Drug tests & Synthetic Cannabinoid / Spice

[Alfa]

3 threads merged. Please read the previous posts and post any questions you may have.

[rockforlight]

interesting
swims guessing that the thc is still in there from over 45 days ago
never made the mistake of using of cannabis pipe only spice for spice

rockforlight added 998 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

swim said the same thing about it possibly having a cannabinoid that would trigger a positive for thc
but swim also said that it was seven weeks or so one time when he quit that it took to get the thc out but that was a long time ago but swim quit for a few months and then started again for a couple weeks very strong

[Valseedian]

there are a few very good reasons why synthetic cannabinoids will never show up in your system.

any of the synthetics available these days that resemble THC in any way have issues:

hu-210 is structurally similar to THC and can create the same metabolites, but the dosage requirements would make it almost impossible to pass the 50 ppm mark in urine, and would barely show up in hair testing. it also has issues with burning as it breaks down before vaporizing.


the CP range of synthetics aren't structurally related to THC, and will not create the same metabolites, but WILL create their own specific metabolites that are possible to test for, tho I've never heard of a case. again, with the very tiny dosage requirements, you'd be hard pressed to pass the thresholds required to test positive.

and there are also plenty of synthetics that are completely different than the makeup of THC... tho these are possible to be tested for (jwh's), there's such a long list of jwh's all with their own possible metabolites. these are much more likely candidates for testing as they do require slightly higher dosing, but here's another catch: none have lipid soluable metabolites. You'd have to be almost comatose high to trip any drug test for blood or urine.

it may show up in hair... very unlikely, but possible.

Reputation Comments on this post:

Great addition here! Very informative, strigh-forward answer to someone's question.

[Johnterry99]

Hey dude.
So whats the result ? I'm trying to smoke some Spike99 Ultra before I have to do my test in a week or two.

Lemme know.

thanks.

[Valseedian]

swim has tested a number of synthetics with OTC drop tests (thc tests only)

swim has smoked Jwh-018 and 073, and cp-47497 (and it's dimethyloctyl (sP?) analog), and has VERY VERY reliable information that NONE of the HU-xxx available commercially will trip a test in thereputic doses.

none of these synthetics caused a positive on a thc test.


swim tried this test with spice gold and silver, tho financial issues forced him to stop there.


SWIM DID COME UP POSITIVE ON 1 test.
the one he took after smoking some real weed.
it took between 12-18 hours for .3 grams of bud to work out of his system (testing with every urine, every 3 hours or so). NO DILUTION. 1 cup water (measured) ingested every hour and a half.



valseedian has heard of 1 false positive comeing from smoking 'zohai' blends, but this is not fully reliable information as he may just not have been clean for thc.



I'll be continuing this experimentation at some point, of course all effects, real or imagionary, are being felt by Valseedian's lab-ferret.
the doses that swim used to test each synthetic were usually more than 2x what he'd measure out just to mellow.
he was clean before testing any synthetics, and clean at the 6 and 12 hour marks, the experiment was set up somewhat strange in that swim would cross-dose.

ALL DOSES SMOKED:
he started with 10mg of jwh-018 after pissing clean on his first urine of the morning.
6 hours later passed another test, and administered 15mg of jwh-073
6 hours later passed another test, and administered 3mg of cp-47497, continuing with 1mg of cp's analog
the idea was that if a positive came up, he could then work twards figuring out which one it was. no positive was ever reached.


swim smoked .5 grams of some decent marijuana, passed a test at the 1 hour mark, failed a test at the 3 hour mark, and failed a test at the 6 hour mark, passing the first test 18 hours after administration hours later with minimal dilution if any at all, THE NEXT DAY"S FIRST URINE WAS POSITIVE, all sub-sequent urine's were clean.

a second experiment was set up similar to the last, with the exception of Dilution added. Swim diluted his urine as much as possible and only failed at the 3 hour test, passing the 6 hour test. water intake begun after initial inhalation.


I should note that the subject in question is an adult male cockasian, aprx~ 150lbs.

Reputation Comments on this post:

	interesting addition
	Thanks for carrying out these tests and sharing the interesting results.
	good experimental info
	Great information! Thank you for sharing it here for us who are curious about this very thing.

[honourableone]

Thanks forthat, it's good to see some direct experimental data.

Originally Posted by Valseedian

passing the first test 18 hours after administration hours later with minimal dilution if any at all, THE NEXT DAY"S FIRST URINE WAS POSITIVE, all sub-sequent urine's were clean.

I would have expected the positives to last a lot longer, but this makes sense because urine is most concentrated in the morning (which is why it is the ideal time to take pregnancy tests).

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by honourableone

Thanks forthat, it's good to see some direct experimental data.



I would have expected the positives to last a lot longer, but this makes sense because urine is most concentrated in the morning (which is why it is the ideal time to take pregnancy tests).

he is not athletic, but not out of shape. He is trying to find a subject for the next round of testing, he requires a female participant and a larger participant, to cover gender and size well enough

I find that positive tests have more to do with the exposure of the last 2-4 days than single use.. (that is, single use is less detectable than the same amount absorbed over time)

vals' friend just went cold-turkey, and if he can stay clean, val is going to test him daily to see how long it takes to clean out from a 2g/day habit.. 2nd urine daily if possible. luckily testing kits can be pretty in-expencive.

[psyche]

I would have expected the positives to last a lot longer, but this makes sense because urine is most concentrated in the morning (which is why it is the ideal time to take pregnancy tests).

There is a study somewhere in this forum that questions the earlier estimates of positive drug-tests. Sorry I don't have it at hand, but apparently giving a positive sample after a month of smoking is a gross lie. Usually even heavy smokers test negative after 7 days, and occasional smokers after 2-4 days. For a single smoking session the testing period is even shorter.

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by psyche

There is a study somewhere in this forum that questions the earlier estimates of positive drug-tests. Sorry I don't have it at hand, but apparently giving a positive sample after a month of smoking is a gross lie. Usually even heavy smokers test negative after 7 days, and occasional smokers after 2-4 days. For a single smoking session the testing period is even shorter.

I would not commit to this number as a 'bare minimum', as the numbers aren't in yet, but with what I do know, and the experiments I've held so far:

even a very very large person (upwards of 300lbs), smoking very very heavily over the course of more than years could lead to a cold-turkey test requiring 4 or 5 days off.

in short, no matter your habit, utilizing dilution of your urine, you should be able to pass with no more than 5 days of being clean, and swim has multiple experiences that show him he can pass a drug test with only 24 hours off, and 48 hours of lesser use. he says he can usually full-fil his 2 gram/day habit for the first 11 days, then goes down to 1 gram, 1/2 a gram and 0 grams in the days following, leading up to a test date. on test day, around 4 hours before your test is set to begin, drink water/juice untill you just can't anymore. B12 comples pills help to color and scent the urine and will also keep your vitamin levels more normal.

goldenseal is pointless
cranberry extract can be a helpful diuretic
diuretic teas are helpful (look into yogi brand Detox tea, berry is horrid, but regular and peach detox are amazing.)

one of the only tricks swim has found to fool a test other than that is to carry visine with him, applying just a few drops to the sample cup (too much will trip a 'cheat' indicator)

[psyche]

Originally Posted by Valseedian

one of the only tricks swim has found to fool a test other than that is to carry visine with him, applying just a few drops to the sample cup (too much will trip a 'cheat' indicator)

Wow. That would make visine pretty much all-purpose disguise for cannabis usage. Anyone else tried visine to fool an urine test?

[Valseedian]

Originally Posted by psyche

Wow. That would make visine pretty much all-purpose disguise for cannabis usage. Anyone else tried visine to fool an urine test?

swim has tested his friend, who up untill 6 days ago, smoked every day, atleast 1 gram, usually as much as 4.

swim's friend is 19 years old, 5'11, 210lbs, male. not athletic, but not fat.

all tests failed untill day 4.


each day 4 tests were taken. 1 with the first urine of the day, one with dilution at around noon, one without dilution later that night, and another with dilution afterwards (test, dilute, test wait test dilute,test dilution = 5 cups/as much as possible water ingested every 30 minutes for 2 hours, then 1 hour given to 'set')

day1,2,3 all 4 tests come up positive.
day 4,
test 1: positive
test 2: negative
test 3: positive
test 4: negative

day 5,
test 1: positive
test 2: negative
test 3: negative
no test 4 was taken

day 6
test 1: positive.
test 2: negative ( un-diluted)

it's currently day 6... I'm going to keep testing him each morning untill it comes up negative.

[honourableone]

How long was cannabis being used for prior to the six days of abstinence?

This is great info, but it might be better in the cannabis or (preferably) drug testing forums because you are no longer experimenting with synthetic cannabinoids. Maybe you could make a thread with your findings or add them to another if you find one detailing the results of similar tests?

[Valseedian]

the experiment isn't finished yet, once I've gotten him to piss clean for his first urine, I'll post the entire report.

use was around 2 years steady and another year on and off atleast.

[LaughingSamsDice]

Drug Testing and Legal Herbs:

Although I have currently not tested out the effects of Spice products and Drug Testing, I have info on RedXDawn Spark 20 new Legal Herb product.

I purchased Red X Dawn Spark 20 from my local head shop.

Ingredients: (as advertised on package)
Damiana, Colt's Foot, Mugwort, Lion's Tail, Mullein, Blue Lotus, Red Clover, Siberian Motherwort, Vanilla, Honey

I did a preliminary 12 panel drug screen before use of the product and all results were negative. No trace amounts of any illicit drugs including THC.

I then casually used the product over the course of the weekend (sat, sun). Almost a grams worth

On Monday I administered another 12 panel drug screen after using the product for 2 days testing for: ( Marijuana, Cocaine, Methamphetamine, Amphetamines, Ecstasy, Opiates, Phencyclidine, Benzodiazepines, Methadone, Barbiturates, Tricyclic Antidepressants, Oxycodone).

All Results came back Negative! With no trace amounts of any of those illicit drugs mentioned above.

I hope this can give peace of mind to those looking to try out legal herbs as an alternative to using controlled substances. (they work nicely! )

Additional Info:
I have only tested this product 1 time. Everybody's bio-chemistry is different.
I am an adult male about 6'0 / 158lbs with an average to athletic build.

[Valseedian]

I'm glad to be back from my hiatus, with my return I come bearing experimental data:

to finish the above post, it took 17 days to piss clean on the first urine of the morning, but 2nd piss without dilution can be passed after just 5 days, and 2nd with dilution CAN be passed after only 2.

as stated with last post, everyone reacts different, and it's a very complicated system, but these numbers are alteast factual, and should give a good bearing to anyone who's taking a test.


I must note, I've read 2 accounts of ex-smokers tripping piss tests because they were losing ALOT of weight, and releasing alot of the testing metabolite( 9-cxy-thc). Dieting, stimulants and excersize will all increase your urine's 9-c-thc concentration. sweating and consuming lots of lipids and protiens will help to channel the 9c-thc out different ways.

I find it's also helpful to carb-load the day prior... could be that it's building a layer of un-saturated lipids that will act as a barrier to the THC saturated adapose.... could be all in my mind.

[malsat]

Originally Posted by Valseedian

I would not commit to this number as a 'bare minimum', as the numbers aren't in yet, but with what I do know, and the experiments I've held so far:

even a very very large person (upwards of 300lbs), smoking very very heavily over the course of more than years could lead to a cold-turkey test requiring 4 or 5 days off.

in short, no matter your habit, utilizing dilution of your urine, you should be able to pass with no more than 5 days of being clean, and swim has multiple experiences that show him he can pass a drug test with only 24 hours off, and 48 hours of lesser use. he says he can usually full-fil his 2 gram/day habit for the first 11 days, then goes down to 1 gram, 1/2 a gram and 0 grams in the days following, leading up to a test date. on test day, around 4 hours before your test is set to begin, drink water/juice untill you just can't anymore. B12 comples pills help to color and scent the urine and will also keep your vitamin levels more normal.

goldenseal is pointless
cranberry extract can be a helpful diuretic
diuretic teas are helpful (look into yogi brand Detox tea, berry is horrid, but regular and peach detox are amazing.)

one of the only tricks swim has found to fool a test other than that is to carry visine with him, applying just a few drops to the sample cup (too much will trip a 'cheat' indicator)

Sorry, but what's the purpose of putting visine in the urine sample?

[runitsthepolice]

There is some data that suggests that a small amount of visine will lower the concentration of metabolites that are detected in the urine.

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/...g_info11.shtml

Swim wouldn't try it though

Reputation Comments on this post:

	Quite interesting stuff.
	fascinating

[yummyhotdogs]

sorry to bring this up - from what i've read so far, seems like jwh-018 is undetectable in UA, SWIM has to ask though, has SWIY tried a 13-type multi-drug test and passed it? where SWIM works (govt) they use a 13-type multi-drug testing kit.

[runitsthepolice]

Originally Posted by yummyhotdogs

seems like jwh-018 is undetectable in UA

Looks like you've answered your own question.

[TheTrueIrishSaint]

i have afoaf who is on probation for drug uasage and he is a big fan of smoking the greenery, yet he obviously can not, he gets tested by his officer weekly and would like to kno if there are certain typpes of spice that he can use or if they might all show upp as false positives? since he has failed tests in the past he is on a last chance basis and failing ends up in jail time...

[honourableone]

I find it hard to believe that a question that has been answered so many times still gets asked again. This thread has all of the information available on the subject, which is enough to go above and beyond answering the question.

[Armyguy]

Originally Posted by Bildo

Spice'd never show up on a drugs test!
There's no standard test for "drugs" you know, you have to be testing for specific metabolites. I'd say swiy best to stick to obscure ethnobioticals until swiy can stand up to your dad. Drug testing your 19 y/o son is not cool.

Well, I beg to differ. Either the department of defense is lying or they do indeed have methods of testing for spice products.

[runitsthepolice]

Originally Posted by Armyguy

Well, I beg to differ. Either the department of defense is lying or they do indeed have methods of testing for spice products.

I think you are misinformed.

Please reference where exactly the department of defense states that they are able to test for "spice products."

[nonsmokernow]

P.E.P. spice from the UK does not show up on Military UA tests. Confirmed.