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  #1  
Old 10-05-2012, 19:07
P1-O2 P1-O2 is offline
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250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

I would just like to report on my health and experiences with long term synthetic cannabinoid usage.
**Update**
: The second half of this report, as well as my experience with a 5-day withdrawal period, cannabis, and what effects were felt at the end of this period is in post number 8.


Drug Usage:
A cat I met used one gram of Bath Salts (Beta-Ketones) during this period.
That same cat started 2mg Lorazepam/day and 30mg Mirtazapine/night during this period.
The same cat has since switch to 1.5mg Clonazepam/day and says it is superior to Lorazepam in regards to interaction with cannabinoids.

Blend usage:
Kush - Blueberry and original. 5/10 potency, low quality herb. 10+ packages
Sexy - Original. 7/10 potency, medium quality herb. 3-5 packages
Aztec Warrior - 6/10 potency, medium quality herb. 10+ packages
Space Cadet - Original. One pack - and then the packaging was changed. 8/10 potency, medium herb.
Space Cadet Flight Risk - Blueberry, original, and strawberry. 8/10 potency, high quality herb. 10+ packages
Gucci - Original. 4/10 potency, garbage quality herb. 3 packages
K2 Gold - 7/10 potency, medium quality herb. 1 package
Mr. Nice Guy - 9/10 potency, medium quality herb. 1 package
Down 2 Earth, Climax - 7/10 potency, medium quality herb. 1 package
M20 Ultra Incense - 7/10 potency, medium quality herb. 9 packages

I have also used 3-4 grams of AM-2201 from two different vendors.

During the last 250 days of usage, I have experienced a variety of positive and negative symptoms. I will list the main consideration and then go into more detail.

Positive:
Creativity and introspection.
Potency.
Dissociation and euphoria.

Negative:
Derealization
Dissociation
Appetite & Bowel response
Short lasting highs.

Derealization - During pure AM-2201 usage, and for several weeks to a month afterward, I experienced derealization. I felt that through the heightened sense of introspection and openness, that I could boil everything down to the basics and see things for what they were. This was not a positive period of time, but I did learn positive things.

Dissociation - Dissociation tends to settle in as tolerance increases. The dissociation's length of time and severity really depends on the person and how much they are using. Dissociation may be distressing to people who are not used to it. These effects also fade within 1-3 weeks after ceasing heavy use.

Appetite & Bowel response - Synthetic Cannabinoids appear to strongly affect appetite. When you ingest them, you want to eat, but when you withdraw you will want to eat nothing. This drawback usually ends up putting people in uncomfortable places when they don't taper correctly or keep a healthy diet during withdrawal. I do seem to have irregular bowel movements from time to time when smoking.

Short Lasting Highs - 30-45 minutes is usually when the peak comes and goes. These synthetics aren't really designed to be used for long period of time during the day.

As far as tolerance is concerned, I have had issues with it in the past. I've learned that synthetics are not as devilish as they first appear as long as you can employ some self control. I've settled into a pattern of smoking 2-3 times per day (mid-day, and night) and that is about the ceiling limit of usage before my tolerance spikes. Even at this level, I occasionally need to take days where I smoke only once, or not at all, to bring tolerance back down.

Since the time that I started taking benzodiazepines for unrelated Generalized Anxiety Disorder, my experience with synthetic cannabinoids has improved. The general effects of benzodiazepines completely negate the negative aspects of the blends (anxiety, paranoia, delirium).
Unfortunately these two substances are highly addictive. Mix with caution.

I have taken two blood tests recently and one of them showed high levels of calcium in the blood. The second test showed normal levels. These were within two days of each other and I did not cease smoking for the blood tests.

Any other users who have reported or find high calcium levels should consider bringing it up - or talking to your doctor. Allegedly, the likely cause would be a benign tumor on the parathyroid glands. When I confirm whether or not I have a tumor, I will report back. Other than this, there have been no health issues.

I hope this helps, and I am sharing this in the spirit of harm reduction and freedom of information. I am also interested in how these chemicals affect the body over a long period of time. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that you can safely and reasonably enjoy synthetic cannabinoids on a daily basis.

Good luck!

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Exceptional amount of work. A++

Last edited by P1-O2; 18-05-2012 at 20:23.
  #2  
Old 11-05-2012, 23:00
cannabinoia cannabinoia is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

A friends pet donkey reported this to me:

He has always been a firm believer in moderation with synthetic cannabinoids, particularly AM-2201 (also having used some JWH compound in blends). Usually smoke once or twice a day (pure AM-2201 powder), and dont smoke any at all one or two days per week. It helps keeps tolerance down, and keeps withdrawal out of the picture altogether. They can really be quite an enjoyable alternative to cannabis for those who cannot smoke due to drug testing. All the horror stories related about them usually involve irresponsible use (constant redosing), or incorrect/inaccurate dosages (eyeballing pure powder for instance). If you can mitigate those two issues, cannabinoids are fairly safe to use and enjoy!

Creativity is definitely enhanced for this donkey, watercolor painting is very enjoyable as is any musical instrumentation. Piano and guitar for this donkey in particular, the harmonies sometimes create a synesthestic effect. Feeling the sounds and sometimes (if a high dosage was imbibed) seeing the sounds too. Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

cannabinoia added 2 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Also FYI this friends pet donkey is at about 150 days of AM-2201 powder usage and prior to that about 11 months of JWH based compounds found in various blends (K2 Defiant Summit, K2 Blonde, K2 Summit, Fuzion among others).

Post Quality Evaluations:
Fantastic advice for people. This is a great first reply.
Awesome post thanks buddy I was worried using in moderation would hurt me.

Last edited by cannabinoia; 11-05-2012 at 23:00. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #3  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:46
LedZepp LedZepp is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

First, I'm glad to see at least two people using in moderation. A little self-control really can tame this dragon.

Second, both above reports mentioned creativity and/or introspection. AFOAF swears that herbal incense makes him a better guitar player. Literally, a more proficient, precise, and faster player. It also makes AFOAF deeply philosophical, or at least it seems that way when he's peaking.
  #4  
Old 12-05-2012, 20:26
HiIQ HiIQ is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

P1-O2, Does your cat prefer the K2 and other spice blends v.s. bath salts and Am2201? (I think most of the spice blends are made with one of the JWH chemicals.) The lastest spice which you can get from smoke shops gave my cat an etherial high with superb enlightened feelings. Much better than the paranoia high from the original spice made with JWH-018. They're probably made with the newer JWH-210 or 250.
  #5  
Old 13-05-2012, 00:54
P1-O2 P1-O2 is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiIQ View Post
P1-O2, Does your cat prefer the K2 and other spice blends v.s. bath salts and Am2201? (I think most of the spice blends are made with one of the JWH chemicals.) The lastest spice which you can get from smoke shops gave my cat an etherial high with superb enlightened feelings. Much better than the paranoia high from the original spice made with JWH-018. They're probably made with the newer JWH-210 or 250.
First I want to note that my experience with bath salts was highly negative, and mildly positive. When I first ingested a bath salt, I carried the decimal one place too far and ended up consuming ~200mg instead of ~30. It was... mildly frightening but a good high. Unfortunately I decided to go ahead and use it day on, day off, for about 6 days.
I crashed right at the end of it. After that, I had 500 milligrams remaining, and I used only 10-30mg bumps throughout the course of 1.5 months. Nothing positive came of using bath salts, and they are so risky.

I absolutely am a firm believer that the safest blends to smoke are Space Cadet flight risk, anything made by B.C.s Finest, anything made by fertoman, K2, Aztec (and whoever makes it, because they do sexy too), and Mr. Nice Guy. I have smoked Space Cadet Flight risk at 1gram/day for several months, and it hasn't been really much of a problem. I don't like that it saps my money, but it hasn't sent me into the doctor yet - not even close.

However it is my personal belief that smoking AM-2201 in its pure form is safer than risking what is mixed into the smokeshop blends. I used AM-2201 for a period of about two to three months and did not have a problem with it. I would habitually prepare cigarettes in my pack with a milligram or two of AM-2201 for when I had a lot of time to kill at school and wanted to study. The enhanced creativity really got me interested in what I was doing, and the afterglow of mild AM-2201 use feels very pleasant to me. The result was having a calm and focused mindset by the next class usually!

Unfortunately, AM-2201 is not immune to being cut with other substances. I personally have not had a problem with this by avoiding sketchy sites. I deem a vendor's website sketchy when it has any of the following qualities:
1. They appear to sell an extremely wide range of substances. Unless they are a wholesale supplier, quality control could be a problem.
2. They appear to have poor translation/grammar in their English text. Unfortunately I really can't trust the quality of something from an unknown country or somebody that doesn't know what they are doing with something simple like plaintext on a website.
3. They are a very new website.

Now, on the reverse, there are qualities that stand out for retailers that I have had no problem ingesting their AM-2201:
1. They listed the states they can ship to directly on the front page. You know right away that they are checking the laws.
2. They sell only a few cannabinoids (or only one!!), and possibly a blend or two.
3. Their support system is on top of things. One time I literally had the owner call me up after hours and resolve an issue with shipping - so that my package would arrive when I expected it.

I also can relate to the current smokeshop blends not causing me the paranoia or anxiety. Unfortunately, I take benzos, and have tolerance, so that could easily explain it. It should be noted that for my first ~1-2 months of using blends and AM-2201 I had the paranoia. Over time it seems like the body gets used to the state you put yourself in, and it becomes much more pleasant; being moderate also does the same thing. Mr. Nice Guy and Strawberry Cough still give me a cannabinoid high similar to my first few weeks - but I have only recently tried them. So far they are fantastic. What I assume is that the makers of smokeshop blends learned that making super-potent herb is a recipe for panic attacks which result in media craze and emergency room visits and bad reputations. I think some of them probably also clued in that intake needs to stay moderate - otherwise the tolerance curve is alarming.

One question I have is whether or not any users feel like they can "tell" what chemicals are in the blend. Personally, I feel like I can usually tell whether or it's an AM-2201 straight or something unknown/mixed. AM-2201 feels like a unique high to me. Space Cadet, for example, feels like a mixed high - it is calmer and more inebriating than AM-2201 which makes me feel sharpened and focused. I also am talking about moderate to strong amounts. We all know what happens when you ingest a lot at once - usually disorienting and the high is too overwhelming to compare. Obviously the "high" is in now way an indicator of what you are smoking, but I would like to hear if anyone else felt that way.

Last - I wanted to touch on the creativity/introspection. I listed derealization as a negative symptom, because for most people it will be. For me, the slight derealization and dissociation with cannabinoids absolutely puts me in a heightened state. I love to just sit and listen to music while I explore concepts, emotions, people, philosophy. I also highly enjoy doodling in Photoshop and working on art. My close relative has also reported the exact same feelings. She loves to make crafts or just explore concepts in the mind as well. I learned very much about myself and felt like I gained a more mature understanding of the world around me. I also have learned how to be moderate with my intake, and this forum has spurred my interest in my personal nutrition/health.

I would like to thank everyone who has commented so far. Your advice is fantastic and I am glad to hear that there are other users out there who are enjoying these substances in moderation. Three cheers for harm reduction.

Post Quality Evaluations:
wow! just what I was looking for! Thank you!

Last edited by P1-O2; 13-05-2012 at 01:38.
  #6  
Old 13-05-2012, 02:29
bufalantan bufalantan is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

post ban edit

Last edited by bufalantan; 15-03-2014 at 04:00.
  #7  
Old 17-05-2012, 21:41
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

I guess I'll throw everyone the curveball.
Lets say a Rhino has been smoking mostly just White Rhino blend for well over a year. Not in any moderation. The Rhino always was a stoner, but now works in a safety critical environment, and therefore must submit to random drug testing. The beast smokes enough to basically constantly maintain a buzz. About 45 grams every 2 weeks. Nonstop. Side effects? The shit plugs your pipe like a mother f$(*#$&. The latest "strain" (the Rhino doesn't know the specifics of the active ingredients) stinks like rotten fish. Yup. It smells like a dirty stripper pole. Positives? It costs less then pot. The Rhino can afford to maintain a buzz 24/7 as he pleases while with pot could barely smoke enough to keep his sanity. Basically the Rhino feels as though his brain at its natural pace is to fast to process, self medication slows the speed to what he is able to keep up with. Honestly I read all these experiences and think that you people are crazy, then I read another 20 and think, wow, maybe there is something strange about the Rhino. Don't get me wrong, there were a couple of "bad highs" where there was a new batch and the potency "kinda got ya by the boo boo" but shit, who hasn't had that time where you were at that place and they just kept passing it around, and it just kept coming. Big deal. This stuff must really be some wild shit. Maybe there really is something wrong with the Rhino that this is the proper medication for? I mean, the Rhino handles some crazy shit for at work, and the Rhino is the best at what he does. The best. But the Rhino is stoned the whole time. How is this put, the Rhino is the Anomaly?
  #8  
Old 18-05-2012, 18:00
P1-O2 P1-O2 is offline
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Re: 250+ Days Synthetic Cannabinoid Report

I want to add some more useful information to the report, and then I will address a few questions below. The following report is my experience with Cannabis and Withdrawals after this 250+ day experience.

Withdrawal:
To prepare for my withdrawal, I decided to go full force and give my tolerance a bit of a shock. I went for BCs-Finest "Strawberry Cough" (almost chose Gorrila-dro but it said no Napthoylindoles(sp))
I smoked about 1.5 grams a day, keeping the high going from afternoon into the evening over four smoke sessions.

On Monday, I dropped all synthetics and went for the real stuff. I will explain how the switch effected me and how the highs have changed.

Day 1: I hit mid-afternoon and I am traveling. I actually travel about 12 hours today, and I started to feel that familiar urge to smoke around 2:30pm. If you have been reading my earlier report, you will know that I smoke mid-day and then evenings. (2-3 sittings)
At around 4:30pm I became incredibly desperate to smoke something, and bummed a Capri off of a wonderfully nice lady. This didn't help *much*. My stomach was nauseous, my head was swimming, and my muscles ached. I did take 2.0mg Clonazepam during travel, and couldn't stomach a lot of food. There were way too many factors here for me to narrow it down.

Night 1:
I start smoking Cannabis, using amounts smaller than what I usually use for spice, about half. The high is overwhelming. It feels like there are 40 different cannabinoids in my brain, and I do not like it.
I find this incredibly humorous, because it totally contradicts what I've read. I'm still getting buzzed hard, but not in a good way. I have the strong urge to close my eyes, and my "perceived physical balance" is all over the place.
And the worst part is that I could still feel the withdrawal of the synthetics.
Thirty minutes later - I am feeling base-lined. I'm awfully confused, because the cannabis feels both extremely overpowering and underwhelming in the same moment.

Day 2:
I am feeling okay during the day. Eating is difficult, and my mood is a little low. I don't know what to report about the day - as withdrawal just seems to be making me irritable, nauseous, and my mood is a little funky.

Night 2:
Repeat of night one, but slightly better. I was really frustrated with the fact that I was getting ~20 minute unpleasant buzzes instead of the spice fix.

This goes on until night four. During "Day 4", my mood took a HUGE leap, and I felt fantastic.

Night 4:
Tonight is a good night. I carefully mix up a nice 50/50 blend of tobacco and cannabis and smoke it slowly. I decide to use the cannabinoids to "reset" myself - I smoke it so that I start to buzz and then immediately start engaging myself in music and discussion and other things. This works well. I enjoy the first two sittings, but my third sitting returns to the usual unpleasantness.

During this period of four days and nights, I noticed that Cannabis elicited a very negative symptom which was anxiety and tachycardia. I really can't offer any logical explanation for why I'm reacting like this to something that should be weaker in potency - much weaker.

Day 5:
I feel good. I ate lunch and kept it down with almost no uncomfortable sensations. My mood is a little low, but I find it easy to bring right back up. The best part - I no longer feel a desire to smoke synthetics. I "want to", and probably will try a small amount tonight. I am currently weighing my options of "smoking small amounts more moderately" versus "dropping the habit".

So, here I am. I feel pretty good and I don't have the urge to smoke anymore. All of the report above is recalled experience. The only useful thing I can sum up is that: Cannabis and Synthetic Cannabis are nothing alike. Not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denversolo View Post
I guess I'll throw everyone the curveball.
Lets say a Rhino has been smoking mostly just White Rhino blend for well over a year. Not in any moderation. The Rhino always was a stoner, but now works in a safety critical environment, and therefore must submit to random drug testing. The beast smokes enough to basically constantly maintain a buzz. About 45 grams every 2 weeks. Nonstop. Side effects? The shit plugs your pipe like a mother f$(*#$&. The latest "strain" (the Rhino doesn't know the specifics of the active ingredients) stinks like rotten fish. Yup. It smells like a dirty stripper pole. Positives? It costs less then pot. The Rhino can afford to maintain a buzz 24/7 as he pleases while with pot could barely smoke enough to keep his sanity. Basically the Rhino feels as though his brain at its natural pace is to fast to process, self medication slows the speed to what he is able to keep up with. Honestly I read all these experiences and think that you people are crazy, then I read another 20 and think, wow, maybe there is something strange about the Rhino. Don't get me wrong, there were a couple of "bad highs" where there was a new batch and the potency "kinda got ya by the boo boo" but shit, who hasn't had that time where you were at that place and they just kept passing it around, and it just kept coming. Big deal. This stuff must really be some wild shit. Maybe there really is something wrong with the Rhino that this is the proper medication for? I mean, the Rhino handles some crazy shit for at work, and the Rhino is the best at what he does. The best. But the Rhino is stoned the whole time. How is this put, the Rhino is the Anomaly?
You are consuming 45 grams of smokeshop blend every two weeks, which means that you are ingesting 3.21 grams per day. This is not unusual for heavy users of smokeshop blends. To give you a stark contrast, I smoke 250-350 milligrams per sitting, resulting in a ceiling limit of 750-1000 milligrams per day. These figures are used for blends. You are ingesting three times what I ingest on a daily basis - and that's fine, if you can handle it.

I would like to say that your post is a little suspect. You don't mirror the "short lasting highs" that almost all synthetic cannabinoid users report. You say that you are stoned the whole time - but these synthetics have a very hard and fast ceiling. If it were me, I wouldn't trust a blend that could keep me high all day, every day, at that dosage. (3g/day was the highest peak of my blend usage)

You probably don't experience the horror stories because you are using blends.

Ever since I ceased using pure AM-2201 halfway through my "250 day experience", I have not had any bad trips. Before starting anxiolytics, I had several occasions where either myself or a friend tripped way too hard. This usually results in the person on the floor after a certain point, and completely stunned. Vomiting almost always ensues, but no long term damage has been noticed.
At my worst - I eyeballed some 2201 and woke up on the floor covered in vomit... My full experience is somewhere in the 2201 experience thread, but I literally thought my consciousness had been torn from physical reality and placed in another dimension where I was forced to have every neuron in my head fire off, all the time, forever. It was that scariest thing that has ever happened in my life, and I have never felt a deeper fear - not even toward death.

(I want to comment that there appears to be a certain "dosage" where the user on AM-2201 completely trips out of their mind. I was never able to find this dosage or circumstance except on accident. When I tried to do this on purpose, I would hit "ceilings" on my high and that's usually when you stop yourself for the sake of harm reduction. Don't try to do this - I can not imagine that it is safe.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bufalantan
Have would you describe benzo and cannabinoids combos?
I already explained above that benzo-class drugs appear to remove the short term negative side effects of synthetic cannabinoids. These symptoms are Paranoia, Anxiety, and the weird habit of the cannabinoid state to induce occasional delusions (minor ones, like someone is outside my door, etc...).

If you want to know how benzodiazepine highs mix with synthetic cannabinoid highs then you should go dig up the thread on that subject which is in this forum section. I won't find it for you. The author of this thread gives the advice that individuals susceptible to addictive tendencies should avoid "Benzos and Spice". Benzos are addictive. Spice is addictive. Throw them together and you'll be in hell without dosage controls.

Unfortunately, benzos make me want to sleep hardcore once midnight rolls around - which ends up clashing a little with the high. Even though my conscience tells me not to - I will admit that benzos + spice is a great thing; for me, it feels very calming, introspective, and directive. I cannot stress this enough, so I will say it one last time: Benzos have put me in the hospital before at doses equivalent to 20mg diazepam or less, so - be careful.

Edited a few hours later:


A really cool cat just rolled in with a 1.5 gram bag of space cadet flight risk - my typical smoke.

I put a small, ~50mg pinch in a bowl with tobacco. I feel calm, peaceful, and interested. The high is very focused and clear with a medium visual buzz. I mentioned somewhere in here that I like to smoke once in the mid-day to "reset" myself. With the GAD and depression, the mid day smoke takes my mind back a step a step. This results in whatever subconscious nagging was bringing me down being eliminated and replaced by the present - listening to nice music on a nice day, after having a tasty lunch.

I am very glad to see that the tolerance curve dropped rapidly. I ingested such a small amount compared to what I normally intake, roughly 20-35% of the number of intakes on at least a third of what I usually smoke. I have re-affirmed my original opinion that I could use this moderately and enjoy the synthetics. I've never had trouble setting limits on the daily amount, so I'm pretty excited to see if I can keep tolerance this low - it would certainly save me money.

I don't believe I will be consuming cannabis again unless it is a special occasion. I don't know why the high from the weed is too overwhelming - but one could argue my body is just used to the synthetic cannabinoids, and their binding affinities and qualities.

Best of luck, folks - gonna go enjoy this cloud nine. Have a nice weekend.
That's it for my report, unless a new health issue arises.

Post Quality Evaluations:
really thorough update of thread, lots of information
Well written and informative, thank you for being so thorough!

Last edited by P1-O2; 18-05-2012 at 20:21.

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