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Opiate addiction Support for coping with Opiate addiction and Opiate addiction treatment.

 
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  #1  
Old 25-04-2012, 21:26
mickey_bee Gold member mickey_bee is offline
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Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Am pondering getting a naltrexone implant when I get off methadone, but am curious about one thing.

Say I get in a motorbike crash, for example, or any sort of acute pain-killing necessitating situation...........what happens then?

Obviously if it's more long-term, they can simply remove the implant and wait before administering opiates and fucking up my recovery,.........but for acute painkilling, opiates are pretty much all there is, so what do they do?
  #2  
Old 27-04-2012, 14:40
ex-junkie ex-junkie is nu online
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

I'm fairly certain that they would use local and general anaesthetics in that circumstance. You don't have to be knocked out to get analgesia from general anaesthetics; some are very effective at sub-anaesthetic doses.

Another alternative is ketamine. You don't *need* opiates to manage acute pain. What you do need is a medic alert bracelet on your wrist or a necklace pendant to warn medics that you are on naltrexone and require alternative pain relief.

Post Quality Evaluations:
Great post, great information
great point about needing a medic bracelet, which is a must in a situation like this

Last edited by ex-junkie; 27-04-2012 at 14:49.
  #3  
Old 27-04-2012, 17:26
brettjv brettjv is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

This is what I call a textbook case of your disease 'working an angle'

It's really one of the oldest angles in the book, so to speak ... it has a very slight twist on it when you add naltrexone to the situation, but the over-riding arc of the disease's 'argument' is the same.

My best advice is to focus on today, and trying to do the 'next right thing'. If you feel like you 'need' naltrexone for a bit at first, I say go for it, and trust that the medical professionals will do the right thing for you if/when the time comes.

I would definitely not rely on naltrexone as your 'program of recovery' though ...

Last edited by brettjv; 27-04-2012 at 17:32.
  #4  
Old 28-04-2012, 04:21
Black Transit Blues Black Transit Blues is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Go the with the implant man, I have seen a couple of miraculous turn arounds by hardcore stone cold junkies thanks to naltrexone implants, for hardcore cases anecdotal evidence tells me they are by far the course of treatment most likely to work.

The problem in Australia is that the 'addiction industry" is opposed to them so they are a fringe treatment not covered by our public health system, you have to go private which costs six to eight thousand dollars for the initial implant ( I am not sure what it costs for the replacement implants but I could find out) in the UK maybe the NHS will pay for them I have no idea.

The chances you are going to need opiate pain relief any time soon are way lower than the chances of busting so just go for it.AA/NA say "fake it until you make it" well by far the easiest way to do this seems to be with an implant.
  #5  
Old 28-04-2012, 05:20
ex-junkie ex-junkie is nu online
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post
Go the with the implant man, I have seen a couple of miraculous turn arounds by hardcore stone cold junkies thanks to naltrexone implants, for hardcore cases anecdotal evidence tells me they are by far the course of treatment most likely to work.
I am just curious to know what makes you think that naltrexone implants are the best course of treatment and why they're most likely to work. I understand that they may have contributed to the success of 'a couple' of 'hardcore stone junkies', however; how successful are they in general?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post

The problem in Australia is that the 'addiction industry" is opposed to them so they are a fringe treatment not covered by our public health system, you have to go private which costs six to eight thousand dollars for the initial implant ( I am not sure what it costs for the replacement implants but I could find out) in the UK maybe the NHS will pay for them I have no idea.
This is not the entire truth mate. Naltrexone implants are not approved for human use in Australia. They are however approved for use in research, so there is a loop hole in which they can be used. There is overwhelming evidence that suggests that they are unsafe, cause many adverse reactions, and have high incidence of overdose from tolerance reduction. There is no regulation at the moment, and therefore the people who insert them usually are getting exorbitant profits and are they not being inserted sterile conditions; which of course is necessary to prevent infection.

Have a read of this.

Last edited by ex-junkie; 28-04-2012 at 06:21.
  #6  
Old 28-04-2012, 06:56
Black Transit Blues Black Transit Blues is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

I can only comment from two people I know who went to Perth to get them.

Black Transit Blues added 19 Minutes and 42 Seconds later...

Sorry about that.
Both these people had really bad habits on and off (off being prison) for more than fifteen years.Both are still clean more than three years on, one has built a very succesful business as an electrician is paying off a house etc etc, something I could never have imagined.Without the implants both these people would probably be using, and neither has had any side effects whatsover, the other was the daughter of a gynaecologist and her mum paid for it, so her medical specalist mother can't have thought the risks were that high.

. As far the health risks go, what are the risks involved in continuing to use - show me a reference to one person who has died directly from a naltrexone implant.

Black Transit Blues added 8 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

Also as far as dodgy people making money remember ther are scores of people in the "addiction industry" with cushy public service jobs for life "working' around needle exchanges, detox centres etc, is it really in their interests for people to go down the implant route.

Last edited by Black Transit Blues; 28-04-2012 at 07:02. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #7  
Old 28-04-2012, 08:18
ex-junkie ex-junkie is nu online
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Ahh so they were put in by George O' Neil. Out of curiosity, did he put either of these people you know onto adderall or benzodiazepines? This man is making millions of dollars out of putting naltrexone implants in clients and replacing their addiction with benzodiazepines and/or adderall.

He makes the implants he uses by the way. Of course you will hear nothing but success stories when he speaks about his treatment programs. If you put naltrexone implants into google there are case studies that will come up on the first page. If you read the document I linked you to earlier, there is a fuckload of articles outlining the risks, dangers, and links to death.

Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post

Also as far as dodgy people making money remember ther are scores of people in the "addiction industry" with cushy public service jobs for life "working' around needle exchanges, detox centres etc, is it really in their interests for people to go down the implant route.
I'm not sure what you deem to be "cushy", but you're speaking of people in community services work roles who get paid award wages. It's about the same for disability support and aged care coordinators. Furthermore, it's nowhere near cushy. Did you realise that nurses who work in mental health and addiction treatment do not get paid as much as regular nurses? They're taking a pay cut out of empathy for a heartbreakingly revolving door industry. Opiates are not the only drug of addiction, so I'm unsure why you've hinted that they wouldn't want people to go down the implant route.

Do you honestly think that anybody genuinely wants to keep people addicted to opiates?

Last edited by ex-junkie; 28-04-2012 at 08:33.
  #8  
Old 28-04-2012, 11:56
Black Transit Blues Black Transit Blues is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Having once worked as a maintence worker in a large private nursing home if you are seriously suggesting that working in detox in the public health system is anything like as taxing as working as a nurse or AIN in a a private aged care facility you should start asking around.The aim of almost every body who works in these places is to get into the public system.

No consciously nobody wants people to stay addicted to opiates but people are by nature wary of anything that might threaten their livelyhood.The idea that everone who works in the public detox system is there out of altruism is pretty naive.

Also remember for every hands on worker you have someone who has a job shuffling paper, doing the accounts, "doing administrative things" etc etc.

Black Transit Blues added 11 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

Oh and also I have just checked, in Queensland Health a registered nurse working in Pychiatric care earns the same salary as an RN working anywhere else in the system.

Black Transit Blues added 27 Minutes and 8 Seconds later...

Now to the more important part of your last post, I am not so silly as to believe that everyone who has an implant is going to stay clean long term and of course the people who do them are going to exaggerate the success rate.

Also all surgical procedures involve risks, it really is a question of risk assesment.If someone has tried everything to stay away from opiates but know deep down they can't, and the only thing that might work is a medication that blocks the high, and tablets are a waste of time because you know you just will stop taking them, what to do?

Take the risk and go down the implant route, or take the risks and keep using.If everything else has been tried and failed and deep down you know that getting high is just such a strong urge that you will not be able to resist regardless of how many NA meetings you rock up to, once again what to do?

As I said before I know two people who have had implants and both have remained clean and in this game as you would know a random sample of two out of two ain't bad.

Black Transit Blues added 70 Minutes and 39 Seconds later...

And one last thing if someone is addicted to benzo's or stimulants (I will enquire) but they have turned their life around from being a busted arse small time crim to running a succesful business as a sparky and buying a house well who gives a fuck - that is surely a small price to pay.

Last edited by Black Transit Blues; 28-04-2012 at 12:13. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #9  
Old 28-04-2012, 14:40
ex-junkie ex-junkie is nu online
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post
Having once worked as a maintence worker in a large private nursing home if you are seriously suggesting that working in detox in the public health system is anything like as taxing as working as a nurse or AIN in a a private aged care facility you should start asking around.The aim of almost every body who works in these places is to get into the public system.
"Disability support and aged care coordinators" are service coordinators not AINs or nurses. Generally at non-government organisations. I know what AINs do, because I am one. Furthermore I am a second year nursing student and I highly doubt my lecturers are talking up a shit storm about mental health nurses advocating for pay parity during tutorials. For example, a nurse will get paid more to work in the emergency department than in a psychiatric setting. The government doesn't allocate more funds for workers in these areas because if you really want to get to the nitty, gritty; the government does not consider mental health or addiction treatment to be as important as mainstream health care - be it public or private. This is clear as day when you look at the statistics of hospitalisations for mental health conditions, as compared to the amount of funding they get to treat these health issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post
No consciously nobody wants people to stay addicted to opiates but people are by nature wary of anything that might threaten their livelyhood.The idea that everone who works in the public detox system is there out of altruism is pretty naive.

Also remember for every hands on worker you have someone who has a job shuffling paper, doing the accounts, "doing administrative things" etc etc.
I still have issues with your outlook on addiction treatment workers. Addicts are some of the most difficult people to work with and if anything; workers usually attempt to find work elsewhere because the working conditions are highly stressful and people in withdrawal are agonising to care for. As for shuffling paper.. every little financial detail is audited, so even if there was one crooked worker, that person would come undone eventually and be exposed.

The public system do not have any conflict of interest or anything to gain out of providing detox and/or mental health facilities to addicts. It costs a fucking fortune to the health care system and economy, so there is nothing to be gained. Unless you're putting in dirty implants in a non-sterile environment, and then laying people down in rows on the floor to recover. You'd think that a person who was making $8,000 per implant would treat their patients with more respect, then to let them wake up on the fucking floor after an invasive procedure.

I do not know one single person who has received an implant and remained clean. Furthermore, I am suspicious of George O' Neil because I have listened to the stories from families affected by addiction and listened to many people recall dodgy shit. People need to be aware of this shit before they go ahead with treatment, so they can make informed decisions. Not decisions that have an underlying tone of deception or bullshit attached to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post

As you would know a random sample of two out of two ain't bad.
Epidemiology and social science disagree. Two samples is not an accurate representation for any kind of meaningful group analysis.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate really, I am just trying to inject some truth into a topic that appears to be sorely misunderstood by addicts and poorly represented in the media.

Last edited by ex-junkie; 28-04-2012 at 14:46.
  #10  
Old 28-04-2012, 16:30
Black Transit Blues Black Transit Blues is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

I have no issue with addiction treatment workers (I have been in HADS at the RBH myself, they were fine ) all I am saying is that many people are employed in what is an industry managing addictions, the fact that taxpayers fund most of it (whether they like it or not) doesn't mean the people who are employed in it don't make money out of it, of course they do it's called their salary.

By paper shufflers I am not suggesting dishonesty I simply mean the vast beauracracy that lurks behind our health system in all areas including addiction treatment.

Yes it is a revolving door and perhaps that is partly because the treatments they offer are not much good.Just as a lot of Psychiatrists and Psychologists bag AA/NA because it bruises their ego to think people can get clean without them,I believe there is strong opposition to implants because the whole addiction industry is built around ORT.

Of course a sample of two is nonsence in statistical terms I am not that fuckin stupid, but what is the success rate for conventional detoxes, what is the success rate for ORT,as against implants, are there any reliable figures for any of them.

The O'neil's of this world only exist because people who have tried and failed everywhere else are forced there because medicare will not fund implants.Yes there may be risks with implants but how many junkies die every year trying to shoot over the top of their done, or have dirty shots injecting subbies that have been in their mouths, or develop blood clots injecting their ORT.

I understand your concern and I agree that it really is last resort shit but when all else has failed I believe the public health system should give people this option.
  #11  
Old 28-04-2012, 21:02
kailey_elise Gold member kailey_elise is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

What if I get in an accident and need opiate pain relievers while taking naltrexone?

Many people carry a medical alert card with them at all times, stating that they are on naltrexone, because in case of an accident, it will take higher doses of opiate pain relievers to reduce their pain. It is possible to override the effects of naltrexone with higher dosages of opiates or to be prescribed a comparable medication that is not an opiate.

Now, this is for discussion of the oral formulation, I believe. I would also think the implant form would be better in this instance because it could be removed, unlike a depot injection (Vivitrol, for example). However, they're not sure how long it takes for naltrexone to get out of your system once an implant is removed, either.

As e-j said, sub-anesthetic doses of general anesthesia are used, as are local anesthesia injections. Ketamine is an option (falls under the 'anesthetic' umbrella), as are muscle relaxants and/or benzodiazepines. Additionally, there are many non-opioid drugs that can reduce pain.

It's not something you really need to be concerned about; if the situation were to ever come up, they would find things to treat any acute pain.

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  #12  
Old 29-04-2012, 02:33
ex-junkie ex-junkie is nu online
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Transit Blues View Post

What is the success rate for conventional detoxes, what is the success rate for ORT,as against implants, are there any reliable figures for any of them.
Naltrexone implants have been used in Australian "research" for around twelve years now. There have been no worthwhile studies to prove/disprove their efficacy that might lead to the eventual approval for human use. This is just an overall reflection on how the government and health care system prioritise addiction treatment; addicts never appear to be worthy consumers of health care. I do agree that it would be better for them to be subsidised and inserted under the public health system.

The bottom line is that pharmacological interventions will never be the solution to opiate addiction. Addiction is a disorder of physiological, psychological, and sociological nature. If an addict is strong enough to overcome the sociological and psychological aspects on their own; then the pharmacological therapies will most definitely work. Unfortunately many addicts are in need of psychotherapy because of comorbid mental health disorders, and need to relearn the most basic of life skills; activities of living, finances, and how to interact with people 'normally' <--- the term normal is always open to interpretation because cultural norms differ world-wide.

If addicts don't have access to social workers, community services organisations, mental health services and peer support, and psychology services (psychology before psychiatry as a rule), then this will lead to the revolving door scenarios that we currently experience. Failure to address social and psychological issues results in releasing people back to exactly the same living conditions/issues that lead them to addiction.

On a final note, addicts need more education in order for them to take more responsibility for the problems associated with addiction. Being more proactive about recovery is going to reap much more success than allowing society to make them feel disillusioned, powerless, and worthless. Motivated people get results. There is a need to work your own way back up from the bottom, and this is going to take effort. There is no magic wand solution.

Talk about off-topic. I guess I'm just passionate about the subject. You won't ever find me pushing paper and bludging in future employment roles.

Last edited by ex-junkie; 29-04-2012 at 02:43.
  #13  
Old 29-04-2012, 22:34
mickey_bee Gold member mickey_bee is offline
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Re: Naltrexone Implant + painkilling query.

Thanks for everyone's response. I just got a little concerned because I think I'm going to replace heroin with motorbikes, which means I'm definitely going to fall off and need some bad ass painkillers at some point, lol.

To be honest, I'm at a point where I'd more be using the implant as a means to reassure a certain family member................though to be honest, I'm not sure why I keep trying where that's concerned. Particularly as it's only available privately.

But yeah, looking into it, and it's just another little safety net to prevent slip-ups which can be devastating,.........so we'll see.

Glad to see you're still around ex-junkie, I never thought I too would be an ex-junkie when previously speaking to you, lol. You'll be pleased to know I recently waved off two of my friends to Perth. And I'm thinking I might hop over for a year next summer. Totally off-topic I know, but, who cares?

mickey_bee added 20 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
I would definitely not rely on naltrexone as your 'program of recovery' though ...
I hear ya totally my friend, but fear not, I'm looking into this without any pressures from anyone else, no one's even suggested it to me.

I'm more looking into it as another little safety net.........as I feel completely fine now, over a year since I last used. I've 'moved from the darkness into the light', and 'faced my demons' lol. Only concern is if, for example, I get heartbroken, because I'm a total pussy when it comes to that, and I'd very possibly end up back on skag.......heartbreak's a massive factor with men particularly when it comes to relapsing, so yeah, not that that's in the pipeline, but I'm trying to cover my bases.

I was only a proper addict for 5 years, but felt like I've missed out on such a lot, and such a large part of life,.........I don't want to let anything hold me back more.

Cheers for your concern though man, I take your point.

Last edited by mickey_bee; 29-04-2012 at 22:36. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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