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  #26  
Old 13-03-2012, 14:54
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Question on doing a CWE for the next day. After you do the CWE should you leave it in the freezer or the freg over night? And does the potency go down at all?
  #27  
Old 13-03-2012, 16:38
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

AFOAF has only prepped the night before a few times and I'm sure someone else can chime in, but as far as I know there should be no concern in losing potency overnight and no need to keep it in the refrigerator. In fact, I believe I've read (I can't remember where- I'll try to hunt it down) that extracted oxycodone is slightly sensitive to light so it might be better to not keep it in the fridge for too long and rather keep it in a cool, dark place. But, as I don't do this often, I can't tell you for 100% certain, though again, it's not rocket science. You'd have to do a lot to really strip the potency of the pills... a lot more than just sticking them in the fridge.
  #28  
Old 13-03-2012, 16:46
Marvolo Marvolo is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Freezer would just freeze the water. Use a fridge. Giving up flogging a dead horse on the paracetamol, but this does sum up my CWE point. Would you feel safe taking his CWE prepared codeine? And he'll be taking it regularly, assuming it contains negligible paracetamol. Speaks for itself.
  #29  
Old 13-03-2012, 18:03
catseye Gold member catseye is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Would you feel safe taking his CWE prepared codeine? And he'll be taking it regularly, assuming it contains negligible paracetamol. Speaks for itself.
Honestly, I'd feel safer taking his CWE than I would following your "advice" that 5.5g of APAP isn't harmful and just chucking the pills down my neck

In the name of harm reduction, even if the CWE does not extract all available APAP it will reduce it significantly...as least more than just flippantly ingesting APAP.

As you seem to be of the opinion that instructing people to CWE causes more harm than good, what exactly would you advise then? Because we all know here that telling somebody 'don't do it, mmkkay' isn't going to work.

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I'd feel safer taking the OP's CWE than 5.5gs of APAP, too....
  #30  
Old 13-03-2012, 21:33
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Would you feel safe taking his CWE prepared codeine? And he'll be taking it regularly, assuming it contains negligible paracetamol. Speaks for itself.
I, myself, would feel safe taking just about anyone's CWE who is a member of this forum based on the plethora of information contained here on how to do so correctly. Even though it's not too complicated, there are still countless step-by-step guides in the Extraction Forums that most chimpanzees could understand. You make it sound like the most complex and time-consuming process in the world, when in reality all it boils down to is pills + water + cold - APAP = less chance your liver will crap out. Seems like a pretty solid equation to me; it's just basic math.

For all who are interested, do not know, or need a refresher or some tips, here are those most excellent guides: Cold Water Extraction of Codeine and Cold Water Extraction FAQs- Lists, Links, & Manuals
  #31  
Old 14-03-2012, 01:11
Marvolo Marvolo is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

My point isn't that CWE won't lower the amount of paracetamol - it will. My point is that a poorly performed CWE won't remove enough paracetamol while the user will assume it has become safe. I would rather know I've taken a mild overdose and avoid doing so again than repeatedly taking paracetamol from a poorly performed CWE and assume I'm fine.

While it's not difficult for those with the ability, patience and knowledge to perform there are still a lot of intelligent people unable to perform a CWE properly. A biochemist friend of mine, doing a project on DNA manipulation no less, understood CWE to be dissolving effervescent tablets in water pouring it off and leaving what looked to be about 2-3g of the 8g used behind. Had he followed the advice given here rather than coming to me he would have felt safe regularly taking 5-6g paracetamol at once.

My point is talented people simply reading a few guides on CWE can and will make mistakes. I'd rather not give them the allusion that they're not overdosing at all. And with an OP unsure if he should be using cold ice extraction, letting him think there'll be zero paracetamol in his (apparently regular) codeine tripping is far more dangerous than you allude.
  #32  
Old 14-03-2012, 02:35
trdofbeingtrd trdofbeingtrd is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

If someone can post the link I would appreciate it. There is a certain amount of APAP taken from a well performed CWE, and on the second filtering, it is a higher percentage. It is hard for me to understand why anyone would say that even doing a crude CWE done poorly is not better than just downing the pills as is.
  #33  
Old 14-03-2012, 02:50
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
My point is talented people simply reading a few guides on CWE can and will make mistakes. I'd rather not give them the allusion that they're not overdosing at all. And with an OP unsure if he should be using cold ice extraction, letting him think there'll be zero paracetamol in his (apparently regular) codeine tripping is far more dangerous than you allude.
If you would take 30 seconds to look at the CWE links I provided, you would see that they truly cover all the bases, including the types of filter to use, the amount of time to cool, what the solution should look like, and the fact that performing a CWE does not guarantee 0mg of APAP... not to mention a whole lot more. They are all but fool-proof if one reads through them in their entirety, and also list the "Do's" and "Don't's" and all of the requisite safety disclaimers. And while we're concerned about your health and you taking intentional overdoses, what you do with your body is your right. The problem here is making it seem like the right choice or even a choice worth considering at all for other members who might heed your words.

In addition, if your friend found that method on this site, it would be helpful for you to provide a link. You have experienced first hand how many of us feel about the senseless taking of unnecessary APAP and obviously the method you described does not work. I imagine many other members would have picked up on that. If that thread still exists, it would be nice to see it.

And trd, I couldn't find the percentages anywhere, but I did find in the CWE FAQs a quote accompanying one of the many pictures of possible final product that said, "Here somebody boiled his product down and his conclusion was that you will always have a certain amount of PCM/etc. in your Result, but usually not much, around 100-500mg, nothing to worry about." Sounds preferable to 5.5gs, to me.
  #34  
Old 14-03-2012, 03:52
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Swims fish said fishy took 20 10/500s yesterday. I told fish to go to the ER.. Turns out that fish did not go and a few days back that same fish took 20 5/500s. Swims advised fish about CWE and swim would show fish how to do it. So hopefully fish quits being a fukin moron cause that fish is doin major damage to the liver....Swim dont know what else he can tell that fish
  #35  
Old 14-03-2012, 04:02
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

All I can tell you is while we've been bickering about 5.5g of APAP, there is absolutely no question that 10,000mg in a day is enough to cause acute liver failure in most people. If that fish took 10,000mg yesterday, fish is in serious danger and MUST seek medical attention. This is not to say that fish's liver will absolutely fail because of that dose, but that is really and truly not messing around. I don't know what else you could tell fish either, but I will tell you whatever you do you need to try to convince fish to see a doctor or at the very least call poison control so they can advise fish to see a doctor. Really, not a joke. What fish decides to do is fish's own decision, but from what I know they are in real peril and not yet inside the timeframe of the most noticeable symptoms such as jaundice, etc. For a poison emergency in the US call 1-800-222-1222.
  #36  
Old 14-03-2012, 04:06
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Ya 10 grams is def Liver toxcitiy...and plus 10 grams twice...fukin stupied

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True, but wording is important here, close to flaming, 10grams twice is extermely ignorant.
  #37  
Old 14-03-2012, 04:17
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

If you care to, I would perhaps try calling Poison Control yourself and relaying whatever advice they give you to said fish. But they will tell you to tell fish to go to the hospital. I'm sorry they don't believe what you're telling them, but maybe fish would listen to an entity such as Poison Control over what to do in this type of situation.
  #38  
Old 14-03-2012, 15:12
Marvolo Marvolo is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Yeah, your little fishy needs to swim on down to the hospital. The first 10g overdose may not have killed him, sure, but it did damage his liver. The second 10g overdose hit an already damaged liver. Without critical damage to his liver he wouldn't notice any symptoms, thus he likely thinks its safe to do. There's little he can do himself to assess and protect his liver. Head to hospital, get a liver function test, if he's in a critical state he'll get the treatment he needs, if he's not he'll be able to see the level of damage he's done to his liver (and proof its not safe). If he's worried about being labelled a drug user he can pretend it was paracetamol only rather than the opioids though hospitals tend to be poor at communicating things like that.

As for the CWE, yes our friendly goldfish will benefit for it, but the general advice of "everyone just do CWE and be fine" is still something I dislike. Said friend was one from real life, showed me the website and said he'd read it here. Sure the guides may be helpful but assuming everyone reads, understands and properly follows the advice given there is the mistake. As OP has shown with the freezer comment, a lot of people will not. And with the number of people using CWE even with the majority doing it correctly there are sure to be a lot doing it wrong. Three separate real life friends not registered members of this website have come to me with wrong methods. Had I not been there, thats three people who you will never even know exist overdosing on paracetamol yet finding it safe. And of these three two had zero history of prior drug use, one smoked marijuana bi-yearly or less and all were lab competent.
  #39  
Old 15-03-2012, 17:53
DiabolicScheme DiabolicScheme is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by eklypised View Post
Swims fish said fishy took 20 10/500s yesterday. I told fish to go to the ER.. Turns out that fish did not go and a few days back that same fish took 20 5/500s. Swims advised fish about CWE and swim would show fish how to do it. So hopefully fish quits being a fukin moron cause that fish is doin major damage to the liver....Swim dont know what else he can tell that fish
Maybe I'm confused but most people suggested that 5.5 grams is too much so this fish goes
and takes 10 grams then another 10 grams shortly there after
I guess you've taken the advice as this forum as a joke, KNOCK THAT SHIT off, unless your fish is intentionally looking for a long painful death. The liver isn't invincible despite being able to regenerate there comes a point where the damage is too excessive to recover.
  #40  
Old 15-03-2012, 19:40
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

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Originally Posted by DiabolicScheme View Post
Maybe I'm confused but most people suggested that 5.5 grams is too much so this fish goes
and takes 10 grams then another 10 grams shortly there after
I guess you've taken the advice as this forum as a joke, KNOCK THAT SHIT off, unless your fish is intentionally looking for a long painful death. The liver isn't invincible despite being able to regenerate there comes a point where the damage is too excessive to recover.
It wasnt this swim......swims fish

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there is no self incrimination rule. Please speak in a straight forward manner so this confusion does not come up again
  #41  
Old 16-03-2012, 09:25
al-k-mist al-k-mist is nu online
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Having been an opiate addict in a past life, AFOAF has taken 6g of APAP, 2 days in a row, before kicking the habit(And he wishes he woulda known about CWE)
He was an opiate tolerant patient at the time. So negative effects are not attributable to opiate nausea in newbies. But he doesnt know if it was APAP or not that did it
Severe nausea/vomiting. Like, for hours. Like, drink 3 oz water, get sick, drink 8 oz water, projectile vomiting. feel a bit better, then CHILLS then SOOO hot,; Tired, sick sweating cold hot..... but like 6 hrs of vomiting, only releived by cannabis, then temporarily
He has OD'ed twice. been cut with a razor, broken bones, and is a chrinic pain patient; and he was getting ready to go to ER

Ganked from emedicine:
Because acetaminophen (APAP) is the most widely used pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic agent in the United States and the world (contained in >100 products), it is reported by the American Association of Poison Control Centers to be one of the most common pharmaceuticals associated with both intentional and unintentional poisoning and toxicity. Acetaminophen toxicity is the most common cause of hepatic failure requiring liver transplantation in Great Britain. In the United States, APAP toxicity has replaced viral hepatitis as the most common cause of acute hepatic failure and is the second most common cause of liver failure requiring transplantation.

Acetaminophen is also known as paracetamol and N -acetyl-p-aminophenol (APAP). This agent is available in the United States as 325-mg and 500-mg immediate-release (IR) tablets, and as a 650-mg extended-release (ER) preparation marketed for the treatment of arthritis. Various children's dissolvable, chewable, suspension, and elixir formulations of APAP are available. Acetaminophen is a component of many over-the-counter (OTC) cold and analgesic medications and prescription combinations, including codeine-acetaminophen (Tylenol #3) and oxycodone-acetaminophen (Percocet).

In an attempt to decrease the risks of potential APAP toxicity in the United States, a number of pharmaceutical regulatory changes have been introduced. In 2009, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) required that nonprescription and prescription APAP-containing medications provide information regarding the risks of APAP-induced hepatotoxicity.[1, 2] The FDA is considering the removal of APAP from some popular analgesic combination products (Vicodin) and possibly decreasing the recommended maximum daily dose. The FDA is also considering other changes to APAP-related recommendations, including the following:

Gastrointestinal Symptoms
Acetaminophen toxicity occurs in stages, with stage 1 occurring within 24 hours of overdose, according to the Merck Manual. Stage I symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and loss of appetite. In stage II, 24 to 72 hours after overdose, upper right quadrant pain follows. Gastrointestinal bleeding may occur in later stages from interference with the blood's ability to clot. The liver may be enlarged and tender to the touch.

Liver Symptoms
Acetaminophen overdose is the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States, OSU reports, causing around 39 percent of all cases. One out of four people with an overdose progressed to liver failure that required liver transplant, and 70 percent were still alive three weeks after overdose. Symptoms of severe liver damage appear 72 to 96 hours after ingestion in stage III of the disease, the Merck Manual states. Liver symptoms include elevated liver enzymes and bilirubin as well as coagulation problems noted in blood tests. Jaundice, a yellow tinge to the whites of the eyes and skin is caused by the accumulation of bilirubin. Confusion, called hepatic encephalopathy, occurs because the liver can't remove toxins from the blood.

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Good information on the warning signs.
post is packed with useful information
  #42  
Old 16-03-2012, 11:36
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by eklypised View Post
Swims fish said fishy took 20 10/500s yesterday. I told fish to go to the ER.. Turns out that fish did not go and a few days back that same fish took 20 5/500s. Swims advised fish about CWE and swim would show fish how to do it. So hopefully fish quits being a fukin moron cause that fish is doin major damage to the liver....Swim dont know what else he can tell that fish

Seriously?

Okay, now clarify this for me please. You dont need to worry about self incrimination when you're talking about personal use. You're starting to confuse me here with all this "swim" and "swim's fish" stuff so let just stick with *YOU*. So, to clarify, *YOU* started this thread asking if the 5.5 grams of APAP *YOU* ingested in less than 24hrs could be toxic and/or damaging.

Everyone gives you all this great advice and information and 2 or 3 members actually start "bickering" or "debating" how potential damaging this 5.5 grams may or may not be. Then *YOU* proceed to ingest 10 grams 2 days after that? *YOU* seriously ingested 10 grams after everyone here gave you all this great information and advice about how hepa-toxic and potentially dangerous and FATAL an APAP overdose is; So *YOU* go and knowingly and purposely ingest 10 grams?!

I have never in my life heard someone do something so completely reckless and have a blatant disregard for their own health, well-being, body, and life. If you have any respect for yourself and any desire to live, take your ass to the hospital now. You could die. Liver damage doesnt have to happen instantly, meaning it could take days. Since you have taken 15 grams in the span of 3-4 days- I would say that this is an emergency situation, you need to go to the hospital right now!

GO NOW!

You are 28 fucking years old, if you want to make it to 30, take some responsibility for yourself and your drug use. If you have any desire to live...go to the hospital right now!

Oh yes, normally I would think it would go without saying not to ingest anymore APAP, but in your case, I think I need to highlight that *YOU* DO NOT NEED TO TAKE ANYMORE APAP ANYTIME SOON. AT ALL. NONE.


SG.xxx

P.S. I apologize if this post seems kind of harsh but I am just shocked at your complete disregard for your own life after everyone here has tken the time to give you advice and information. What are you thinking? Well....its pretty obvious you're not thinking..

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very well put retort. Irresponsibility must be called irresponsibility, not smoothed down to better adhere to political correctness.
Sometimes harsh is necessary, espicially when a person refuses to take sensible advice and continues putting themselves at risk. Well said.
essential safety advice

Last edited by southern girl; 16-03-2012 at 14:43. Reason: Because I was majorly ranting I had typo's, mistakes, and had to clarify a few things.
  #43  
Old 16-03-2012, 12:47
DiabolicScheme DiabolicScheme is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by eklypised View Post
It wasnt this swim......swims fish
So are you talking about a friend or you taking 20 grams?
  #44  
Old 16-03-2012, 13:46
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

Guys, I don't know what the etiquette is regarding discussing OP's when they aren't online to clarify things, but it appears from going over his posts/threads that there's a significant problem with overuse/abuse.

There's even one thread that has been closed where 'swim' was wondering about the maximum dosages people have taken of oxycodone, this 'maximum daily' is a common denominator, regardless of all the information presented.
Including a maximum daily dose thread on Tylenol on page 4!
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59896

Promethazine was also abused just for the effects which caused 'swim' alarm.

It's probably safe to assume he is discussing his own behaviour, or he's trying to get a bite.
Either way it's immature, and ultimately not going to yield any positive results considering nothing has changed since he registered in 2008 (forum activity wise)
Have a look at his posts if you care to, as this is repetitive behaviour I'm afraid.
This is only an example, I don't want to make too much mess with links.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=178090

Post Quality Evaluations:
useful overview and analysis of OPs posts

Last edited by iceflame; 17-03-2012 at 00:19. Reason: Removed link with error message.
  #45  
Old 16-03-2012, 15:40
Mindless Mindless is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

What I fail to understand is why anyone who has taken more than the recommended amount of acetaminophen would make DF their first choice for medical advice. There is indeed a wealth of information and expertise available here, it would be best if DF were referred to as a source of information on Cold Water Extraction of codeine from tablets containing acetaminophen. However, DF is not an emergency medical service, or a poisons advice hotline. The only sensible option is to call emergency services or go to hospital. Prompt treatment in hospital is vital in acetaminophen overdose, delays in seeking treatment may be fatal.

In the case of acetaminophen overdose in the UK, treatment with activated charcoal is only given here more than 150mg/kilo has been taken, or 75 mg/kilo in those at high risk (as already discussed in this thread). This does not mean that there is no possibility of liver damage below these doses. Treatment with Acetylcysteine may be of benefit, and should be given in the absence of information on plasma-acetaminophen concentrations. Treatment is based on plasma concentration, which should be taken not less than four hours after ingestion.

"Acetylcysteine protects the liver if infused up to, and possibly beyond, 24 hours of ingesting paracetamol. It is most effective if given within 8 hours of ingestion, after which effectiveness declines. In patients who present 8–36 hours after a potentially toxic ingestion, acetylcysteine treatment should commence immediately even if plasma-paracetamol concentrations are not yet available."

paracetamol_graph_default.jpg

Where overdose on acetaminophen has arisen from cumulative doses, plasma concentrations are more difficult to assess. I wonder how many deaths have followed the BNF recommendations on treatment and plasma concentrations? There is evidence that staggered overdoses are more likely to lead to death than single overdoses. This is something that those who are tempted to take top-ups of acetaminophen/codeine tablets should be aware of.

Sources:
Staggered overdose pattern and delay to hospital presentation are associated with adverse outcomes following paracetamol-induced hepatotoxicity. Darren G. N. Craig et al, 2012.

British National Formulary 63, March 2012.

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for potentially lifesaving information.

Last edited by Mindless; 16-03-2012 at 15:54. Reason: Punctuation
  #46  
Old 16-03-2012, 16:34
trdofbeingtrd trdofbeingtrd is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

To Marvolo, I wouldn't argue with you about the APAP and the cold water extraction of it, about which one is more safe. I would do a CWE any day of the week before just taking an insane amount of pills with the APAP.

However, I wanted to point out that Marvolo has a point to a degree. While doing a CWE on pills is safer (no doubt at all), what is dangerous is people thinking that because they do a CWE that whatever they dose is going to be safe. I am not saying this because of the APAP, I am saying this because of the opiate itself. People cannot just do any amount as often as they want even with CWE done and still be safe. Opiates are still opiates, I think now that it's agreed by EVERYONE that the amount taken was far to much and the person needs to see a doctor right away, this thread is going to be one circle argument following another.

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balanced answer and reminder of codeine's potential for overdose
  #47  
Old 16-03-2012, 21:39
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

To clarify swim took 5.5 grams....swim DID NOT take 20 grams...that was somebody else..they told swim what they done an swim posted it on here...swims been doin CWE and not takin over 3 grams n 24 hours
  #48  
Old 16-03-2012, 22:34
trdofbeingtrd trdofbeingtrd is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

I am still sicking with what I had said, regardless if the same person took that amount (which the above post the OP says it was not the same person for both doses) or not, it's been said that WHOEVER took that insane amount needs to go to the ER.

This is no offense to the member "eklypised" but upon reading that ANYONE taking 10grams of acetominophen should get to a doctor as soon as possible because it for sure without a doubt is enough for that person to die, reacted pretty calmly with no update about the said person. In other words, the 5.5grams was not updated and there was no "OH SHIT, I TOLD HIM TO GET TO THE ER RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HIS LIFE WAS ON THE LINE", nothing basically freaking out that his friend is going to die. I am not calling eklypised a liar, maybe this member just does not show fear and concern through their typing. So, just so you know, when you put down something that has to do with someone's life and after learning the said information is a matter of life and death, it's very polite and respectful for you to let us know that you not only told them, but if they are still alive or not.

This story is starting to sound like a story because some things don't add up, but let's just go with the member DID get freaked out for their friend, the member DID contact the friend the INSTANTLY got the friend help (via 911 or making sure the friend went), and the member just forgot to tell the members here what happened to the friend who's life is in danger. Please in the future, when it is such a sensitive and important (life or death) thread that you give an update. The members here give help because they care, and because they care, we all like to hear a happy ending and not just wonder if someone else died.

Thank you though for wanting to be as safe as possible, again, I apologize for calling it like this.
  #49  
Old 16-03-2012, 23:05
baZING baZING is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

I really don't have much to add to trd's well-stated post other than to stress that we would all like to know what happened to your friend. Even if it's not good news, though we all hope they're okay.

To the OP, clearly someone needs to spell this out for you: please stop using "SWIM", not only here, but everywhere on DF. There is no rule against self-incrimination anymore other than in certain Forums such as Extraction and Drug Manufacturing/cultivation. I understand, however, that some people still wish not to incriminate themselves. SWIM is not the way to do it anymore, and in fact, is highly discouraged as it is a flimsy cover up. If you don't want to self-incriminate, tell us about a pet who likes the same drugs as you. Lots of us have them. I get that old habits die hard but please strike SWIM from your vocabulary, especially when discussing life-or-death situations. Don't mean to be rude, that's just how you should be doing things from this point forward if you choose to avoid self-incriminating.

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well put reminder on not using SWIM
  #50  
Old 16-03-2012, 23:59
eklypised eklypised is offline
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Re: 5.5 grams APAP in 20 hours

My friend is fine.....now not sayin he didnt do major damage to his liver...told him to go to tje ER but u cant make people do shit...im not sure if hes continuin to take APAP or not...but he didnt puke or anything...said he just felt like shit...told his wife to take him to get checked out...that was 2 days ago...havent heard anything since

Last edited by eklypised; 17-03-2012 at 00:07.
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acetaminophen, acetaminophen damage, acetaminophen health risks, acetaminophen overdose, acetaminophen toxicity, bad ideas

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