Water from the gutter is better than the puddle

[Beltane]

Here's a post that may spark some interesting opinions. BTW, SWIM got the above qoute out a really good booklet from my local needle exchange.

I love this site, and I think one of the ways that the users could make it even better would be to consciously keep in mind that not everyone is 100% safe all the time. Most people here are drug users; sometimes that's the way it goes.

To advocate and eludicate on safety is helpful to many, but not at the cost of ignoring an initial question that deals with what the majority deam "impropoer."

Example: How do you sharpen points, with a matchbook or with a nailfile?

Typical answer: Always use new points.

Is this good advice? Yes. Does it address the question? No. So is it really all that helpful, i.e. do we think the person wouldn't use a fresh point if they could?

Also, when a knowledgeable boardmember feels the need to point out that a certain behavior is perhaps dangerous, some sort of scale might be nice. Mixing H with water from a home tap (vs. sterile water) is a danger factor of 2, water from a front yard hose might be a 4, water from the front/rear of a toilet may be 7/5 and then, of course, water from a running gutter is always better than water from a standing puddle.

SWIM likes to see people advocating the safest methods possible, but if a person doesn't have access to that method for whatever reason, then the safest thing for them is, if they are determined to do it, to get the best info we as board members have on the subject.

SWIM's asked several questions that were completely skipped over in favor of lectures on the proper use of gear and equipment. This actaully way helpful in the long run, but in the short run helped not at all, and I think that's where we as a group can further increase the benefit if this forum.

Thanks-

- Beltane

[Beltane]

OK, SWIM expected some rep dings from this one, but he stands by his position that this is _not_ bullshit.

If a person is going to use a needle 20 times in a row, even after it's pointed out that each point should only be used once, then either boot him from the board or give him whatever helpful info you have after you're finished preaching. _The Heroin User's Guide_, one of SWIM's favorite books on the subject, has a section on how to sharpen points. Now SWIM's read this and could share this knowledge with this politically incorrect unsafe heathen-type individual, or would it be better to just parrot into about Needle Exchanges?

Also, SWIM feels strongly that there should be some context given when someone says something is bad. Mixing crack with lemon juice is, by most accounts bad, but seriously with the number of health care professionals SWIM has heard otherwise from, he has to say that it's like a 3 or 4/10 bad, Whereas using the same poing 20 times is, in SWIM's opinion, more like 8 or 9 bad. So many people around here say stuff is bad or wrong without giving context that I imagine, like SWIM at times, they just tune it out. Now that's no good if something is really, really bad.

So rep dingers feel free to PM too for further discussion-

- Beltane

[old hippie 56]

Back when this swim was doing the iv deal, he always had some 800 grit sandpaper in his wallet to sharpen his points. We all know that we should use fresh supplies, but sometimes they are not available.

[Beltane]

Big-ups to you! My point exactaly. Some information that gets shared on this board might be "bad." Sometimes it's best to answer someone's question from a harm reduction standpoint _as it pertains to them._ Not everyone is 100% safe and clean. There's value added by recognizing where a person is at and then speaking to them first at that level, then mention the white lab coat stuff.

What kind of info is this: some people use match books to sharpen their points when they get dull. It's true info, and it's useful info for someone who would just use an even duller needle.

Sure it's cool to mention needle exchanges, and maybe someday this person will check one out, but to not share the matchbook info in the interim is like saying that this person's issue (since they don't use a NE and clean needle every time) is beneath me.

SWIM posts this riding the K train, please make allowances.

- Beltane

[adzket]

some sensible advice, as you say most users of any substance no how to safly and reduce harm to them selfs but are not always in a posistion too.

[radiometer]

I gave a postive rep rating for this thread.

A major part of harm reduction, a goal of this forum in my opinion, is to meet people where they are at. And I think it's possible to answer a question such as Beltane's hypothetical question regarding needle-sharpening in a manner which both directly answers the question as well as advises that fresh needles are by far the safest choice, in a respectful manner.

I used to have a signature that read "Buy a damned scale you idiot" or something, but I realized over time that such a message would not cause an idiot to buy a scale.

[Nagognog2]

That's when you can try reverse-psych: You're Too Fucking Stupid To Use A Good Scale EVEN If You Could Afford One!

[CrookedEye]

Swim doesn't have any problem with anyone doing any drugs they choose, even though he once had a long, rough addiction to opiates. He will always willing answer any questions he can, that can add to the safety/responsible use of any drug.. People, aren't going to not do something, especially when they are set on it, and just looking for an optimal way.. One can offer advice, but demonizing some drug or some person because of your prejudices is no better than what most governments are doing, IMO...

[Beltane]

Thank you CE; exactly my point. So SWIY has a history with opiates. So SWIY may have some useful info to offer should a particularly dicey question such as "so, how do I do a shot in the neck?" be asked.

Now this is a dicey question because the first thing most people would want to say, and rightly so, is that one should almost certainly NOT do this under any circumstances. And yet SWIM knows from reading and watching documentaries that some people do this. So there probably is an answer to the question that would help the person who asked the question do something very dangerous a bit more safely. SWIM just believes that BOTH pieces of info should be shared, however dicey, and that the person offering the 'questionable' info should not in any way be viewed as advocating such behavior. If the only advice given to the above hypothetical question is that such a thing should not be done, and the person goes on to do it without ANY harm reduction advice regarding the practice, then this site has failed, in SWIM's opinion, to make the world more safe for people who chose to use drugs.

- Beltane

[old hippie 56]

This swim seen that particular shot done before, the girl had to use a mirror and needed help pushing the plunger. Swim ain't saying one person can't do it alone but it looked like a difficult location.

[CrookedEye]

Swim has, unfortunately, shot in his jugular, his forehead, his groin area, his feet, hands, arms, chest, various veins in his neck, and toes.. He has a scar on his foot from a miss and infection, and has almost no visible veins, anymore.. Some have healed, but even his jugular doesn't bulge out like it used to, so people advising not to do it, isn't necessarily a bad thing.. Swim doesn't honestly know what good advice there is on shooting in ones jugular, besides, don't miss, and use fresh clean needles (proper injection technique, as anywhere on the body)..

[Beltane]

SWIM saw a guy do a jugular shot on an H documentary once, that's where the thought came from. This guy used a mirror and had little to no trouble. He seemed like he'd had plenty of practice tho.

- Beltane

[INodHardOhYeah]

Are you refering to "Black Tar Heroin"? Great movie, I'd reccomend it to everyone.

[VincentVan]

The veins on the neck are not different from those in other places , they can be used if they are well visible and look easy to catch.
Just remember that to hide the needle marks on the neck is going to be much harder; long sleeves are easier to live with than turtlenecks in hot summer days.
SWIM has never tried the groin area ( he finds the thought particularly unpleasant) but once he tried to shoot on a foot to see what it was like and he regretted it so much that he has never done it again. It was an extremely painful experience, probably because of the high concentration of nerve terminals in the area.
To shoot on the neck, without any help, did´nt give to SWIM any particular problem, beside a very evident mark that turned at first read, then indigo, deep purple ,yellow, pink, cremisi etc. changing hue every bloody day but not getting any smaller for what I remember as a very long time.
That´s why SWIM never did it again.
Thanks God where SWIM lives new needles are free and very easy to come by at any time of the day or the night and this alouded him to still have serviceable veins on his arms after more than 20 years of use.
This thread however made me kind of curious:
- What is the strangest place you have heard it has been used for injecting dope? And apart for the arms (from the shoulders to the wrists) what is the most used body part?-
Maybe we could start a pool.

VV.

[Imnmbr1]

How's about directly into a vein in a hardened penis?! Supposedly it was achieved but the recipient didn't report any better rush/feeling from doing it thataway.

[radiometer]

This thread started off well as a discussion of harm-reduction technique on internet discussion boards, but it has seriously gone off-topic. Please start a new thread in the appropriate place to discuss where to inject.

[VincentVan]

I don´t think it´s so off topic, after all a place to inject where it could be easier to hide the needle marks it is a form of damage reduction, and so is my entry on why I would suggest to avoid the feet.
Besides I totally agree with Beltane: the all concept of damage reduction is strictly dependent on the situations and the problems you are facing in a determined moment. If you lack the ideal instruments then you may start to wander what is the "less worst" substitute for them, but to talk about a damage reduction in general , it seems to me a difficult thing to do if you don´t want to keep repeating the usual banalities like:- use new needles, clean water , etc.-; Of course I would be happy to be proved wrong and to find myself reading some great ideas I never thought about.

As for Imnmbr idea of the hardened penis I find it hard to belive; at least I know that if I would try to puncture my thing with a needle he would immediatly make himself as little and inconspicous as possible.
For me the best place to hide marks is just under the shoulder, at the top of the bicep, because even the short sleeves of a T shirt would cover that spot.
Or at least I have´nt been able to find anywhere better.
I have heard of someone doing it under the tongue but I´m kind of skeptic; do you think it´s possible?

VV.

[old hippie 56]

Speaking of harm-reduction, shooting dope into your dick is a really bad idea. Too many things could go wrong, read about a guy in Houston that done this with coke, missed a little bit. Week later he was dead, after 6 days of severe pain due to gangrene setting up in his lower half.

[~lostgurl~]

Boil water to sterilize it if you dont have sterile bottle water, but make sure it has cooled down properly before injecting as warm/hot water can cause blood to coagulate. If you don't have access to correct filter, use 100% cotton products, cigarette filters (not from a tailer made) work well, sometimes when using cotton buds the cotton seperates and the needle can go right through it which defeats the purpose.

Last night SWIM went to needle exchange, which is a bit of a drive so SWIM buys as many needles as she can afford so that she doesn't have to make this drive too often. Anyway, last night SWIM needed to make this trip but was pretty broke - even though they are cheap, so SWIM printed out a couple of articles on addiction and effects of iv drug use, then printed 10 copies of UYB harm reduction method. SWIM then did a deal with the guy at the exchange and got 4X as many pics as SWIM could afford by giving him the printouts, and the guy thought it was great, he said the UYB's would go in a second so he was gonna make some more copies, and he got a real laugh at the whole deal cause usually if people can't afford them they just go and ask for free ones. SWIM made his night, he made SWIMS night and SWIM has lots of new/clean pics even though SWIM thought she couldn't afford them.
How often does SWIYorM manage to come up with money for drugs they want even though they are broke....... Addicts are clever, and with a bit of thinking.... where there is will, there is a way.
As much as everyone would love to be 100% safe when injecting drugs, that is just not possible, it is not even possible with other methods of drug use, there will always be risks and some peoples circumstances have more risk factors than others. SWIM thinks Beltane has made some very valid and important points in this thread and she thinks it's great that SWIMs can share experiences open and honestly, this is the real world and it is not black and white and advice is better than judgement. Great post Beltane!

[VincentVan]

Gangrene , blood poisoning and tissue necrosis can happen in any part of the body specially if you are weak and your immunosystem is debilitated for whatever reason.
Before diyng of it, however the symptoms of this kind of pathology (blackening of the body part or the veins, agonizing pain, high fever, etc) would drive any sane person to seek some form of medical help, and if the patient is treated in time, usually with an IV therapy of specific antibiotics, he would totally recover in a few days time.
Anyway ,though I would´nt suggest to anybody to try shooting in his penis, I have heard that not so long ago, before the advent of viagra and similar treatments, one of the most used remedies against impotence was the injection into the penis of a phial of papaverine, which is an opiate too.
The story of that guy in Huston is probably incomplete, maybe his immunosystem was already devastated by AIDS, or he died for some other reason altogether.
Where did you read it OldHippie?
VV.

[old hippie 56]

If swim remembers correctly, the Houston Post, 1988 or 89. Don't know why that story stuck with swim, but he hadn't forgot it.

[INodHardOhYeah]

If you don't have access to correct filter, use 100% cotton products, cigarette filters (not from a tailer made) work well

This is bad advice, while it is very common to use cigarette filters it is not safe. Particles from the cigarette filter can easily be drawn back into the rig and injected, possibly resulting in serious problems.

[VincentVan]

SWIM does not agree with INodHard...
He has always used cig´s filters.
I´m examining one right now and I really can´t see how it could brake and end up in a needle once it´s rolled up a little.
They are made of 100% cellulose.
The danger is with cotton because it tends to disintegrate in extremely thin threads and even worse with wool.
In any case use a filter! Almost any (clean) filter is better than nothing.

VV.

[~lostgurl~]

This is bad advice, while it is very common to use cigarette filters it is not safe. Particles from the cigarette filter can easily be drawn back into the rig and injected, possibly resulting in serious problems.

Some cigarette filters contain glass fibres, but there are 100% cotton filters that do not. In swims nine years of iv experience (which she has mainly used ciggie filters or cotton buds) she has never had a dirty hit. What are the "particles" you refer to and what are "serious problems resulting"?

A question for everybody - what does SWIY use to filter drugs? And what has SWIY used in past?

[Bajeda]

Some cigarette filters contain glass fibres, but there are 100% cotton filters that do not. In swims nine years of iv experience (which she has mainly used ciggie filters or cotton buds) she has never had a dirty hit. What are the "particles" you refer to and what are "serious problems resulting"?


Swim thinks the person was talking about the glass fibres that are in some cigarette filters (Marlboro lights is a big suspect). Thats the most logical explanation.


Does anyone know of a study or article of some kind that discusses the practice of putting glass fibres in cigarette filters?

[~lostgurl~]

this is an interesting article on cotton fever or risks involved using cotton to filter

http://www.heroinhelper.com/user/health/cotton_fever.shtml

Cotton Fever

Cotton fever is a risk that IV drug users face, but which they worry about far too much. I say this because although it is painful, it is not terribly dangerous--there are better things to worry about. The reason for all the interest seems to be that no one can get a straight answer about what it is.

Different Definitions

Just about every information source provides a slightly different cause for this ailment. The Whitehouse Drug Policy's Street Drug Glossary (http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/streetterms/ByAlpha.asp), for example, defines cotton fever as, "Critically high temperature associated with accidentally injecting cotton fibers into the blood stream." Other proposed causes include "dirt in Mexican heroin" and fiberglass in cigarette filters. The connection between almost all the explanations is that cotton fever is caused by some kind of particulate matter that is injected into the blood stream. This is not really true.

Symptoms

There are a lot of different unintended things that happen to IV drugs users: hitting arteries and nerves, abscesses, blood clots. Cotton fever has specific symptoms that differentiate it from other ailments: fever, chills, and shortness of breath. In Europe, cotton fever is commonly called "the shakes"--a reference to another common symptom of cotton fever. Those with this ailment often experience violent shaking or shivering.
These symptoms normally occur immediately following an injection, but there are reports of lags up to an hour in length.

Course

Under most circumstances, cotton fever is relatively benign. It is possible for it to turn into something more serious such as pneumonia; the user should watch for this, and seek medical attention if the fever does not go away. Normally however, the symptoms disappear after a couple of hours or less.

The Cause of Cotton Fever

Cotton plants are heavily colonized by a strain of bacteria known as E. Agglomerans. This bacterium causes mischief in the pulmonary system of the body which results in the symptoms of cotton fever. This was first noted in the early 1940s with farm workers who breathed in large quantities of unprocessed cotton.
Most injection drug users utilize small pieces of cotton to filter particulate matter from their drug solution before they inject. It is possible for this to introduce small amounts of E. Agglomerans into the solution. When it is administered intravenously, this small quantity of bacteria can be enough to cause cotton fever.
It is commonly believed that it is something about the solid state of the material (cotton or other) that causes the effects of the fever. This is not so; it is the bacteria found in the cotton. It is certainly true, however, that injecting a cotton fiber which will be broken down in the blood stream is a good way to deliver large amounts of the bacteria into the blood stream.

Avoiding Cotton Fever

It is impossible to completely avoid cotton fever except by not using cotton to filter drug solutions. This should not be used as an excuse to avoid filtering your solution--or for using a poor substitute. In most cases, cotton is the best thing to use for this purpose. Cotton fever is a fairly minor ailment, whereas the particulate matter filtered by the cotton can be deadly.
To minimize the risk of cotton fever, boil the cotton before it is used for filtration. This should kill the bacteria that cause this ailment. But this is no guarantee. Bacteria can be hard to kill.
In addition to boiling your cotton, make sure that you do not re-use your cotton. There are many reasons (http://www.heroinhelper.com/user/health/more_on_abscesses.shtml#reuse_cotton) to avoid this practice, and only one is to avoid cotton fever. Old cottons break down, making it more likely that a fiber will be drawn into your syringe.
The main thing to remember about cotton fever is that under most circumstances, it is not very harmful. So take what precautions you can, and learn to live with the remaining risk.

Dealing with Cotton Fever

If the fever persists, it should be treated with antibiotics. But this is rarely necessary. In most instances it is best to simply let the fever run its course. You can almost assure that cotton fever will have a minor effect on your body by keeping yourself in shape. Make sure that you eat regularly, get a little exercise, and take vitamins. This will also help you fight off any other ailments resulting from your drug use.

[old hippie 56]

Swim had a instance of cotton fever back when he was chasing that damn old needle. Thought it was the flu at first, few advil and some much needed rest done the trick. Went to using q-tips instead of filters from cigarettes.
Like Laura76 says, it ain't all that bad. For the newbies to IV use, just keep everything really clean.

[asplinteredfawn]

SWIM lives in Detroit.

He was spending 210-300$ a day on smack. He was also living on the streets for a substantial amount of time. His best source for injection water was fresh fallen snow, off the ledges or tops of cars. Any comments?

I mean SWIMs done some gross down and out stuff. Lucky, hes been off the H train about a year now.

Some people just don't get that we aren't all from bourgeoisie/middle class families, and cannot always afford to spend the extra 1.75$ for water 2.63$ for some BDs or a fresh pack of filters.

They don't even have needle exchanges around here, nor do pharmacy's sell sterile water, and some give you a hard time about buying new works!

Obviously, with SWIMs years under the belt, he has his sources and acquaintances; who are repeat vendors/pharmacists; these ones are the people who know who and what you are and what you will do with what you buy. They want you to be safe, while others force SWIM to stoop pretty low.

Injecting using soda pop, filtering with lint, playing " find a complete rig " out of 17 or so random plungers, spikes, caps, and barrels with all of the measurements having been rubbed off long ago.

Any true junkist, has been in these situations. If you haven't, it's all a matter of time, or you're just lucky, and wealthy from birth.

You can always change the size of your syringe; but never your place in society.

[Aminator]

" These symptoms normally occur immediately following an injection..."

Which shows that 'the shakes' are NOT caused by those bacteria, hence have nothing to do with cotton fever (which DOES exist and could theoretically be transferred this way).

No way are the bacteria going to multiply thousandfold within seconds. Any bacteria-caused infect needs time to show symptoms, especially if a small number enters the body.
Plus, Cotton for hygiene products is processed sterile. Ciggie filters are not even cotton, IIRC they are cellulose acetate, a (half)synthetic fiber spun from solution.

'The shakes' are caused by the particulate matter itself. The only cases I witnessed myself occurred when either no filter was used, or twice with water that had collected dust in shallow containers over 1-2 days (one case when trying to evaporate most of the liquid from methadone solution to allow for a smaller rig, then not foiltering - before they added the syrup that is, good old times).

[infekt]

SWIM lives in Detroit.

He was spending 210-300$ a day on smack. He was also living on the streets for a substantial amount of time. His best source for injection water was fresh fallen snow, off the ledges or tops of cars. Any comments?

I mean SWIMs done some gross down and out stuff. Lucky, hes been off the H train about a year now.

Some people just don't get that we aren't all from bourgeoisie/middle class families, and cannot always afford to spend the extra 1.75$ for water 2.63$ for some BDs or a fresh pack of filters.

They don't even have needle exchanges around here, nor do pharmacy's sell sterile water, and some give you a hard time about buying new works!

Obviously, with SWIMs years under the belt, he has his sources and acquaintances; who are repeat vendors/pharmacists; these ones are the people who know who and what you are and what you will do with what you buy. They want you to be safe, while others force SWIM to stoop pretty low.

Injecting using soda pop, filtering with lint, playing " find a complete rig " out of 17 or so random plungers, spikes, caps, and barrels with all of the measurements having been rubbed off long ago.

Any true junkist, has been in these situations. If you haven't, it's all a matter of time, or you're just lucky, and wealthy from birth.

You can always change the size of your syringe; but never your place in society.



exactly!

It kind of reminds me how sometimes someone on this site wants to know how to potentiate certain drugs. And there is always some useless reply "buy more or use more of that drug".

asplinteredfawn swim feels you completely. swim was also a junk addict (and also from detroit). IF people knew this lifestyle then such replies "buy new or clean etc" and the like would be viewed as a waste of time.

[Aminator]

OK a tip if clean water is nowhere to find, for whatever reason (when this method was chosen, it was usually in a train toilet, where the water tanks are either empty of water or full of bacteria or both, with a warning label "DO NOT DRINK"):

Everybody has clean (even sterile) water on the person where ever he/she goes, they just don't consider it. It's only a zipper away. It will contain salt, urea and traced of the last shot, but it's usable. Using 'middle-stream' i.e. flushing through first, and not taking the last drop, this is even injected as a therapy, though it's more common to drink it.

And yes this has been tested, though only on things that dissolve without boiling (the white stuff).

[Handle]

Just a quick warning, NEVER EVER EVER inject anything EVER into any part of your groin. Some veins down there drain into the fossa ovalis, and if you clog up that with shit fillers or get a germ, you can lose both your legs and your fucking genitals to gangrene. Never do it.

Horrible to say, but it is even more dangerous than neck shots [which also with unskilled shots are at great risk of clipping against the carotid if you're not careful, and that can cause blood pressure spikes and cardiac arrest]

Anyway, about sharpening/reusing fits. The New SOuth Wales prison system is starting to get wise to this, they don't wanna spend half their budget on hep C treatment for everyone, so they give sort of "don't ask/don't tell" type vibes to everyone, with advice about how the industrial disinfectant they use in the prisons can be used to sterilise fits, and how matchbooks can be used to sharpen tips [because in AUs, most needles are fixed tip, not the Trainspotting type]

they have a sort of sliding scale
1. Don't use drugs
2. If you do, don't IV
3. If you do, don't re-use
4. If you do, don't share
5. If you do, clean it, sharpen, disinfect 3 times with bleach/antiseptic

They are very sincere in their wish and advice to people not to do, well, especially nothing from 3 onwards because it is so horrific, but they know it's happening, they are too coy about actually handing out spikes in a prison, so they try to keep damage to a minimum. I don't envy them in their job of managing this issue.

Handle added 13 Minutes and 6 Seconds later...

asplinteredfawn:
"Any true junkist, has been in these situations. If you haven't, it's all a matter of time, or you're just lucky, and wealthy from birth.

You can always change the size of your syringe; but never your place in society"

Sad but true, and I say that as one of the ones who had it easy, I never had to go through that rough stuff like the really poor ones. Yes, class divides continue on the wrong side of the tracks as well.

There's a reference to that in Basketball Diaries, he talks about the "Weekenders" who always have Mommy's place in vermont to skip off to when things get rough.
It's just not the same. And it's not a comp to be the hardest core, what I'm saying is, those people [and I'm one of them] all have some sort of safety net, backround that will catch them and look after them, but the ones who really have it rough must face life alone, and it can be a pretty cold, hard world for them.

I'm talking about disease, hunger, homelessness. The ones who have it easy can dust themselves off and still get up in the world later on, but what of the street type with a hoarse voice and scarry trackmarks and none of the good school manners that help hide an old habit. They talk about rehabilitation, but the ones who really had it rough face lifelong exclusion, they push back every attempt at living straight, push such people right back into the street very quickly.
And they get way longer sentecnes, much more often, and often the first time round. Courts are not so much overtly harder on them in what they say, but just totally indifferent in handing out years in jail "like candy" as Henry Hill would say, because they see someone with no back up and just don't care about them. I have seen it all happen.