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  #1  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:01
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

I saw recently that krokodil, the deadly solution made with codine (or other cheap opioids) and jet fuel among other crazy ingerdiants, is being used in arizona.

for those who dont know, the extremely cheap home made drug is popular in russia aswell as notorious. it is known to eat your skin from the inside out, making it look like the skin of a crocodile. from what i believe, missing veins causes that to happen more than anything, leaving the drug under the skin. once its under the skin it eats it up or something like that. im not sure what happens to a user if they never miss a vein (which...i never heard of) , but they say that people who use krokodil usually die, and die with in a year or two. even short term use can mess you up aswel.

Anyway, since they say the drug is 10-20 times cheaper than heroin and produces a similar effect when injected, do you think it might start popping up around the US as a "fake" form of dope that you dont really notice is actually krokodil until its too late. its usually liquid, (from the videos they show of russia) but im sure you could make it into some kinda "krokodil-hydrocloride" and drop it in wax baggies all the same. could it possibly be sold to users to make a quick buck or to raise profit margins? could it first just seem like shitty dope...until your skin starts getting eaten a bundle later, when you missed a vein and skin popped some of it? from what i see, the high seems to be pretty much the same as dope....this worries me.


Im not trying to sound like a stupid, scary news report. my questions are actually questions. im wondering if anyone knows more about krokodil and can re-asure me that I could easily tell the difference between shitty dope and a bag of powdered krokodil (if it can even be made). not that I dont trust my dealers, i just worry that somewhere down the line, someday, someone might get greedy after realizing how much money 10-20 times cheaper really means......

i hope that theres nothing to worry about and im just being high and nuts, watching the news in the middle of the night. so...yeah...anyone know more about krokodil use in the US?
  #2  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:34
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

I don't think anyone can guarantee you will be able to tell the difference between krokodil and actual heroin, because chances are you couldn't if someone really wanted to pass off the former as the latter. As you said, I'm sure aesthetically it's not too difficult to make them appear very similar to one another, if indeed it is possible to have solid krokodil. That much I have no idea.

I wonder if krokodil gives off some kind of awful fume from all the chemicals that go in it? But even if it does, this is definitely not a reliably way to distinguish drugs.

However, krokodil and heroin will absolutely not show up as the same drug on a thorough drug test, being that they are two related, but completely different drugs (heroin and codeine). I believe that in a reagent test while heroin and codeine do show up as similar colors, they are still distinct.

If this is something you are really concerned about I would recommend stocking up on some marquis reagent supplies. That is the only way you can positively tell the difference between two substances that otherwise superficially appear to be the exact same.
  #3  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:49
runnerupbeautyqueen runnerupbeautyqueen is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Likelihood of krokodil being passed off as heroin in the US: doubtful

I read that the effects krokodil only last like 45 minutes or something crazy like that. I remember reading that junkies basically had to spend all day and night cooking it just to not go into withdrawals. So I think that would tip off most regular users of heroin. If I did a shot and got sick within the hour that would be the last time I went to that dealer.

Secondly the reason krokodil exists over there is because heroin is in very short supply and very expensive. Also, the codeine needed to make it is available without a prescription in Russia. It wouldn't be worth the time or money for someone in the US to make it. For starters there is an abundance of cheap, high quality heroin in every state. Secondly, it would require a group of people to basically smurf the prescription codeine pills needed to make it. It just isn't time or cost effective when you consider the alternative (re:heroin) which basically just requires a little $ and a phone number. And most peoples standard heroin dose is able to stave off sickness for about half a day as opposed to what, an hour for krokodil?

I heard that krokodil was mostly just a media scare and that the pictures they were using of krokodil addicts were actually pictures of people suffering the effects of something else. It would also explain why there's only like 3 articles detailing krokodil and they all sound eerily familiar to one another. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that the number of addicts and the effects of it have most likely been grossly blown out of proportion.
  #4  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:01
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerupbeautyqueen View Post
I heard that krokodil was mostly just a media scare and that the pictures they were using of krokodil addicts were actually pictures of people suffering the effects of something else. It would also explain why there's only like 3 articles detailing krokodil and they all sound eerily familiar to one another. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that the number of addicts and the effects of it have most likely been grossly blown out of proportion.
I have seen a few documentaries on krokodil and regardless of whether or not those pictures are actually of krokodil users, the negative effects it can cause are definitely as horrifying as those images... or at least, as far as I've seen from some relatively reliable sources. I don't think you were saying anything to the contrary; I was mostly pointing that out for anyone who is skeptical. Krokodil wreaks absolute havoc on the body, and more frightening is how quickly it does so.

Many news stories sound eerily familiar to one another, especially on the internet, where shit is frequently lifted from place A and passed off as original in place B. :/

To the OP, It's obviously not as if krokodil is actually being smuggled in from Russia. As RUBQ pointed out, the cost of such a thing when heroin is fairly available in the US is foolish business for any dealer. The only way I could see krokodil, or another similar substance made from god-knows-what-opioid(s) and god-knows-what-other-crap making its way into the US is from Canada or Mexico, where codeine-- and some other opiates in Mexico, if I recall-- are available OTC.

RUBQ also pointed the two primary factors that make krokodil relatively common in Russia, being that heroin is not widely available and that codeine is easy to obtain. Neither of those things are really true in most areas of the US, depending on your definition of "widely available heroin." Either way, though, it's definitely easier to get H here than it is in Siberia.

That all said, I still recommend buying a drug testing kit for anyone who is primarily using things bought on the street. You are clearly worried about this anyway, and at the very least it might ease your mind some.
  #5  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:05
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

thank you for that bit of information about it only lasting 45 mins until you start getting sick. that is def a tell tale sign that something is wrong.

other than that though, just for the sake of conversation, i dont know what you guys are talking about,

1. codeine is prolly used cus its cheap and available but im sure you could use a ton of diff opioids to make krokodil.

2. oipoids are very much available to people in the US, especially to those who are already in the drug game. these would be the people trying to pass of the krokodil as dope. finding something as generic as codeine would be a walk in the park to any drug dealer, even ones low enough to want to do such a shitty thing. even if you werent already a drug dealer, painkillers are very easy to find in any city ive been in. we cant say that since a pharmacy doesnt sell them on a shelve they arent easy to find.

3. russia has, arguably, the worst heroin problem in the world. saying H isnt available in russia doesnt make sense. it is very much available. 90% of drug addicts in russia are heroin addicts opposed to the US's 18%.

but aside from all that...really, thank you for that piece of info about the 45 mins. that makes me alot less suspicious about something like this happening to someone. im not gonna pull out a drug identifying kit every time i cop, but i will def notice a 45min well time. thanks

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  #6  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:29
Petri6 Petri6 is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

The problem I've had with the so called "krokodil" from the beginning is that it's basically desomorphine crudely syntehesized from codeine and the health problems are caused by not purifying the product from all the toxic chemicals used and created in the synthesis.

But, codeine is widely availabe without prescription in a lot of different areas around the world. Now, if the synthesis to desomorphine is easy enough for a withdrawing russian addict to do in their kitchen, why hasn't better synthesised desomorphine popped up anywhere else in the world?

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  #7  
Old 02-10-2013, 05:42
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor View Post
1. codeine is prolly used cus its cheap and available but im sure you could use a ton of diff opioids to make krokodil.
Yes, codeine is used in "traditional" krokodil recipes. No one is arguing this, nor is anyone arguing that another opioid couldn't be used to make a similar substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor View Post
2. oipoids are very much available to people in the US, especially to those who are already in the drug game. these would be the people trying to pass of the krokodil as dope. finding something as generic as codeine would be a walk in the park to any drug dealer, even ones low enough to want to do such a shitty thing. even if you werent already a drug dealer, painkillers are very easy to find in any city ive been in. we cant say that since a pharmacy doesnt sell them on a shelve they arent easy to find.
You are missing one really crucial point here:

There is a big difference between being easy to find on the black market and easy to find on the shelves. We can't discuss it too thoroughly, but that difference is price. The vast majority of people, even connected drug dealers, are not going to get a greater profit from krokodil than they would from just selling the damn pills. Maybe some would... but pills are fucking expensive on the street, and that is good for those who sell them.

If a person who primarily deals heroin, and not pills, could potentially make krokodil that looked like heroin then there MIGHT be a small profit to be made, but the cost of the pills needed to make the krokodil would probably be more than that dealer would make from selling the krokodil as heroin. As for those who primarily work with pills, most pillheads want... well, PILLS. Krokodil is not a substitute for an OC 80, at least for someone who wants an OC 80. The last thing a dealer wants is to lose customers.

What do you think the motivation for someone making krokodil is, exactly? You can't just say "profit," because as I pointed out, most dealers would not benefit from this due to the price of prescription painkillers on the black market. And if there's no motivation, it won't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor View Post
3. russia has, arguably, the worst heroin problem in the world. saying H isnt available in russia doesnt make sense. it is very much available. 90% of drug addicts in russia are heroin addicts opposed to the US's 18%.
No, this is just not true, in the sense that saying "Russia" has arguably the worst heroin problem in the world is a total generalization of drug use in a fucking huge country. Western Russia, maybe, but Russia is a big place. There is very little heroin in the whole eastern half of the country, and this is exactly where krokodil has popped up. From all I have read, the krokodil problem seems to be almost completely limited to Siberia. There are always exceptions to every rule, but for the most part this has been very much an eastern Russian issue.

This is all COMPLETELY besides the fact that a drug dealer has nothing to gain by killing their customers in two years time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor View Post
but aside from all that...really, thank you for that piece of info about the 45 mins. that makes me alot less suspicious about something like this happening to someone. im not gonna pull out a drug identifying kit every time i cop, but i will def notice a 45min well time. thanks
This is by no means a reliable way of knowing whether or not you have krokodil, or otherwise some crazy amalgam of all sorts of things you shouldn't be injecting. There are a number of opioids that have short-lived highs; this alone is not an indicator of it being some insidious flesh-eating chemical. You are also the one who pointed out that a krokodil-like substance could probably be made from other opioids, and in this case there's no guarantee that the effects will be the exact same. "Non-traditional" krokodil made with oxycodone, for example, may last a full 3-4 hours. Who knows? If you want to be sure, testing is the only way. This doesn't mean you have to get a testing kit, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you aren't rolling the dice just about every single time you get a new batch. That's not a judgment, it's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petri6
Now, if the synthesis to desomorphine is easy enough for a withdrawing russian addict to do in their kitchen, why hasn't better synthesised desomorphine popped up anywhere else in the world?
It probably has, don't you think? Lots of things happen that don't make the news, but like you say, if it's that easy that a withdrawing heroin addict can make it in their kitchen then I almost feel like it's more unlikely that someone else in the same boat in another country didn't have the same bright idea.

I could be wrong, though. That's a total guess. However, necessity is the mother of invention... as they say.

Last edited by baZING; 02-10-2013 at 05:53.
  #8  
Old 02-10-2013, 06:42
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

touche, touche.

i think our biggest disagreement here is about the price of producing krokodil in the US and about the intentions of those who would be selling it off as dope. also, it seems we disagree on what happend in russia.

1. from what ive seen on this site, the vice mini documentary, and TV, krokodil is supposed to be much much much cheaper than dope. I agree that some painkillers are profitable enough to settle for and i dont think anyone would be making krokodil with these types. from personal experience, I know that a bottle of tylenol 3's (since we are focused on codeine here) is really damn cheap if your buying wholesale, even on the black market. im not saying someone looking to make money off krokodil would go out and buy a bunch of oxy 30's. im talking cheap stuff here, like they use in russia. people use it in russia cus its much more affordable (ill go more into detail about that later, but basically krokodil popped up in a heroin ridden city among broke addicts ) . it would be really cheap here too that means that selling krokodil could be very profitable.

2. so, if im right, passing off krokdil as dope would be a quick easy score for someone who is looking to make some money off of people that arent from the area or what ever. crack heads smoke sheet rock every day. fake drug sales are not uncommon in open air drug markets. In a city like philly, people get played all the time. I know cus I live here myself and see it happen. you hear about some assholes burning people all the time with some fake shit and then making off. and if its happening here, its prolly happening in other american cities also. im only concered about people that are forced to go cop on the street cus their dealer's phone is dead or what not. or anyone in a situation where they must try something new from people they dont know. im not saying dealers are looking to poisen and kill their normal customers.

3. alright. if you say that im wrong about russia having a bad dope problem then fine. BUT from the vice documentary, I remember that the krokodil epedemic started in a city called novakitznez or something like that located in siberia. before krokodil hit, the town was already in serious trouble due to heroin. the use was outstanding. when a cheaper form came out, people jumped on it cus they dont have money. so if you watch vice, you will see that krokodil became an epidemic in a town where heroin was available. I think all of this krokodil stuff has to do with money in general.


4. about the 45 min thing. yes im well aware that if you start to get sick with in 45 of a shot that doesnt automatically mean you just did krokodil. what i was saying is that, so far, your 45 min thing is the only difference I have heard between the two drugs when speaking about the way it makes you feel, so i was thanking you for that bit of info, even if it is a pretty small piece. i wasnt being sarcastic.


so, basically, I think that selling off krokodil as dope would be very profitable for someone who could make it work, given that its much cheaper than heroin it seems to be. people sell fake shit all the time, even if they could make more money in the long run not fucking with people. i see it all the time. its stupid in many cases but it still happens. also, krokodil came about it a heroin ridden town so availability isnt the issue.

i suggest you watch the vice documentary on youtube. its pretty interesting. even if you have seen it before, maybe watch it again. i will and if i notice that something i said was out of bounds, ill be happy to come back and tip my hat.

pharmmajor added 19 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petri6 View Post
The problem I've had with the so called "krokodil" from the beginning is that it's basically desomorphine crudely syntehesized from codeine and the health problems are caused by not purifying the product from all the toxic chemicals used and created in the synthesis.

But, codeine is widely availabe without prescription in a lot of different areas around the world. Now, if the synthesis to desomorphine is easy enough for a withdrawing russian addict to do in their kitchen, why hasn't better synthesised desomorphine popped up anywhere else in the world?
petri 6, I have two vage ideas why theres no safe form of it found anywhere.

1. the only way to make a potent form of desomorphine, potent enough to make the process worth it, is to use these crazy deadly ingredients you find people using in russia.

2. then why dont they just filter them out after? maybe these deadly ingredients have to be somewhat active in the final solution to actually potentiate the drug. OR maybe they at-least need to be present in the final solution for the potentiation to work.

I could be 100% wrong. im just thinking out loud. what do you think?

Last edited by pharmmajor; 02-10-2013 at 06:42. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #9  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:14
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

I should re-clarify that I do not mean to have suggested that Russia doesn't have a heroin problem. It seems as though the large majority of krokodil users start with heroin, and obviously to begin on heroin you have to be able to procure it.

However, much like here in the US, large cities and generally more populated areas are going to be where the drugs are, not in the middle of a wilderness like Siberia. Of course there are cities in Siberia, too, but overall the population density is something like 2-3 people per square mile. Even in the largest cities, there's not a lot of money there.

I have a friend who just came back from living and teaching English in Novosibirsk for three years. She uses opiates occasionally, and heroin is her DoC. She had a lot of problems coming across it in Novosibirsk (and she was in the "right" crowd for it, including someone who later passed away from his krokodil use) but no issue when visiting friends in Moscow.

So, to be fair, some of my perception of this situation is based on her experiences but some is based on what I've seen and read and simple logic. As I said, there's little money to be made for heroin traffickers in Eastern Russia. There's no arguing that some gets in, sometimes, but there's not enough profit to take the risk associated with trafficking drugs into a Siberian city. It's not that it's completely unavailable, it's that it's completely unreliable and incredibly expensive.

And, so, enter krokodil.

I suppose you are right that there might be some profit to be made for heroin dealers, but still, I just don't think this scenario is very likely overall. As I mentioned at the end of my last post to Petri, shit happens all the time that doesn't make the news; who's to say that some scummy dealers haven't already been selling krokdil-like products passed off as dope in isolated incidents? There are a lot of factors already discussed in this thread that are feeding into Russia/Siberia's krokodil problem just don't exist, or don't exist in the same way or same magnitude, in the US.

You can't really generalize wholesale codeine as cheap everywhere for everyone... this will vary completely on location and by person. Obviously I won't/can't say exactly, but I know from speaking with my usual guy that no prescription painkiller-- codeine included-- could be considered "cheap," even at the wholesale level. Clearly this differs where you are, but that's why it's impossible to generalize. With all that said, the only dealers who will benefit from the selling of krokodil passed off as something else must fulfill very specific criteria.

The purpose of selling krokodil as opposed to a completely non-psychoactive substance would be to maintain customers. If you don't care about keeping them, why not sell total bunk? Considering a dealer would need to be able to find large amounts of codeine for small amounts of money, primarily sell heroin already, and have at least some customers that are desperate enough to come back even if sold krokodil... it just all seems pretty unlikely.

I certainly don't see how it could become an epidemic in the US, not that I think you're saying that necessarily. There's always the possibility of isolated pockets of such nonsense popping up, but as I already said, there's always the possibility it's been happening for well longer than the media is aware of.

Or maybe not.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:37
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Pharm
I presume that after making krok it is a liquid? Would if be hard to then turn it into a powder that resembles H?
  #11  
Old 02-10-2013, 07:49
Petri6 Petri6 is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baZING View Post
It probably has, don't you think? Lots of things happen that don't make the news, but like you say, if it's that easy that a withdrawing heroin addict can make it in their kitchen then I almost feel like it's more unlikely that someone else in the same boat in another country didn't have the same bright idea.

I could be wrong, though. That's a total guess. However, necessity is the mother of invention... as they say.
I would think that a new drug on the drug market would more often than not cross the media threshold, especially if it's in any way connected to such a highly sensationalized drug as "krokodil". But more than that, there are quite a few international drug forums such as this, where I believe it would be brought up if there would be a relativile simple way to synthesise a powerful morphine analogue from prescription free codeine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor
petri 6, I have two vage ideas why theres no safe form of it found anywhere.

1. the only way to make a potent form of desomorphine, potent enough to make the process worth it, is to use these crazy deadly ingredients you find people using in russia.

2. then why dont they just filter them out after? maybe these deadly ingredients have to be somewhat active in the final solution to actually potentiate the drug. OR maybe they at-least need to be present in the final solution for the potentiation to work.

I could be 100% wrong. im just thinking out loud. what do you think
No, the desomorphine in it's pure form would be active on itself and wouldn't need any potentiation from the chemicals used in the synthesis. I think that the impurities in "krokodil" are more a result from lack of interest, equipment and knowhow in purifying the final product. A junkie cooking up a batch doesn't want to take the time to cook a pure product but instead wants a quick hit.

Now, on the other hand, a chem major in a western country with interest in a drug synthesis who has prescription free codeine and the necessary equipment and chemicals to do the synthesis properly would end up with a pure product which would be a really big deal.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself in a coherent way here but this is my reasoning behind being very skeptical and confused about the whole ordeal.
  #12  
Old 02-10-2013, 12:23
Docta Docta is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

This is not a synthesis discussion its a question of "can H users be tricked by it?" and according to journal papers on the subject (Haemmig,2011) the answer is yes! Disregarding variations in half-life it behaves pharmacologically not very different than heroin so the user may not become aware that it isn't heroin until the variations in half-life become apparent.

Whether or not it could be substituted for heroin is dependent on what recipe is used and the quality of the kitchen chemistry. The very early versions of “krokodil” did not have an extraction end phase to isolate it from the reaction mixture (Abdala,Grund, Tolstov, Kozlov, & Heimer, 2006) but by the time (Savchuk et al. 2008) published his paper conducting gas chromatography newer recipes had added an extraction phase with conversion rates up to 75%. Savchuk said, “desomorphine is synthesized under different conditions and by different procedures” meaning there is not just one “krokodil”. Variations in production methods make for differences in potency of desomorphine or its four synthetic analogues and most importantly the amount of the reaction mixture that ends up in the “krokodil”. Note I add the citations of published references.

What needs to be explained is that 90% of the information on the internet regarding “krokodil” is either wrong, or is presented without reference or citation. The absolute abundance of information on the subject would suggest an overwhelming stock of facts and evidence but when you run down the quotation or figures there is not a great deal of substance to go with it. “krokodil” is an evolution of recent social history of young people in the old soviet union cooking up injectable drugs in a tradition called Samogon (Moonshining) emulating whats available in the West (Grund et al., 2009;John, 1986; Zábransk´y, 2007) that has gone through stages that have to be understood before questions can be asked about “krokodil”.

The illicit production of krokodil in the US is just not going to get up and running because there is so much more to this on a social level then there is a wont for some cheap homemade injectable opioid.

Attached is a document called Breaking worse in it three academics attempt to explain the situation and catalyst necessary for the “krokodil” phenomenon to take place doing there best to sift through the bull shit, take the time to read it if you can and you'll have a different prospective on “krokodil” its not just a drug that can be easily transplanted from one country to another.

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  #13  
Old 03-10-2013, 00:20
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

I got a couple things to say then I have an important question:

first off, thank you docta, i will deff take a look at that pdf.

Bazing, the point you made about selling bunk to marks instead of krokodil makes alot of sense. your right in that it would be stupid to go through the hassle of making it and selling it to one timers and in most cases, selling bunk instead would make the most sense. i could argue that selling something that might not be discovered to be fake right away could be a better and more profitable option than selling total bunk. making that argument though is straying away from what im really interested in finding out though. let me tell you what i mean.

unfortunatly, people on the street dont always act in a smart kinda way. sometimes there a bunch of sickos out there selling shit that will hurt you even if it makes no economic sense for them to sell. even if they are loosing money, and potential customers, and risking getting in deep shit, there are assholes out there that sell hot shots of dope and other things like it. its very hard to determine the exact likely hood of the actions of people that find something like selling krokodil off as dope as a possibility.

we could argue about that stuff forever, not saying this even is a real argument, but a thoughtful conversation about something we see from two slightly different angles. ANYWAY, my main point of making this post is to find out:

CAN HOME MADE DESOMORPHINE, AKA KROKODIL, BE MADE INTO POWDER FORM IN ANY SETTING AS ADVANCED (OR LESS ADVANCED) AS THE TRADITIONAL US METH LAB.

if the answer is YES. that means that crappy shit could happen to H users out there. my question really is, is it possible? and if it is possible, that means that odds are, it will happen to a select few, or a bunch. like ive said, assholes on the corner out in open air drug markets are capable of and have done really sick things in the past regarding fake drugs. even if it isnt smart or profitable, it happens. and the fact that this situation might even be profitable is a little scary.

second, IF IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE HOMEMADE DESOMORPHINE, AKA KROKODIL INTO A POWDER TO SERVE AS A FAKE FORM OF HEROIN, IS THERE ANYTHING AN H USER CAN DO TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BEFORE BAD STUFF STARTS HAPPENING TO THEM?

for the record, i dont think this is going to be some kind of epidemic or a major problem. also, i dont think selling the stuff off as dope would effect a large amount of people. but i do speculate that it could effect some in the near future and i just think we should all keep an eye out for each other if we notice something might be wrong. the half life seems to be the only diff so far, so being sure is something that will be very hard (making it that much easier for the sickos). but from one junkie to other junkies out there, i dont think we should underestimate how fucked up some people can be when the ability to harm falls into their hands.

just keep an eye out. thats all. hopefully users will be too deep into their nodds to keep an eye out in the first place. off real, not fake, genuine, relatively (when compared to krokodil) safe, H.

Last edited by pharmmajor; 03-10-2013 at 00:30. Reason: grammatical sense.
  #14  
Old 03-10-2013, 04:06
Petri6 Petri6 is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docta View Post
Attached is a document called Breaking worse in it three academics attempt to explain the situation and catalyst necessary for the “krokodil” phenomenon to take place doing there best to sift through the bull shit, take the time to read it if you can and you'll have a different prospective on “krokodil” its not just a drug that can be easily transplanted from one country to another.
Thank you very much for this article! It, in addition to the links it contained to other international drug forums, also answered my guestions. This is a quote from a thread referenced in the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by adder
And shoot me but even being a chemist I couldn't really synthesize desomorphine and PURIFY it having any tablets containing codeine + something and chemicals I listed. This calls for pure codeine salt to start with.
So the reason why there is virtually no illicit desomorphine production in western countries where codeine is prescription free is that the end product would be very hard to purify and that codeine could be used as a precursor in synthesing more easily and safely syntehesised opioids as evidenced in New Zealand with the "homebake heroin".

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor
CAN HOME MADE DESOMORPHINE, AKA KROKODIL, BE MADE INTO POWDER FORM IN ANY SETTING...
Yes, from what I read krokodil (meaning the crudely synthesised desomorphine with a lot of possible other opioid agonists as impurities) could quite easily be made into a powder form. However, this is very very unlikely to happen in the western countries and especially the US where codeine is not abundantly available. I urge you to read the article and the threads which they are referencing in the article as they give out a pretty clear picture of what "krokodil" is and why it's unlikely to pop up in the west.

Now, if impure krokodil would against all odds surface in the western countries, one way to distinguish it from heroin is that it would cause a massive and dangerous histamine reaction caused by the codeine analogues contained in the impure end product.
  #15  
Old 03-10-2013, 05:25
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

petri, are you saying that major histamine reactions occur every time someone uses krokodil? so one of the ways you can tell if you just did it is that you develop really bad rashes and things like that? i cant imagine how someone could continue using it for years if that were the case, being that the reactions would be major and dangerous.

would the histamine reactions only occur if you miss a vein the same way the skin eating occurs, or would it really happen every time you use it? (I would think it would occur either way). do you think users form a tolerance so these reactions only occur a couple times?

you got me curious about these allergic reactions can you clarify please?
  #16  
Old 03-10-2013, 07:02
Petri6 Petri6 is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmmajor View Post
petri, are you saying that major histamine reactions occur every time someone uses krokodil? so one of the ways you can tell if you just did it is that you develop really bad rashes and things like that? i cant imagine how someone could continue using it for years if that were the case, being that the reactions would be major and dangerous.

would the histamine reactions only occur if you miss a vein the same way the skin eating occurs, or would it really happen every time you use it? (I would think it would occur either way). do you think users form a tolerance so these reactions only occur a couple times?

you got me curious about these allergic reactions can you clarify please?
It would all depend on the quality of the synthesis and the purity of the end product. In the article they state that samples collected (presumably by law enforcement agencies in the Eurasian area) of supposed desomorphine contain it from a range varying from trace amounts to 75%. Apparently depending on how the synthesis is done, the end product will contain unreacted codeine and either a-chlorocodide and dihydrodesoxycodeine or iodocodide and diiodocodide and iodomorphine as impurities among others (I'm no chemist so this is all collected from another forum, the links are found on page two of the article) such as iodine and phosphorous and the solution would be very corrosive if not basified correctly.

As with codeine, when you take it orally, you will get some histamine release with possible rashes etc. But injected you would get a more massive and possibly life threatening amount of histamine release. This would supposedly be true with atleast some of the codeine analogues (and of course unreacted codeine itself) in the impure end product. And this would actually be more of a risk if you hit the vein as it would be more rapid. No, you don't create tolerance for the histamine effects but some addicts try to combat these effects with also injecting an antihistamine (mostly promethasine which in itself is dangerous to inject). But considering all the other nasty shit literally destroying their skin, veins and muscles down to the bone, I guess the risk of anaphylatic shock and edema are among the least of their worries.

As I said, I'm no chemist and I don't fully understand the synthesis, the possible impurities and their pharmacological effects on the end user. You will get a much better picture by reading the article and the relevant threads. I'm sorry that I can not give you direct links to those threads because linking to another forum is against the rules, but as stated, you will find them on page two of the article.
  #17  
Old 14-10-2013, 16:50
SpunkyKisses SpunkyKisses is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

I think it could be passed off as "tar" but where I'm from tar is hard to find. It's mainly "China white". Krokodil would be hard to pass off as China because china is...well... White. krokodil is a nasty black liquid. I think people would notice if their dope went from being white to black. I certainly think they'd question it.
  #18  
Old 21-10-2013, 06:01
pharmmajor pharmmajor is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

new krokodil shit. CHICAGO now. next? who knows? oh wait...I do. New York. yes its in new york now.. im sayin.... keep an eye out people. dont underestimate people and what they will do for a cheap high or what a dealer would do for an easy dollar. check these out:

"According to the Joliet hospital, the five people brought in who may have used krokodil said they thought they were buying heroin." - CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/health...l-zombie-drug/

"KROKODIL HITS THE STREETS OF NEW YORK" --- http://thoughtcatalog.com/sal-ramire...treets-of-nyc/

and its clear as a liquid and white as a powder so it can be cut into white china if someone wanted to. im used to white as well, being from philly, so you know ill be keeping an eye out too.
  #19  
Old 21-10-2013, 08:02
soso soso is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Pharmmajor
All of these cases are unconfirmed and the footage in the first link looks a lot like footage of krok adicts from Russia.
Krokidil the party drug found in trendy nightclubs??? Yeah right. What a load of bollox.
If it was gonna be found anywhere it would be in the poorest areas with the worst heroin problems not trendy clubs.
  #20  
Old 21-10-2013, 13:30
Solinari Solinari is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Even if "Krokodil" is making an appearance in 'The West' then it's going to be desomorphine and not the nasty contaminated mess they are cooking up in Russia. It just seems so unlikely to me that this stuff is being manufactured in large amounts but if it is and it's been made in to a white crystalline powder then that sounds like chemical purity to me therefore the risks associated with "Krokodil" won't exist since it's the impurities in these toxic concoctions that are causing the flesh rotting effects we see.

I said this in my other post too but I suspect there are many people in Russia who are quite skilled at making relatively pure desomorphine and I suspect there will be a few people who know what they are doing that have made it in other countries too. It's the people who don't know what they are doing and frankly couldn't care less about chemical purity that are being reported in the media. Who wants to report about people getting high off a nice pure cheap easy to make version of heroin?

I am certain that desomorphine in its pure form does not cause the necrosis seen in Russian "Krokodil" users. I am pretty sure that the dangerous contaminated gloop they are using in Russia could not be turned in to a powder that resembles heroin without first purifying it in to the relatively safe desomorphine.

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Your right there Krokodil is a method for making a drug not a type of drug. Desomorphine is an opiate like any other.

Last edited by Solinari; 02-01-2014 at 16:15.
  #21  
Old 31-10-2013, 00:39
Kate023 Kate023 is offline
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Re: Krokodil use in the US was on the news recently. can H users be tricked by it?

Just wondering, has anyone heard news on the status of those that were admitted to the hospital in Chicago? Were there any long-term health effects? Also, it said on the news that these people purchased a single "hit" of heroin, which confused me a little. Did the people buy a bag or like was it all cooked up and ready to go in shot form?

Okay, well I just found a follow-up article and video about 2 of the women from Chicago. Check out the woman's leg:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4109719.html

Last edited by Kate023; 31-10-2013 at 00:55. Reason: added content

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