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  #1  
Old 31-01-2011, 23:54
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Hi guys, I'm new around here, how's it goin!! My pet llama got really into MDMA use over the past year. He is 20 years old. He used to smoke pot daily-ish on and off for 2 or 3 years. He has drank moderately, eaten mushroom 7 or 8 times, and LSD 4 times. I'll go thru his entire history of MDMA usage in case that might help.

NYE 08 (Disco biscuits concert. hell ya) -- 3 dips of molly

Oct. 09 -- 1 pill

NYE 09 -- 4 pills

That period of use doesn't worry me. But wait:

July 14-16 (music fest) -- ate probably 1.5 grams over 3 days, plus 1 LSD dose

August 8th -- probly .7 grams of really good sass

August 27th -- two or three dips of molly

October 7th -- maybe .5 grams of molly

October 23rd -- .7 grams of molly

and then two weeks ago, maybe .3 or .4 grams of moonrocks plus a tab of LSD

So about 10 times in all.

Ever since two weeks ago my llama has been a complete and absolute anxious wreck. He has always been a relatively anxious llama, and the combo of intense drugs aggravated it to an extent that he talked to his shrink, and is now using klonopin to "break the cycle" of anxiety. My llamas anxiety is complete and 100% over the fact that I may have given myself irreversible serotonin damage due to my two heavy uses over the summer, and my two heavy uses in October. He was not educated about the neurotoxic effects by dosage, the dumbass simply thought if you wait long enough to serotonin to replenish, it will be all good.
My poor llama never wants to use MDMA again. He justs wants to live in the real world with his real emotions. He is not extremely depressed, and feels that if there was damage done the depression would be worse. However, he does get very minor mood swings, and feels rushes of "feel-good" brain chemicals at times, and other times feels a little more tired and out of it. His psychiatrist also is confident that no damage was done, except for exacerbated anxiety. However, every little thing that goes wrong I attribute to my MDMA abuse. My llama has a very hard time achieving and maintaining a full on erection, and when he does, he cums way too quickly. Is this all in my llamas head? or is that another symptom of serotonin damage. Will my llamas anxieties diminish over the next few months? Should he just stop thinking about MDMA damage and move on?? so much worry. My llama wishes to god he could reverse time, but this is useless thinking. Thanks for any feedback from heavy users. Also, would you consider my llamas use heavy?? Thanks alot, my llama is really hoping for some answers. He's had some pretty dark thought loops lately.

Trey_anastasio added 334 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

Ok so um... to answer my llamas question I just read this: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96363

So apparently for neurotoxicity to be long lasting, my poor llama, Juanito, would have to take astronomical doses for days on end. This relieves my anxiety so much!! He still has all his conversational skills, memory seems to be fine, no extreme depression (minor mood swings, however)... just that damn anxiety.... I'm hoping after a few months of NO DROOOGS mi llama estara muy contento otra vez! If anyone has any feedback, lemme know.

Last edited by Trey_anastasio; 31-01-2011 at 23:54. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #2  
Old 01-02-2011, 00:07
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Firstly, keep a little more aware about self-incrimination in swiys post. Now, swim is and was a heavy user of MDMA. He doesn't consider swiy use to be extremely heavy. Now, when swim says "serotonin damage", swim doesn't know if swiy understands neurotoxicity well, but swim would be more then happy to explain the essentials. When swiy takes MDMA, he is forcing out massive quantities of serotonin into the synapse. Far more then the body would ever do on it's own. The problem with this is that when the serotonin is forced out, the receptor is left dry. This results in depression for up to a week. This is not damage, it is simply what one has to suffer from his great time rolling until his receptors reup their serotonin. This can be helped along by 5-HTP, a precursor to serotonin. Again, this is NOT permanent damage. The next thing that happens with heavy use is called Neurotransmitter Down-regulation. When swiys brain is used to a drug, MDMA for example, it begins to develop tendencies. If swiys brain notices that he is releasing way more serotonin then he should, it will tell the receptor to decrease its natural output of serotonin. It's like the brains way to even itself out. Now, after swiy stops taking MDMA, this down-regulation can still be present. Meaning, swiys brain is producing less serotonin then before and no additional serotonin is being released. This condition tends to persist a bit longer then the "suicide tuesday" next day depression, but is usually not permanent. Now, the permanent damage caused by the use of MDMA is oxidative stress to the neurons. This process is far more difficult to explain and swim would refer swiy to the wiki article about the dangers of ecstasy if he wants to know more. This condition varies greatly based on dose and individual. Taking anti-oxidants helps reduce this conditions effects, however, swim doesn't think it can reverse the damage. In swims personal opinion, a lot of swiys condition may be in his mind, and taking 5-HTP and working with a psychiatrist should work wonders for swiy, but there is certainly possibility of some permanent damage. That said, if swiy can still spell his name, it can't be that bad. Seriously though, swim hopes swiy gets feeling better!
  #3  
Old 01-02-2011, 00:11
vorsybl vorsybl is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

As far as I can remember the difference between coke and E is antagonist vs agonist action. The former blocks dopamine from being reabsorbed so it just sits in the synaptic cleft for a while, chillin, whereas with Es it makes the brain release it in larger quantities?

As far as I know that kind of use of E might lead to like, consistent depletion of the neurotransmitter, which can lead to like not being able to move anymore. I've also heard that excessive use of E causes permanent depletion of various chemicals.

A banana in the market has done E only 3 times in its life, definitely an over the top, overwhelming stimulant that lasts for too long.

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Like, really? Providing conjecture as fact can lead to confusion.
  #4  
Old 01-02-2011, 00:23
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorsybl View Post
As far as I can remember the difference between coke and E is antagonist vs agonist action. The former blocks dopamine from being reabsorbed so it just sits in the synaptic cleft for a while, chillin, whereas with Es it makes the brain release it in larger quantities?

As far as I know that kind of use of E might lead to like, consistent depletion of the neurotransmitter, which can lead to like not being able to move anymore. I've also heard that excessive use of E causes permanent depletion of various chemicals.

A banana in the market has done E only 3 times in its life, definitely an over the top, overwhelming stimulant that lasts for too long.
That's incorrect. MDMA is better described as a Serotonin releasing agent. While Cocaine is better described as a dopamine/norepinephrine/serotonin reuptake inhibitor. The depletion is rarely permanent.
  #5  
Old 01-02-2011, 01:45
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

How would SWIM know if SWIM has incurred oxidative stress? If he can still hold intelligent conversations and his friends haven't noticed any changes in his personality, and he is not currently a depressed wreck, is this a sign that his neurons may still be intact? I'm assuming if SWIM had incurred such oxidative damage, he would be much worse for the wear than he is currently (besides the anxiety/obsessive thoughts, which were present before, just not as bad).

Trey_anastasio added 23 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

Also, in the SWIM link, it says the site encourages creative uses of non self incrimination! I thought llama was pretty creative... sorry I don't know how to edit and thank you so much for your reply.

Last edited by Trey_anastasio; 01-02-2011 at 01:45. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #6  
Old 01-02-2011, 01:47
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

That's are very common misconception to have. Oxidative stress is something that naturally occurs in the brain to some degree with aging. In fact, it is almost always happening. It is caused by the literal oxidation of the brain. A very drastic example to think of is iron. The rust on iron is the iron oxidizing. Now, this is certainly not the degree to which swiys brain is oxidizing, but thats the general idea. The thing to realize here is that while swiy may feel like he is completely fine, and for all swim knows, he is. Swiy may have sped up the natural oxidation process by his MDMA use. Now, if this is the case, swiy and swim are in the same boat. To what degree this will happen is impossible for me to say. Swim doesn't feel like MAJOR effects are likely to ever develop, however, some cognitive impairments may become more apparent with age. If swiy is truly concerned that he may have brain damage, swim advises he sees a neurologist.

FinnishPharmer added 1 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey_anastasio View Post
How would SWIM know if SWIM has incurred oxidative stress? If he can still hold intelligent conversations and his friends haven't noticed any changes in his personality, and he is not currently a depressed wreck, is this a sign that his neurons may still be intact? I'm assuming if SWIM had incurred such oxidative damage, he would be much worse for the wear than he is currently (besides the anxiety/obsessive thoughts, which were present before, just not as bad).

Trey_anastasio added 23 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

Also, in the SWIM link, it says the site encourages creative uses of non self incrimination! I thought llama was pretty creative... sorry I don't know how to edit and thank you so much for your reply.
Anything to help a fellow swimmer in need!

Last edited by FinnishPharmer; 01-02-2011 at 01:47. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #7  
Old 01-02-2011, 03:30
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Now what do you make of this test that shows that neurotoxicity occurs only after dosages many times higher than SWIM has taken? (sorry to harp on the subject... but this is why I joined. haha) http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96363

Trey_anastasio added 65 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

It says that the majority of rats given the lowest dose of .7 grams per day for FOUR days straight returned to normal control levels within 2 weeks, showing no signs of neurotoxicity.

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Great use of drugs-forum for harm reduction!

Last edited by Trey_anastasio; 01-02-2011 at 03:30. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 01-02-2011, 03:36
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey_anastasio View Post
Now what do you make of this test that shows that neurotoxicity occurs only after dosages many times higher than SWIM has taken? (sorry to harp on the subject... but this is why I joined. haha) http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96363
Trey, you are what all swimmers should aspire to be, reducers of harm to themselves and others, do not be sorry, you should be proud . What I make of this study is similar to how swiy has gone about analyzing himself. He looked for noticeable cognitive changes in the short-term, just like this study. Swim will try to find the link to it, but he has seen research that show any amphetamine at a psychoactive dose causes neurotoxicity. MDMA as swiy may know, is an amphetamine. Swim thinks neurotoxicity is a term that gets thrown around with a very loose definition. Neurotoxicity can be so minute, that it will never effect cognitive performance in any noticeable way. And, again, it is a process that continuously builds over time and is partly responsible for memory issues in the elderly. If swiy takes anti-oxidants, maybe some "smart-drugs" and lives a healthy life style, cognitive issues may never surface. Swim has "visual snow" now, he accredits this to his heavy use of adderall and MDMA, but it does not effect his enjoyment of life in the least bit. Swim hopes this helps and is open to any further questions or discussion swiy may want to have.
  #9  
Old 01-02-2011, 04:02
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

What would you suggest as "smart drugs?" And the visual snow thing is interesting -- I get it after head rushes, but definitely not all the time, and I'm pretty sure I had the head rush thing pre-MDMA. In all curiousness, how does SWIMs usage compare to SWIYs usage? After prolonged abstinence for SWIY, has he found that he is "normal" again?
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:18
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey_anastasio View Post
What would you suggest as "smart drugs?" And the visual snow thing is interesting -- I get it after head rushes, but definitely not all the time, and I'm pretty sure I had the head rush thing pre-MDMA. In all curiousness, how does SWIMs usage compare to SWIYs usage? After prolonged abstinence for SWIY, has he found that he is "normal" again?
Smart drugs-
Vasopressin- "Vasopressin is a hormone produced in the hypothalamus which increases water retention. When used as a 'smart drug', it is said to increase mental clarity and improve memory"
Selegiline- "Selegiline increases the actions of dopamine in the brain by inhibiting the enzymes that break it down. After being sold for years as an anti-aging supplement and a treatment for Parkinson's disease, the FDA approved use of a Selegiline transdermal patch (Emsam) for treatment of depression in 2006."
Piracetam- "Piracetam is considered the first smart drug and is still one of the most popular. It is said to increase cognitive functions including memory and learning."
Ginkgo Biloba-"The extract of the Ginkgo biloba tree increases blood flow to the brain. Research has shown it to improve memory and cognition. The seeds and leaves have been used in traditional Chinese medicine for asthma and circulatory disease."
Take swiys pick, more info can be found on erowid.
As for the visual snow, it's like air has a static quality. It's something swiy may not have even really thought about/doesn't even have. Swim found that by taking Klonopin for insomnia drastically reduces it, even during the day. Swim used ecstasy a fair bit more the swiy. Not only more times and for a longer period, but he made the mistake of rolling consecutive days in a row. The most day he ever rolled consecutively were 3. It was back in high school. He had a thursday off, so he rolled 2.5 pills that night. The next night he rolled 2, and the night after, 3. The week that followed was the most depressed swim has ever been in his life. Monday wasn't too bad. Tuesday he felt on the edge of breaking down into tears, and wednesday? He was online looking up the least painful way to commit suicide. Luckily, swim knew he had no real reason to be depressed. It was all the ecstasy that he took. That knowledge is why he is still alive today. Swim hasn't had complete abstinence. He rolls every once in a while (2 times a year) at big raves and does a conservative dose. Swim feels very back to normal, it's just the nostalgia of the good-rolled days that can bring him down sometimes. But as the saying goes, "time heals all wounds"
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:40
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

SWIM likes that saying alot His anxiety has already drastically improved since last week. It's interesting, but he's never really had bad depression from MDMA, even though he went thru some depression in High School. SWIM has learned a very valuable lesson. He will NEVER abuse MDMA in such a fashion again. He is very reassured by the fact that SWIY feels "normal" now (even tho everybody is different). While I can't say I feel completely "normal" yet, my brain has gone thru some trauma and I will give it a few months time. Time heals all wounds Thank you so much.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:47
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey_anastasio View Post
SWIM likes that saying alot His anxiety has already drastically improved since last week. It's interesting, but he's never really had bad depression from MDMA, even though he went thru some depression in High School. SWIM has learned a very valuable lesson. He will NEVER abuse MDMA in such a fashion again. He is very reassured by the fact that SWIY feels "normal" now (even tho everybody is different). While I can't say I feel completely "normal" yet, my brain has gone thru some trauma and I will give it a few months time. Time heals all wounds Thank you so much.
No problem , and as a side note, swim has only experienced depression once from mdma and it was the time he listed. Rolling 3 days in a row? JUST SAY HELL NO MDMA is one of the most curious substances out there, it feels so soft and gentle, but if swiy has a low fat content, just have him look in the mirror shirtless when he's rolling. All of his muscles will be tight and spasing. A deceptive mistress MDMA is, but she's one seductive lady. Take it easy on the x, n swiy will stay healthy n happy!
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:24
Trey_anastasio Trey_anastasio is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Another question: SWIM has been experiencing insomnia on and off. His last ingestion was 2 weeks ago. How long did SWIYS insomnia persist post MDMA use?

Trey_anastasio added 187 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

And that goddamn visual snow doesn't disappear, even with abstinence from any and all psychoactives for years? gah what has SWIM done to himself...

Last edited by Trey_anastasio; 01-02-2011 at 19:24. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 01-02-2011, 20:12
FinnishPharmer FinnishPharmer is offline
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Re: Nervous wreck after MDMA use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey_anastasio View Post
Another question: SWIM has been experiencing insomnia on and off. His last ingestion was 2 weeks ago. How long did SWIYS insomnia persist post MDMA use?

Trey_anastasio added 187 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...

And that goddamn visual snow doesn't disappear, even with abstinence from any and all psychoactives for years? gah what has SWIM done to himself...
Many things will get rid of that visual snow, and most of them are prescribed for insomnia. Swim has been suffering from insomnia his entire life, it wasn't caused by his use of MDMA. Though, MDMA can interfere with sleep cycles. Another cause of insomnia is depression, which swiy may have to some degree. If swiys insomnia is something he'd like to take care of swim recommends:
Doxylamine of Diphenhydramine (Not both), Calme's forte, 5-HTP or Tryptophan (Not both), ZMA, Valerian root and Melatonin.
If swiys insomnia is bad enough, it's time to see a doctor, just like swim did. Ambien can make visual snow worse, so swim recommends getting a benzodiazepine, such as:
Klonopin (Clonazepam)
Temazepam
Or whatever swiys doctor recommends. These will only get prescribed if swiy has difficulty getting to sleep, caused by anxiety .
They will also lessen visual snow. Hope that helps!
P.S.-If swiy does get benzos, they do have potential for abuse/addiction, be careful!

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