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  #201  
Old 06-02-2012, 18:49
Doping Advantage Doping Advantage is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianzombie View Post
Kratom does not appear to be a threat.

What do you mean by threat exactly. Its not clear.

Hi Zombie. Thanks so much for responding so quickly with answers reminiscent of an expert. I tried to provide another positive reputation comment, but the system states I need to comment elsewhere first.
Anyway, Kratom does not appear to be a threat because it is difficult to find any reports of kratom causing death. Also, several sources have reported that kratom helped them get off narcotics. Finally, it is a legal substance in the US(at this moment) hinders the ignorant from quickly slapping a dangerous, negative label on it.
However, one state's board of pharmacy reported the dangers of non-FDA approved substances and added "kratom causes addiction and death". As I mentioned above, there is little evidence that kratom is a threat, and it is troubling that the state seems determined to ban all non-FDA approved substances.


After ten weeks of ingesting one tablespoon(in lemon tea) three times daily tolerance increases significantly.

Did you make a proper kratom tea (15min boil in water) or did you just make it as you would a regular tea?


No, a 15 min boil takes too long. If there is evidence that a 15 min boil will slow the onset of tolerance compared to a 2 minute microwave prep, then please share.

The euphoria and analgesia are mostly gone and all that remains is sedation, constipation, and occasional nausea. Even a homemade or store bought extract cannot bring back the euphoria. Therefore, due to high tolerance, loss of desirable effects, continuation of adverse effects, and high price, it is simply logical to quit using kratom.

Unfortunatly, taking kratom in moderate to high doses on a regular basis without leaving at least a couple of days between doses will, for some, result in a loss of the more attractive effects, such as euphoria. Using extracts and enhanced products will not help, if anything it will make it worse.


AFOAF physician stated it was okay to take kratom for fibromyalgia. However, due to significant tolerance, AFOAF asked his physician for a non-narcotic alternative(tramadol) to take instead of kratom. The goal was to stop taking kratom, and use tramadol in its place, for a few weeks so the sensitivity to kratom would return. Consequently, both drugs affect the same receptors making tolerance reduction impossible. Therefore, as you stated below, six weeks of stopping all opioid agonists may be the only solution.

Consequently, the magic question is: How long should kratom be discontinued to restore the desirable effects? Or is there something else that can be done to reduce the tolerance to kratom so the desirable effects may be experienced again? One source mentioned waiting two weeks and then restarting at two tablespoons, rather than one, to regain the euphoria and analgesia.

There is no answer i can give at the moment. Last year i took a break of 6 weeks, with zero kratom use and when i started using again there was no euphoria. There was a reduction in tollerence but the reason for the break was to hopefully get things back to how they had been the first time i used kratom.

Recently i took a break of 10 weeks, still no improvment.


This is unfortunate. As you mention below, six months may be the only solution.

What not to do with kratom:
1. Do not mix kratom, especially an extract, with vodka(or higher proof
alcohol). AFOAF experienced rapid heart rate, sweating, mania, insomnia, and many other horrible effects after combining vodka with kratom extract. This is likely due to the alpha adrenergic activity being enhanced more than the opioid action when combined with alcohol.

Personally i enjoy the combination of Kratom and Vodka. I mix the kratom, vodka and the juice of a lime in a glass jar which i then give a hot water bath, allowing the extracts to be pulled into the hot vodka. This gives me a very relaxing and later sedating effect.

Interesting. Some additional details on this would be helpful. What proportions of each constituent is being used? What is the heating method? How is it possible to give contents in a jar a hot bath?

2. Do not combine kratom with kava. Kava and kratom are excellent when taken separate; however, when combined, the kava overwhelms the kratom action and nausea becomes much worse. It's also a waste of money.

I have combined these in the past but it works best for me if i take the kava a few hours after the kratom when i want to sleep. Kratom seriously prevents my ability to fall into a deep sleep and i found kava helped, although i am not a big user of kava.

Yeah, since the discovery of kratom, kava is now second choice. Taking the kava after kratom for the purpose of sleep sounds logical. After using kava for a few years, it is difficult to fall asleep after taking kava. Only after taking an Ambien pill does sleep come. However, after falling asleep on kava, the sleep is very good and awaking the next morning is very relaxing and has some aphrodisiac property.

What to do with kratom:
1. Kratom is best consumed with lemon juice and water as a tea. Simply pour two tablespoons of lemon juice in a
coffee mug add water till total amount is slightly above middle. Microwave for 1-2 minutes. Place one tablespoon(newbies use one to two teaspoons) of Kratom into hot liquid and let sit for 5min to 30min. Place 5 drops of liquid splenda(improve taste) into tea and one ice cube to make tea luke warm. After ice is melted, drink tea and all kratom grains quickly. Effects set in within 30 minutes.

Interesting idea, but ive never been able to beat the 15 minute boil in water with the juice of a lime. Ive microwaved before but ive found that boiling it for 15 minutes pulls more alkaloids. But each to their own.
I prefare to boil mine down to a small amount that although extremly bitter, can be swallowed in one or two quick gulps.


Yeah, to each his own. But I must say, 15 min boil is much more time consuming and may not result in better effects.

Finally, back to the most important question. How long should kratom use be discontinued to reduce tolerance and regain the positive effects?(2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 months, 1 year?..)

I think it really depends how long you have been using it and how much you have been using.
I remember the first time i quit and experienced withdrawal, i stayed off it for 3 months and when i resumed it was like my first time again. But this was after using daily at 25-50 grams a day for 6 months.

The last 2 breaks or 6 and 10 weeks madeno difference.
I also worry that even after taking 10 weeks, any use that dose not produce euphoria might have ruined the break and that it might be like going back to 10 weeks earlier, ie a waste.

If i was to take another break i would probably give it at least 6 months before i felt that any attempt would be worth it.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for answering this most important question. This is the question that ultimately brought me to this site. I have been using the extract(one month) and the regular powder leaf three times daily for about six months. So maybe a three month break will be enough to bring back the desired effects as you have stated above. I worry too that the three months may not be long enough and the effects afterwards may be the same before the break and it would be a waste. However, it may not be a waste. After giving the body and brain 10 weeks to readjust the number of opioid receptors and amount of endogenous endorphins, I doubt one dose is going to instantly reverse 10 weeks of physiologic change.

Please excuse the poor layout of my responses. I highlighted your previous response and clicked "wrap'book'tag" and somehow it wrapped all the information except for the very last paragraph. So I put an underline on my response and then realized the most of the information was already highlighted. Oh well, hope you can decipher my latest response from the previous info.

Thanks again.
  #202  
Old 06-02-2012, 20:22
ianzombie ianzombie is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

This might take a while, im finding it very hard to follow.

No, a 15 min boil takes too long. If there is evidence that a 15 min boil will slow the onset of tolerance compared to a 2 minute microwave prep, then please share.

15 minutes is too long?
How can you not spare 15 minutes.
I made no claim whatsoever about slowing tollerence.

Boiling kratom for 15 minutes will extract a LOT more alkaloids than a 2 minute microwave. I have tried multiple methods over 7 or 8 years and the tea made with a 15 minute boil with some lemon is the best tea method.
I mearly gave you that info so you would not be wasting any kratom, however feel free to use the method that works best for you.

Interesting. Some additional details on this would be helpful. What proportions of each constituent is being used? What is the heating method? How is it possible to give contents in a jar a hot bath?

Take a look at my thread on making basic kratom extracts.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=158056

Good luck with the break, i hope you have more success than i did
  #203  
Old 11-03-2012, 04:38
pygmalion pygmalion is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Hey everyone!

First post. Here goes nothin.


Quote:
Finally, back to the most important question. How long should kratom use be discontinued to reduce tolerance and regain the positive effects?(2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 months, 1 year?..)

I think it really depends how long you have been using it and how much you have been using.
I remember the first time i quit and experienced withdrawal, i stayed off it for 3 months and when i resumed it was like my first time again. But this was after using daily at 25-50 grams a day for 6 months.

The last 2 breaks or 6 and 10 weeks madeno difference.
I also worry that even after taking 10 weeks, any use that dose not produce euphoria might have ruined the break and that it might be like going back to 10 weeks earlier, ie a waste.
I was speaking to this guy who has some experience in these matters.

First off, he has been using Bali kratom leaf every day for just over a year, and at least three times a week for 3 months prior to that. The quantities he uses have remained stable for the 12 months that he has been a daily user. The quantities are 2-4g max dose, 2-5 times a day.

At these doses he still gets all the positive effects he ever got, but not every time. This is important, he tells me, because he never got them all, all of the time. In fact, he swears that he only ever got the "proper" effects maybe 25% of the time. The rest of the time it is still good, but not as good as he knows it can be. Does this sound familiar?

Recently he was worrying that he wasn't getting the same high as those first few times, but he kept cool, maintained the same dose, spaced the doses out abit more (minimum of four hours between doses), and then after a few days of frustration, everything was back to normal for him. (Interestingly, people on this site have reported the effectiveness of tapered doses in preventing withdrawals, who knows if they would have been able to obtain good effects again if they had persisted with these lower doses, rather than stopping altogether.)

Let's be clear, this guy is addicted, he has not retained control and his addiction is such that if he doesn't take a dose for twenty hours he starts to feel somewhat tired, teary, achey and grumpy. He doesn't know what happens after this as he always takes a dose within a few hours of onset of WD's. But, on the positive side he has found that if he sticks to these relatively (very?) low doses, he still gets his beloved stimulating effects, with euphoria, most of the time.

So based on this purely anecdotal evidence from one subject.
Thoughts:
1. Sticking with the minimum dosage one can get high on might help to stave off tolerance. (probably stating the bleedin' obvious)

2.Not redosing instantly when desired effects aren't achieved might help to stave off tolerance.

3. Complete abstinence might not be necessary to reduce tolerance, merely reducing dosage.

4.Kratom might be a bit unreliable anyway, but seem more so when one has become dependent on it (definitely want to hear others' thoughts on this one).

Lots of Love

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Good post and good advice.
  #204  
Old 11-03-2012, 05:19
seaturtle seaturtle is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIY should bite the bullet and quit for a day or 2, and then try and get on a schedule where SWIY isn't taking it everyday. SWIY is playing with fire and will get burned if control is not exercised over the kratom. Also, if SWIY does cut down use significantly the magic should come back, so in the end SWIY will get higher than if they just kept taking it all the time.

Being in a position where SWIY fears quitting for even a day is really bad psychologically, SWIY will be much happier if they get out of that cycle.
  #205  
Old 11-03-2012, 05:20
Chaz5773 Chaz5773 is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

They did test in sweden for 5 yrs found that smokers that acetaminophen aka tylenol at 500 mg or more can cause lung cancer faster than if not taking it. The government made meds that use it to reduce it to 325mg . Sad but true. FDA is now admitting it and warning chronic smokers and tylenol users. Probally lawyers soon will hop on it with biig law suits. All these years and now they know it ? Bummer. So alot of People switch to Kratom instead now. Organic farm kratom.
  #206  
Old 11-03-2012, 11:53
pygmalion pygmalion is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Hey
Thank you Sea Turtle

That guy i was talking about certainly will stop once this year's exams are over.

He just wanted me to post his experience because he saw all these reports from people hooked on >50g, and was trying to get the message across that one doesn't always need that much.

He used to never even consider taking less than 10g at a time, but only found that his tolerance would sky rocket at that level.

He now only takes 2-4 grams at a time, and his tolerance doesn't seem to change, as long as he's careful. This is damage limitation though, not prevention. And don't expect to get massively spangled, every time, Kratom is funny that way.

Sea Turtle probably has a very good point though that a year of being stable isn't long enough to make a sound judgement. Best just quit as soon as one can. I know my acquaintance will.
  #207  
Old 20-04-2012, 20:08
Graybeard Graybeard is offline
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Re: Kratom addiction....

I'm a pharmacologist as well as old hippie, and that was as good an explanation as I've seen of the physical dependence and withdrawal phenomenon.
  #208  
Old 20-04-2012, 21:25
ratgirldjh ratgirldjh is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

my rat still takes the same dose of kratom she always has and it still works the exact same for her.
she has been doing this for a couple of years off and on - more on than off...

she uses 1/4 teaspoon of very finely powdered bali leaf.

when she first started she tried 1 teaspoon and felt like she was 'shot out of a cannon' lol

once she tried to get the opiate effects by taking 2 teaspoons and she did actually cop a nod - but she didn't like the sick feelings that went along with it and the abrupt wear off of this 'opiate' feeling.

she has taken the 1/4 teaspoon dose in lieu of other opies and it actually prevented withdrawal. when she tried to take more than this she felt sick to her stomach and jittery and when it wore off the withdrawals came on much worse than with the 1/4 teaspoon which somehow seems to wear off gradually.

kratom is very interesting. she finds that the same dose actually holds her over with no withdrawals when she chooses not to use other opiates!!!

she only does toss and wash since she thinks kratom tastes like henna and can't bear the though of drinking henna tea

she actually believes that LESS is MORE with kratom for some reason and loves this
  #209  
Old 27-04-2012, 20:13
magister magister is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Saw this thread and thought I should add to it.

BD discovered Kratom in 2005 or thereabouts...leading into it he was getting stressed out at work and was taking phenibut to help sleep, this was also because BD did having issues with alcohol in 2003, but really did not like the hangover and loss of coordination/memory and other impairments of alcohol consumption. In late 2004 BD jumped off Phenibut, this was alot easier for him then he thought it would be, and compared to other reports on the board was dealable. BD didn't sleep well for 2-3 days, it was Christmas so there was mulled wine to drink which he had plenty of. Soon after he started a course of modafinil and just started to embrace the 'awake' life. He had a very productive 4-5 months until he found out about Kratom.

At first it was just once a week, then became a couple times a week, and also soon found that on the days off he would get Nurophen Plus tablets to help. Eventually he even tried cold water extraction but did not have good results so bought a larger supply of kratom. Some days he would drink if there was no kratom. BD would only use it at night. Eventually the kilo bag would run out and he would have to face it. He would usually get some hard liqueur the first night, by the 2nd night he could go for a jog, or use a 'floatation tank' and this would help alot. He didn't sleep so well but the worst part had past, in some situations a 2nd night of some stiff shot at night to help chill out. Getting concerned he took a couple weeks off and was able..no problem, but this just set him up again. BD thought 'well that wasn't so bad, its pretty safe and easier than alot of other stuff'. So by 2006-2007 he was using it daily at nights, this then became a 2 dose a day thing but both in the evening, first just after work and the 2nd closer to bed time.

Other things in BD's life were going pretty well, good job with larger salary, working up the skills ladder, plenty of opportunities, but by late 2007-2008 it did get in the way. Made him less motivated, and stress and problems from work would be drowned out with Kratom in the evening. Eventually he quit his job in April 2008 to try working from home. This is when his problem got really out of hand. He started using in the morning, and up to 4 times a day. When his 2 kilo bags ran out he would get really anxious if the parcel was late. Always before this the withdrawal had been bad but tolerable, and actually he really didn't think of Kratom during the day, it was a nightly thing. He would not calculate how much he had left and sometimes place his order too late. Many of his suppliers were overseas so would take longer to arrive and less predictable exactly how long it would take to get thru customs, so he started buying from local vendors at higher prices to get him thru until his 2 kilo parcels arrived with 'top quality' Kratom.

BD's working from home did not go well, it was basically an excuse to slack off, not to mention it was a new business that BD was working on, nothing to do with his skillset or anything. He started to have to use his savings due to the homeworking business not working out, plus he was spending alot on Kratom. The financial pressure was increasing his anxiety but he was just taking more Kratom to cover up the emotional distress caused by this development. BD remembers going on holiday during Easter 2009 and miscalculated how much to bring with him, as he just assumed it was enough to get him thru 10 days, because he wasn't keeping track and just taking what he wanted when he wanted it. It seemed like he was taking a big bag, he had taken much less on previous holidays it was enough, but that was when he still used only once a day at night. Upon arriving he realised he did not have enough to make it comfortably thru the 10 days, he calculated with a spoon in the hotel bathroom that he could split it up into 2 spoons 3x a day just to make it thru. He had a mild WD on the 2nd night and then started the strict regime, basically hardly enjoyed the holiday was on the edge the whole time with just enough to survive. As it turned out the weather was horrible and rained most of the time which made it feel worse. This really brought it home that he was now trapped pretty bad...but he didn't know what to do. He tried to taper down, but things in life got worse and every time the WD hit he would just feel terrible about how his job and financial situation had deteriorated so badly. That summer he had another incident where the parcel was late, this time very late. He tried to get a local vendor to meet him, but didn't work out and had to go thru 2 days without it where he nearly drank himself to death. BD had pushed nearly everyone out of his life during this time, but those who remained told him he had to get this sorted out, they were really scared for him.

BD went to a addiction clinic after hearing about others who had got help for Kratom addiction. The doctor said he had to do a 24 hour detox and then he would measure his physical symptoms. The doctor prescribed subutex at 8mg, which in retrospect was probably a bit too much, but it did alleviate the WD's very well, and even had a sort of high too, by this time Kratom had little euphoria at all, it just made BD feel normal, but relaxed and chilled. Over the past 2 years BD has worked down to 0.8mg, but if he misses a day he still anxiety and some sort of WD. He has overdone his weekly script a few times and has done a day on half a dose then gone a whole day and half without. He starts to get WDs, during this time BD has tried and tried to get his home business working well but he has been realising he is just fighting against the tide. He really wishes he had never left his comfortable and secure job. He used to be a computer programmer and now it has been nearly 4 years since he left it and the skills change so fast, and your resume really has to have recent experience. Everytime he has to face WDs he thinks about his financial worries and it makes it feel even worse. If at least his life was in order maybe he could face up to going thru the withdrawals, but he feels like his life has been torn apart and all his self-confidence is totally gone. Working at home seemed like it would free him from office stress, but actually it has made it so he is sitting at home all day in front of the PC and he never goes out and does not interact with people. Right now he doesn't even care anymore if he can get a job as a programmer again, he would do any work, in some ways he thinks that some sort of outside physical work would be good for him. Alot of stress came from always being in front of the computer all day. BD realised that he has gotten too used to taking subutex, he thought he was doing good because he reduced 10x from 8mg to 0.8mg, but he has been stuck on 0.8mg for over a year now. He forgot he did this so he could go clean, but then he looks at his life and he has not sorted out his job, finances or living conditions at all. He has found ways to hide the realities of his life away from himself by diverting his attention. BD feels like a stupid fool now, but at the same time he knows he has skills and is actually a pretty smart guy and has alot to contribute.

Now BD is wonder if he should have switched to subutex, in terms of how easy it is to actually go completely clean. Maybe he should get off the subutex and back to kratom to jump. On one side he thinks he should try and find a job now before jumping because he will have terrible worries about his life if he were in Withdrawal now, whereas if he has a job it will be difficult to find the time to get thru the worst physical symptoms.

BD realises this is not really about Kratom, BD has a disease called addiction, not everyone is the same. BD even did alot of GHB when it was still legal but was able to get off that, and also the phenibut as mentioned above. Also a alcohol use got quite bad at one point for about a year. Its weird thou when BD was younger while he did use cannabis and other things he never really got hooked or anything.

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Thanks for an interesting addition to the forum.
  #210  
Old 29-04-2012, 05:35
seaturtle seaturtle is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIM has noticed that 2 days after quitting nowadays SWIM's stool is basically liquid, since constipation gives way to a flood apparently. Kratom is the most powerful anti-diarrheal medicine that I know, and is good to have in the house simply for that. Another side effect if Kratom is used for a week or more (which is rare) is minor hives break out on parts of SWIM's body. At that point SWIM stops taking Kratom for a few days and it's fine.

SWIM has been on a schedule of a few Kratom experiences per week. Tolerance ~15 g to have a good night.

Last edited by seaturtle; 01-05-2012 at 01:14.
  #211  
Old 29-04-2012, 14:12
alanko007 alanko007 is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIM has been using kratom (mostly daily) for approx. 4 months now and during this time had 3 breaks, when he was 5 days without kratom during each break.

SWIM is now having a longer break (it's been 2 weeks today and the WDs don't seem to go away. SWIM is beginning to think whether its WDs or something else (he has IBS, possibly Gilbert's syndrome).

SWIM had mild diarrhea in the first few days, then he had a very sore throat and he still has a very runny nose (he could isolate the whole house with the amount of mucus). A few days ago SWIM started experiencing constant stomach aches (in the whole abdominal area) and occasional headaches (SWIM never had a single headache in his whole life!). Also he is sweating a lot and has serious fatigue. Could this be connected to the kratom WDs?

Last edited by alanko007; 29-04-2012 at 14:23.
  #212  
Old 01-05-2012, 01:20
seaturtle seaturtle is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanko007 View Post
SWIM has been using kratom (mostly daily) for approx. 4 months now and during this time had 3 breaks, when he was 5 days without kratom during each break.

SWIM is now having a longer break (it's been 2 weeks today and the WDs don't seem to go away. SWIM is beginning to think whether its WDs or something else (he has IBS, possibly Gilbert's syndrome).

SWIM had mild diarrhea in the first few days, then he had a very sore throat and he still has a very runny nose (he could isolate the whole house with the amount of mucus). A few days ago SWIM started experiencing constant stomach aches (in the whole abdominal area) and occasional headaches (SWIM never had a single headache in his whole life!). Also he is sweating a lot and has serious fatigue. Could this be connected to the kratom WDs?
Sweating, runny nose, and fatigue are all things SWIM has experienced from Kratom withdrawal, but have been relatively minor and easy to handle (if not preventable with proper countermeasures).

SWIM doesn't get stomach aches after ceasing use, likely due to habitual Cannabis use.

SWIM is concerned that it's been 2 weeks and symptoms are still getting worse for SWIY, keep sticking it out, but it could be something else. Easiest way to find out is take a small amount of Kratom and see if the symptoms are alleviated, and if so just keep sticking it out until symptoms are gone. It could easily be something else though, sicknesses happen, not everything is a withdrawal! SWIM has never had withdrawals from Kratom past 5 days.

If SWIY could post an estimate of total kratom ingested and average kratom per session that may help narrow down the answer. If it's a ton then maybe SWIY is still in withdrawal, kratom is unforgiving when it comes to continual high doses.
  #213  
Old 01-05-2012, 09:03
alanko007 alanko007 is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIM's average was 7g a day. Less is more! :P SWIM feels better now and the symptoms are subsiding.
SWIM thinks that the longer-lasting symptoms may have occured because SWIM had been using other opiates before switching to kratom. That gives a total of 7 months of opiate usage without a longer break than a few weeks.
  #214  
Old 02-05-2012, 05:47
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by magister View Post
Saw this thread and thought I should add to it.

BD discovered Kratom in 2005 or thereabouts...leading into it he was getting stressed out at work and was taking phenibut to help sleep, this was also because BD did having issues with alcohol in 2003, but really did not like the hangover and loss of coordination/memory and other impairments of alcohol consumption. In late 2004 BD jumped off Phenibut, this was alot easier for him then he thought it would be, and compared to other reports on the board was dealable. BD didn't sleep well for 2-3 days, it was Christmas so there was mulled wine to drink which he had plenty of. Soon after he started a course of modafinil and just started to embrace the 'awake' life. He had a very productive 4-5 months until he found out about Kratom.

At first it was just once a week, then became a couple times a week, and also soon found that on the days off he would get Nurophen Plus tablets to help. Eventually he even tried cold water extraction but did not have good results so bought a larger supply of kratom. Some days he would drink if there was no kratom. BD would only use it at night. Eventually the kilo bag would run out and he would have to face it. He would usually get some hard liqueur the first night, by the 2nd night he could go for a jog, or use a 'floatation tank' and this would help alot. He didn't sleep so well but the worst part had past, in some situations a 2nd night of some stiff shot at night to help chill out. Getting concerned he took a couple weeks off and was able..no problem, but this just set him up again. BD thought 'well that wasn't so bad, its pretty safe and easier than alot of other stuff'. So by 2006-2007 he was using it daily at nights, this then became a 2 dose a day thing but both in the evening, first just after work and the 2nd closer to bed time.

Other things in BD's life were going pretty well, good job with larger salary, working up the skills ladder, plenty of opportunities, but by late 2007-2008 it did get in the way. Made him less motivated, and stress and problems from work would be drowned out with Kratom in the evening. Eventually he quit his job in April 2008 to try working from home. This is when his problem got really out of hand. He started using in the morning, and up to 4 times a day. When his 2 kilo bags ran out he would get really anxious if the parcel was late. Always before this the withdrawal had been bad but tolerable, and actually he really didn't think of Kratom during the day, it was a nightly thing. He would not calculate how much he had left and sometimes place his order too late. Many of his suppliers were overseas so would take longer to arrive and less predictable exactly how long it would take to get thru customs, so he started buying from local vendors at higher prices to get him thru until his 2 kilo parcels arrived with 'top quality' Kratom.

BD's working from home did not go well, it was basically an excuse to slack off, not to mention it was a new business that BD was working on, nothing to do with his skillset or anything. He started to have to use his savings due to the homeworking business not working out, plus he was spending alot on Kratom. The financial pressure was increasing his anxiety but he was just taking more Kratom to cover up the emotional distress caused by this development. BD remembers going on holiday during Easter 2009 and miscalculated how much to bring with him, as he just assumed it was enough to get him thru 10 days, because he wasn't keeping track and just taking what he wanted when he wanted it. It seemed like he was taking a big bag, he had taken much less on previous holidays it was enough, but that was when he still used only once a day at night. Upon arriving he realised he did not have enough to make it comfortably thru the 10 days, he calculated with a spoon in the hotel bathroom that he could split it up into 2 spoons 3x a day just to make it thru. He had a mild WD on the 2nd night and then started the strict regime, basically hardly enjoyed the holiday was on the edge the whole time with just enough to survive. As it turned out the weather was horrible and rained most of the time which made it feel worse. This really brought it home that he was now trapped pretty bad...but he didn't know what to do. He tried to taper down, but things in life got worse and every time the WD hit he would just feel terrible about how his job and financial situation had deteriorated so badly. That summer he had another incident where the parcel was late, this time very late. He tried to get a local vendor to meet him, but didn't work out and had to go thru 2 days without it where he nearly drank himself to death. BD had pushed nearly everyone out of his life during this time, but those who remained told him he had to get this sorted out, they were really scared for him.

BD went to a addiction clinic after hearing about others who had got help for Kratom addiction. The doctor said he had to do a 24 hour detox and then he would measure his physical symptoms. The doctor prescribed subutex at 8mg, which in retrospect was probably a bit too much, but it did alleviate the WD's very well, and even had a sort of high too, by this time Kratom had little euphoria at all, it just made BD feel normal, but relaxed and chilled. Over the past 2 years BD has worked down to 0.8mg, but if he misses a day he still anxiety and some sort of WD. He has overdone his weekly script a few times and has done a day on half a dose then gone a whole day and half without. He starts to get WDs, during this time BD has tried and tried to get his home business working well but he has been realising he is just fighting against the tide. He really wishes he had never left his comfortable and secure job. He used to be a computer programmer and now it has been nearly 4 years since he left it and the skills change so fast, and your resume really has to have recent experience. Everytime he has to face WDs he thinks about his financial worries and it makes it feel even worse. If at least his life was in order maybe he could face up to going thru the withdrawals, but he feels like his life has been torn apart and all his self-confidence is totally gone. Working at home seemed like it would free him from office stress, but actually it has made it so he is sitting at home all day in front of the PC and he never goes out and does not interact with people. Right now he doesn't even care anymore if he can get a job as a programmer again, he would do any work, in some ways he thinks that some sort of outside physical work would be good for him. Alot of stress came from always being in front of the computer all day. BD realised that he has gotten too used to taking subutex, he thought he was doing good because he reduced 10x from 8mg to 0.8mg, but he has been stuck on 0.8mg for over a year now. He forgot he did this so he could go clean, but then he looks at his life and he has not sorted out his job, finances or living conditions at all. He has found ways to hide the realities of his life away from himself by diverting his attention. BD feels like a stupid fool now, but at the same time he knows he has skills and is actually a pretty smart guy and has alot to contribute.

Now BD is wonder if he should have switched to subutex, in terms of how easy it is to actually go completely clean. Maybe he should get off the subutex and back to kratom to jump. On one side he thinks he should try and find a job now before jumping because he will have terrible worries about his life if he were in Withdrawal now, whereas if he has a job it will be difficult to find the time to get thru the worst physical symptoms.

BD realises this is not really about Kratom, BD has a disease called addiction, not everyone is the same. BD even did alot of GHB when it was still legal but was able to get off that, and also the phenibut as mentioned above. Also a alcohol use got quite bad at one point for about a year. Its weird thou when BD was younger while he did use cannabis and other things he never really got hooked or anything.
I don't know if BD intended it this way, but what I get from this is that BD is blaming kratom for his recent downfalls even though it was most likely depression and laziness that really caused it. I've never heard of people having kratom WDs so badly that they almost "drink themselves to death." To me, it seems that there are some underlying issues that BD needs to deal with instead of focusing his faults on the kratom use. BD even says that he had a productive 4-5 months *before* he found kratom. Not every substance is for everyone. It seems like kratom doesn't do BD any good, so maybe he should drop it, pull up some courage for a couple weeks, and get his life back on track.

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My thoughts exactly.
Exactly.
  #215  
Old 31-05-2012, 21:21
raek raek is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

I find it really interesting and scary that kratom dependency and all of the side effects of frequent kratom usage come on so slowly that you don't even notice until a few months in. I've been using every 2nd day now for 3 months (Wow time goes sooo fast..) and the first month was heavenly! Kratom energized me so much, and sure, the day afterwards I'd be tired and lazy but I would just spend it enjoying the contrast of downtime against the 'uptime' of kratom. It felt like a nice variety... Kratom used to suppress my appetite, and give me a euphoric energy and love for everything that lasted anywhere from 6 - 12 hours long! I was losing weight, exercise, hanging out with friends, putting myself out there, taking up new hobbies, not overeating anymore, all of these great habits! It felt like a miracle for my anxiety, depression and fatigue, I was so excited about this stuff, I ordered tons of it in fear that it would be banned and decided this is how i'd finally have the energy to get a job, to build a social life, all this stuff.. Get my life back on track

unfortunately, I decided to use 3 days in a row somewhere in my 2nd month, and ever since then my tolerance has been a lot higher. Now when I use kratom, I get some kind of endorphin rush for 30 mins to 1 hour and then I feel an irritable fatigue, dazed, unfocused kind of feeling, alternating with a few minutes of rage or pure depression that I'm unable to obtain the old feeling. Oddly enough kratom now gives me 7 hours of pure ravenous hunger, a feeling that I must use food as a drug to get me to feel the way I did on kratom before. Whereas before I was losing weight and feeling great, now I've gained 10 pounds in 2 months, and feel chronically fatigued in a dazed, unmotivated way, that kratom can only take away for 30 minutes if at all. Not to mention my sleep quality is always horrible, whether I can't sleep at all or I sleep for 13 hours, I feel tired all the next day and like I can't wake up. Also am constipated... And can't enjoy anything with or without kratom.

The worst effect has been this lack of motivation. I was depressed, fatigued, and unmotivated to start with, but this is a whole new level, there aren't even little peaks of energy and motivation, it's just gone completely.

Today is my 2nd day off of kratom and today is usually when I dose. The last time I used was 2 days ago and I dosed 3 times in a row, all night long until 4AM! I don't know why... I thought if I built my tolerance up enough that kratom would only cause negative effects, it would help me quit. But instead I have just been feeling extra horrible these last two days, complete with a headache and no interest in anything, no social connection to human beings (I feel like I can't think about what I'm going to say, and have 0 social energy, it's hard even to listen to other people... Or music!) and I'm actually craving kratom which has never happened... At the same time I know if I dose right now then I'll just feel anger, dazed, fatigue, and I'll actually feel worse on it then I do now. I think I'm addicted. I really did not correlate these little symptoms with my kratom usage, until they became unwavering.

I'm contemplating which is a better route: tapering down, or just going off of it all together?

raek added 11 Minutes and 56 Seconds later...

I'm going to try using about 1 tsp (that's about 2-3grams?) every 2nd or 3rd day and once my tolernace has lowered and adjusted to that, I'll chop off my usage completely.... I will update once I reach a new point.

raek added 61 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...

I feel rather stupid. Looking back on the original reason why I started using kratom, it's becuase I had a new friend who I liked who was always WAY more energized than I was, and I felt like I had to be more 'up' to be around him without being a downer to him. In the end I found out he is using hard drugs and that's why he always was so energized. Ha! I wonder if addictions are contagious....

Post Quality Evaluations:
A fantastic post highlighting how quickly things can turn sour when kratom is abused. This is very similiar to my own experiences. A good warning.
Very good insight of kratom addiction. Take care.
I like how this post ends with a reminder that being happy is being yourself. Cheers.

Last edited by raek; 31-05-2012 at 21:21. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #216  
Old 17-06-2012, 18:03
seaturtle seaturtle is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIM was using ~15 g bali Kratom basically everyday for 3-4 weeks in a row, with about a day a week where SWIM didn't take Kratom (that day always sucked). SWIM was messing with extracts for a few days towards the end of that run, honestly since regular bali wasn't doing it anymore. Even though SWIM thinks he isn't completely out of control, SWIM feels the addiction creeping up strongly and it concerns SWIM big time.

SWIM is attempting a multi-day break to set tolerance straight/cleanse SWIM's system of Kratom alkaloids. SWIM's goal is to continue using Kratom without developing a physical addiction, so this is necessary. SWIM hasn't used Kratom since about 10 pm Thursday night, so it's been 43 hours now. SWIM has clonazepam to help going to sleep at night and anxiety in general during this. No major problems yet, and SWIM hasn't even taken any Clonazepam today (which SWIM will put off till necessary).

seaturtle added 1130 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

62 hours now, no physical problems except SWIM's insides are twisted up a bit (more likely from drinking last night). SWIM had a strong craving to dose as soon as possible when SWIM woke up, and is still craving it. SWIM will probably take a decent dose within the next few hours, SWIM wasn't intending on completely quitting Kratom, just a T break.

SWIM has been exercising ALOT during this little break (2+ hours running per day), probably the main reason SWIM isn't a total mess from withdrawal. Clonazepam has a long half life too so it makes life easier even a day after taking any.

Last edited by seaturtle; 17-06-2012 at 18:11. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #217  
Old 20-06-2012, 03:22
Shwags Shwags is offline
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Re: Kratom addiction....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa View Post
50-70 grams a day? That is an enormous pile of Kratom. I have never read about anyone doing those amounts. SWIY is writing about unexplored teritory, so all one can do is guess and estimate upon experiences from members which have done lower amounts of kratom.
Yeah that's so goddamn much. If you use anything to that kind of excess there are gonna be consequences.

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Would you please elaborate or share your knowledge on said consequences?
  #218  
Old 12-08-2012, 18:31
seaturtle seaturtle is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIM has continued to habitually use Kratom, 10-11 grams about every day. Fortunately tolerance hasn't gone up as far as SWIM can tell, 10-11 grams is about the dose SWIM has been using since discovering Kratom over a year ago (if not a little less, SWIM recalls being up to 12-15 grams when they weren't being as responsible). The rule SWIM sticks to is no Kratom within 20 hours of a previous dose, since dosing more than that is the sort of thing that can ruin tolerance from what SWIM has experienced. SWIM believes it is probably more dangerous to take Kratom all day than to take a large dose separated by a significant amount of time, recovery time is essential for Kratom to keep working. SWIM knows they are ready for another dose when some of the early withdrawal symptoms show up, which honestly aren't bad at all even out to 30 hours after a dose. Some agitation, bowels move more, a little depression, hot/cold flashes, itchiness, insomnia, and a rash. It's not like these occur everyday fortunately, usually 1 or 2 in that list show up and it varies between days, and some of it can probably be attributed to getting stressed out during the average work day.

Obviously SWIM has an addiction going even if it is in control, and SWIM is strongly considering starting a taper soon since SWIM is scared of going in too deep after dealing with cigarettes. It's just SWIM isn't sure they actually want to quit... Kratom has helped make evenings and nights very relaxing, keeping SWIM away from drinking and other sorts of trouble that would likely occur otherwise. A night of Kratom use leads to feeling good in the morning instead of hungover, studying and working instead of partying, and physically SWIM is healthier than they have ever been in their life. They have been running 2-3 hours a day. I suppose one problem with Kratom is it does cloud the mind a little, studying is harder to do when regularly using Kratom, besides during the come up when Kratom seems to sharpen focus.
  #219  
Old 03-09-2012, 01:50
Nujabes Nujabes is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

I have a question for those who are experienced with kratom since I recently discovered the herb.

How would you go about taking it to enjoy the high that it can provide WITHOUT getting to the point of experiencing withdrawls?

How often is too often?

What dose is too much?

I really cannot afford to get into a habitual use of kratom at this point and the depression / anxiety people seem to get for even weeks to months on end is a frightening idea!

I'm sure this has been answered but there is too much to sift through at this point.
  #220  
Old 04-09-2012, 02:18
Maxfrombx Maxfrombx is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

It depends if you're talking about the plant or about the extracts. Extracts are much more addictive.

You can consume leaves 3-4 days a week without problems. With extracts, don't exceed 1-2 days a week (including redosing).

I personnaly found that UEI (Ultra Enhanced Indo) was physically addictive if I used it 3 days in a row. Even if it was the most potent extract I used (even more than the 8% mytragynine extract), I was striken by its addictive potential. At the time, I suspected that other opioids were added into it (like o-desmethyl-tramadol)

Anyway, if you use regular leaves, I would say, leave 1 or 2 days between each use.
  #221  
Old 04-09-2012, 03:01
Nujabes Nujabes is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

Thank you for the reply. I have not purchased extracts and do not plan on purchasing them due to the addiction potential. Some of these stories are truly gut wrenching and my best wishes go out to all those fighting addiction of any sort.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that I do have an "addictive personality." I feel that I am a person that can easily become dependent on a substance but it has never gotten out of control... yet. SWIM has indulged in marijuana on a daily basis during the past year in college but has stopped use due to an upcoming drug test. That's how SWIM began reading up on legal highs and discovered Kratom.

It's hard to believe this substance is still available for purchase OTC when such dramatic effects can be reached with proper dosage, not to mention the potential for addiction. Anyways my best wishes to everyone out there, stay strong!
  #222  
Old 04-09-2012, 03:54
Maxfrombx Maxfrombx is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

It's only one substance out of many others that is legal but which must be treated with respect...
  #223  
Old 11-09-2012, 22:37
Phuzed Phuzed is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

SWIMs been tapering down and at night and has been getting these very interesting and annoying mindset/half dreamlike states. This only occurs when some minor withdrawals have kicked in. When SWIMS in this state he's not fully awake or aware and he's definitely not fully asleep. SWIM has some RLS going on but his mind is in overdrive mode. He cycles through these almost puzzle like problems within his head.

It gets weird when it turns into a color coded or math like problem where he thinks if he can figure out this problem he might be able to sleep. Being awake he knows this is just absolutely ridiculous and it's just his mind not being able to calm down. But in the moment he's not aware he's doing it and it seems like a genuine fix to getting to sleep.

Was wondering if anyone else experiences anything like this? It's incredibly annoying and leaves him exhausted because it's anything but peaceful sleep/relaxation. At the same time he's fascinated by the occurrence of this mindset. Why would his mind try and solve a problem in order to trick itself into falling asleep? I'm sure some benzos could fix this but he doesn't have access to such a thing.
  #224  
Old 11-09-2012, 23:49
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Re: Kratom Addiction

I got that a lot Phuzed. It was almost like my dreams or my ability to dream was broken. I get the puzzle thing exactly. It took me a week or two of putting up with it before things started to settle down. While i was aware that i was not getting a full sleep, time did pass quickly and i got enough rest to get through the day. I just had to grin and bare it for a while.
  #225  
Old 13-09-2012, 06:57
Dankfish Dankfish is offline
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Re: Kratom Addiction

I've also gotten this dream-awake state. I go for what feels like half an hour where I am not conscious and then I come to and it's just like 'woah, I was definitely not sleeping.. but what in the **** was I just thinking about for that long?'

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