I do not consent to a search!

[BA]

"I do not consent to a search;
Am I free to go?;
I want a lawyer."

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer; I'm one of you. What I write here is the best information that I've gleaned so far, and I'm prepared to use it myself. These are my best suggestions, and do not constitute legal advice. Check it out with your lawyer or a good second-year law student or better, and then mass copy it for all of your friends! Let us know what you find out, what your experiences are, and your ideas, so we can keep this up-to-date and make it even better.


What it is: Cops love to play word games, and they're good at it. They're also good at taking control and being the boss, or coming on like they're your parents or something. They know that you have rights, but they're betting that you don't know what they are. Watch your ass! Many people get busted by falling into their traps, or by not realizing that the cop is trying to get you to give up your rights ... so don't let them get away with it! One lawyer said that 99% of the people in jail talked themselves into it.


Some of their cute little tricks: "May we search you? No. Why, got something to hide?", or "Look, can I go? Not yet. Why, am I under arrest? Would you like to be?" Rather than keeping this sort of bullshit going, or trying to outwit them, it's just better not to play that kind of game. Keep in mind that if you lie to a cop and they can prove it later, that's one more thing you can be charged with ... so don't tell them anything one way or another! (One lawyer did say "Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand a lawyer", so maybe you can lie to a cop since you're not under oath, but it seems more prudent just to keep quiet.) Sometimes they'll threaten "Look, we can go get a warrant anytime, so you'd better let us in", but what that really means is "We tried everything, but couldn't get one. Please let us in so we can bust you." Well ... just say "No." Tell them to go get that warrant. Sometimes they'll say "A friend of yours ratted you out and told us everything. You know the guy, (insert name here)." This is a fishhook ... don't bite! And don't believe them! They're probably trying to get you to "retaliate" and to spill the beans about your friend ... who will be next on their pickup list because of what you just said.


Best case scenario: They detain you for a non-drug reason, such as a broken car light, a traffic violation, stereo too loud, etc. It's best to play along as "the good citizen" and to be courteous. If you totally get into their game and promise to take care of it, at most they'll write you a ticket, admonish you, and then let you go. Take the lumps! Express remorse! It works. If they go too far (like trying to search you or your property), then dig in your heels and exercise your rights. Read on.


Your rights: You have the right to refuse to let them into your home if they don't have a warrant (4th Amendment). You can refuse to consent to a search (4th Amendment), but you can't physically stop them. You can remain silent (5th Amendment), although it is often advisable to give them your name, address, and age. You have the right to have your attorney with you while they question you (5th Amendment, I think). You have the right not to sign anything they give you, except for a ticket. Do not make a statement!


Their "rights": They can briefly do a pat-down search on the outside of your clothing and check-out suspicious lumps that feel hard and bulky ... they want to make sure that you don't have a concealed weapon (but you should say "I don't consent to being searched" anyway to cover yourself, and you shouldn't carry anything incriminating in that same pocket!). They can and will ask you everything under the sun (freedom of speech you know). If you blow it by: answering their questions, letting them into your house, or consenting to a search, then they gotcha cold ... so don't do it! They don't have to read you your rights if you're not under arrest, so you'd better know what they are. They can briefly detain you for various purposes, but they can't hold you unless you're under arrest (If you ask "Am I free to go?", and they say no, ask "Why not?" or "What is the law that allows you to hold me?" or "I'm not under arrest, yet you've said I can't leave ... please clarify my legal status at this time."). If you try to physically resist them or to run away from them, then they have the right to use force against you ... even if you're clean and have done nothing wrong! So ... keep calm and be cool, they've got the deck stacked in their favor and they know it.


Reasonable Suspicion: Allows them to look briefly, but not to search.


Probable Cause: Having some kind of evidence against you, such as: a certain smell, an anonymous phone call about you, or seeing a joint lying on your living room table. Refusal to allow a search is not probable cause ... if it were, then they could search you no matter what answer you give, which is totally against the US Constitution (4th Amendment).


At home: If they knock on your door to "ask you a few questions," then either talk through the closed door or quickly step outside and lock your door behind you. This serves two purposes: One, do not give them an opportunity to look inside ... if they see something, that's probable cause. Two, if they want to conduct an illegal search, then they'll have to break down your door to do so. Then you can use the broken pieces as evidence against them, whereas if there are no broken pieces, then they will claim that you let them in voluntarily. If they drag on their "question" thing too long, keep asking "Am I free to go?" until they give you a definite answer. If they have a warrant, then tell them they can't start their search until your lawyer arrives to witness it, and then get that lawyer over real quick! During the search, have everyone sit together and instruct them to say absolutely nothing. If the cops ask you to do something, then you may politely tell them "Unless you are ordering me to do that at this time, I refuse. Are you ordering me to do that?" If they say yes, then you can ask "What law says that you can order me to do that?" If they can't answer, then don't do it. If they try to force you at that point, do not resist, and state "I'm not doing this voluntarily, but under protest and duress." Remember your witnesses.


On the road: If you get pulled over, it may be best to grab your license and registration, get out of the car, lock the door behind you, and walk to the area between the two cars, and get ready to play the Good Citizen Game.

EDIT: This tip can lead to dangerous situations and is not advised for the USA. Getting out of the car may lead to shooting incidents.

Be friendly, but not "too" friendly, be at ease, and talk to the person behind the badge. That way you're totally covered, they won't have an easy excuse to look through your windows, and they'll think that you're an average citizen ready to be admonished for some minor traffic violation. If they do decide to search your car, then they will do so, since apparently they don't need a search warrant if they have probable cause ... so fer Chrisake don't keep a joint sitting in your ashtray! Of course, you should tell them "I do not consent to a search", just so you're covered. When they ask why you're refusing their search, and if you feel you gotta say something, then say "I've been advised by an attorney never to consent to a search." It's magic.



In public: If they want to search you, then say "I do not consent to being searched." Always be clear about this, try to involve witnesses, and never physically resist. If you ever try to resist, then they will use force... they always do. So, be relaxed, move slowly, and keep your hands out where they can see them.


Tight situation: They conduct a search without your consent, and find something. Almost anything you say at that point will hurt you. The best thing you can do, and it is your Constitutional right, is to say "I want a lawyer" and then keep your trap shut 'til you get one! Don't answer any of their questions (except name, address, and age) if your lawyer isn't with you.


Worst case scenario: It's 3:30 am, ten cops break down your door and they're yelling and pointing their guns at you ... freeze! Do not move a muscle, and keep absolutely quiet for at least a count of 3! They'll frisk you and start to tear your place apart. When they know you're unarmed, then ask "Do you have a warrant? I do not consent to a search." If they do have one, then read it and make damn sure that they can legally do what they're doing. If the warrant doesn't specify what they're doing right now, then say so and insist that they stop (but don't try to physically stop them!). If they do not have a warrant, then tell them that they must leave. If they don't, then call the State Police and FBI , and report an incident of trespass by the local police and ask them to come and remove them. Get your lawyer there as quickly as possible, if you can, and remember that the more witnesses you have, the better ... there's always your neighbors! If the cops arrest you, then they must give you a receipt for everything they confiscate (wallet, clothing, packages, etc.), so I would think that they must also give you one for whatever they take during the search.


If they arrest you: Ask "Why am I under arrest?". They have to tell you. After they book you, demand your two phone calls, at your expense: first to an attorney, relative or employer, and second to a bailbondsman. If you can't afford a lawyer, then demand that they provide you with one at no expense. Do not let your lawyer enter a plea of "not guilty" before the arraignment (the first trip to court where you will be formally charged, which by law has to occur within 48 hours of your arrest, barring holidays and Sundays), because that would automatically lock you into criminal proceedings, which is where your dear lawyer will try to make his/her money. You should try like hell to get your case dismissed before that arraignment! Your lawyer knows what to do, and if s/he won't do it, then get one who will. If you can't get it dismissed, then enter your "not guilty" plea at the arraignment and insist on a jury trial, which will be expensive and difficult for the DA. Do not let your lawyer waive the speedy trial time limits! (Which s/he might try to do so they can charge you more money for "preparation," etc.) You don't want the prosecution to have all the time in the world to build their case against you! If you are adamant about all that, and if their case isn't strong, then they might actually drop it! What the hell, it's worth a shot! If your case does go to trial, then try like hell to get that jury informed about their inherent right to judge the law itself, and to nullify it by letting you go, if they think it's not fair or is totally ridiculous (like forcing you to go to prison for a year for having 1.5 ounces of pot, or some equally obnoxious law).


Drills: Knowing what to say and do is great, but it's even better if you get together with your friends and practice on each other, preferably in at least two frames of mind. That way, if you're one on one with a cop, you'll be ready to handle the situation.


How you can help fight: Register to vote (preferably in a sympathetic group such as the Libertarian Party (http://the%20Libertarian%20Party), which supports the legalization of drugs), for then you become eligible to serve on a jury and to use your right of nullification to free a brother or sister. Join NORML (http://NORML) and get wise! Copy this pamphlet, give it to your friends, and help spread this, our only means of defense. And, most of all, be a good and conscientious person ... nothing is more devastating to the "War on Druggie" types than to show the world that these assholes are persecuting some of the best people. Make 'em think.

[Insane Asian]

god i read all of the topics u made about this law stuff and it was very very useful. i sent a copy of all 3 of the posts combined to everyone i know that would need it. very very good topic thanks a lot for the info EVERYONE READ THESE TOPICS DONT BE LAZY CAUSE THEY ARE LONG THEY ARE VERY INFORMATIVE.

[Thegreatone]

good info cops are trickey bastards





(I would think that they must also give you one for whatever they take during the search.) yes they do at least in pa. it will say something like 2lbs of weed in 4 plastic bags.

[edgien]

Amen Brother....drug task force officers are like stormtroopers with badges and to say cops are trickey bastards is a vast understatement, they are nothing short of criminal bastards....

[davidBuster23]

Reading all of the posts in this forum over the past few days, I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge that some people have about legal matters. brokenarrow and probably a few others have provided some great and immensely valuable information, but they are things that everyone should have alreadymade a point of knowing -- especially those of us who may or may not be involved in the occasional illegal activity.


I'm glad that this place is here and that there are people like brokenarrow willing to take the time to spread the good word.


Remember -- law enforcement officials have very few weaknesses, but one of them is a suspect who has the knowledge and confidence to demand his or her rights.

[jrock0069]

I hate cops who think their above the law. Anybody remember those kids in school who didn't have any friends, couldn't get laid and got picked on all the time? Well, those are the kids who grow up to be asshole cops seeking revenge on the common civilian for living life to the fullest. "May they die of gonorhea and rot in hell"


Edited by: jrock0069

[Muirner]

Very good post BA http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif, what you say is completly true... My only objection is the part about on the road. If you get out of your car in the US and lock your doors behind you i have a feeling not only will the cop be freaking out, but you will also be suspicious because you locked your doors... I'd say sit in your car and play good citizen from there


But other then that you post what happens, and you cover it all in great details again http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif


Muirner

[hippie_lain]

This is all great. My brother knows all this stuff and is always sure to inform me(even though hes a square...still a cool guy). But one thing that i didnt see is ALWAYS take down there badge number. It makes them scared and show you have knowledge...most likely more than you have. Once I asked for a badge number and i sherif almost broke my risk. Be careful on "instisting" your rights. Some cops wont take shit and they will get away with it most of the time.


Knowledge=Power, read up

[Muirner]

Hippy, your brother is right, but be careful insisting a badge number also, i've found that talking works the best, true knowledge is power and in a pull over situation it's nice to know what's going on. I've always been to scared to ask for a badge number, and i know if i get a ticket then i'll have the # and if not then i dont have to worry. As nice as it is to know, the more you "know" infront of a police officer can be taken as being rude if it's in the wrong tone..




Muirner

[rhubes]

Here is a website with more legal info. There is a forum on this site, and there is a section for criminal law and another subsection for drugs.http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/ There are some real assholes on the forum, but I have learned some things.

[FrankenChrist]

http://www.flexyourrights.com/index.html

This video also explains things.Edited by: FrankenChrist

[sp12]

Check your county police force to see if they have a citizen deputization
program.

A badge in you wallet looks nice, shows an imposing officer that your in
the fraternity. Some counties give better arms ownership rights to LEO.
Some don't even do background checks.

This might be a southern thing, but look into it.

[wgoff]

im not sure how far this would get you....but i was told by an ex prosecuting attorney that if you are pulled over for a dui...and you know that you are drunk.... that you can refuse the sobriety test and breathlizer... they tell you that you are admitting guilt by not complying but this isnt true...it is one of their tactics.... i forget where in the constitution it states that....but you do not have to self incriminate yourself in anyway.... it is up to the police officer to prove you are drunk.... if you refuse the breathlizer and field sobriety test...yes you will be arrested...(for resisting arrest) and also dui...but with a good lawyer i was told almost all of the times you will get off with resisting arrest (misdemeanor) vs the dui (felony)... the only draw back to that is.... it will get you arrested EVERY time you refuse....i have been pulled over for dui several times and being just slightly over the limit i have been let go with a warning and told to go immediately home....i could have gotten a dui all 3 times...but got nothing out of it.....if i had refused the sobreity test i would have gotten arrested for resisting arrest all 3 times.... so all depends on your luck with police officers in your area....if you get pulled over and know for a fact you are going to get a dui and not let off.....try refusing to take it...dont even speak to the police officer.... wait until you go before the magistrate and have your attorney give them a reason for why you didnt take it

[wgoff]

oh also on the refusal to allow to search....you can refuse to allow your vehicle to be searched....but if there is something illegal in plain view and they see it obviously they are allowed to search your vehicle.... same goes with if while they are pulling you over...if they see you stuffing things under the backs of your seats or in the glove box they are allowed to search (where they see you stuffing things) which allows them to illegally search your vehicle if they suspect anything....all they have to say is *sir i seen you stuffing something in your glove box and under your seats as i was pulling you over...step out of the car* even if you werent.... so always remember to keep anything illegal in the trunk of your car if you are transporting it.....its kind of hard for a police officer to say * i seen you putting things in the trunk of your car as i was pulling you over*.... refuse the search...say you feel it is a violation of your rights ... and every time you are searched and nothing is found and you refused....call and bitch out everyone in that police officer chain of command at least a dozen times wanting to know what is going to be done about this.....it wont do any good and no one will get fired...but after you cuss the sherriff a dozen times....the shit eventually rolls downhill and he will tell deputy fife to stop harrassing citizens because he is tired of your phone calls....this may not help you any but it will help the next person down the line.....if enough people did this it would put law enforcement in check to the point where they would just do their job and not abuse their powers

[Muirner]

so always remember to keep anything illegal in the trunk of your car if you are transporting it.....its kind of hard for a police officer to say * i seen you putting things in the trunk of your car as i was pulling you over*.... refuse the search...say you feel it is a violation of your rights ... and every time you are searched and nothing is found and you refused....


I learned something in jail when i was there recently. It dosent matter if you have your glove box locked and the drugs in your car and nothing is visable. The new homland security laws allow them to go through your car because of "suspected contraband". So no longer does throwing your shit in the trunk work... and also if your local police station has a K-9... hiding drugs becomes that much harder


Muirner

[mmilam]

<CENTER>




On the road: If you get pulled over, it may be best to grab your license and registration, get out of the car, lock the door behind you, and walk to the area between the two cars, and get ready to play the Good Citizen Game. Be friendly, but not "too" friendly, be at ease, and talk to the person behind the badge. That way you're totally covered, they won't have an easy excuse to look through your windows, and they'll think that you're an average citizen ready to be admonished for some minor traffic violation. If they do decide to search your car, then they will do so, since apparently they don't need a search warrant if they have probable cause ... so fer Chrisake don't keep a joint sitting in your ashtray! Of course, you should tell them "I do not consent to a search", just so you're covered. When they ask why you're refusing their search, and if you feel you gotta say something, then say "I've been advised by an attorney never to consent to a search." It's magic.


ok first of all, ive been pulled over many many many many times, just because local police in my small town know my face and who i am.

good thing about getting out of your car and locking the door, well, this doesnt work all the time.
Many many many times, when i try to get out of my car, the cops yell on the loud speaker, "DRIVER! please stay in your vehicle. Do not get out!"

so that sort of screws u up a bit.
Also, when you try and lock your door. you obviously have to take your keys with you. Well, the other night i locked my door and got out, because they pulled me over as i was pulling into my driveway. literrally, the cop parked behind me in my driveway. 5 seconds later my street had 5 cop cars with thier lights on standing in my driveway. They wouldnt let me go inside.

Well as they patted me down, they searched my pockets and found my keys, which has a little remote control attached to it to unlock and lock your car.
Well "supposbly, when the cop took my keys out my pocket, he "accidently" hit the trunk button and my trunk popped open, then they searched the trunk because it was open, yet, they didnt search the inside of my car, luckily because i had a .38 hidden in my sunroof. they did use flashlights to look through the windows, but if it was during the day, then they would have definitly seen the .38. im going to have to get the sunroof tinted. because under the sunroof is a sliding door that you pull underneaght the sunroof to keep the sun from getting in your car. so i hid the .38 between the sliding door and the sunroof. well, they didnt end up giving me a ticket, they just wanted to harrass me, and luckily i had my work shirt on and proved to them i was working overtime and just got off work.

But thats a situation that is not in your article that i wanted to add.

[Calvin]

if a police dog signals that are drugs in your car that is probable cause and the officer can search you!!!!!!!!!!


I don't think this is very good advice actually.... getting out of your car and approaching the cruiser is very out of the norm as far as traffic stops go. If you were pulled over it is for 1 of 3 reasons:

1. there is a warrent out for the owner of the car you are driving.
2. you commited a a traffic violation
3. you have a strong profile of a drug user/dealer

I suggest responding exclusivly to the reason you were pulled over. put all drug related things out of sight, and remain in your vehicle. ask why you were pulled over when teh officer aproachs you, and even try to wiggle out of any kind of traffic violation you were pulled over for

If you keep saying " I don't permit to search" every 5 sentances it really does give the police officer reasonable suspicion, and he can hold you untill a cop with a dog comes to sniff at your vehicle. This dog doesn't even need to really smell weed. officers can get their dogs to signal even with out a suspisious odor.


Point: a determined cop can get into your vehical LEGALLY no matter what actions you take. Your best bet is to be the typical traffic stop, and be nice.

[katukulysm]

On the road: If you get pulled over, it may be best to grab your license and registration, get out of the car, lock the door behind you, and walk to the area between the two cars, and get ready to play the Good Citizen Game.


most of the time if you get out of your car like that then your asking for it. usually a cop will either pull out his gun, tell you to stop right there, or try to tell you that is illegal or something. it wont work where swik is at. the cops here are dicks.

[Police Officer]

good info cops are trickey bastards.

Yes, we are. :)

[Veteran Joker]

All good stuff if swim vists the states, but what about English law, does someone in England have the right deny search consent?

[IntrepidTraveler]

I think a large portion of the men in women in law enforcement are only there because they were not smart enough/thrifty enough/ballsy enough to go the opposite route and live a life of crime. Very few, in my view, join the police force because of their general regard for upholding the law.

[x cynic x]

Yes, we are. :)


Why go any further than enforce laws? Just do your god damn job and dont try to screw innocent people over to fill up a quota.

[Beltane]

This has happened to SWIM twice, and there's 2 good stories he's too tired to type up.

Bottom line: Whatever you way, copys WILL search you and you car. If you DID NOT consent to the search, and can afford a good lawyer, whatever they found will probably be inadmissable.

If you can't afford a good lowyer, bend iover. They'll use whatever they find.

One more thing, don't consent to ANY search request:

Cop: Mind if I search youru car for weapons?

You (nope, no weapons): Sure, go ahead

Cop: What's this bag of dope?

You: you're fuicked, good lawyer or not. You consented to the search.

- Beltane

[pillz]

definately nota good idea for swiy to get out of swiys car. at least not in the usa anyway. if swiy even read the permit booklet, swiy would know that that:
1. stay in the car with seatbelt on
2. keep both hands on the steering wheel
3. and with the cop watching then pull out the license and registration.

why would swiy get out of the car anyway(even if swiy is just getting a speeding ticket or warning.....very suspicious.why would swiy say that he doesnt permit a search? that alone is incriminating.

[pillz]

sorry for the doublepost. yea never consent to a search if swiy is asked by officer, as beltane said

[Police Officer]

...to fill up a quota.

Quota's reguarding arrests/drug arrests/seizures/citations are things you hear about on MSNBC or CNN. They arent real. Urban myths. This is universally true in the United States. I know no one agrees with me. But if you disagree you are wrong. If you think you are right then show me one Police Department that does. And make sure you have the name of the Department, and the city/county and state because I will call them and confirm that you are wrong.

I think a large portion of the men in women in law enforcement are only there because they were not smart enough/thrifty enough/ballsy enough to go the opposite route and live a life of crime. Very few, in my view, join the police force because of their general regard for upholding the law.

You are saying that Cops become Cops because they arent smart or brave enough to be career criminals? Wow. That is absolutely the most rediculous thing that I have ever heard. Seriously. And believe me, I have heard some geeked up stuff.

And from your point of view...right. What do you do for a living?

[x cynic x]

Quota's reguarding arrests/drug arrests/seizures/citations are things you hear about on MSNBC or CNN. They arent real. Urban myths. This is universally true in the United States. I know no one agrees with me. But if you disagree you are wrong. If you think you are right then show me one Police Department that does. And make sure you have the name of the Department, and the city/county and state because I will call them and confirm that you are wrong.


They exist, know matter how unintelligent you are.

http://www.wlwt.com/health/5298686/detail.html
CINCINNATI -- Vincent George has been putting on his Cincinnati police officer uniform for seven years -- he's even received awards for his beat work -- but he's been placed on overnight desk duty ever since he filed a grievance, News 5's John London reported. George filed the grievance over what he said is punishment for not meeting quotas his supervisor, Lt. Anthony Carter, laid out for all third-relief workers, London reported."The lieutenant has, in his mind, come up with these numbers he feels we can accomplish, and if you don't make them, he has his consequences," George said. "I didn't join (the police force) to become a predator that goes out and sits on a corner where a light is and watch people run red lights."

But seriously, without some sort of system, how would police be paid to do their job? What are they paid for? Throwing charges at people, the more the better. Dont tell me you never see hundreds of officers sitting on the highways at the end of the month, tryin to raise their figures at the last moment. Makes sense.

[IntrepidTraveler]

And from your point of view...right. What do you do for a living?

I'm currently a student, an undergraduate double majoring in math and philosophy. Does this discredit my point of view? I think your response actually highlights the point I was trying to make--police officers are police officers because it's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR LIVING. They were not born saints who came to this world to serve and protect, they're just average blokes punching in, punching out and trying to make the rent. They're no better or worse than anyone, no matter what the government lets them get away with.

[Police Officer]

They exist, know matter how unintelligent you are.

http://www.wlwt.com/health/5298686/detail.html (http://www.wlwt.com/health/5298686/detail.html)

“Know” matter where you live, they don’t exist. Seriously buddy, “know” matter how many times you’ve been told this, it’s incorrect and an urban myth. Call any department in the world and ask them if they have quotas. They will all tell you “know.” ;)

Well you quoted the part that fit your post, but you omitted this:

"The Cincinnati Police Department's policy has always been that they do not have quotas," Fraternal Order of Police vice president Keith Fangman said.

Like I said, quotas don’t exist. The guy who was mentioned who made "goals" was reprimanded for breaking policy.

[Police Officer]

I think your response actually highlights the point I was trying to make--police officers are police officers because it's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR LIVING. They were not born saints who came to this world to serve and protect, they're just average blokes punching in, punching out and trying to make the rent. They're no better or worse than anyone, no matter what the government lets them get away with.

Man this is way off of the subject.

lol C'mon buddy. What are you talking about? You're point from the previous post was that Police are retards who aren't smart enough to be criminals. Now you're saying that Cops are just average guys like everyone else just trying to make a living. So...Ok...Then...I guess I just dont understand what you're trying to say.

Anyway, I asked what you do for a living because most people who have similar views have had limited exposure to the world. Being a student I would imagine that you havent lived a full and cultured life. Wait about ten years and see how you feel. I would imagine that most of the older folks (30+) on here who are seasoned in life have a much different veiw of the world and the people in it than those who are in their early 20's.

BTW, I'm not calling people who are 30+ "old." Trust me, I'm definately not.

[Nagognog2]

Yes. And no. Us doddering old fossils who are over 30 MAY have developed a different attitude. Some may also live in Ivory Towers with a still limited exposure to the so-called "real world." Some may agree with Porky here. And yet others may have developed a Gestalt overview which allows co-existence with all viewpoints presented without prejudice.

To the latter: It's like a deck of cards. The fool is dealt the hand, while the wise person knows which card to play at any given time.

Go chew on that.

[IntrepidTraveler]

Man this is way off of the subject.

lol C'mon buddy. What are you talking about? You're point from the previous post was that Police are retards who aren't smart enough to be criminals. Now you're saying that Cops are just average guys like everyone else just trying to make a living. So...Ok...Then...I guess I just dont understand what you're trying to say.


I never called cops retards. I said I thought many were "not smart enough/thrifty enough/ballsy enough" to be career criminals. Yes, I think the average person IS pretty dim. The only difference is that many policer officers have unsettling inferiority complexes, and somehow think they're above average when they're anything but. Notice how carefully I choose my words when I say things like "a large portion" and "many."

I really don't want to argue about this. My comment about cops wasn't directed towards you personally, so resist the urge to get steamed.

[IntrepidTraveler]

Changing gears: Police Officer, I want to hear more about this quota business. I cross checked what you said about official quotas being illegal, and it checks out. That's very surprising news to me! Many otherwise intelligent and experienced people have told me otherwise--indeed, it seems that it's simply conventional wisdom that cops doll out tickets at the end of the month "just to fill the quota."

So PO, what do police stations do to motivate police to give out enough tickets to make the necessary amount of money? Are unofficial, "unwritten" quotas the norm? Do cops risk losing promotions if they don't hand out enough tickets?

[IntrepidTraveler]

With SWIM's unkempt appearance, I think a police officer would be suspicious to see that I had shaving cream just lying around..

[BetteNoir]

"With SWIM's unkempt appearance, I think a police officer would be suspicious to see that I had shaving cream just lying around.."

Good point lol

yes, can of beans and or liquid wrench might suffice lol

[hoodabudda]

^^^^lol guess ur right...swim would just put it in a little travle kit with some soap shampoo and some other stuff thed never know...but a dog.....

[fryingsquirrel]

if swiy refuse a search on your car they call out the dog. now swim would rather have a pig with an IQ of 71 goin through swims stuff than the dog.who would be more likely to point out a hollow shaving cream can full of ganjaAssuming it will fit, that's why the dope should at this point be in you, not your car. Once when ask permission for a search (I had nothing anyway, so it was sorta fun) I refused. When asked why I said "Because alot of brave men died so I didn't have to." He stood there for quite awhile with this dumb look on his face, then finally gave me my ticket and sent us on our way.

[grecian]

All good stuff if swim vists the states, but what about English law, does someone in England have the right deny search consent?

In the UK suspicion of a crime is a pre-requisite to a stop-and-search (with a few exceptions (see below)). Thus your consent is not an issue for the police as they have the right to search you. Consent can be denied for home searches in some cases.

This quick guide, along with some sound advice comes from

Release: Drugs, The Law and Human Rights (http://www.release.org.uk/html/~master_menu/Bust_Card.php)

On the Street

You can be stopped and searched if the police have a reasonable suspicion that you are in possession of:-
* controlled drugs
* offensive weapon or firearm
* carrying a sharp article (GRECIAN EDIT: short bladed penknives excluded)
* carrying stolen goods
or if you are in a coach or train, on your way to, or you have arrived at, a sports stadium.



There are other situations where you can be stopped and searched, for example:

* If police fear that there might be serious violence or a terrorist threat in a particular area, they can stop and search anyone in that area for up to 48 hours. In these circumstances, the police do not need to have reasonable suspicion that you are carrying a weapon or committing a crime.

REMEMBER:
» You run the risk of both physical injury and serious criminal charges if you physically resist a search. If it is an unlawful search, you should take action afterwards by using the law.


SEARCH OF YOUR HOME

* The police can search premises with the consent of the occupier.
* A warrant can be obtained from magistrates by the police to search premises for evidence of certain crimes.
* The police can only search the section of the premises that you occupy and communal areas of the premises.
* Police may enter WITHOUT a search warrant in many situations, including:
* following an arrest, the police are allowed to search premises the detained person occupies or has control over
* to capture an escaped prisoner
* to arrest a person for an arrestable offence or certain public order offences
* to protect life or to stop serious damage to property
* other laws give police specific powers to enter premises

REMEMBER:
» You are entitled to see a copy of any search warrant.
» Police can use reasonable force to gain entry.
» Police should give you information about their powers to search premises.
» A record of the search must be kept by the police.
» You or a friend should be allowed to be present during the search but this right can be refused if it is thought it might hinder investigations.


If you wish to learn more about this visit

Your Rights (http://www.yourrights.org.uk/your-rights/chapters/the-rights-of-suspects/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-persons-and-vehicles---without-arrest/index.shtml)

[IntrepidTraveler]

So PO, what do police stations do to motivate police to give out enough tickets to make the necessary amount of money? Are unofficial, "unwritten" quotas the norm? Do cops risk losing promotions if they don't hand out enough tickets?

C'mon PO, it's been like 4 days! I want some info :cool:

[Nagognog2]

He leaned into the (baited with a joint) trunk, with his woofie, of a demented sexual-predator. He is still in the trunk on their way to the secret forest where the sex-preds have their camp. We should be seeing him (and his woofie) on U-Tube soon...

[IntrepidTraveler]

He leaned into the (baited with a joint) trunk, with his woofie, of a demented sexual-predator. He is still in the trunk on their way to the secret forest where the sex-preds have their camp. We should be seeing him (and his woofie) on U-Tube soon...

lol. We can only hope! Just kidding, PO...


What are you doing up so early nog (assuming it's early where you're logged in from)? I'm still awake (630 am here) studying for exams..

[Police Officer]

So PO, what do police stations do to motivate police to give out enough tickets to make the necessary amount of money? Are unofficial, "unwritten" quotas the norm? Do cops risk losing promotions if they don't hand out enough tickets?

Intrepid, you're the Chief of Police in Anytown, U.S.A. What type of things would you do? When it came to "eval" time, or promotion time, what types of things would you recognize as setting one Officer in front of others? I'm curious to know.

No, we dont risk promotions if we dont hand out tickets. Aside from not having insurance, I write maybe 1 ticket every 100 stops for minor traffic infractions. Thats just me though. Unofficial and unwritten quotas are not the norm, and to be honest with you they piss off Cops from what I understand. I know I'd be pretty pissed if someone tried to force some type of quota on me.

[pinklepork]

Very informative, thankyou. I have always wondered what to do in these situations.

[Alfa]

:offtopic:
Various posts moved here: The support for drug laws (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31986)
Please get back on topic: Searches and the consent thereof.

[x cynic x]

What is more important, the permission to conduct a search, or the suspicion of illegal substances? Sorry if Swim missed something, but he just needs some clarification.

[YKS]

That link is broken =( Forgive me! Yahoo has a working video stream of this so hopefully this one doesn't break anytime soon!

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=315933

[chAos]

What is more important, the permission to conduct a search, or the suspicion of illegal substances? Sorry if Swim missed something, but he just needs some clarification.

whatch the movie Calvin posted: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=258006&postcount=51 :). Don't give permission to conduct a search, certainly not when you have illegal substances on you and don't give them reasons to suspect you from having them, not giving a permission isn't enough for them to suspect you.

[Nagognog2]

I've been in such situations several times. The old: "This is just a random stop. Can I search your car?" I never have anything of interest. And I never give permission to search. Only rarely have police persued it.

What I find more disturbing (USA) is police asking for my social security number. Social Security was not designed as a national tracking device. Your S.S. number is an open gateway to all things about you: Including identity-theft. You are under no obligation whatsoever to give ANYONE your S.S. number. Not police. Not Department of Motor Vehicles. Not your doctor. No one.

Don't. Got that? Do you have your Social Security card in your wallet? Right now, take it out. Put it in a safe location only you know about. You'll be much safer.

[fromthestars]

Police officer, weather or not police stations have quota's for speeding tickets is a pretty irrelevant point here anyways. What is fact is that many cities have drug units funded on nothing else but the profits of selling stuff you forfeit from dealers. You may very well be a good person, but the fact you take a job where you mindlessly fuck over peoples lives enforcing dumb laws does make you a bit of a

[Flaming is not allowed. Read the rules!]

nomatter what you think.

[TheMorphineMan]

If you get pulled over, it may be best to grab your license and registration, get out of the car, lock the door behind you, and walk to the area between the two cars, and get ready to play the Good Citizen Game. Be friendly, but not "too" friendly, be at ease, and talk to the person behind the badge

In many places, this is NOT a good idea. Many states in the US require you to stay in your vehicle until the officer gives you further instructions. Immediately jumping out of the vehicle may lead the officer to believe you are trying to flee, or, if you are walking back toward his car, the officer may believe you are showing aggression toward him; either way, at this point, they will treat you as a hostile suspect, and you never want this.

[TheMorphineMan]

Some personal experience of mine that may help someone in trouble:

If you have contraband in your vehicle (but not actually on your person), NEVER admit that it's yours or that you know anything about it. As obvious as it may be that it's yours, don't budge. The law in most states says that any contraband found in your vehicle is legally yours, but many DAs may decide not to pursue the case if they can't prove that you actually had knowledge of the item being there (i.e., admitting to it).

[darkglobe]

Would love to see that stand up in court!

"Officer, what on earth are you talking about? A 9 bar taped inside the workings of the driver's door? I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about! *smiles sweetly*"

[TheMorphineMan]

Lol! I kinda meant something under the passenger seat, or in the glove box.

And btw, I apologize to other posters for reiterating that it may not be a good idea to jump out of your car; I missed the other posts in the beginning of the thread that said the same exact thing.

[TheMorphineMan]

But yeah, if the case goes to court, you will most definitely be stuck with it.

[x cynic x]

Police officer, weather or not police stations have quota's for speeding tickets is a pretty irrelevant point here anyways.

In the paper the other day Swim read about a lawsuit for a police station having quotas. Some patrol men filed the claim Swim believes, and the chief responded by saying "There are no quotas. The amount of tickets and officer writes and the amount of arrests he makes are only crucial criteria in determining rank." That made Swim laugh. Just the clear incentive to punish the innocent.

[TheMorphineMan]

I think most every major police department has secret quotas. I used to live in Houston, TX, and a few years back, the entire department was under federal investigation for improper procedures/mishandling evidence (the entire DNA crime lab was shut down for falsifying evidence, lol); anyway, I remember it being a big deal when the feds discovered traffic quotas, but no one was surprised. Something has to motivate the lazy ass officer who would rather be catching some zzz's to bust people for 3-5 mph over the limit and later having to fill out all the paperwork.

[purplehaze]

Swim living in the U.S.A has always been told to not consent to a search, and also that if you say no when a officer ask to search the vehicle that it doesn't give them any more reason or suspicion to search the vehicle.

Swim has been pulled over on numerous occasions and he has never said no (mostly cuz no need to), it appears that when a cop ask if he can search the vehicle if swim says yeah sure go ahead you wont find anything in a calm voice then the officer will not pursue the search.

I dunno why that is and i too thought that officers were not supposed to pursue a search further just because you say no but it never has failed, if swim says yes the officer always says something to the effect of "i believe you've been honest with me so far so im just gonna write you a ticket" since swim did not say no on any of these occasions he cant know the outcome indefinately had he said no but he assumes the officer is asking just to see if he will say no or otherwise why would he ask and then not search?

I believe if i would have said no then he would have called for backup and i would have had to wait an embarrassing 2hrs standing infront of my car handcuffed infront of the public.


So i would like some more input, please if anyone has ever been ask "do you mind if i search your vehicle" and swiy said that the officer could NOT search it please give more info on what happened.

[silentghost]

SWIM has never had problems with cops, but maybe thats because SWIM deals with them so often (as an EMT). SWIM's friends happen to have a lot of trouble with cops. They sometimes smell like marijuana, their cars are not 'mainstream' (tinted windows, custom plates, etc.), and they often get suckered into telling the cops something they shouldn't. SWIY should never ever be pulled over in your car for being suspicious anyway. If SWIY is, then you are probably drunk, or high, and potentially dangerous.

Police, like firefighters, are a sort of a big fraternity. You just have to convince them your in it too! #1 rule, be completely calm like everything is normal. Make some small talk if you get the chance before he writes you a ticket or asks you questions. Talk about your positive experiences with the police, and how they are so awesome! Even though SWIM and the cop both know SWIM's eyes are bloodshot and dilated.... SWIM casually mentions he is tired from a long day at work and he wears contacts. No sudden movements. Casually slide your pills out of sight while he looks down...

[~lostgurl~]

Here are some videos from the drugs-forum archive that relate to this topic:

Busted: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=ratelink&linkid=606&catid=142&lpage=1)

Never Get Busted - Preview Day (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=ratelink&linkid=3474&catid=142&lpage=1)

Never Get Busted Again + Hidden Compartments (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=ratelink&linkid=2961&catid=142&lpage=1)

Related Discussion Thread: Ex-cop markets dvd on avoiding pot busts (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34224&highlight=busted+video)


(http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=play&linkid=3474&catid=142&page=1)

[x cynic x]

I like the idea of distracting canines by applying the scents of other animals to the car, pretty innovative. The biggest contradiction in the Untied Snakes is having to use such methods to conceal the evidence of your presonal activities, while living in a country that calls itself the "Land of the Free"

[El Calico Loco]

SWIM has never had problems with cops, but maybe thats because SWIM deals with them so often (as an EMT).


Swim's never had trouble either. He likes to think it's because he's polite. We should all try to remember that, despite being The Enemy :laugh:, cops are still human beings. Nobody likes being treated with contempt. We often - not always, but often - get what we give.

That said, another trick police will use: one officer leads you away from your vehicle on pretense (safety, getting out of the way of oncoming traffic, or whatever). While you and he are talking cordially, another officer comes over and says, "I'm going to search your car now," and walks off. If you don't stop him (with words, obviously), you've just "consented" to the search.

Heh...Swim was once pulled over for going 35 in a speed trap. He was wearing leather boots, a biker jacket, and a Satan's Cheerleaders (http://www.satanscheerleaders.com/) T-shirt. He had a shaved head and may have been wearing eyeliner. He looked a whole lot meaner than he really is, and the officer seemed nervous - kept insisting that Swim not rest his hands on his hips, which is his natural position when standing and talking to someone. Swim finally chuckled and said, "Look, man...I'm a computer programmer. I'm 30 years old. I've never been in trouble." And that was the end of it.


ECL

[x cynic x]

Swim's never had trouble either. He likes to think it's because he's polite.

Being polite makes the law feel like your "respecting their authority", and they like that. So unless your naturally polite, maybe you could try to acknowledge their power so they don't want to bother you as much.

[stickyone13]

This is my most recent encounter with police in a "request for search" situation, as verbatim as it possibly can be.

Background: I was driving on the interstate, speeding for sure, trying to get home from out of town in time to make reservations at a pretty nice restaurant, when *BWOOP BWOOP* I get pulled over. It was a state trooper, so after the cursory exchange of pleasantries (license, insurance, reason for the stop, etc.) I was asked to step out of the vehicle. pretty standard. Upon doing so (i'm dressed in baggy cargo shorts, a vintage rockets t-shirt from the early 80's that kicks serious ass, and a ratty old astros hat), I shut the door and locked it (even though I had absolutely nothing questionable in the car).

Cop:"Why'd you lock your car?"
Me:"Huh? Oh. Habit."
Cop:"You mind if I search your car?"
Me:"I do not consent to the search of my vehicle" (say THOSE WORDS. Answering "yes" or "no" can be perceived as permission, no matter what you actually meant. be clear)
Cop:"You know that because I pulled you over for speeding, I have the right to search your car."
Me:*chuckles* "That's not true at all"
Cop: *agitated* "You got something to hide?"
M: "not at all."
C: "so then you don't mind if I search your vehicle then."
M: I didn't say that.
C: "I can call the dogs out if I need to"
M: That would be unfortunate for both of us, but do what you have to do
C: Both of us? How's that?
M: Because my car will be ripped to tatters, as you will undoubtedly make a mess you won't clean up, It'll take 30 minutes for the dog to get here, another 30 for you to destroy my car, so I'll never make it to my dinner reservation, and lastly, with all due respect, you'll look like a fool for calling out the dogs for no reason."
C: *squints his eyes, cocks his head to the side, and stares at me for a bit. I do not break eye contact.* Very well then. It's just this is a well known corridor for the transport of marijuana. I have to be sure.

I then went back to the good citizen, good natured smalltalk I had begun at the beginning of the stop, and after a few minutes, he sent me on my way with nothing but a verbal warning. As long as you're polite, but quite firm in the assertion of your rights, you really have nothing to worry about.

About 2 years ago, swim got stopped pulling into his driveway shortly after picking up his car that was left in front of a friend's neighbor's house while they went out for dinner. Swim and his friend got out of the car, shut the door and locked it as the officer came up, immediately accusing them of drug use. Shortly thereafter, backup arrived, and while swim was standing with his hands on his trunk, he noticed that the backup officer had begun searching the car. Swim also noticed that his keys were sitting on the dashboard instead of the roof of the car where they were previously. "Hey! I did not consent to any searches!" swim said, but it was too late. backup officer had already found a very nearly empty sack of bud that was concealed in a compartment. in the bag was less than half a gram. Swim and his buddy are in handcuffs. Swim tells his buddy not to say anything at all, that he'll handle it. Upon being asked whose weed it was, Swim replied, "It doesn't matter. This search was not legal in the first place." "So it was yours?" "not important. charge us with possession if you want. This case will be thrown out so fast that you'll lament all the time spent filing the charges." "Shut up!" After 45 minutes sitting in the back of the police car, with cuffs that were far too tight (Swim was denied the loosening of the cuffs 5 times. His hand was still a little numb when he woke up in the morning), the cops came, gave swim "the talk" about the dangers of marijuana, and swim was let go, after breaking the bubbler they found in the trunk, and grinding the half-gram into the cement.

Moral of these stories? KNOW YOUR RIGHTS, EXCERCISE THEM, and you'll save yourself a world of trouble.

[ljfe]

SWIM and his friends have been asked to be searched when smoking pipes in random areas (his friend's car). Only one time did they "smell" marijuana, and he questions their reasonable cause, because this is one of the times they had lit a cigarette. Fortunatly SWIM stashed his .4 into a belt pocket and when they searched us his hand ran right over it. Even though they found the bowl, SWIM saved his freinds from being put away (they had records of buying weed from undercover cops). :)
Other times pot smoke has poured out of the window into the cops face and they didn't notice. SWIM ALWAYS says something like "I don't want them to search your car, because I really have to get going. We were only stopping to call for directions" if his driver doesn't say "I don't consent to any searches." Make sure there is no drugs in the car if you think it might be searched (they search for a long time), and figure out a great spot in your clothing.

[berloniana]

here is something that is very useful and works very well when under pressure from the law. Ask the officer(s) who is their "peco" sargents name . Then write it down while getting the same officer's name and badge number. It's their "professional ethic and code officer" , ya know -the one that handles internal investigations. That usually cools them off!!
I very rarely take the time to register- much less post or blog, but it seems there's alot of good info on this page so I thought I would contribute.

[norcolepsy]

Here are some videos from the drugs-forum archive that relate to this topic:

Busted: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=ratelink&linkid=606&catid=142&lpage=1)




(http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=play&linkid=3474&catid=142&page=1)

Oh wow, I remember watching that on the big screen back in a general criminal justice course years ago. A good laugh, but indeed informative.

[Police Officer]

I think most every major police department has secret quotas.
Its true, we do have secret quotas. They are kept in the black helicopters--only when they are in silent mode and abducting citizens to trade to aliens.

Cmon dude, there are no quotas.

I like the idea of distracting canines by applying the scents of other animals to the car, pretty innovative. The biggest contradiction in the Untied Snakes is having to use such methods to conceal the evidence of your presonal activities, while living in a country that calls itself the "Land of the Free"

When you say "your personal activities," do you actually mean your criminal activities? So what you're saying is that when you break the law you are forced to conceal the fact that you're breaking the law? Huh. If you dont like the law you can always lobby to change the law and put Ron Paul into office, or I hear Mexico has very liberal immigration and drug control laws. These are alternates to calling the United States the United Snakes, which BTW is old and unoriginal.

SWIM and his friends have been asked to be searched when smoking pipes in random areas (his friend's car). Only one time did they "smell" marijuana, and he questions their reasonable cause, because this is one of the times they had lit a cigarette. Fortunatly SWIM stashed his .4 into a belt pocket and when they searched us his hand ran right over it. Even though they found the bowl, SWIM saved his freinds from being put away (they had records of buying weed from undercover cops). :)
Other times pot smoke has poured out of the window into the cops face and they didn't notice.

Really? So you're saying that marijuana smoke billowed into a Police Officer's face and they took absolutely no action and asked no questions? Huh.

here is something that is very useful and works very well when under pressure from the law. Ask the officer(s) who is their "peco" sargents name . Then write it down while getting the same officer's name and badge number. It's their "professional ethic and code officer" , ya know -the one that handles internal investigations. That usually cools them off!!

This is not an original idea. But thankfully shitheads regularly make baseless complaints over the most petty of issues. Using this type of threat usually will only back off a noodle. For the vast majority of Police Officers this is a regular occurance and we will usually respond with "Here is my name (spelled very slowly), and my badge number (also spelled out slowly). Now stand back while I search your car." A short while later this is followed up with "You're under arrest. You can call my supervisor or internal affairs after or while you are in jail."

^ Does that sound a little more like how shit goes down? For the majority of people on here who regularly hang out with the Cops I believe that they will probably be with me on this.

[trptamene]

"Here is my name (spelled very slowly), and my badge number (also spelled out slowly). Now stand back while I search your car."


LOL!!!!!! At least you're truthful.

[berloniana]

Its true, we do have secret quotas. They are kept in the black helicopters--only when they are in silent mode and abducting citizens to trade to aliens.

Cmon dude, there are no quotas.



When you say "your personal activities," do you actually mean your criminal activities? So what you're saying is that when you break the law you are forced to conceal the fact that you're breaking the law? Huh. If you dont like the law you can always lobby to change the law and put Ron Paul into office, or I hear Mexico has very liberal immigration and drug control laws. These are alternates to calling the United States the United Snakes, which BTW is old and unoriginal.



Really? So you're saying that marijuana smoke billowed into a Police Officer's face and they took absolutely no action and asked no questions? Huh.



This is not an original idea. But thankfully shitheads regularly make baseless complaints over the most petty of issues. Using this type of threat usually will only back off a noodle. For the vast majority of Police Officers this is a regular occurance and we will usually respond with "Here is my name (spelled very slowly), and my badge number (also spelled out slowly). Now stand back while I search your car." A short while later this is followed up with "You're under arrest. You can call my supervisor or internal affairs after or while you are in jail."

^ Does that sound a little more like how shit goes down? For the majority of people on here who regularly hang out with the Cops I believe that they will probably be with me on this.

Did I mention in my post that I lived with a county sheriff mumm.... for about two years? would you consider that "regularly hanging out with the cops?" - he has now transfered to Nevada, yes as in a relationship, not "roommates". And I'm not trying to come across as a know it all, but he did offer up some pointers (lol)... If a person that is being questioned by the police does not know their rights -you guys certainly aren't going to tell them -you would agree to that wouldn't you?-other than to "maranda-ize" them. Little things for example you can only detain someone being questioned for x amount of time ( people check on this for yourself different states/laws ) then you must either release them or arrest them. A noodle you say? Try skid marks from backing up so fast! .... again the mind games. Shame on you! While I agree that the world would be lot worse off if we did not have the police, far too many people are in jail for victimless crimes such as unpaid traffic fines. Will you please tell me how this is helping our society ? by taking away the main bread winner, now the state must shoulder the finiacel burden to assist that family. For what? $1000.00 dollars in unpaid fines? It's very hard to pay fines when you can't get to work to make money. That is just one of the things I find disturbing about the laws today. Thank you for taking the time to read ( I'll ignore your insulting manner and resist adding the word s-l-o-w-ly ) my post and even more for responding. Let me add, not everyone that is conserned with how the laws affects them personally, breaks the law. Myself included.

[norcolepsy]

Regardless if he's an arrogant slow talker or a noodle, know what is within your jurisdiction and play your cards accordingly and it will not hold up in court (unless you really are caught red handed..EG smoke billowing in the face). Of course, cops could always completely fabricate and lie about the situation and say there was smoke billowing out when there was nothing of the sort..but an american LE would never demonstrate such unethical measures, now would he mr. police officer..?

...oh wait...damn.:confused:

[Pondlife]

Did I mention in my post that I lived with a county sheriff mumm.... for about two years? would you consider that "regularly hanging out with the cops?" - he has now transfered to Nevada, yes as in a relationship, not "roommates". And I'm not trying to come across as a know it all, but he did offer up some pointers (lol)... If a person that is being questioned by the police does not know their rights -you guys certainly aren't going to tell them -you would agree to that wouldn't you?-other than to "maranda-ize" them. Little things for example you can only detain someone being questioned for x amount of time ( people check on this for yourself different states/laws ) then you must either release them or arrest them. A noodle you say? Try skid marks from backing up so fast! .... again the mind games. Shame on you! While I agree that the world would be lot worse off if we did not have the police, far too many people are in jail for victimless crimes such as unpaid traffic fines. Will you please tell me how this is helping our society ? by taking away the main bread winner, now the state must shoulder the finiacel burden to assist that family. For what? $1000.00 dollars in unpaid fines? It's very hard to pay fines when you can't get to work to make money. That is just one of the things I find disturbing about the laws today. Thank you for taking the time to read ( I'll ignore your insulting manner and resist adding the word s-l-o-w-ly ) my post and even more for responding. Let me add, not everyone that is conserned with how the laws affects them personally, breaks the law. Myself included.

Thanks for sharing that. It looks like you have picked up some information that could be quite interesting to other members. "inside information" like this is always welcome.

One thing I'd like to point out is please don't fall into the trap of insulting other members. You may not like PO's manner, but please attack the points made; not the person making them.

[Graduisic]

in the ultra-capitalist world that is America, it makes it kind of hard to blame the police officer for their conduct.

It would be like a car salesman suckering you into a purchase that you later learned more about; all you can do is feel swindled and realize that in a capitalist world, EVERYONE is looking out for number one. no matter how many heads they have to step on, no matter how many people they cut off at the heels, the Ameri-Capitalist way is to be the biggest, the best, most powerful, and of course, the most money in-pocket.

comparing a police officer to a car salesman is rather outlandish; don't take it literally. I'm only saying it to prove that every working American is a slave to the Ameri-Capitalist economic system. Why, now, are 1 in every 100 Americans behind bars? It sounds to me like the prison "business" is booming much more quickly than most other industries in this day and age. more people behind bars means more money is being dished out to support the expanding industry. of course, as you feed a monster, it grows; and its hunger grows right along with it. police officers get "tougher on crime", and by the books, even though many offenses are nonviolent, their money is just as green as the purse thief, or the guy who wanders the streets at night with a knife mugging the lonely and scared.

The big problem is, there aren't enough violent, dangerous criminals in the United States to arrest to financially support the monster that the prison industry has grown into. any person who is in charge of budget spending in any company doesn't want to experience a financial loss, these people are happy when their numbers go up.

swim was arrested once for marijuana posession, and he was not mad at their actions at all; they were just doing their job and following orders.

Police officers are working-class people, just like people at wal-mart, they have to follow the rules put in place by those that are above them. why people spit in arresting officers' faces is beyond me. it's like spitting on the wal-mart guy that won't authorize a return because it's against the rules.

police officers, like all U.S. citizens, have the propensity to break the law; since it is the police officers' job to know the law as an employee of the US government, they certainly know how to skirt along the edge of the law, as i'm guessing most of you readers can recall a time you have found a legal loophole or narrowly avoided the law on a technicality, or just by being a law-savvy person. it's a two-way street from which no one, not even police officers are exempt. no one should ever be above the law.

law enforcement is simply using an increasingly greater deal of scrutiny of the law, and now those who may have been nonviolent offendors for decades without hurting anyone have slipped up under this greater deal of scrutiny and now are behind bars.

If anyone can find a better example of capitalism...

[lexifer]

Its true, we do have secret quotas. They are kept in the black helicopters--only when they are in silent mode and abducting citizens to trade to aliens.

Cmon dude, there are no quotas.



As if a police officer would admit that they had secret quotas. Swim has gotten far too many bullshit citations and tickets and dealings with hard ass cops in his town to believe that quotas don't exist. Swim really can't see any other explanation for all the fines he's got for simply skateboarding down the street (and no, not destroying property, simply riding down the road) or traffic stops that warranted a warning for first time offenses and gotten tickets with outrageous fines from those hard ass cops.

One could say that they are only enforcing the law, but there is enforcing the law and then there is being unreasonable with a polite, not-bothering-anyone citizen who just likes to skateboard or occasionally makes a minute driving error. There are cops who will give a warning for a broken tail light and then there are cops who will use the tail light (or anything else for that matter) to try and bust you for something else. Those are the ones who, when they can't find anything to bust you for, will give you a ticket for the broken tail light instead of giving a warning like most decent police officers will do. Suppose swim is ranting, but he feels like he made a point.

[Graduisic]

As if a police officer would admit that they had secret quotas. Swim has gotten far too many bullshit citations and tickets and dealings with hard ass cops in his town to believe that quotas don't exist. Swim really can't see any other explanation for all the fines he's got for simply skateboarding down the street (and no, not destroying property, simply riding down the road) or traffic stops that warranted a warning for first time offenses and gotten tickets with outrageous fines from those hard ass cops.

One could say that they are only enforcing the law, but there is enforcing the law and then there is being unreasonable with a polite, not-bothering-anyone citizen who just likes to skateboard or occasionally makes a minute driving error. There are cops who will give a warning for a broken tail light and then there are cops who will use the tail light (or anything else for that matter) to try and bust you for something else. Those are the ones who, when they can't find anything to bust you for, will give you a ticket for the broken tail light instead of giving a warning like most decent police officers will do. Suppose swim is ranting, but he feels like he made a point.


All these citations that swiy claims are "bullshit" are within the realm of the law. maybe a decade ago, police would let these minor infractions slide, as all of these nonviolent offenses arent causing chaos or danger to other citizens. the police now simply choose to exercise their right to write citations for violations that are minute infractions of the law. things that police officers used to "let slide" are things that police officers cannot afford to let slide. as my above post will explain, this is all a capitalist system, and the increasing need for funding to house 1% (and climbing) of US citizens who are in prison. your minor infraction fines are just as green as anyone elses. they gotta feed the ever-growing beast. there is no quota, it's just a capitalist venture to see how big their "industry" can grow. the best way to do that is to crack down on every minute detail of the law; regardless of how harmless or how ridiculous you might think the law is. you're a slave to the system and none of the politicians out there will do a thing to change it. until then, we just feed the growing industry and maybe we'll have 5% of americans behind bars in 5 years.

[El Calico Loco]

When you say "your personal activities," do you actually mean your criminal activities? So what you're saying is that when you break the law you are forced to conceal the fact that you're breaking the law? Huh.


I think he's lamenting the existence of laws that criminalize otherwise peaceful behavior in a nation that fancies itself free. As do I.

Is it ever justifiable to break the law? What about the men who founded America in the first place? They broke tons of laws. They were guilty of treason.

Graduisic:

I don't think you can blame capitalism for the drug war. Sweden and China have drug laws too. I think the blame rests squarely on puritanism and paternalism, and not just the American flavor.


ECL

[purplehaze]

This is not an original idea. But thankfully shitheads regularly make baseless complaints over the most petty of issues. Using this type of threat usually will only back off a noodle. For the vast majority of Police Officers this is a regular occurance and we will usually respond with "Here is my name (spelled very slowly), and my badge number (also spelled out slowly). Now stand back while I search your car." A short while later this is followed up with "You're under arrest. You can call my supervisor or internal affairs after or while you are in jail."

^ Does that sound a little more like how shit goes down? For the majority of people on here who regularly hang out with the Cops I believe that they will probably be with me on this.

See this post is the logic behind the problem. In the United States were everyone is free, you are supposed to be INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. In the qoute above displays the logic that the person in question, called a suspect, was already guilty.

Notice that PO has full confidence that the subject is guilty, asking for a badge number in this case would probably just piss an officer with this mentality off and make it harder on yourself.

Whether or not you subject willingly to a search, most police officers already have made a hypothesis of there own and are using there "gut instinct" and sometimes it means they believe you are guilty before you ever open your mouth, regardless of your rights.

When someone is weaving and they get pulled over, most police officers regardless if the person was completely sober and happened to be looking in the floor for a cd or changing the radio as the cause to weaving are already being pursued and the cop has made his hypothesis and is going to pursue your arrest. Police officers need to be shown that regardless if the person is in the right or wrong they still are innocent until proven guilty.

[berloniana]

Thank you Pondlife for the tip, although I thought I was being rather gracious in light of the tone of Policman's response (re; s-l-o-w-l-y). !! And yes, there was alot of "inside" info that I mentally made note of and even questioned my lover on the "why" and "why not's" . One thing and make no mistake about it - a large precentage of LE has the mind set that they are above the law and do as they please knowing their butts are covered- even by those amongst them that disagree with their actions or deeds. The "blue law" is you don't rat out a fellow officer no matter what, why do think they have that closeness ?
Here is an interesting statistic- LE over all as a group have some of if not the highest rates of ; substance abuse, spousal abuse, divorce and suicide. Go figure....Like I said the world would be much worse off with out them, but who is policing them? Take a look at my home state of Arizona. The world, not just the USA was laughing at Sheriff Joe Apaio and his goons. That is untill he had the publisher and owner of "The Phoenix New Times" arrested for not turning over a list that devulged the names of anyone and everyone that hit on a web page that had info on him. Not a lot of people are laughing now, because they realize just how out of control this situation is, when you look at the big picture. I realize illegal drugs are a real black eye to the US, but if we are going to something about it , it needs to start in the home- from the cradle, and how do you convince a people that have been wronged ( their whole lives turned upside down) because of a drug charge - real or not? I just read the stats on incarceration and the percentage of our population that is currently housed. It will blow your socks off. Shocking is an understatment, because MOST of them are there for non repetive non violent crimes!! I don't profess to know the answer but something has got to change because what we have isn't working. I have a fear of cops,... never did before I was in a relationship with one,... and I better stop at for fear that I'll draw more attention than I desire. Until this type of thing has touched you or someone you love and care about most people continue to ignore the facts. The media is still the best venue to expose this stuff, but even that is getting shut down. I'm a baby boomer, have and always will question authority, stand for equal and fair justice, and won't run, tuck and roll. But people!! ...know your rights!!! I can't stress that enough. Thanks for letting me vent and again for the tip. This won't be one of regular stops on the net simply because I feel so passionate about these issues, but I will check back often and see if I can contribute in anyway. Good page - I like it!

[berloniana]

Purplehaze, you are so right! how do you fight that type of logic?

What you say about homeland security is true, but swim heard somewhere or may have read it that if you are carrying something illegale-put it in a container that has a strong magnet and attach it to the underside of the car or truck, of course sans finger prints and it should be sealed very tight and water proof. And I know nothing about it... here's another tid bit, and this holds up in a court of law.... the manufactuer of the breathlizer test does not guarentee 100% accuracy!!! i got that from a prominet houston lawyer that was how he got his clients off on dui's.... so ....make sure your lawyer brings this up to the judge.

[tomazco]

This is helpful but can we have one with respects to Uk law as well, as Im not sure if our rights are the same.

[Paracelsus]

As far as I am aware, UK subjects have fewer rights due to anti-terrorism laws.

[Mona Lisa]

As far as I am aware, UK subjects have fewer rights due to anti-terrorism laws.
This is correct. I've been stopped and searched several times under the terrorism act and they'e explained to me that they can stop virtually anyone and that they don't have to have a reason since it can all go under the anti-terrorism laws. I suspect that they were actually practising on me more than anything else.

They were very polite towards me but made it quite clear that I had no rights to refuse.

I've also noticed drugs dogs in various stations, particularly Green Park tube. They are out to get drug users, I'm convinced of it.

[berloniana]

Sorry tomazo,
I live in the land of the used to be free "USA" , and know not of the laws of the UK-
a.

[x cynic x]

I thought the police were supposed to protect people, but it seems that they only try to make busts. How can you refuse to accept a search without sounding like you have something to hide? I do not think it is possible.

[Paracelsus]

Refusing a warrantless search is not probable cause for a search. Otherwise there would be no need for search warrants at all.

[~lostgurl~]

It is the same with the right to remain silent. If you don't answer they think you are hiding something from them and/or not co-operating. It's a lose-lose situation.

[Graduisic]

Graduisic:

I don't think you can blame capitalism for the drug war. Sweden and China have drug laws too. I think the blame rests squarely on puritanism and paternalism, and not just the American flavor.

ECL


Thanks for pointing out my slant. It was less about drug laws, and more about speeding tickets and subsequent searches that ensue along with them because of peoples' lack of knowledge of the law. Of course SWIM can only make comments about what he has seen first-person (third-person to this forum) so he is explaining his point of view on the American flavor. Capitalism isn't the blame for the drug war; it IS, however, why police officers are much more eager to put people behind bars these days. sorry, I clouded the subject by the rant.

[cannagirl]

Didn't read the whole thread just wanted to add swim's experience. A year ago swim was awoken at 2am by an obnoxious rapping on the front door followed by "POLICE OPEN UP". Went to the door, stepped outside and closed the door behind swim. 8 cops standing there. Cops said we have reason to believe you are cooking meth. Swim said what gave you that idea? Cops said they received an anonymous call about a perplexing setup on swims kitchen sink. It just so happened to be a bowl with a light over it full of baby angelfish. Cops said we just are going to come in and take a look. Swim said sorry, don't consent to warrant-less searches, do you have a warrant? Cops said no. Swim said, would be happy to bring the fish out to you. Cops said no. Swim would have let them in except swim had 3 plants in the back room and swims med license was expired at the time. Cops were annoyed but had nothing to go on but an anonymous tip and someone offering to show them exactly what the setup was.

Scariest experience of swims life. If swim had not read about warrant less searches the day before, swim would have been screwed and probly in jail right now.

Thank you for threads like this! They really help people out. Swim didn't know about refusing the cops until swim read something just like this on another forum.

[Alfa]

Summer's Here and the Time is Right for ... Getting Busted Going to the Festival (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60305)