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Nightshades Atropine plants like Datura(Angel trumpet), Mandrake & Bella Donna

 
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  #1  
Old 23-01-2011, 03:54
69Ron 69Ron is offline
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Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Datura stramonium and datura inoxia are safe to use in very small amounts, 10 seeds or less. This is of course normally a non-psychoactive dosage range, only useful for blocking nausea, or potentiating the effects of other psychedelics (such as mescaline).

Recent tests being done on another forum I frequent have shown that by taking 5-10 grams of cold water extracted cramp bark with Datura stramonium or datura inoxia some people are able to experience the visual element of the psychoactive effects of these plants at doses as small as 10 seeds.

What’s more interesting to me is that the visual effects are present without the delirium that normally accompanies them.

Cramp bark contains a compound called scopoletin, which is proven in animal tests to counteract most of the negative mental effects of the scopolamine, the main psychoactive in Datura inoxia. It apparently blocks the short term memory loss produced by high doses of scopolamine.

I don’t know if scopoletin is the key ingredient in cramp bark that allows you to reach visual effects from Datura at much lower, safer doses, without the delirium. I may not be. Apparently boiling the cramp bark makes it ineffective for this purpose.

I know Datura are not looked at in a good light, especially hallucinogenic doses, primarily because of the delirium they cause, but by using cramp bark with Datura, the delirium seems to be absent from the visiual effects.

I know of several people who’ve tried this combination. A few experienced no effects (weak seeds or weak cramp bark is probably the issue) and a few experienced very strong dream-like visual effects from 10 seeds, like those of typical but weak Datura visions present at doses of 100 seeds or more, but they totally lacked the mental confusion.

Has anyone on this forum experimented with this combination before?

NOTE: This is a relatively new topic to me and it could potentially be dangerous to use this combination. I have not heard of this combination before so be careful, approach this with extreme caution, at very low doses only, and have a sitter present just in case this doesn’t go right.

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For all of your valuable contributions. This could have some interesting implications. Thank you for sharing.

Last edited by 69Ron; 23-01-2011 at 04:03.
  #2  
Old 24-01-2011, 17:39
phenythylamine phenythylamine is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Damn well, it wont let me rep you so I guess im just going to have to give you a verbal good job on this one.

as Ive said before, this is interesting information. may even lead to a way to make datura consumption more pleasant, and potentially less dangerous (although we dont really know much about this combination yet.)
  #3  
Old 24-01-2011, 18:36
69Ron 69Ron is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Well brunfelsia, brugmansia, and caapi is an ayahuasca mix that is similar which has been used by shamans in the past. Brunfelsia is very similar to cramp bark (both contain scopoletin as the main active) and Brugmansia is similar to Datura (both contain tropane alkaloids as their main actives). But this form of ayahuasca is apparently very rare. I don’t know the safety of this kind of ayahuasca. It’s been replaced by DMT-containing ayahuasca in most parts of South America. There must be a reason for it.

Of course the combination above is using cramp bark and Datura stramonium. That exact mix is not a traditional mix as far as I know. Either way, use caution trying it. So far the few people that have tried it did not experience any negative effects at low doses. But that says little about its potential dangers at higher doses.
  #4  
Old 01-02-2011, 19:38
romanesco romanesco is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

That's interesting for those who ventured in low doses tropanes.
Never heard of cramp bark before though, how is it on its own ?
like passiflora ?
  #5  
Old 02-02-2011, 19:27
69Ron 69Ron is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Cramp bark is very pleasant on its own, producing tingling sensations and mild euphoria. It's reminiscent of passionflower, but passionflower is more sedating, more mentally dulling. Both contain scopoletin, but cramp bark and brunfeslia contain much more than passionflower usually contains.

AFOAF has gotten similar effects from mixing certain batches of passionflower with Datura. But most passionflower doesn’t work well for this. I assume its because of the poor scopoletin content in most passionflower. The leaf of passionflower seems to be higher in scopoletin than the rest of the plant. He’s had the best luck using passionflower leaves, but most herb stores carry passionflower that’s mostly twigs which seem to be low in scopoletin. I wish more stores sold the leaf only.

Cramp bark is much better for this than passionflower. It is consistently potent in scopoletin, while passionflower is sometimes so weak it does nothing at all.
  #6  
Old 10-02-2011, 02:54
ElusiveMind ElusiveMind is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Interesting find 69Ron

SWIM's main concern though is not about the delirium associated with the datura trip, but by how CLOSE SWIY is to death to achieve that delirium.

What SWIM is asking is while SWIY may get better visuals and no delirium with cramp bark, are AFOAF's vital signs still in the dangerous zone (like a standard trip) or does that not occur?
  #7  
Old 10-02-2011, 07:18
69Ron 69Ron is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

There's no effect on the body at the doses used other than the slight drying effect of the tropane alkaloids. The dose of Datura used is about 1/50th the dose used normally for hallucination.

The crampbark contains mostly scopoletin, and the datura contains scopolamine and hyoscyamine. Scopoletin is an antidote for scopolamine in many ways, except for the visual effects of scopolamine. Scopoletin is cholingergic while scopolamine is anti-cholinergic. They pretty much cancel out each others dangerous side effects while at the same time boost each others visual effects.

The visual effects of scopoletin are extremely mild on their own, and only really become apparent at very large near fatal doses. For scopolamine, the visual effects are much stronger, but also tend not to be apparent until pretty dangerous doses are used. But when the two are combined they somehow amplify each other’s visual effects, while canceling out the other effects. This is my theory anyway.

Scopoletin has been proven to block the short term memory loss effects of scopolamine. This means that you can trip without forgetting that you are tripping. This is one of the biggest problems with a scopolamine trip. Once the visuals start, your memory is seriously impared. By using scopoletin with it, you can lower the dosage needed for visuals by about 50 times, and the scopoletin also prevents the memory loss effect caused by scopolamine.

It’s a pretty nifty combo. AFOAF likes this, and is not afraid of this combo at the doses used. He would NEVER use a hallucinogenic dose of scopolamine on its own however, because the dose needed is about 50 times as much, plus the short term memory loss and delirium is a serious drawback for AFOAF.

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please back your claims up. interesting, if elaborated further.

Last edited by 69Ron; 10-02-2011 at 07:24.
  #8  
Old 19-02-2011, 21:04
ElusiveMind ElusiveMind is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

So SWIM is back with another question/concern....

SWIM found said thread that SWIY talked about in the OP and read the research so far. Now the dosage in said thread seemed to work well with the lab rats that tried it, which helps narrow down a safe testing dose since SWIY is notoriously sensitive to psychedelics.

Anyways, SWIM is well aware of Datura's long duration lasting anywhere from 8 - 48+ hours on higher and dangerous doses. From what SWIM can find on the duration of cramp bark or scopoletin, a "recommended" dose for a standard use of cramp bark is 3 times a day with a few grams or more for dosage depending on the severity of the female cramps

(Now note SWIM is thinking in both higher doses than SWIY stated in the OP and that the plateaus and/or duration of said materials do not match well)

That being said and seeing that cramp bark and datura both potentate AND cancel out each other's more harmful effects while combined....
What if though datura's duration lasts longer (since duration is dependent on dosage with datura alone) than cramp barks effects.... would AFOAF slowly return into a delirious and unintentional trip of just datura effects??

Example for SWIMMER's who don't understand:
Take the classic Jager Bomb drink . Alcohol is CNS depressant while Caffeine is CNS stimulant (from SWIM's knowledge). Caffeines platue and duration lasts longer than alcohol so if AFOAF had lots of Jager Bombs then stopped suddenly, later on they would have a huge caffeine rush but little or no intoxication. On the other hand, if AFOAF has a few Jager Bombs and but continues to drink more alcohol, they could become dangerously intoxicated without realizing it. Both states (in SWIM's opinion) aren't that desirable and could be potentially dangerous but the initial combination was the goal

Hope that helps state SWIM's concern, since SWIM doesn't want another SWIMMER to accidentally find this out the hard way

Pce
ElusiveMind
  #9  
Old 19-02-2011, 21:37
md2020 md2020 is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Well, this is interesting...

It would also make sense if this combination is effective and researched then one could just as easy create a combination that would offer a safe production of these compounds.. Heck, it would be just as easy to manipulate biologicals to product (i.e various strains of yeast hybrid off the engymnes)

Taming the negative effects of high doses of scopolamine may lead to being able to simply use its precursor, hyoscyamine, heck why not anisodamine.

Would be simple enough to train your Yeast friends to create tagged enzymes that will be able to transform hyoscyamine into 6β-hydroxyhyoscyamine while having some others trained to transformed hyoscyamine into scopolamine and 6β-hydroxyhyoscyamine,

Egot that Idea.....

hmm.. nice thoughts... reminds me of the process of homeopathy

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Interesting post!
  #10  
Old 20-02-2011, 01:12
69Ron 69Ron is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

ElusiveMind, that is such a good point. High doses of datura last a long time, while cramp bark doesn't. But at the doses used for AFOAF above, the amount of datura used is not enough to cause an extended duration of effects. The extended duration occurs at much higher doses. With doses of say 10 D. stramonium seeds, the main effects from the seeds last about 4-6 hours max. But at normal deliriant doses of hundreds of seeds, yes, effects will last well over a day.

The whole point in this mix though is to use lower non-delirient doses of Datara which have a very short duration of effects.

The extended duration of Datura at high doses is caused by slowing of the digestive system, and is NOT healthy. One should avoid such high doses of Datura. I'm not sure if scopoletin will counteract Datura's effects of the stomach, I think not.
  #11  
Old 01-11-2011, 03:08
nork nork is offline
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

This sounds like an interesting combination, would the experience be pleasant/euphoric? its hard not to feel scared of datura with all of the stuff you hear about it on the internet, but then this is all usually with the larger doses as has been mentioned. Also how consistent or varying is the scopolamine of datura seeds? is it more consistent than the actual plant? because I have heard that it can vary a lot even with different parts of the same plant
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:25
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Re: Activating lower safer doses of datura using cramp bark

Borris the badger has been trying out this combination a couple of times in the past week, the first time he took about 10 - 15g cramp bark and 7 seeds, and re-dosed the same a few hours later, it was a nice relaxing high and after the second dose it surprised him how strong it got and he got anxious because he didn't know how far it would go, but he managed to calm himself knowing he hadn't taken enough seeds to cause delirium, it felt very weed like

He has tried it 2 more times since then and keeping the dose at about 7 or 8 seeds and it gives a nice relaxing euphoria that lasts for a few hours, not sure exactly how many because he forgot to time it

Borris is keen to keep experimenting with this and is wondering what the difference would be in increasing the cramp bark, increasing the seeds and increasing both

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Tags
alcohol, atropine, ayahuasca, datura, datura dangers, datura inoxia, datura stramonium, delerium, delirium, hallucinogen, hyoscyamine, hypnotic, memory loss, nightshade, nightshades, scopolamine, short term memory loss, solanaceae, tropane, visual effects

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