if they cud get ppl thru the middle part. swim has seen extracts that arent too much that are isolate in alchohol swims sure one cud evap the alchohol and scrape wats left n have pretty much the procedure in question.
Polio vaccine is asking a relevant question, I believe it to be on topic.
Kratom extracts are available, but I have yet to see a good tek outlining how to extract and obtain a more pure form of kratom.
If Clover were going to do this, he would use 7-hydroxymitragynine as it is likely to be more water soluble and is more potent. Mitragynine must undergo metabolism (usually via oral consumption) to be converted into the much more potent 7-hydroxy form. Attempting to inject mitragynine is likely to result in less effectiveness as this route of administration will avoid first-pass metabolism, resulting in much less of the substance being converted into 7-hydroxymitragynine.
i would like to contest the little reprimand someone just ticked off on my last post..... i think it's pretty relevant to the discussion of injection whether alcohol evaps are the same as these purified alkaloidal crystals people are talking about...... preparing the stuff so that it's water soluble and pure for injection is hard if you don't know how to do it.... rather than create a new topic for it, in order to tie that information back into this one, isn't it just easier to answer the given question? the topic at hand is discussing possible injection of kratom's alkaloids..... how to produce an injectable alkaloid is perfectly relevant...... an answer would be appreciated, regardless whether i take up extra forum memory to create a new topic heading.....
SWIM has seen drug addicts inject alot of shady shit, and has heard stories that people has shot up with things like beer and apple juice. Therefore SWIM wonders what would be so different with IV'ing kratom tea?
Or at least a proper water-extract of kratom dissolved in some klever solvent (ethanol, water etc.)?
and IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE PURE ALKALOID CRYSTALS! So that answers the question ey? Kratom resin can be melted down, filtered thru cotton and inejected just like heroin. Actually, like opium since it still has some plant material in it. The little smurf that lives in my dreams tried it today after reading up a lot about it. Yea it was a smurfing stupid of Pitufo(Pitufo meaning smurf in spanish) to try but hes done much crazier. He wasnt too stupid about it tho. At first he only tried a little bit with lots of water so that there was no possible way for it to clog his vains. Pitufo is a smurfed up dopie but he wants to quit the blue tar that the Snorks just south of the border, i mean under the water trade him for those hard to earn sea shells. Recently i found out about kratom and its potential use for opiate addiction so i told Pitufo about it and that same day he went out and got some tried it and said it SUCKED! After researching more about kratom i told him that some peoples pets on this drug forum had tried shooting up the almost pure alkaloid crystals and right away he got some of hid kratom resin out and tried it himself. He said it didnt suck this time, actually he said is was pretty smurfing good. He also said it was much better for him because now he could actually use kratom to wean himself off that expensive blue tar he gets from those snorks. Crazy huh?
I dont suggest trying this yourselves or letting your friends or animals try it but it works and obviously many of you will try it since its money saving, specially since most resin kratom is cheap on the internet.
Sorry Handle and everyone else who thinks injecting is a stupid and dirty way to shoot up but sometimes people fuck up and try shooting their guns just once and get addicted.
Kratom might some day be made illegal but it wont be because of people injecting it, itll probably be because of some stupid little kids overdoing it and doing stupid things while on it like driving just like how 4 lokos were banned in many places.
Pitufo might be the crazy smurf to first try this but he definately wont be the reason for it becoming illegal.
Whether it was him or anyone else, no matter what, someone would have eventually tried shooting resin kratom and found out how cost efficiant and not dangerous it is.
SWIM has come across heroin addicts who will inject opium when desperate. Hopefully SWIY can use this to wean himself off other substances. The long term effects of injecting such impure material are unknown but not likely to be good.
i bet some people will be pissed at me for finding this out but
theres probably a lot more people out there that are happy that now they can quit using or at least wean themselves off of heroin for a while by shooting up kratom
If anyone you know happens or anyone else out there to try this be sure they are very very careful filtering and all other parts of the injection process. Get some cheap single use alcohol wipes to sterilize your srynges and iv spot, its worth the 5 or 10 bucks youll spend them. Trust me and use your head dont let the withdraws ever make you do something stupid. Ive met someone with a heroin caused amputation before and it is Horrible! He used to love and play guitar all the time so you can imagine how much he hates and regrets ever using heroin now..
Not everything is worth the risk so people please be very cautious around kratom resin and needles
my little buddy just talked to me earlier today and was telling me all about his kratom injection and he was saying he used something like .4 to .7 grams of 8x kratom resin extract and he used a resin chunk about the size of a thirty/.3 gs of tar if anyone knows what that looks like or about the size of the thickness of an average headache pill capsule or almost as big as the thickness of an average pencil.
Lil Pitufo also said he got really itchy but nnot throughout his entire body like he does on heroin. he said he was itchy in random places and the craziest thing he mention was, he could kind of taste the kratom in his body like how you can taste a saline injection in your body. he said when he has used saline instead of plain water to cook his tar with it gives him a weird sensation of tasting the saline as if he had an extra sense for a little while like when you can taste the color purple when youre on mushrooms. If anyone else know what hes talking about with the saline iv olease let us know, oh and hes not the first to say this so hes not just a crazy little mushroomed out smurf
Sorry but he told me to write all this down he said everyone would probably think its interesting haha. I know i found it interesting
interesting. did the kratom resin require cooking down at all? like with a lighter? or did it just mix in water?
my dog probably wishes he knew about this when he was trying to get off smack. i'm really interested in the solubility factor, myself - for his safety. i mean, if it can be dissolved thoroughly then i tend to think it's.... well, not safe exactly, but no better or worse than shooting tar heroin. in that particular regard.
of course if it doesn't dissolve cleanly, or too happily coagulates, then that conjures nightmare images of gooey black resin... gumming up your heart.....
but i think it would be great if this could become an option for dogs everywhere who are trying to take it down a notch. also might explain why kratom resin pies are popular, because my dog has taken them orally in the tea fashion with such minimal result as to say fuck it and return to the plain leaf. perhaps people have tried this before? eh?
Its hardly worth IVing oxycodone compared to Oral why would kratom be any advantage since it has such a high oral BA. Ive never used needles but I know putting organic matters straight into your bloodstreeam could have alot of bugs in it esp who knows where this stuff is made. My friend finds codeine stronger than kratom and its not worth IVing. Good luck and let us know how you go
My dog has done some crazy stuff and has tried some pretty retarded things ,but this just sounds like a horrible idea because who knows where something "not meant for human consumption" is made.
Unless it is a pure soluble potent extract (not resin)it doesnt seem worth it .
My dog says to do anything worthwhile for withdrawls it'd be a LOT of plant matter,fats,etc.. in comparison to what it would take to equal a half gram of Black tar heroin ,since most others have very little if anything in it since after tar its seperated.
My dog doesnt think cotton will be too much help with dissolving a buncha resin.but still always filter anyway because it would slightly help .He suggests at least make decent size filter for the extra Huge portion resin.
Be safe ,in other words dont do it lol or at least get it pure and even then my dog also says it might not feel very good after its gone and your body has more resin than most would get in a year on heroin. be careful
It would be great if a CLEAN extract would be able to be used as a safer alternative possibly .
I know I'm reviving an old thread here but I have a question regarding whether USP grade Vegetable Glycerin would be safe for injection? I know Propylene Glycol is safe, but I have an extract containing Mitragyna alkaloids , as well as water, and VG.
My question is, would it need to be separated from the Glycerin before any attempts at IV admin are made or would VG be alright? I've done research and found the there are medical applications for IV Glycerin, but nothing specific enough for me to feel safe enough in taking the plunge with this