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Kratom Mitragyna speciosa

 
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  #1  
Old 16-12-2011, 19:03
krispy krispy is offline
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Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

SWIM asked about Kratom side-effects, after apparently using some fairly potent Kratom (not enhanced, just good Kratom) 4-5 days straight and suddenly found that his back muscles decided to go on strike, unable to bend and lift even fairly light items. SWIM has no history of back troubles, which makes it even more difficult to explain. There was some occasional clonazepam use during the 4-5 day period, but only 1mg a few times per day.

SWIM went practically fetal with discomfort, and it was severe enough as to re-evaluate his use of it.

SWIM started out with 6-7 gram doses and worked it up to 10-12 grams, of varied frequency and varied Kratom names. (I know the Kratom names don't necessarily mean much, but the particular vendor providing the Kratom has many unrelated persons agreeing it to be top notch. Not "shop" stuff, either.)

Has anyone heard of other reports like this, muscle related weakness and/or cramps related to Kratom? Everything ELSE was fine; no nausea, or any other discomforts. And SWIM seems to completely recover from this (withdrawal, OD, or whatever it is) within 48 hours of no use.

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Good question and experience report - mild kratom withdrawal after short binges has been discussed very little
  #2  
Old 16-12-2011, 19:27
FantasysEctasy FantasysEctasy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Yes. Kratom is a fantastic pain reducer. It makes sense when taking it for a week straight then stopping, you will feel mild muscle discomfort. It happens too me, but usually subsides after a day or two as well. In fact I have it now. If you aren't already aware, the alkaloids in kratom interact with the opioid receptors. Knowing that opioids are major prescription painkillers, it makes sense when you stop kratom after days of daily use you will get muscle aches and pains. It's just another annoying kratom side effect. I have horrible constipation with kratom, so personally I can be less worried about the aches and pains.
  #3  
Old 16-12-2011, 20:31
krispy krispy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Thanks for the input. I guess it only makes sense that there would be at least some physical (and psychological) consequences from heavy use of anything, including Kratom. It's still a very mild withdraw compared to what SWIM has experienced with classic opiates/opioids.

I think SWIM went wrong when he got caught in the classic abuse pattern, chasing an outcome that just wasn't going to happen, trying to achieve a hard-core result from an essentially mild & beneficial plant.

Kratom is an interesting species, SWIM just needs to remember to take breaks from it, and treat it with respect.
  #4  
Old 18-12-2011, 02:12
Would-Be MD Would-Be MD is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

SWIM has has some similar reactions when coming off Kratom "binges". Something unique to Kraton (SWIM has been a huge Oxy user in the past) is that everything is more sentisitive. When his GF touches his skin it's like it's "extra sensitive" (which is great for sex, not so good if you have any kind of chronic or acute pain).

Remember that Kratom has lots of alkaloids in it and although we have a good idea of how they work, some of them may have totally unexpected effects and results than standard, laboratory produced opiates. So it's only natural to expect that the W/D could have unusual symptoms as well. If it doesn't ease up, obviously see an MD, but I wish you all the best.
  #5  
Old 25-06-2012, 15:19
darkcharmer darkcharmer is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
SWIM asked about Kratom side-effects, after apparently using some fairly potent Kratom (not enhanced, just good Kratom) 4-5 days straight and suddenly found that his back muscles decided to go on strike, unable to bend and lift even fairly light items. SWIM has no history of back troubles, which makes it even more difficult to explain. There was some occasional clonazepam use during the 4-5 day period, but only 1mg a few times per day.

SWIM went practically fetal with discomfort, and it was severe enough as to re-evaluate his use of it.
Sounds like clonazepam may actually be the culprit here, given that benzos may be the most physically addictive substances known to man (key word: physically), and 1mg a few times/day is in fact a lot. How many times do you mean by a few? Also, was your use of it continuous throughout this 4-5 day period?

The other possibility is that you experienced mild, normally imperceptible withdrawals from both kratom and clonazepam simultaneously, and the effect was additive. Both opiates (the only kratom alkaloids that could produce physical addiction so quickly) and benzos are depressants, so your nervous system could temporarily be displaying rebound stimulation. In other words, you may be experiencing pain from the mild opiate withdrawal, which is then amplified along with all other nervous system activity by the mild benzo withdrawal.

Furthermore, both kratom and benzodiazepines slaughter your sleep architecture/quality (especially long-acting ones like clonazepam), so on top of that, you're exhausted even if you don't feel it. Tiredness can cause - and worsen - a lot of aches and pains, which would make your discomfort even greater.

This is, of course, just a hypothesis, but it's still a good rule of thumb never to mix substances that act on the opioid system with those that are GABAergics (including benzodiazepines and alcohol) or to use either of them for too long - the cumulative effects can be nasty. My advice would be to use kratom more sparingly (as it's a great substance when one is careful) and avoid mixing it with clonazepam or any benzodiazepine, and see if you have the same result.

Also remember that more does not equal better with kratom - it's a 'sweet spot' drug. Most drugs are, to be sure, but IMHO kratom more so than most - once you're getting a positive effect, taking more will usually worsen the buzz, adding side effects and hangovers. This varies strain-to-strain, but it's a good idea to always treat it as such - you'll thank yourself for it the next day . I suspect most of us have fallen into this trap at some point (this is great! If I take even more it'll be great-er!) - I certainly have. It's only natural, it's the way the reward system is wired. However, if you keep this in mind when using kratom, it's much easier to stop yourself from escalating your dose. Perhaps even put a sticker on your bag of kratom reminding yourself of this (saying e.g. "Remember: if you're buzzed from kratom, taking more will not make you more buzzed").

Hope that helps .

Post Quality Evaluations:
Very imformative post. Benzo's are the most physically addicting by far.
  #6  
Old 25-06-2012, 19:45
krispy krispy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

I appreciate your response.

The clonazepam is prescribed 1mg 3x/day. Not really finding it euphoric, SWIM sticks to that amount, but has found that for such a seemingly benign substance it is quite a tricky little s.o.b. on the system. If SWIM forgets to take it, it reminds him in most unpleasant little ways. So just how it plays in with Kratom withdraw is a bit of a mystery. The clonazepam has remained constant regardless of Kratom use. So SWIM doesn't know that the withdraw was so much an additive situation.

SWIM has since experienced the withdraw to varying degrees, always in proportion to the Kratom use, or "session", and has finally found a balance that enables the enjoyment of Kratom without the excruciating events of before. Sometimes less is more, or all one needs, and SWIM doesn't overindulge on Kratom trying to chase something that's not going to happen.

There's a Sundanese Kratom that gives SWIM a dreamy nod, and consistently works even with tolerance. A couple of others SWIM finds more stimulating, but thinks he'd have to take a few months off to restore to their original energetic effects.

Again, your knowledgeable response is appreciated. And SWIM has finally found a balance.

P.S. SWIM mentioned that, though agnostic, he nearly achieved personal divinity on a combo of Kratom and 15gms of N20. Sadly, (or fortunately!) he wasn't able to stay there for very long.
  #7  
Old 25-06-2012, 21:32
Shwags Shwags is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by FantasysEctasy View Post
Yes. Kratom is a fantastic pain reducer. It makes sense when taking it for a week straight then stopping, you will feel mild muscle discomfort. It happens too me, but usually subsides after a day or two as well. In fact I have it now. If you aren't already aware, the alkaloids in kratom interact with the opioid receptors. Knowing that opioids are major prescription painkillers, it makes sense when you stop kratom after days of daily use you will get muscle aches and pains. It's just another annoying kratom side effect. I have horrible constipation with kratom, so personally I can be less worried about the aches and pains.
All true, but its highly unusual for those type of WD side effects to occur in a week of use or less. HIGHLY unusual. Usually that kinda thing would take at least 2 weeks of daily use, but with most people 3-4+ weeks . Its possible it was a coincidence, or that the Kratom was alleviating pain that was already there and when you discontinued the Kratom it came back.

Shwags added 4 Minutes and 43 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
I appreciate your response.

The clonazepam is prescribed 1mg 3x/day. Not really finding it euphoric, SWIM sticks to that amount, but has found that for such a seemingly benign substance it is quite a tricky little s.o.b. on the system..
But like the above poster said, that is kind of a lot. especially if that is the dose regiment every single day. Benzos are a bitch when taken daily, I would reevaluate your need for them and see if a more occasional 'as needed' schedule for severe anxiety/panic attacks would be more appropriate.

Last edited by Shwags; 25-06-2012 at 21:32. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #8  
Old 25-06-2012, 21:52
darkcharmer darkcharmer is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
P.S. SWIM mentioned that, though agnostic, he nearly achieved personal divinity on a combo of Kratom and 15gms of N20. Sadly, (or fortunately!) he wasn't able to stay there for very long.
This may be due to alterations in temporal lobe activity induced by kratom's binding to mu-opioid receptors in the region. Michael Persinger has done some interesting experiments on temporal lobe activity alterations and 'divine' experiences. Indeed, the opioid dream/awake state was prized by the often religious romantic poets, and what you're describing may be analogous to that in some way. Furthermore, temporal lobe epileptics often describe having spiritual experiences. Why it's subjectively experienced as such is yet unknown (as far as I know), but it may have to do with upstream deactivation of the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC). The ACC is involved in our subjective experience of the 'self' as an integrated whole, and it thus seems likely that deactivation of this region could result in the 'ego softening' typical of reported divine states, which combined with the hallucinogenic effects such temporal alterations may generate could create something profoundly spiritual. Off-topic, but a potential explanation for your experience nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
The clonazepam is prescribed 1mg 3x/day. Not really finding it euphoric, SWIM sticks to that amount, but has found that for such a seemingly benign substance it is quite a tricky little s.o.b. on the system.
Clonazepam is anything but benign. Doctors always seem to describe it (and other benzos) as such, but it's in fact a dangerous, physically addictive drug that rapidly loses effectiveness and can cause the most horrific and long-lasting withdrawal of virtually any drug that exists. Also, that's a gargantuan daily dose, especially for a benzo with such a long half-life. Even if you're not feeling euphoria, your brain is still changing in response to its administration - clonazepam addiction is mostly physical, but this aspect is so awful that it's still very difficult to get off the drug.

I'm not one to tell someone to get off their prescription meds, but I implore you to look into it a bit deeper, get a second opinion on it, and perhaps at least taper to a lower dose. Are you seeing a psychiatrist or a regular doctor? And if you don't mind me asking, what did you get it prescribed for? And how long have you been on it? Again a bit off-topic, but this is important. This goes far beyond its effect on kratom - it extends to your general well-being/mental health. I don't want to scare you, but I also don't want to leave you on the path to becoming an accidental addict. It can be very unfair how little information doctors give.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
If SWIM forgets to take it, it reminds him in most unpleasant little ways. So just how it plays in with Kratom withdraw is a bit of a mystery. The clonazepam has remained constant regardless of Kratom use. So SWIM doesn't know that the withdraw was so much an additive situation. SWIM has since experienced the withdraw to varying degrees, always in proportion to the Kratom use, or "session", and has finally found a balance that enables the enjoyment of Kratom without the excruciating events of before. Sometimes less is more, or all one needs, and SWIM doesn't overindulge on Kratom trying to chase something that's not going to happen.
The additive situation is quite possible. Clonazepam may be potentiating the kratom, leading to greater activation of the opioid system, and thus more downregulation of the mu-opioid receptors than would have occurred with kratom alone (this is all hypothetical). This would lead to the brain taking longer to restore homeostasis following use. That could explain the proportion of kratom use to later withdrawal issue. All that said, it could just be the kratom, and that you're sensitive to it.

Shwags' comment about the return of already present pain is an excellent point. To add to it, you could be experiencing painkiller rebound, where the pain the drug treats comes back with a vengeance after the drug is no longer masking it. This even happens with Tylenol and Advil, and it's somewhat of a different beast from withdrawal. As another possibility, you could be doing something to worsen the pain while you're not sensitive to it - that is, your body can't signal you to stop doing something that's hurting you.

Good to hear you've found a balance though .
  #9  
Old 25-06-2012, 23:54
krispy krispy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

I've come to realize what I've known all along, that the clonazepam needs to go. I can see friends surprised if not laughing about the idea of it. (I know, who says they have to know?)

Benzos are handy little tools for occasional use, but what was I expecting, to take them for the rest of my life? 'All mediocre things must come to an end', I guess.

I've got a lump in my throat at the thought of it, and more than a few of the signs and symptoms associated with much more serious matters I have faced in my life. Considering some of the obstacles I've overcome, this shouldn't be too bad.

Recommendations on dosage reduction? Whoops, I've taken us off topic here...

A piece of paper and sticking to a plan to taper should do the trick.
  #10  
Old 26-06-2012, 00:41
darkcharmer darkcharmer is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
I've come to realize what I've known all along, that the clonazepam needs to go. I can see friends surprised if not laughing about the idea of it. (I know, who says they have to know?)

Benzos are handy little tools for occasional use, but what was I expecting, to take them for the rest of my life? 'All mediocre things must come to an end', I guess.

I've got a lump in my throat at the thought of it, and more than a few of the signs and symptoms associated with much more serious matters I have faced in my life. Considering some of the obstacles I've overcome, this shouldn't be too bad.

Recommendations on dosage reduction? Whoops, I've taken us off topic here...

A piece of paper and sticking to a plan to taper should do the trick.
Honestly, don't worry yourself to death about it. The best advice for coming off benzos is that there's no such things as too slow. If you go off gradually enough, it will be a comparative walk in the park. I recommend liquid tapering to make it even slower - e.g. the brain doesn't know the difference between 2 grams of clonazepam and 1.995 grams of clonazepam.

How long have you been on it and for what condition? That also makes a difference.

I recommend checking out the Ashton manual:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/ (The page is too large and oddly formatted to post it here, so the link will have to do)

It has excellent advice on withdrawal from the benzos, based on research and clinical observation.

I'd personally suggest staying away from kratom while you go through it, to avoid shocking your system further, but YMMV, of course. L-theanine again should be helpful.

I wouldn't panic about this whole thing, many many people have withdrawn from the benzos without having their lives destroyed or anything of the sort. Just be careful and slow, and you should be fine. If withdrawal symptoms appear simply hold the dose steady and stop tapering until they go away.

Also, try to find a doctor who can help you with this - but ignore any who tell you to "just stop." That can cause a lot of damage.
  #11  
Old 27-06-2012, 22:49
Shwags Shwags is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
but has found that for such a seemingly benign substance it is quite a tricky little s.o.b. on the system. I
Key word being "seemingly." Benzos are not benign. Maybe they are benign if taken once every two weeks. Just like alcohol is benign when you drink 2 or 3 beers once a week. That doesn't mean it's an inherently benign substance, benzos are a BITCH!

Shwags added 7 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkcharmer View Post



Clonazepam is anything but benign. Doctors always seem to describe it (and other benzos) as such, but it's in fact a dangerous, physically addictive drug that rapidly loses effectiveness and can cause the most horrific and long-lasting withdrawal of virtually any drug that exists. .
Yeeppp. Been there; referring to the last part. Worst drug withdrawal known to man. THe doctor's I see know all these obvious facts about benzos, I seriously am concerned about the integrity of some other doctors that people see based on anecdotal info from friends/acquaintances and people's reports on this board. I experienced a week long withdrawal from xanax due to recreational abuse, none of my doctors would even consider prescribing me regular benzos daily for more than a week, although I do suffer from serious anxiety. What you said about rapidly losing effectiveness is also SO TRUE and I can't believe every doctor doesn't know that.

Shwags added 4 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkcharmer View Post
As another possibility, you could be doing something to worsen the pain while you're not sensitive to it - that is, your body can't signal you to stop doing something that's hurting you.
That is also a great point, as I am currently recovering from my 3rd major shoulder surgery and I know from experience that when I am heavily opiated, I will do PT like crazy and feel great about it, only later to realize that while I may have made some progress in my overall recovery, the acute pain that ensues once I am no longer opiated will be very severe due to not realizing my limits while the drug was masking the pain. That is exactly what opiates do, is MASK pain, they don't prevent the mechanisms that cause it from occurring.

Last edited by Shwags; 27-06-2012 at 22:49. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #12  
Old 28-06-2012, 00:35
krispy krispy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwags View Post
Key word being "seemingly." Benzos are not benign. Maybe they are benign if taken once every two weeks. Just like alcohol is benign when you drink 2 or 3 beers once a week. That doesn't mean it's an inherently benign substance, benzos are a BITCH!

Shwags added 7 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...



Yeeppp. Been there; referring to the last part. Worst drug withdrawal known to man. THe doctor's I see know all these obvious facts about benzos, I seriously am concerned about the integrity of some other doctors that people see based on anecdotal info from friends/acquaintances and people's reports on this board. I experienced a week long withdrawal from xanax due to recreational abuse, none of my doctors would even consider prescribing me regular benzos daily for more than a week, although I do suffer from serious anxiety. What you said about rapidly losing effectiveness is also SO TRUE and I can't believe every doctor doesn't know that.

Shwags added 4 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...



That is also a great point, as I am currently recovering from my 3rd major shoulder surgery and I know from experience that when I am heavily opiated, I will do PT like crazy and feel great about it, only later to realize that while I may have made some progress in my overall recovery, the acute pain that ensues once I am no longer opiated will be very severe due to not realizing my limits while the drug was masking the pain. That is exactly what opiates do, is MASK pain, they don't prevent the mechanisms that cause it from occurring.

Shwags,

Darkcharmer and I discussed this a little further, and I may do a thread covering my withdraw of clonazepam. Prior to the klonopin I took valium 40-80mgs/day for 15 years, so it's definitely going to be an experience. I'm already making excuses not to follow through (a new job prospect, for one, somehow necessarily means 'I'd better wait'). We'll see how it goes.
  #13  
Old 28-06-2012, 01:28
Shwags Shwags is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by krispy View Post
Shwags,

Darkcharmer and I discussed this a little further, and I may do a thread covering my withdraw of clonazepam. Prior to the klonopin I took valium 40-80mgs/day for 15 years, so it's definitely going to be an experience. I'm already making excuses not to follow through (a new job prospect, for one, somehow necessarily means 'I'd better wait'). We'll see how it goes.
That much diazepam every day for 15 years you say? Oh my god, sorry if I'm overly shocked but holy shit. I'm glad you are seeking the help and expertise on this board, definitely do as slow a taper as you possibly can, as was already described.

I had a hellish xanax withdrawal lasting 6-7 days, from just 2-3 months of daily use/abuse. Not to scare you but that kind of timeline of daily use, if you truly mean that (no extended breaks) is very , very serious and you should definitely consult a doctor that knows what the fuck is up when it comes to this kind of thing before you map it out. Best of luck.

Shwags added 2 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwags View Post
That much diazepam every day for 15 years you say? Oh my god, sorry if I'm overly shocked but holy shit. I'm glad you are seeking the help and expertise on this board, definitely do as slow a taper as you possibly can, as was already described.

I had a hellish xanax withdrawal lasting 6-7 days, from just 2-3 months of daily use/abuse. Not to scare you but that kind of timeline of daily use, if you truly mean that (no extended breaks) is very , very serious and you should definitely consult a doctor that knows what the fuck is up when it comes to this kind of thing before you map it out. Best of luck.
And when I say consult a doctor I mean that shit. A good one, if you were to go cold turkey all of a sudden at this moment, I'd say there is a reasonable chance you would die.

Last edited by Shwags; 28-06-2012 at 01:28. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
  #14  
Old 28-06-2012, 02:35
krispy krispy is offline
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Re: Kratom toxicity or withdrawal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwags View Post
That much diazepam every day for 15 years you say? Oh my god, sorry if I'm overly shocked but holy shit. I'm glad you are seeking the help and expertise on this board, definitely do as slow a taper as you possibly can, as was already described.

I had a hellish xanax withdrawal lasting 6-7 days, from just 2-3 months of daily use/abuse. Not to scare you but that kind of timeline of daily use, if you truly mean that (no extended breaks) is very , very serious and you should definitely consult a doctor that knows what the fuck is up when it comes to this kind of thing before you map it out. Best of luck.

Shwags added 2 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...



And when I say consult a doctor I mean that shit. A good one, if you were to go cold turkey all of a sudden at this moment, I'd say there is a reasonable chance you would die.
Yes, I had a Dr. Feelgood for 18 years, and it reached a point where I would basically just tell him what to prescribe. Limited opioids (he was in trouble himself for that), but for all intents and purposes unlimited benzos, and enough dexedrine spansules to never sleep. I looked like...well basically translucent. SWIM flipped things around for me, and I actually had a pretty "good" (looking back on it, it sucked) little thing going. Anyway, he retired 3 years ago, and I got in with a shrink who's actually pretty cool, but no dope fiend.

But honestly, I don't know how I'm going to quit benzos. It occurs to me that that doctor phucked up a good chunk of my life. He deserves some accountability in this. Here I was viewing it as a favor, and him as practically a god. I'm just now just this freakin moment starting to recognize his rx favors were not.

The benzos are so engrained in how I live and what I do. I only occasionally take two at once, now, which is a huge improvement. In the past chewing up 60mgs of dexedrine with 30mg valium was like smoking a cigarette.

I'm gonna have to put some thought into this.

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