To Those Who Are Clean: An Observation

[TLSJ]

I was going to write this as a response to someone's post, then I thought I would send it as a PM, then I thought to just put it in a new thread, so anyone it may apply to, could read it, and take any needed steps to change, if they thought it might apply. I'll just post it the way I wrote it originally...

While I can appreciate swiy trying to help others, if that's the reason swiy are here, I'm just wondering if swiy think it's healthy. Or maybe swiy haven't even thought about it, one way or another.

Do swiy ever think that by engaging in all this drug-talk, that it could lead swiy to relapse? I do.

From the bible, 1Cor10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." NKJV

Of course I could be out of line, suggesting this to you, and I know this forum needs the input of those who have gotten clean, but something about swiy posts seems to me like swiy've got some sort of attraction, perhaps unhealthy, to the drug lifestyle, still. And something...call it a feeling, whatever...just made me think to mention it to swiy.

This next paragraph is obviously (now) a contradiction to the title of this thread, and the introduction, that's because this is as I originally wrote it, but now I'm throwing it out to anyone who is clean. Rather than change it to fit this thread, I felt I'd leave it is I wrote it, and add this explanation.

I wouldn't go so far to say this to everyone here who is clean, and still participating in the forums. Like for instance, I don't see this...whatever-it-is-I-see-in-you..., in swiDickon, for example.

And I don't think that what I'm seeing means swiy shouldn't be here, at all because swiy certainly has helped people, and I would imagine that could easily continue to be a benefit of swiy presence.

I'm just saying that, 1st: Something just made me think I should say this...2nd: I hope swiy'll consider it, objectively, without getting offended, and 3rd: Maybe just pulling back from posting so much is what I'm trying to say.

It just seems to me swiy're a bit too involved, so much so that it seems like swiy have this idealization about the drugs, and swiy still want to be involved, but this amount of involvement could be enough to make swiy eventually relapse.

Tom

Reputation Comments on this post:

Interesting question that I'm not sure has been asked before - well done for introducing a new topic

[ex-junkie]

you are severely underestimating the clean people on this forum.

posting on a forum in threads about detox turmoil, PAWS, "cant find my veins", etc, etc, etc, only reiterates to a clean person the very reason why they chose to get clean in the first place.

it is in no way an "idealization" or a "need" to still be involved. its a want/need to try and stop people from making the same stupid mistakes that we did, and to give them accurate information about harm minimization, medications, hints and tips for their own recovery/piece of mind.

i am genuinely interested in peoples recoveries, and reading about their progress. i have made some lovely friends on this site. it should be said that making friends with ex-users IRL isnt something that i can be bothered with personally, for obvious reasons, and i know im not alone in saying this...

last but not least, i get the chance to vent some of swims feelings/emotions that still to this day feel very real, this site and its users are always here to lend an ear, and they understand, know how you feel, know exactly what to say to pick you up again, and then on the flipside i am always here for them when they are in need.

not sure how you think this is a detriment to peoples recoveries, because in swims case it is the exact opposite...

[cooki]

SwiTLSJ,

I have a succinct answer to this 'issue' you've found:

Many of the people on this forum who are clean now, came here asking, if not begging, for help themselves. (Have a read back through some first posts).
They found so much support and advice in the Recovery & Addiction Forum, that it only felt right to 'give back', and pass on their valuable (& valued) experiences to others.


To elaborate though, swim could not find this site the fantastic support she does if these 'clean folks' didn't stick around after they had overcome their own demons.
As you said, there is a thread that asks whether members feel DF is a help or a hinderance to their recovery; what do they say??
Ex-Junkie is right; seeing tales of woe from people still battling their drug addiction is often a reminder of what one has escaped.
Many of the members who give help and support told of (their own) swim's battles with (for example) heroin, for decades...if that is the one thing in life that you've inadvertently become an expert on, you've "trained" in for all your adult life, surely to 'get clean and walk away' would be a waste of all the support you could give others??

These won'erful clean folks are why R&A is what it is, and swim is sure they are well aware of switheir relapse triggers (hey-there's a thread on that too!!) and, thank goodness, DF isn't one of them.

Peace.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great answer and explanation in defense of those who stay around to help others on the DF after getting through their is...

[10outof10]

I think if you are looking for a reason to relapse you will find one almost anywhere you look. Its great to be aware of your triggers and sometimes that means you need to remove yourself from places/people/emotions/things that will trigger you until you are at a place to be strong enough to deal with them. For me sometimes indulging in blame culture is not a healthy part of recovery-there must be personal responsibility for choices made. In a site that promotes harm reduction it is gona be fairly impossible to not engage in some level of drug talk and whilst I understand that glorification of drugs talk can be difficult for some in recovery, from what I've seen there is plenty of DF members that are quick to respond with cons aswell as pros. We also cannot forget that there are plenty that use drugs safely and will never get to a stage where they are using problematically and that the DF site will help with this by being able to give harm reduction info and pointing out to people in a less challenging way when their use might becoming a problem.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	outstanding contribution; well said!
	Good poitns about triggers and thoughts about the DF.

[Esmerelda]

TLSJ - I'm curious about what thread lead you to to write this, as the clean people on here have always struck me as being very anti the drug lifestyle.

However, I actually think this is a really good point to bring up. It's something I've thought about myself. I imagine that when Swie gets clean she will want to leave the forum behind her, as for her it's just too linked to the whole scene. She also doesn't want to become one of those people who is as obsessed with not-using as users are with their DOC. She hopes that when she leaves heroin behind, she truly leaves it behind, and throws herself into other aspects of life.

That said, she would like to be able to give something back to society as a result of what she has learnt as an addict, and she thinks sometimes that training as a counsellor and helping that way might be something that could work for her, without causing her to feel that she is still too involved.

I like Cooki's comment a lot. This forum wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the ex-addicts on here. Unfortunately Swie doesn't think she's going to be one of them, so she's just going to have to do her best to help as much as she can before she gets clean!

[rokman nash]

My friend Dave as of this moment is clean. Throughout his battle, most of which I have posted in R&A for him, he has asked himself this very question about DF-R&A. He has come to the conclusion(that for him) to post his successes and failures has been very cathartic. Though everyone is different, and comes to DF for different reasons, he has found that chronicling his situation is beneficial to him(and hopefully motivates others). To get feedback, both positive and negative from real people who know exactly what he is going through has (he feels) been the difference between failure, or at this moment success.

Dave does not feel that DF-R&A is necessarily the answer for everyone, but feels that the act of helping others while helping oneself, is one the answers for him.

Good Thoughts

Reputation Comments on this post:

good response to the OP about the catharsis, journaling, and feedback factors about why it is helpful to post here

[I_8_my yellow crayon]

I have posted in he r&a for swim. The r&a forum is probably my favorite one. Swim says he enjoys checking up on some people as he is a more caring person then he likes to admit.

Let Swim explain it this way

Swiy is a newbie here, so he doesn't quite understand this as much yet, but he will, especially once he starts meeting some of the great people here, everyone at drugs forum is a family, and all of us disagree at times, and may bicker some, but in the end we all care about eachother, and feel what eachother is going through. We understand the happy times, and the hard times. If one creates a thread on a recovery, then most users will check in and see how their doing and throw in some, kind, supportive, or realistic words. But believe it or not, this is a fairly tight nit community when it comes down to the everyday crew here. Swiy will notice we all have alot of the same friends and post in alot of eachothers threads. Alot of the swimmers we post for know that whatever mess their in, there is somewhere they can go and get reasonable experianced advice, from a trusted source.

Swim says he loves being surrounded by these types of people. It is where he feels most comfortable. When swiy starts to come out of his shell he will see this place for what it really is. And it no, it doesn't bother swim. He enjoys helping his friends and fellow d-f members. Thats what he is here for. I also notice you have three posts so I wanted to say hi, and welcome to the forum, and swim says he looks forward to any experiance or knowledge that swiy has to share.

All the best

[TLSJ]

Originally Posted by I_8_my yellow crayon

I also notice you have three posts so I wanted to say hi, and welcome to the forum, and swim says he looks forward to any experiance or knowledge that swiy has to share.

All the best

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks to those who responded.

Yes swim is new here, but not new to drugs, by a long shot. In fact, as swim notices swiy's age, he realizes he's been using for longer than swiy's been alive. Now that's a sobering thought!

I just want to re-state that I put up this thread, not to try and get clean people to leave because they might relapse, but instead to just take a look and see if there could be a possibility that swiy need to take a step (or 10, whatever the case may be) back, to ensure they will not allow themselves to get too close to something, whatever that may be, that could cause them to relapse. Just a "call-to-awareness" sort of thing.

Swim remembered something he learned in a drug class long ago, that really no one can evaluate a situation for you, but instead, you have to learn how to "self-evaluate." Learn your triggers, weaknesses, ways the addiction works in your own personal life, etc. Swim believes it was good advice.

T

[funkcentralstation]

Originally Posted by 10outof10

I think if you are looking for a reason to relapse you will find one almost anywhere you look.

This sums it up pretty nicely. Swim has definitely been thinking about abstaining from drugs, then logged on to the Heroin forum and right away started feeling fiendish. Of course, this isn't the fault of the forum itself, it's a problem with swim! By engaging in this "drug talk", swim finds himself reminiscing about drugs, and thereby becomes more likely to relapse. However, lately swim has more and more been lurking in the recovery forums and finding solace in their stories. The forums have nothing to do with relapse, it's a choice; a human error. Forums don't kill people, people do.

[johnnyyen]

SWIM has read all of the posts above and certainly can see the point of the original poster,he worried at first about dipping too deep into this forum in case it triggered any cravings to use..
Happily that has not happened as yet and reading so many tales of loss, sorrow regret and pain has only reinforced SWIM'S determination to keep away from relapse..
conversely SWIM has enjoyed several 'dry rushes' when reading some threads and the posts they attracted...happily tho' he still has not wanted to go score..he notes tho' that a dry rush is a indication that some part of him still finds opiate use attractive...but that is just him..
he gets a lot of help,advice and information from this forum,most of it new to him and in many ways priceless..he hopes that if just one of the posts he has made to a thread is of some help to another than it was worthwhile..relapse is a factor in all of our lives,SWIM likes to think that this forum is chock full of both good reasons not to, and advice,support and help if it does happen..
SWIM feels that,sadly smack and other opiates will always fascinate him,he also feels that the forum is not feeding that fascination but constantly reinforcing the goals of stability and recovery in himself and others....

[kailey_elise]

Personally, Someone I Know totters between the 'clean lifestyle' & 'being a hardcore junkie'. Heehee!

SIK has a lot of experience with detoxing from opiates (esp heroin), & has me post info for SIK when seeing someone has asked a ? SIK might be able to answer.

On the flipside, SIK is still involved with 'the scene' in many ways - works at a needle exchange (that doesn't hand out needles - long story), still IV's cocaine on a regular basis, etc.

This site has helped SIK stay safe during indulgences AND be there to support during periods of clean time, towards the ultimate goal of being completely clean.

SIK thought working @ the exchange would be a trigger, but it's been the exact opposite, and SIK feels the same about posting here.

However, I & SIK try not to interject the 'you can get clean!' message unless it's been asked for. After all, if posting about how I can stop getting abscesses when I shoot dope, someone continually said 'that's a sign that you're miserable & need to quit!' I'd be right pissed. But if someone is posting about how they want to get clean but don't know how, or they aren't sure they're ready to stop, whatever, I'll throw a message from the experiences of Those I Know out to them.

~Kailey

[g666d]

Originally Posted by kailey_elise

On the flipside, SIK is still involved with 'the scene' in many ways - works at a needle exchange (that doesn't hand out needles - long story)...

that deserves its own thread right there! is like a church which doesn't hold sermons, a library which won't lend books, a supermarket with no food, a taxi which doesn't drive...
what do they exchange needles for, bounty?!?

[kailey_elise]

Originally Posted by g666d

that deserves its own thread right there! is like a church which doesn't hold sermons, a library which won't lend books, a supermarket with no food, a taxi which doesn't drive...
what do they exchange needles for, bounty?!?

*LOL*

City bylaws don't allow us to actually hand out needles, though we (used to) take in dirty needles & facilitate the purchase of clean needles. We hand(ed) out the rest of the supplies in the office as well (cookers, cotton, water, etc).


However, the city isn't fond of us, (somehow seem to think that the 5 years we've been around 'brought in the drugs', as though the at LEAST 20 year history of purchasing drugs on that street never happened!), & through various bureaucratic bullshit, we can no longer hand out supplies from in our offices. *rolls eyes*

We're trying to figure shit out. It sucks, but for god's sake, the HepC and HIV epidemics are high e-fucking-nough, and I'll personally be damned if these people don't get their supplies. I'll fucking sit there with supplies in my backseat & let people come to me if they can't go to the office. I'm not 'officially' an employee (I'm something between a client and a volunteer, get paid through a grant but would forgo that if needed to not be at all affiliated), so, as a citizen of this area, I have no problems doing it of my own free will, not affiliated with any other organization. Dammit.

But, my outrage is for another thread.

~Kailey

[Dickon]

TLSJ,

I think this is a very important question. I wish I had understood the original post a bit better though. I am not sure if your not seeing this whatever-it-is-(you-see) in someone who isn't me is a good thing or not, but I think it's meant as a compliment. Care to elaborate?

It can be a useful self-awareness practice to see what part of the site I am looking at. It's not that if I'm looking at threads in the heroin or cocaine or novel research chemicals section it's necessarily a bad thing, but I do need to check my motives. If I am hankering for a vicarious drug experience, then that needs looking at. This might be a questionable part of 12-step groups, that a lot of people are sharing "war stories" and perhaps not truly moving on from the past (but that's another story to be told another time). I spend most of my time in R&A, which is both the section I co-moderate and my main area of interest. When I joined the staff here Alfa broached the subject of my moderating the opiates section of the forum and I declined for a number of reasons. In part it was because I didn't want to spend my days reading trip reports, seeing people setting out down a road that will lead many to addiction headless of any advice to the contrary. It was also because I wanted to devote what time I have to R&A, and the opiates forum is a huge task. For sure modding opiates would allow for harm reduction, so is a very valuable job, but I digress....

My motives to stay on this site are certainly connected to my early days and how much this site helped when cat was going through withdrawals. My wife pretty much says finding DF kept me sane (which in my case might be a relative term!), and writing Screaming in the night air kept me going through some dark times. So, I took the staff position and do my best to encourage people, kick them up the backside, and contribute to discussions, etc. I am, I hope, starting out along some kind of path of working with people with addictions and so I am also learning a lot reading how people recover or fail to recover.

Now we come to a very interesting point. When I was writing screaming I did set myself up as one who stands up (as per your Corinthians quote), and was very aware that this is a double-edged sword. I'd better be damn sure I meant it or any lapse or relapse would be doubly difficult. My 12-step background told me "one day at a time" so when I publicly made an oath that that was that I was going against this conditioning. In negative moments this was arrogance but in positive moments this was self-affirming and a healthy way forwards. I do not spend my time agonising about drugs and alcohol. I have decided to trust myself, but I do need to be vigilant, just not hyper-vigilant.

As for being on DF a lot, I default to this site when I'm on-line, so if I'm in neutral, I'm usually on here. Maybe in an ideal world I'd spend less time on here in neutral, and more time on here writing and engaging people. Some days I just don't feel like writing, especially since I've probably already written most of what I can usefully say! That said, I'm always learning, and what I'm really starting to learn is that knowledge is useful up to a point, and beyond that it is more important to be a calm presence, listen, and trust people can sort out recovery themselves when they are ready, possibly providing that little bit of insight and encouragement at the right time. I know I'm not usually the one saying soothing words, and telling people all will be well. There are others who do that far better than me!

I've also got my own hobby-horses that I do gently encourage others to try --- no hard sell --- abstinence, meditation and Yoga most notably, although I know we're all different, and try not to fall into the "sample of one" trap of "it worked for me, so it will work for you and/or is the only way".

So, I feel a duty to this site, which I try to fulfil, and feel that as one who has succeeded to some extent in this battle, I can be a positive example. I only wish there was more I could do.

There is also this very similar thread: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=103082 for those interested in this topic.

Without those with some experience sticking around there wouldn't be much of an R&A section. So I fully encourage everyone with some time in recovery to hang around and help others, even if only once in a while!

All the best to everyone

Dickon

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Really thought provoking and honest post

[shifted fate]

I would like to post a quote from one of my favorite books.................I spend a great deal fo time passing on what I learned to others who want it and need it badly.
I do it for four reasons:
1. Sense of duty.
2. It is a pleasure.
3. Because in doing so I am paying my debt to the man who
took the time to pass it on to me.
4. Because everytime I do it, I take out a little more insurance
for myself against a possible slip.

[Dickon]

^ ^ ^
noble sentiments, but you forgot the quote!