Insight on the human condition: everyone's delusional

[bcubed]

Sorry, here's the big theory of human behavoir, in all its misanthropic splendour:

Humans, like all thinking animals, have had their brains wired by the iron dictates of natural selection. Specifically, the brain is set up to reward such behavior that ensures survival and propagation, which is why the urges for food, sex, and avoidance of pain are so great. It is the reinforcement of this trait over untold generations that has made it so powerful, and why addiction (which is essentially a peversion of the "reward-seeking" drive) is so hard to break: even with full knowledge of these mechanisms, the reward drive typically trumps the rational brain, given sufficient time.

Social norms, mores, and laws are necessary whenever humans (or any social animals) live together: if each person was free to do anything at all to further his or her individual benefit, there'd be no collaboration and society wouldn't function.

Outside of fear of retribution, the conscience is what restrains behavior and is held up as "what differentiates us from animals." (Religious types would mention the soul, of which the consciense is a tangible manifestation.) Here's the sordid truth: this is a construct of artifice and subservient to the reward drive. Whenever (either singularly or as a society) morals clash with this drive, the morals are virtually wholly malleable to the service of singular or group interest. History is replete with examples of how, if group A has something group B wants, and B has superiority of strength, group B will take it and not care particularly what means are needed. It seems that the only societies that haven't done this are those that haven't been a position of dominance over another.

But here's the kicker: because people desire to feel good about themselves, not only will they do what they have to in order to satisfy their drives, they'll delude themselves into feeling that their behavoir is consistent with whatever morals resist bending, or that some sort of execption to the rule is justified. I'm sure Hitler died thinking he was basically a good guy, a misunderstood landscape painter or whatever...

Imagine a wholly accurate view of the inherent trade-offs involved in daily living! "Well, I could drive home to Ma's for Christmas, but the incremental enviornmental damage billions of people in subsequent generations will inherit would exceed whatever utility I'd derive from it" or "Well, a family of four in Calcutta could have been fed today, but--damn it--I needed to rent a tux for Dave's wedding!" I'd never seriously think like this, but I "should," if I'm a rational human being who wants to live consistent with my morals. The few people who even attempt such accounting are generally sad sacks that no-one wants to be around.

So, if you ever hear, "How could someone sink so low?" or "Who would have thought him capable of murder?" understand that, given the appropriate incentives, virtually anyone would.

Feel free to tell me what a misguided cynic I am...it'd make me happy to be proven wrong, though I doubt that'll happen.

[TMM]

Morality is also something we've invented to make us feel better about ourselves. Sometimes the happiness derived from living by our own personal moral standards outweighs the happiness derived from doing whatever the hell we want whenever we want to, and sometimes it doesn't. Hence the conflict.

[psyche]

For some time I was depressed because of this sort of worldview, but not anymore. I agree about the morality being a great hoax, and I think I've never felt that the majority's opinion is the absolute moral. I also agree that people are drove animals that seek the acceptance of the group. But I would call it an delusion or illusion. And people feel some sort of unity with other so they might actually be thinking the best of others too. There's a thing called empaty, which might be a bit underrated in nowadays capitalistic society and the evolutionary viewpoint more on the surface.

I'm too tired to try and explain my point of view about why living by what you feel more than trying to rationally control your life isn't an illusion. But here's quite an interesting thread, and there I had a conversation about life being an illusion, so check it out if you want to know why would I think this way: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...t=43950&page=2

[LookingForHer]

The only cynical thing about this sort of thinking, is not believing that there is a better way to be. And that there aren't already others living in that better way, even if they are living that way on other planets...

I personally believe, that there are many habitable planets in the Universe. And that what we think of as "The Universe" is just a smaller visible part of a multi-dimensional greater universe, that is truely infinite.

I believe that Earth is the lowest point in the Universe that is "worth saving".

There are worse places, but they'll be destroyed.

There are better places than Earth, however. And they should be our inspiration. If only we didn't attack those who talk about them.

Earth is really a crappy planet, full of nasty insane ignorant liars. It is set to self-destroy, in an attempt to cleanse itself of the insanity that humans create. However, for Earth to cleanse itself of humans, a particularly adaptive kind of cancer, requires external help. Really the only way for Earth to be saved is for good aliens to come and kill the nastier of the humans.

I only hope I live through the self-destruction.

Humans could find another way to save themselves from self-destruction. But I just feel it's too late. Too far away. If we had created the technology for a logic-processor, an AI based on logic, we could have done it. The AI would heal people's minds, break their lies, bring justice, transform the cancerous insane humans back into just another part of the ecosystem.

I just don't think there is the time left. The Logic AI is so far away from being made. No attempts have been made to make it. No one understands or listens that this thing is necessary. No one helps or gives encouragement. No one does a thing. Just the usual hypocrisy, lies, mocking and ridiculing.

The only thing left is for the aliens to come and cleanse earth of liars.

[psyche]

It is propable that there are other and better civilizations on other planets, even inevitable if you suppose universe is infinite. But what good is it aknowledging that if we don't know how to learn from them? I think it is cynical to compare our world to another world where things might be better if nothing practical can be drawn from that concept to improve our lives. If you constantly concentrate on things that could be better, then you live in a world where things are constantly under the standard of the world in your mind. Why not set your mind to how things are in this world, and then seeing what is wrong and what we could do about it. It doesn't mean that if somewhere out there things are better off we should live in despair about how bad things are for us. Isn't it also as accurate a picture of our world if we compare it to some third world country where you have to fight for your living and you are thankful of every piece of food you earn by working your ass off all day long? And that is definately a real world, not that it would matter does the other worlds exist, other than that we can't learn anything from supposed other planets' civilization.

[wellhelm]

I too think morality is subjective, or at least to claim that morality is objective is wrong, you would have to be independent of subjective perception to do so....


I agree, when making a decision we will decide on the result that best benefits our reward drive. "Moral" decisions are made in the same way.. Not only would morality in this light seem irrelevant but it is subjective which sux, anything could be justified. Also some freewill stuff I won't go into.

Thoughts like these usually lead me to an almost nihilistic way of thinking and momentary depression. It leads me down the road to thoughts that we are also not our reward drive and chemical brain process but a result of it and this result is changed in one instant to the next changing who we are in one instant to the next and leaving the previous self non-existent and the perception of this instant is diminished, lessened, pointless, blah, blah, blah...

[LookingForHer]

Originally Posted by psyche

It is propable that there are other and better civilizations on other planets, even inevitable if you suppose universe is infinite. But what good is it aknowledging that if we don't know how to learn from them?

Perspective. It's all about perspective. It's not about learning from them, it's about perspective that lets you learn about yourself.

I explained it already. If you think "it has to be this way", then we are all screwed. Reality would be broken and the universe permanently insane like a crashed buggy computer.

If you don't want to accept that broken version of reality, then the only way for it to make sense is if there is ANOTHER place where there are good beings. Beings better than you. Perhaps mortal, and vulnerable, but definitely able to play the hero's role and so in the end, never lose to what is wrong. Beings who don't cause wars, or lie, or corrupt, or support those who are corrupted, or stand by as everything goes to hell. Beings who do so many things better it boggles your mind. Like a race where everyone has the mentality of Doctor Who

I think it is cynical to compare our world to another world where things might be better if nothing practical can be drawn from that concept to improve our lives.

Sounds like you want to do things the tired old way, of "I just want someone to give me the answers, all I want is a set of instructions to blindly follow, no matter what kind of an asshole I am as a person, and those instructions should make everything right, not me"

It doesn't work. It just doesn't work.

The only way to make things better to is self-realise. Realise who you are. If you are a bad person, realise that you are a bad person, and that there are better people, perhaps most people in the Universe are better even if very few are on Earth. And feel shame for Earth's population with respect to how low Earth is compared to the rest of the Universe.

Once you realise your place, you can try to improve your place. Only by accepting the shame, can you improve and become a better being.

If you want simple instructions to blindly follow... well the instructions won't be whatever instructions good beings on a good planet would use. You'd need instruyctions suited to you.

On the whole, I think if humanity put it's effort in making an open sourced AI based on logic, or at least prayed that those who have the clear vision to make it would get all the support they need in life, as it is a massive undertaking, requiring a team that must spend so much time on it they'd have no time for paid work. What if the people who want to do it, never get the support they need? Or they never meet? What if they are ordinary folk and need to work to live and never get enough time to make the project in time, because no one funded them to work on it full time? Then the Earth is fucked.

The logic AI that needs to be made, must in addition of being able to process logic, be capable of argument resolution (Taking disagreeing statements and extracting the most provable truth from them), and of processing the language it is written in. So if the AI is written in C++, it must read C++ as well as reading Logic. This will enable to AI to be self-modifying.

If you want an instruction for how to end the madness of this world... pray that someone will be able to build this, in time, and not held back by the shortsightedness or commercial needs of other people not in the team. It will take a team of genius a few years to make it. Perhaps 5 years or so.

[psyche]

I agree with your post, I'm all for imagination.
You are ranting about how to be a better person or how our world should became better. So the point seems to be that something needs to be done. We need to use our imaginations about the better world to improve our own. Now, I consider it to be irrelevant if there really exists such a world when we don't have access to it. There is the same image of the better world in the creative minds of some of us despite the fact that it is or isn't out there. So, suppose we make some breakthrough that another, better race has done billions of years ago. I wouldn't give all the praise to the much better planet out there, since it has nothing to do with the progress we made using our imagination of the better world. We figured it out and didn't even cheat by looking at their world. It doesn't really matter if someone figured out before us. It'll always be like that, there will always be better, and worse places in infinite universe. I think it's cynical to suppose that earth is doing so bad. It is because you think there is a lot more bad in our world than good, not because an averige planet in our universe does better than us.