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  #26  
Old 23-02-2011, 19:29
reef88 reef88 is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mint boi View Post
My ferret finds that some generic brands of alprazolam can be weaker than brand name/other generics.
One brand that is supposed to contain 2mg for example was analyzed and 1 pill was shown to contain ~1.3mg while others were ~2.2-2.3mg...

Seems like some labs have less stringent quality control than others...

Could this be the case?
I think this might be right cause keri used to take this brand Tafil back in the days and now she's taking some other "cheeper" brand and she talks about it being weaker, I mean she did benzos a year ago and quit, can the tolerance still be around? Does it never go away?
  #27  
Old 24-02-2011, 06:06
DanTheFuckinMan DanTheFuckinMan is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reef88 View Post
I think this might be right cause keri used to take this brand Tafil back in the days and now she's taking some other "cheeper" brand and she talks about it being weaker, I mean she did benzos a year ago and quit, can the tolerance still be around? Does it never go away?

Yes, the longer you go without them, the lower your tolerance will be.
  #28  
Old 24-02-2011, 14:07
reef88 reef88 is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheFuckinMan View Post
Yes, the longer you go without them, the lower your tolerance will be.
This is obvious but you didn't answer my question: Will tolerance lower back down to normal after quitting for example 2 years.
  #29  
Old 25-02-2011, 04:32
DanTheFuckinMan DanTheFuckinMan is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

It should go back to baseline, but everyones chemistry is different. There are no guaranties.
  #30  
Old 26-02-2011, 08:08
Veksul Veksul is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkling_star View Post
The poster before me is right in that many drugs are being outsourced so the quality is not the same. However, I found an article on bloomburg (I can't yet post the link-sorry people! but the title is "FDA says it may tighten standards on generic drugs") that said: "FDA permits generic drugs to absorb at a 25 percent different rate and extent than the originals they copy."

So that means that generics can essentially have 25% less of the drug (or at least 25% less bioavailability and be approved as equal. So that is why this story came out--the FDA is considering mandating that generics are closer to name brands because esp. with medications like alprazolam and anything anti-seizure is really important to have the right dose.

I hope this helps. I had always heard it +/- 20% bioavailability at the peak in the blood stream. But I could be off on this fact.

It's sad, isn't it?
FDA considers a drug as bioequivalent if the drug (compared to the standard reference drug) has no more a difference in results then 20% less to 25% over the standard drugs bioavailability, known as the -20%/+25% rule.

Bioequivalency studies for new generics usually include only 24-36 normal healthy adults. In these studies, the FDA considers that a difference within these -20%-+25% ranges are considered "clinically insignificant".

To clarify, for a generic to be approved, the drug must be both bioequivalent and pharmaceutical equivalents to the brand name. Pharmaceutical equivalency requires the same active ingredients, in the same exact strength, in the same dosage form, intended for the same ROA; identical in every way except for the inactive ingredients (fillers, flavors, colors, preservatives). Perhaps for certain individuals, some fillers or preservatives alter absorption greater than others. I for one know that some people are even allergic to food coloring, so it is plausible that some inactive ingredients don't break down as well (decrease absorption) for certain people.

Post Quality Evaluations:
The answer this thread needed!
  #31  
Old 27-02-2011, 20:46
DanTheFuckinMan DanTheFuckinMan is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veksul View Post
Bioequivalency studies for new generics usually include only 24-36 normal healthy adults. In these studies, the FDA considers that a difference within these -20%-+25% ranges are considered "clinically insignificant".
The FDA may consider that "clinically insignificant", but my cat disagrees.
If SWIM is used to taking generic 2mg xanax at -20% he is taking 1.6 mgs. Then he changes pharmacies and gets generics at +25% he is taking 2.5mgs. That's almost a full mg of difference. For some, that's the difference between functioning and sleeping. Apply this to other, more powerful drugs, and it may be the difference between life or death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veksul View Post
To clarify, for a generic to be approved, the drug must be both bioequivalent and pharmaceutical equivalents to the brand name. Pharmaceutical equivalency requires the same active ingredients, in the same exact strength, in the same dosage form, intended for the same ROA; identical in every way except for the inactive ingredients (fillers, flavors, colors, preservatives).
I still fail to see how they are bioequivalent and pharmaceutical equivalents with a differential of -20%-+25% of the active ingrediant.
  #32  
Old 27-02-2011, 22:01
Veksul Veksul is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheFuckinMan View Post
I still fail to see how they are bioequivalent and pharmaceutical equivalents with a differential of -20%-+25% of the active ingrediant.
Bioequivalency is the measure of how quickly a medication is absorbed. Meaning, the medication would still provide the same amount of medication eventually, but at a slightly different rate (-20%/+25%) of distribution/metabolism. This is assuming that fillers do not decrease total overall absorption of the drug, which in some people may be a factor, even though the FDA tests showed them to be identical.
  #33  
Old 28-02-2011, 00:28
DanTheFuckinMan DanTheFuckinMan is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veksul View Post
Bioequivalency is the measure of how quickly a medication is absorbed. Meaning, the medication would still provide the same amount of medication eventually, but at a slightly different rate (-20%/+25%) of distribution/metabolism. This is assuming that fillers do not decrease total overall absorption of the drug, which in some people may be a factor, even though the FDA tests showed them to be identical.

So basically my cat feels a difference due to the "peak" for lack of a better term. Instead of getting hit hard fast at say +25% Bio he is getting a lower but longer duration peak at say -20% but with the same overall effectiveness and duration. Am I close yet?
  #34  
Old 28-02-2011, 00:53
Spare Chaynge Spare Chaynge is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Putting aside theoretical bio-availability and bio-equivalent standards etc. Are all the subjective reports of alprazolam differences based on alprazolam obtained directly form the pharmacy in the United States? Swim is just wondering because if swiy get alprazolam from, a friend of a friend, you do not know if it really came from a pharmacy, therefore it could be counterfeit. Perhaps, it does contain alprazolam, but it is actually a well done fake made to look like a commonly known brand and it was imported from some medical lab in another country. On a separate note, alprazolam in the united states commonly available on the black market is often obtained from Mexico, or other countries.


Further, swim thinks that the placebo effect could account for the vast majority of any sort of subjective differences in 1mg tablet of x brand versus 1mg tablet of y brand. This is not to totally discount the bio-avaliablity theory but until their is some double blind studies done....swim is extremely skeptical.

There just seems to be so many factors that are constantly changing that could account for a subjective differences in strength from brand to brand. Tolerance, weight, setting, other medications or drugs consumed, stress level, mental level, age, weight.

Last edited by Spare Chaynge; 28-02-2011 at 01:05.
  #35  
Old 28-02-2011, 02:24
RaoulDuke32 RaoulDuke32 is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

From what one gleans from the test that was reported, where some pills had as low as 1.3mg and some as high as 2.2mg, one would think that it was done by a government approved agency and that they would get theyre materials directly from the manufacturers.

Same with the DEA's tests. They arent going to test pills that they pick up off the street or even go to the pharmacy like you would have to.

As far as whether different brands cause a different affect is due to absorption, actual amounts of the substance, or just plain placebo, it could only be determined on a case to case basis.

Friends have said that the Sandoz are much higher quality and work better, but it doesnt seem to be because of a higher amount of alprazolam. It seems to be because of the fillers and binders. Theyre very soft, while the other main brands like Greenstone are brittle. If swim had to guess what made one generic more effective than another he'd say that the fillers in one were higher quality to allow for better absorption.
  #36  
Old 28-02-2011, 05:12
Veksul Veksul is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheFuckinMan View Post
So basically my cat feels a difference due to the "peak" for lack of a better term. Instead of getting hit hard fast at say +25% Bio he is getting a lower but longer duration peak at say -20% but with the same overall effectiveness and duration. Am I close yet?
Correct; the change in how fast one brand or another hits you could create an easily distinguishable difference.

For an extreme example, assume one brand absorbs about 20% slower than the brand name, and another 25% faster than the brand name - that would create a very noticeable difference between two generics.
  #37  
Old 02-03-2011, 00:56
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

can any cats out there tell my cat how to discern based on pill description which generics are supposedly weaker? for bars and footballs, what markings, colors, and manufacturers should my cat look for?
  #38  
Old 02-03-2011, 05:13
DanTheFuckinMan DanTheFuckinMan is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Deleted by the cat

Last edited by DanTheFuckinMan; 03-03-2011 at 00:09. Reason: Deleted as I realised I broke rule and Identified pills
  #39  
Old 02-03-2011, 18:18
Jatelka Jatelka is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itchypolarbear View Post
can any cats out there tell my cat how to discern based on pill description which generics are supposedly weaker? for bars and footballs, what markings, colors, and manufacturers should my cat look for?
No

Because that would be pill id, and we don't do that!
  #40  
Old 13-03-2011, 06:07
professor1165 professor1165 is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

First off IMO this is not due to a placebo effect as some have stated. I used to share that sentiment until I gained more experience and began to notice the the remarkable differences from brand to brand. I think this bioavailabilty issue is more attributed to the pills inert ingredients, not the active one. Alprazolam is Alprazolam period. However, Brand name manufacters spend billions on research & development. Not just on the core medication but also on what binders and fillers will work best with the med and complement its effects. Or at the very least not interfere with the drugs biomechanics. Generic companies are more apt to press the alprazolam with whatever cheap powder is available to make a pill. This makes a world of difference in the drugs effectivness and bioavailability. This is solely my opinion, but I think this is more responsible for the uneven quality among generics than any of other reasons discussed so far...
  #41  
Old 13-03-2011, 23:46
Veksul Veksul is offline
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Re: Supposedly bioequivalent brands of alprazolam.Why do they give different effects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by professor1165 View Post
I think this bioavailabilty issue is more attributed to the pills inert ingredients, not the active one. Alprazolam is Alprazolam period.
True, as I already stated in a previous post, generic brands must still have the same exact amount of alprazolam (active ingredient) but can contain a different assortment of binders/fillers. Bioavailibility is dependent not on the active ingredient, but of all the inactive ingredients that affect the overall absorption of the pill.

New files concerning bioequivalency can be found in the archive. I strongly suggest anybody wanting to understand this topic to look at them, they are very informative:

Bioequivalence and Therapeutic Efficacy of Generic Versus Brand Name Psychoactive Drugs
Switching from Brand Name to Generic Psychotropic Medications

Results from a study comparing four different lorazepam brands:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PubMed
Four different oral lorazepam tablets (Tavor tablets as reference preparation and three generic tablet formulations, A, B and C) were investigated after administration to 12 rabbits to evaluate their bioequivalence. A single 2 mg/kg dose was administered orally as powder and lorazepam plasma concentrations were determined by a validated HPLC method. Maximum plasma concentrations (Cmax), of 207 ng/ml (reference), 198 ng/ml (A), 166 ng/ml (B) and 169 ng/ml (C) were achieved.

Last edited by Veksul; 15-03-2011 at 05:15. Reason: Added new links to archive

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