Poll: Do psychedelics help to make users better people?

[Euphoric]

Do you think psychedelics help to make users better people? Just wondering, because I have known people to remark that psychedelics make them more understanding/empathetic/selfless. I have heard people say: "if only <insert powerful leader's name here> would take shrooms, they wouldn't do all those terrible things." But SWIM knows people who have used psychedelics who are assholes. So, my vote is no. What do others think?

[Lethargy]

We feel that psychedelics have a chance to promote greater scope, clarity and depth of perception. This does not in any way imply that a given individual will think about the world around hir on or after a psychedelic experience. Introspective and/or observant people have a greater chance of coming back from such a journey with a significant chunk of introspection and/or observation but this amount will exist in a manner proportional to the amount garnered from ordinary (non-psychedelic) life experiences.

We've spoken to very intelligent people who had never needed to think "outside the box" and said people got a lot from psychedelics. We've spoken to very dull, superficial people and said people "tripped balls" on psychedelics and saw some "freaky shit" but did not communicate any special insights (We don't count "MAN, the fridge was all starin at me an stuff, it could SEE me!" unless said individual thinks about how a fridge could in some form actually see them).

Much like showing someone a bunch of paints and canvas will not make them an artist without artistic inclination, showing someone the psychedelic world will not give them anything life-changing unless they have the inclination to change.

[kaczynski]

It totally depends. Better person? Probably not the majority of the time. But I guess it depends on what you mean by "better." If you mean an improved person, as in, someone with a different perspective, then I'm sure that's the case alot. SWIM has experienced this himself. SWIM has also had many trips where he wasn't changed at all, and just sort of explored the effects of the drug.

[crackcityrocker]

swim has known too many people that do acid that are shady and mean to say that psychedelics make a person better (or happier, or more insightful). some users will only take a drug to get fucked up, nothing will change that.

[Nature Boy]

What is meant by a better person anyway? I assume you mean becoming more humane and empathetic towards your fellow man but bettering oneself can also be considered in a material sense i.e. becoming more successful, earning more money etc.

Either way, I'm going to have to say no.

[Euphoric]

Yeah, human and empathetic sounds about right for better person.

[RaverHippie]

At the least it will dispel any stereotypes and give a breadth of understanding to the person. For that a yes vote.

[SomebodyAfar]

But I have a question that I don't know where to put, and, as most people say LSD and Shrooms(I think there great for kicks), have changed their life most, I feel it relevant to put here.

Ok, so what is everyones view on the idea that Phycadelics only allow people to think that their mind has been opened, to discover and enjoy new, and old things in life. People who, as it has been but before, think their opening their mind for $XXXX a tab of acid. If taken, does it not feel deluding yourself into believing something that, without them, you couldnt possiblly feel. Ok, so has this idea occrured to anyone; and whoever would like to point me to the right forum......

[[éS]Infinite]

SWIM feels that it is not that they DO make one a better individual (in the sense that they integrate more "positive" features into their lives) but they have the potential to do so, while they also have the potential to make one colder. Psychedelics generally place an individual through a pattern of transitions, and such transitions often include viewing the "negative" aspects of life. If a "bad trip" does take place, one may feel he or she is isolated, and may stop seeing a "point" in living if they realize something like "life is inherently pointless". While they are not uncommon, psychedelics do also generate the thought processes which promote creative thinking. As such, one may be able to simply think of an answer to resolve any "negative" thoughts.
SWIM feels that psychedelics make one a better or worse individual, just as living life does. However they do aid in revealing to one that the "positives" and "negatives" are the same, in that one would not be without the other.

[EntheogenicTruth]

swim has discovered that it usually gives the user more introspective thought and thus provides them with not only the means but the motivation to better themselves with various things, lifestyle change, change in perception of different things etc. however psychedelic introspection is only useful to someone that is prepared to use it.
psychedelics are tools, fun tools.
Swim would say that using psychedelics to better oneself is like breaking down a wall to oneself. the drug is one specific tool to do so. the same introspection can still be reached through other means.

[Strangeness]

The question itself is a bit vague. Can responsible use of psychedelics make someone a 'better' (meaning 'understanding/empathetic/selfless') person? Of course. Does such use always do so? Certainly not. On that basis alone, my vote is no.

That being said, many people SWIM knows are probably 'better' people now compared to before they ventured into psychedelics. What's interesting is that most of them venture there almost purely for the recreational aspect.

Then again, SWIM feels that irresponsible use goes the opposite way... specifically into becoming 'permafried'... i.e. most definitely not a better human being.

[stoneinfocus]

to those who said "no" and then explained, that it could be of use should rather have put theier cross to "other".

Even if the person took a psychedelic, he´s a "better" humen in the sense, that h tried something new, even those, just trying ot get something recreational out of it, could profit from it, when they´d look back few years later and think about the experience, cause it always enhances the status quo and provides alternative views..

this being said, it´s yes, for sure, but swim voted for "other" as this is a bit too polarasing question and a simple yes can always be exstinguished by a simple "no" of oponents, so there´s no basis for providing a discussion that not most likely ends in the same polarisation of yes and no.

[TMM]

Users have the ability to instill in themselves the qualities or personality which they value. Some may find it easier to do this while under the influence of certain drugs. I certainly wouldn't refer to these drugs in anything but a passive sense.

[stoneinfocus]

Users have the ability to instill in themselves the qualities or personality which they value. Some may find it easier to do this while under the influence of certain drugs. I certainly wouldn't refer to these drugs in anything but a passive sense.I beg your pardon?! Altering the state of mind and the way it works is probably the most active way anything in the universe can influence the free will and give access to a self-inspired change of mind.

thre´s no wonder drug one can take in and is a whole new human being.

but these psychedelics as means are the clostest as one can get and are a wonder, at least to swim, who can and makes use of the benefits.

[podge]

Psychedelics CAN help people improve the quality of their lives... Nothing is guaranteed. Their are things which can be done to improve the chances of having a beneficial experience but thats as good as it gets.

[stoneinfocus]

Obtaining another point of view is beneficial in general, and this has nothing to do on how "pleasant" the trip was and how "groovy" the setting was, in addition to the unique mindalteration of a trip, which can´t be had without it, it´s a completely new experience, which one uniquely experiences by taking a trip...

So, if it´s experience, what makes a "better" human, then it can well be said, that psychedelic do make a bettter human.
So my point would be "yes", but as stated before, it´s "other".

[TMM]

I beg your pardon?! Altering the state of mind and the way it works is probably the most active way anything in the universe can influence the free will and give access to a self-inspired change of mind.
Perhaps I should clarify. The active decision leading to this altered state was taken by the person. The decisions and conclusions of the experience all stem from that person's psyche. The psychedelic is just a tool some use to point themselves in a different direction - of course there is no 'right' direction. As such, I think it makes more sense to say 'the psychedelic is being used to do something' than 'the psychedelic is doing something'. Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'

[stoneinfocus]

I´d say it does, as most conscious decisiontaking is untangled by the psychedelic, i.e. you can´t control yourself, not having hallucinations or synaethesisa, which is to me the point of saying, it´s unique and it does stem not only from the personality and the decision of taking something upfront.

It stems from the alteration of the mind, the way of processing the past and the present on the basis of the individual´s experiences, the `usual way´ .

The psychedelic mean will lead these impressions to be adapted to brainregions that usually don´t process them and thus unlock them, to from any abstract and streched processing of these impressions possible in this person and essentially making them new ones out of the already existing impression.

It´s not likedrinking and loosing some barriers by getting stupid or taking anti-depressants or depressants to select/deselect favourable/ unfavourable aspects of the personality and ways of processing things...
-it confronts the user with all sides of his personality <->and all sides of the personality with nearly all different kinds of processing and this is what is meant to be dangerous by the opponents, as it´s not the commercial "Giving you and know what you get <-> and get what you expect-scenario", hell, one has to find words, pictures and sounds to express a psychedelic experience even for months and years after and these don´t even come close, while usual non-psych medication´s actions on the mind can be described by 250 words on one paper-sheet.

The change of mentality is actually the hallucination and it´s the mentality, being directed to other locations of the brain.
To me, this is a big deal, just because it´s abstract, it doesn´t mean, that it´s not the unique mentality of yours anymore, it really is being spread out onto new regions of exploration, by action of the psychedelic, thus, it stems from both(maybe some might not like to see their mentality and personality being "degraded" to a hallucination , or an abstract, by a certrain loco of their brain, but by doing so, one gets rid of the most beneficial side of an psychedelic experience it can do to the conscious mind, during and for a long time after the action has ceased, th eunconciousness will have profited for sure out of this and itßs now the way th econciousness handles these added values to the unconcious, coming to surface)

[Jatelka]

Whether it makes them "better" or not, there do seem to be differences between psychedelic users and non.

See here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=jump&id=1462&catid=68

[TMM]

It´s not likedrinking and loosing some barriers by getting stupid or taking anti-depressants or depressants to select/deselect favourable/ unfavourable aspects of the personality and ways of processing things...
-it confronts the user with all sides of his personality
I don't agree with this. That's not what it does, that's what some people interpret it as doing. Obviously, it's very hard to talk about things such as change in personality, since such complex psychological notions are constantly evolving and always different anyway. The difference between psychedelics and most other psychoactives, perhaps, is that the changes they elicit in the brain are so completely abnormal that, at high enough doses, the user may be forced to wade through their psyche in order to make sense of the signals being given to them. This is more likely to lead to long-term change, but is not a direct cause.

I think we've reached an impasse, in that we're not really talking about the same thing anymore. Truce? :)

[psyche]

I voted for yes, because, as said above it can have that impact. The question 'do psychedelics make users better people' is bold in the way it implies that the psychedelics are something that actively makes something to human being, it doesn't encourage to answer yes.

Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'Even though it is actively affecting the brain, it is not directly causing any tangible change in high-level mentality that could be interpreted as aspects of 'personality.'

The psychedelic mean will lead these impressions to be adapted to brainregions that usually don´t process them and thus unlock them, to from any abstract and streched processing of these impressions possible in this person and essentially making them new ones out of the already existing impression.


^If this is an argument about how much the psychedelics affect the personality on a brain-level, then you need to present much, much more details.

TMM propably meant that what actually alters your personality is encoded rather in the experience one has than the molecule itself. So while it needs both the experience and a drug(psychedelic) to happen, I'd say the change of personality is rather in the experience if I needed to choose.

[stoneinfocus]

It´s just that TMM is denying any effect of psychedelics in the sense, that means "if you don´t work it out yourself, it´s not doing anything and your personality is not changed.

This is not true. Has TMM taken psychedelics? And more often than once, so he could think about the last trip and tries to get more out of anotherone, the next time he finished one?-This is important, most people must get used to and feel familiar to a drug´s effect, so they can actually realize it better, without being surprised by it and what it might be good for; -so the next time, they will actually separate from tripping and working things out afterwards, or, in another case, use coke´s effects for creativity or relaxation, when they´re getting used to the different aspects of the drug itself.

Psychedelics use the mind, they take it apart and to other functional modules of the brain, without one having the chance of controlling where this will be(from the temporal lobe to maybe the hearing-locus of the brain) and without knowing the effects, that these info causes in these brain-regions or without knowing, what it causes to these brain-regions.

If -say- information from the temporal lobe, where your aggression, empathy and personal means of dealing with it is located, went into another part of the brain, than the temporal lobe might make you feel a time-shift and the emotions and the neuron´s electrical pattern of the temporalis(your matrix for processing/dealing with things), -now being led to the acoustic locus, by the action of the drug- will cause an effect, prob. some sort of hallucination, ...or same scenario for -say- the optical region: you might see pictures, that are being elicited from the emotion, aggression and rationality which is comprimated in these neurons-derived electrical pattern-matrix of the temporalis, noe being sent to this region and it will process them by the best way and to the outmost possibilities the optical region has to offer(like leading a stream of water from the river to a field watering system, the H20 and waves/tides will have then different effects as in the river, where it´s just flowing in the usual way downstreams and will effect the river itself), probably causing a deeper blue a more intense orange-yellow or pink to the incoming sensory signals and autonomous hallucinations, visions, caused by the foreing brain-signals, like seeing things that are not derived from electrical signals of the optical nerve, caleidoscopes, when eyes are closed and, in return, this temporalis matrix will change the optical vision/view by -say- seeing a glass-plate effect in one´s vision, shape-shiftings or symmetrical patterns, which will reflect the way of dealing of the temporalis´s informationpart, intermixed with the "mechanics" of the optical brain region, calculating the optical nerve signaling.
This is an abstract. This can be reviewed after the trip conciously, as an emotion and a pattern of logic procession, expressed by these hallucination, as a picture, which reveals your mind and your mind reveals to you and with your mind, you see this revelation, which holds more information, than actually the colours and lines on their own, or more, than just seeing a painted house, you "see" the ambition of an artist, you see the mechanics of the work and why he used this technique to express it, as you see it, you see, it´s in you, too, the moment, you look at it and know, what the artist tried to express, yet being unable to derive its logical foundation, though, it´s there, -like thousands of people will make a wave in the stadion or people scream at a 1000th of a second simultaniously when dancing, for no obvious reason, yet being perfectly in unison and sharing the same of feelings, mechanisms and effects and reactions to this phenomenone and are afterwards probably happier and more relaxed and will try seeking these benefis by application of the experience to their own and others lifes.

Interestingly and this is very advantageously, the picture of a temporalis-derived, optical brain-region-induced hallucination (take it farther to a whole body feeling and thoughts during these moments), has no concious limitiations the way your temporalis would automatically incorporate into it, like experienced fear, regrets, loathing of something, it´s a psycholgical hybride of great potency, if one thinks about it afterwards, or even by just experiencing it and letting the experience root and spread.

So getting back to TM opinion, it won´t cause an peronality-change in the sense of a "whole new person" immediate result, but it does do so, as all experiences do, which are more-or less-meaningful -and concerning the aspects and the nature of a psychedelic trip, directly dealing with a person´s mentality, which is a great part of his personality (you can´t divide 1+1=2 by saying I chose 1+1 and it´s not an addition result in the end) it will more-or-less change the person´s mentality and personality in the end.

[drab4]

What is meant by a better person anyway? I assume you mean becoming more humane and empathetic towards your fellow man but bettering oneself can also be considered in a material sense i.e. becoming more successful, earning more money etc.

Either way, I'm going to have to say no.
This post covers all that I was going to say

As a vaguely related aside though, there was a period over much of the 90s in the UK where mdma use was extremely common. This period coincided with lower levels of violence and "hooliganism" than are normal in the UK. Those times are over now though. My point here is that use of some drugs, when commonplace, can influence society. At least for a time

Perhaps other UK members will disagree with me on this, but that was certainly my perception at the time anyway

[TMM]

It´s just that TMM is denying any effect of psychedelics in the sense, that means "if you don´t work it out yourself, it´s not doing anything and your personality is not changed.

This is not true. Has TMM taken psychedelics? And more often than once, so he could think about the last trip and tries to get more out of anotherone, the next time he finished one?This is important, most people must get used to and feel familiar to a drug´s effect, so they actually realize, what this effect actually is, without being surprised by it and what it might be good for, so the next time, they will actually separate from tripping and working things out afterwards, or use in another case, coke´s effects for creativity or relaxation, when they get used to it.

Psychedelics use the mind, they take it apart and to other functional modules of the brain, without one having the chance of controlling where this will be(from the temporal lobe to maybe the hearing-locus of the brain) and without knowing the effects, that these info causes in these brain-regions or without knowing, what it causes to these brain-regions.
I stand by my previous statements. SWIM has taken psychedelics several times, having a horrible experience and a particularly incredible one among these. SWIM honestly doesn't feel his personality has been fundamentally changed - although, having a penchant for philosophy, he hates to refer to personality as some kind of absolute thing - despite the power of these experiences, and if he had not painstakingly worked through one of these in the way that he did, happening to reach the 'conclusions' (so to speak) that he did, he would have been left simply with a few traumatic experiences, worthwhile but not life-changing.

Besides, psychedelics do not 'take apart' the brain, nor do they redirect anything within the brain. The molecule acts as a pseudo-neurotransmitter, binding to receptors in a way that mimics similar native neurotransmitters, producing vastly different perception as this is parsed within the brain.

As for the rest of your post, I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

EDIT: So getting back to TM opinion, it won´t cause an peronality-change in the sense of an whole new person, but it does do so, as all expereinces do, which are more-or less-meaningful and concerning the aspects and the nature of a psychedelic trip, directly dealing with a person´s mentality, which is a great part of his personality ( you can´t divide 1+1=2 by saying I chose 1+1 and it´s not an addition result in the end) it will more-or-less change the person´s metnality and personality in the end.
As you say, all experiences change you. Everything is what you make of it. That doesn't make psychedelics a special case in any way, or an active catalyst for change in a way that all other things are not.

[Deliverence]

I voted other, because I believe YES and NO
After a psychedelic trip or during, there are many many thoughts and perceptions a person can link to the drug and therefor decide whether it has been a positive experience or not. Some would say that it was life changing and there has made them a better person and this i think all depends on the person, because as opposed to a person who is very interested in the psychedelics family compared to a person who say got drugged with liquid LSD or another type of psychedelics. There trips and perceptions of the drug will be FAR different.

So YES in the right hands psychedelics can be a very powerful tool to harnest your mind, body and soul

but NO i don't believe it is that life changing and that "make a person better" for everyone

[stoneinfocus]

I stand by my previous statements. SWIM has taken psychedelics several times, having a horrible experience and a particularly incredible one among these. SWIM honestly doesn't feel his personality has been fundamentally changed - although, having a penchant for philosophy, he hates to refer to personality as some kind of absolute thing - despite the power of these experiences, and if he had not painstakingly worked through one of these in the way that he did, happening to reach the 'conclusions' (so to speak) that he did, he would have been left simply with a few traumatic experiences, worthwhile but not life-changing.

Besides, psychedelics do not 'take apart' the brain, nor do they redirect anything within the brain. The molecule acts as a pseudo-neurotransmitter, binding to receptors in a way that mimics similar native neurotransmitters, producing vastly different perception as this is parsed within the brain.

As for the rest of your post, I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

EDIT:
As you say, all experiences change you. Everything is what you make of it. That doesn't make psychedelics a special case in any way, or an active catalyst for change in a way that all other things are not.

Sorry to hear that swiTMM had bad eyxpriences with psychedelics, could he specify which substances he used for this?

The inofrmation, btw- is carried among the brain, as coupling to the muscarinic receptor and some kind of polarization of channels will lead to e.g. synaesthesia, like tasting a sound, seeing colours by the meaning of a word, or seeing musik (some people are born with this condition and they were interviewed and they were telling they thought everybody would see e.g. `Stop´ as red and different names of towns in different glowing colours).

It´s very rudimental view of personaltiy that you have, so to say...

To take apart was meant differently, more in an analytical sense, in seeing the point there is, is that theres´a lot more to it, than TMM makes it, mabye because he had not the best of experiences with it, but -was it the experience itself or the ways of unconcious and concoious manipulation, which was prevailing his life for getting through it (swim wonders how so many can close their eyes to so much suffering which is right the next door and even express truly fascisoid opinions as if they were democratic or humanly, it´s very bad times, we live in, just unrecognised or underestimated/ignored by most).. in swim it always was a great experience and the not so great one, was in fact a reflection of an -until then unrecognized- destruction of swims life, by his fellow members, society itself and his hiding from the truth, it just took some years to fix it, so it was in fact a great experience.

The only bad one, was a toxic mold within his shrooms -he says he wouldn´t (well, maybe he would?) wish this to be happenibng to his worst enemy, but this was his own fault, as he saw this mold but took it anyways, as the trip before of the fresh shroom was so great, so relaxing, calm and spiritual.

[TMM]

SIt´s very rudimental view of personaltiy that you have, so to say...
That's funny, because I don't recall ever outlining my views on personality. Perhaps you could give an alternative, clearer explanation than what you have read into my posts.

SWIM had unpleasant experiences with mescaline and cubensis mushrooms in particular, but that's not to say they weren't worthwhile or useful.

[Shampoo]

I think TMM and Stoneinfocus essentially agree (correct me if I am wrong) that an expansive array of experiences influences personal growth, and simply by virtue of expanding one's repertoire, they become a 'better' person.

all experiences change you. Everything is what you make of it. That doesn't make psychedelics a special case in any way, or an active catalyst for change in a way that all other things are not.

Precisely, but how many of the activities we pursue each day are new or expansive experiences? Psychedelics are no more a catalyst for experiential expansion than any other new experience. From reading a new book to skydiving, pogo-sticking or tripping, a new experience is a new experience and in my opinion, that makes a better person.


However, this seems to be in contrast to some evidence presented by Jatelka earlier in the thread.

Whether it makes them "better" or not, there do seem to be differences between psychedelic users and non.

See here...

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/l...=1462&catid=68

Fig. 1 and expansion shows that users of non-psychedelic drugs value spirituality, environment, creativity, and concern for others less than non-drug users, while psychedelic users seem to value these areas of life more highly than either. All drug users (both psychedelic and not) seem to value financial prosperity less than non-drug users. Perhaps behavioral predispositions take people to drugs more than drugs take people to behaviors, but this study is some interestingly evidential food for thought.

[stoneinfocus]

it´s the -more or less- denial of the fact, that psychedelics were not a key to pesonality and changes... first, which is a good argument and true statement, you don´t see personality as an absolute thing, but refuse to see parts of it, being altered by a trip as not very important, or as if it were the same thing as going to the restaurnat, having a diner.this is, what could be derived from your opinion, which, if true, would fail to recognise important aspects, if not all, a psychedelic trip means to one´s personality or psyche.

For example I could be a miserable, spoiled bad mooded idiot, even if I go to dine, I´d probaly stay the same, while on a trip one could feel the warmth and cosyness of his childhood again and the quite darkness of space lurking into one´s mind and essentially be paralyzed to an extend in which the own ego hardly exists anymore.

Didn´t see Shampoos post as I typed this...this is really intersting and its´even for me hard to expell emotional and subjective values from the last sentence, but I think, what if these people, caring more about humans adn exploration of the human self are attrackted to these drugs, because they think it were a tool to take it to another step adn in return get what their predispostion was? this would render the antidrug campaigns even more un-humanly and in fact, they were found mainly to have some laws against the cultural alternatives of the youth.So to say, is conservatism unhumanly and taking drugs humanly.

[~lostgurl~]

This post covers all that I was going to say

As a vaguely related aside though, there was a period over much of the 90s in the UK where mdma use was extremely common. This period coincided with lower levels of violence and "hooliganism" than are normal in the UK. Those times are over now though. My point here is that use of some drugs, when commonplace, can influence society. At least for a time

Perhaps other UK members will disagree with me on this, but that was certainly my perception at the time anyway


I couldn't agree more, see a thread I started awhile back on this: Changing Times (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36849) My gurl doesn't take psychedelics, but MDMA certainly influenced her in many ways from how she looks at herself and a future for herself to how she judges the world around her, and for her these changes in thoughts and ideas did not leave when the high did, though for a large part of society this seems true.

[TMM]

it´s the -more or less- denial of the fact, that psychedelics were not a key to pesonality and changes... first, which is a good argument and true statement, you don´t see personality as an absolute thing, but refuse to see parts of it, being altered by a trip as not very important, or as if it were the same thing as going to the restaurnat, having a diner.this is, what could be derived from your opinion, which, if true, would fail to recognise important aspects, if not all, a psychedelic trip means to one´s personality or psyche.
Alright, I think I see where you're coming from now. I did say that psychedelic activity in the brain is an experience that is more likely to change a person than most other experiences, obviously far more likely than going to dinner, because of the way it acts. But I think it ranks up there with other extreme experiences, and is in no way separate from them. For example, if someone has a near death experience and converts to Christianity as a result of it, or perhaps someone being driven to extreme PTSD from seeing terrible things in war. Obviously these powerful experiences, even ones that don't have immediate consequences or obvious changes in composite personality, will leave marks on the psyche, but there is nothing inherent special or unique about those gained psychedelically (it's fun to make up words).

I think we're treading similar ground with different word games, and our (perhaps purposely) complicated dialogue isn't helping matters. We've both got our points across, and the impasse is not breached. Such is life. :)

As for becoming a 'better' person, a point I never really addressed, I don't really have much to say, since I don't believe in any kind of inherent 'quality.' Everything is as it is. Not good, or bad, just itself.

N.B. Wait, damn, apparently 'psychedelically' is a word. :)

[jilola]

Psychedelics reveal what is there. If an arsehole takes LSD the negative personality traits will be amplified. The arsehole may become a better person in the sense that (s)he is fully aware of the fact and still chooses to remain an arsehole.

[stoneinfocus]

Yes, but we have to find and defien a good and bad for the things that are just iself... we could agree, that probalby drinking 96%H2SO4 is bad for you, though H2SO4 is just itself. *lol*

You´re being nihilistic. ;-)

Swim just pointed out various ways and deatails of the human psyche working, even a three-layered concious, unconcious, overconcious mind-system thesis and a hypothetical influence of psychedelics on it and then, argh, here´we go.

We could agreee that taking shrooms or having a LSD trip is probalbly doing less harm, than the slaughter at war and PTSD? PTSD is a conscious experience, that provokes chemical changes in the CNS to different situations of live, whilst a trip just might provide a new way of seeing things and giving new approaches, leaving overly harmful stress-hormones fucking with your CNS/ and unappropiate hormone-relase to allday routine alone, while doing so, in conctrast to feeling the rage of war 24/7 infinitly. ;)

[TMM]

Yes, but we have to find and defien a good and bad for the things that are just iself... we could agree, that probalby drinking 96%H2SO4 is bad for you, though H2SO4 is just itself. *lol*

You´re being nihilistic. ;-)
Indeed, lol, that's not how I view the world in a practical sense, but I find truth in it nonetheless.

We could agreee that taking shrooms or having a LSD trip is probalbly doing less harm, than the slaughter at war and PTSD? PTSD is a conscious experience, that provokes chemical changes in the CNS to different situations of live, whilst a trip just might provide a new way of seeing things and giving new approaches, leaving overly harmful stress-hormones fucking with your CNS/ and unappropiate hormone-relase to allday routine alone, while doing so, in conctrast to feeling the rage of war 24/7 infinitly. ;)
Yeah, my examples were a bit excessive.

[Tick]

psychedelics give you the experience and where-with-all to have greater insight, what each person does with it/during it is entirely up to them and their individual outcome is the result.

[stoneinfocus]

Does the nearby techno youth culture infulence others in the long run to the positive even when they´re not part of it, just by being the living example of another positive life(style?)?

Why, better shoot them^^

[Tick]

They would probably influence them in one way or another depending on the person's views of that culture. It could either reinforce certain beliefs, expose them to new ones if they are willing or simply be cataloged in that person's life perspective.

[allyourbase]

other: "better" is a matter of subjectional judgement, the "better" person wouldnt make such judgements.

[stoneinfocus]

One would need to sort out what better means .., in nature, as in an scientifical procedure of observation theorme with 3rd party verification possibilty, one could, e.g., see, that diversity is in any society superiorover a system which does not possess diversity: insect-states are a good example ... there´re worker bees, drones, soldier-bees, the queen and some do various things, triggered by different smells of their enviroment.
So a techno-culture guy, working in his job as a "different smell", with one who is conservative might triggered by this diverse cultural influence adn probably both will gain other qualities, like info over techno/definign conservatism in another more rudimental way, finding new songs he likes, as such, gaining more diversity, more perspectives etc. If this is what´s one making happy (learning, going forward)or not, is -no, infact it´s not- difficult to explain by a scientifitc view, because, though it´s proovable, that it might be statistically signifcant that learning and making new experiences makes one happy, the opposite, the ascete might argue from of his point of view, that diverstiy -in his case, gaining more insight, by doing/achieving/requiring/possesing not more, but less things- is not what he´s seeking, but an ascete is only an ascete in a surrounding of diversity and he himself is creating diversity with his ascetic relationship to his sorroundings.If he there were nothing to ignore and he were not able to deicide against taking part of them, he´d be no longer an ascete but the avarage guy, using all the left diversity of his enviroment. q.e.d.

It´s strange how mathematical philosophie can describe such things bullet-proof, whithin the model of considering micro- and makrocosms.

[cra$h]

wow that was hard to read. no offense, actually if there was offense, it would be put on me for barely being able to read at swiy's level. anyways.... swim voted yes, but it's used generally. swim see's the drug community as those who use to learn and experience, and the rest just want to get fucked up. for the most part, psychedelics appeal to open minded people, who want to experience, while something like cocaine for example is good for just getting fucked up (i'm not knockin coke though). and through the use of these psychedelics people find revelations about themselves, and even the world. people can even learn on a subliminal level. after experiencing a hard trip, one could learn tolerance, and can become a more optomistic person, especially after a bad trip, since they've learned there could be worse. for more clairty, swim's definition of better, in this case, is a more wise, understanding person who can let things be, but isn't afraid to enlighten people.

[stoneinfocus]

I apologize, it was a messy thread and I´m an editing bitch. Try it out now, at least to me, it´s now more comprehensive.

Polarising: Psychedelics are altering one´s perception, which is bad and against the nature, which made us the way we are and thus, the way we see things naturally, without drugs, are the optimum.
Theses drugs create a degenerate state of the mind and the brain functioning, which is not desireable.

Everyone, who is deciding to gain other perpsectives, by taking psychedelics, is violating and doing harm to his nature and his body and his mind. As such, making psychedelics illegal is an ethical prerogative and punishment should be carried out against those taking, selling, advertising the use of, or are producing psychedelics, to threaten others, so there´s not more harm being done to all, who are and might be negatively influenced by this drug or decide taking such a drug or to stop the use of these drugs in already existing users and extinguish sale, production and information, which is not concerned to the risks of these drugs only.

To cut it short: Psychedelics are useless, have no value whatsoever and should be prohibited.

PS: I wanted to vote yes, because of sarcasm, or was it paranoia! Don´t no know.

[Tick]

To cut it short: Psychedelics are useless, have no value whatsoever and should be prohibited.



interesting opinion. other people would beg to differ on the point that they are useless. that some chemicals have been, or are being researched in the possible treatment of psychological disorders would lend some use to psychedelics.

[doggy_hat]

It completely depends on the user.

A person who simply takes psychedelics for the purpose of getting fucked up and hallucinating will gain nothing. But if a somewhat intelligent person takes a psychedelic it can take them on a journey and completely change their life. You can experience so many things that are otherwise impossible. psychedelics are like keys that open up new doors in your mind, but it's up to the user to unlock those doors.

[stoneinfocus]

Definately, you can´t say, they had no effect on even the dumbest user, and who is to say, those users didn´t gain a thing from taking psychedlics just for gettin fucked? Impossible imho.Hell, even swim gained a lot from them.

[Heretic.Ape.]

I've voted other. It is possible to have profound experiences that change the way one views life, themselves, others and how it all relates in very positive ways. The potential therapeutic value of psychedelics have been amply extolled and evidenced by various psychologists. However, there are more people in my experience who get no such thing out of the psychedelic experience, rather coming away with only stories of "wow I saw fucking giant snakes and dancing trees!" to go on with life-as-usual, and even a great deal of people who are actually harmed by getting carried away in psychedelic la-la-land and losing touch with reality to their detriment (I'm sure many of swimmers have known such people or even been one at some point in their lives--monkey's been all three).
So, in short, my "other" is: it depends on who you are, where you're at in your life, and how you use them.

[Panthers007]

I'd say it's rather like penicillin. Someone takes a single tablet of penicillin for no particular reason, and reports nothing. Or maybe they are allergic and go into anaphylactic shock (rare but real bad). Then, someone with guidance, takes the course and it saves their life. This is not a perfect analogy, of course. But I think it gets the point across.

Psychedelics can have profoundly life-changing qualities for a person who is properly prepared and is not walking in blind. I also think the question is incorrectly phrased. Perhaps I would ask: Can psychedelics help people realize unknown potentials within themselves?

So I'll vote "other" as well.

[podge]

Perhaps the poll might might reflect reality a bit more if it was changed to :

"have psychedelics made swiy a better person ?"

Asking does it make everyone better is too general.

[Heretic.Ape.]

^ Perhaps you should start such a poll...

[mr.stark]

This is a much more in-depth question than giving a simple 'yes' or 'no'. Something tells me if someone slipped some Ecstacy into hitler's Mug of Power he wouldn't have been a Hippie by the year 1945, but you've gotta admit if you toy around with the idea some positive visuals are bound to come...