View Full Version : What does the USA/Patriot act really mean
davidBuster23
17-06-2004, 17:47
Among other disturbing aspects of the USA/Patriot Act are broad new powers of search and seizure. Many of the rights upon which Americans relied before September of 2001 have now been compromised, leaving U.S. citizens with little protection for their privacy. Anyone concerned about keeping their thoughts and activities from prying eyes should have a basic understanding of the three major surveillance implications listed below.
1. Personal Records
The provisions of the Patriot Act now enable the FBI to force a third party such as a library, bank, bookstore, doctor, or internet service provider to hand over a client’s/customer’s records. The government need not show probable cause in order to access records, but needs only to state that these activities are based on an ongoing investigation. Surveillance orders can be based on open and legal activities such as the books a person reads or the websites they visit. What’s more, a third party that has been ordered to hand over records is prohibited from informing the person whose records were taken that the search was conducted. A victim has no way of challenging illegitimate searches!
So if the FBI suspects that you have some vague terrorism connection (go to the drugs-forum site = involved with drug trade = buy a product that has been in some way trafficked or touched by the Taliban or FARC = support terrorism…), they can subpoena any of your personal records and you’ll never know – that is until you are hauled in.
2. Secret Searches
Used to be, the FBI would knock on your door while you’re at home and present you with a warrant. At that point, you’d call your lawyer who’d come on over and have a chance to tell them that their warrant is invalid (they got the wrong address, they’re looking through your sock drawer when they say you stole a car, the paperwork is out of order, etc. etc.) Now, they can sneak into your home, collect any evidence they want, and not tell you about it for an indefinite period of time. Warrants list specific areas that are allowed to be searched, but when the target of the search is not allowed or able to contest the scope of the search, the government can exceed their bounds and collect anything they want. To add insult to injury, this new power applies to all investigations; there need not be any line drawn between searching your property and terrorism.
3. Wiretaps
Just as with physical searches, the FBI can now gain permission to monitor your communications (both its content and its origin and recipient) without showing probable cause. If they suspect that you are engaged in something that they don’t like, and have not a shred of evidence, they can slap a tap on your phone and install their Carnivore computer monitoring package at your ISP to see what you’re up to. Basically this means that anything you do over the phone or internet is fair game.
Civil liberties arguments aside (hey, what about the fourth amendment?!), this is all very dangerous stuff. Many of the rights that once protected us are simply no longer valid. The bottom line is that one must now be much more careful in any dealings or activities that he/she would like to keep private. Be smart, keep out of trouble.
Thegreatone
17-06-2004, 18:52
f**k the patriot act and the ones who enacted it.
Its extremely important for everyone to send some type of protest in regards to the Patriot Act even if you hate your government, many in Congress are not comfortable with it becauseit truely voids the 2nd Amendmnet right altogether and once that is gone then we are no longer a free United State and trust me the next major thrust will be total gun control. The FBI are as crooked as any Gestapo~like agency and have been for years and the Patriot Act is as serious as it gets for a free America to continue. Even "iF" it was concieved with good intention if it is allowed to succeed it will be abused without any type of restraint. ....mks
davidBuster23
21-06-2004, 15:16
and HAS been abused without restraint!
carloshidalgo61
25-08-2006, 07:43
It was passed by US Congressional vote, without even being read first. What an unbelievable accomplishment by our current administration, to get its own constitution virtually stripped of all its power pertaining to one's rights, by pushing through a bill which was not even allowed to be read and examined. Unbelievable. I find reading the allegations against the US and UK governments enthralling, at the sites of infowars.com, prisonplanet.com, and rense.com. Their GCS streaming radio shows are very enjoyable.
old hippie 56
25-08-2006, 18:04
Thank goodness that the current administration is a lame duck, and the Bush puppets are being kicked to the curb from the senate. Not that the other politicans are any better.
Nature Boy
25-08-2006, 18:08
The act's power and likelihood of use against the average citizen is completely blown out of proportion IMO. It's just another excuse for the far left to bitch about it and compare it to Hitler's Enabling Act and ultimately make idiots of themselves again further making Bush look good.
old hippie 56
25-08-2006, 21:39
But, it is making the average citizen think twice before doing something that may draw attention to them.
Nature Boy
25-08-2006, 21:57
Which in their eyes is a good thing. The act is mainly related to counter-terrorism though. And I don't see why people need to fear government intrusion that much, it just allows you to be more vigilant if anything. The US doesn't have half as many intrusion rights as they do in the UK and the situation isn't exactly dire there either. It actually ended up saving a lot of asses a few weeks back. The sad thing about US politics is that it's very much a two-way street. If the Republicans come up with a policy that may have doubtful elements to it but in practice will actually be for the betterment of the country, the left will shit all over it more needlessly than required for the sake of making the opposition look bad. It's a very bad way of looking at things. It makes it a petty battle of one-upmanship rather than practical governing.
allyourbase
26-08-2006, 00:21
so far the patriot act has only been used against individuals. the "terrorists" still seem to get the full benefit of our judicial system whereas small time offenders are being shoved through the courts into the jails with the use of the patriot act. any government who gives up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves niether and will have none.
tloving598
28-08-2006, 09:03
I completely agree with allyourbase, Benjamin Franklin strongly stated "those who would sacrifice liberty for a little temporary saftey deserve niether." America was born of insecurity. If we were so worried about our own little lives then we never would have declared independence and fought and almost impossible war. I have absolutely no respect for those who believe that security outweighs freedom. In the world of today it is especially important to focus on our freedoms and move forward as americans un-afraid of a little adversity, as opposed to signing our rights over to the government and multiplying their power exponentially. I am severely disappointed that it passed, and that people continue to buy into it. Besides if anybody is curious - look at "Loose Change" it can be found under google video.
If Texas falls back to Mexico then Coca-Cola will be made with real sugar again! Weeee!
Nature Boy
28-08-2006, 18:06
I completely agree with allyourbase, Benjamin Franklin strongly stated "those who would sacrifice liberty for a little temporary saftey deserve niether." America was born of insecurity. If we were so worried about our own little lives then we never would have declared independence and fought and almost impossible war. I have absolutely no respect for those who believe that security outweighs freedom. In the world of today it is especially important to focus on our freedoms and move forward as americans un-afraid of a little adversity, as opposed to signing our rights over to the government and multiplying their power exponentially. I am severely disappointed that it passed, and that people continue to buy into it. Besides if anybody is curious - look at "Loose Change" it can be found under google video.
America wasn't born as a vulnerable super power either though was it? Again, I'll stress that the act does virtually nothing to change the life of the average schmo on the street. There's really no need to be so worked up about it.
Nagognog2
28-08-2006, 18:23
Bullshit. You are talking about the very foundations upon which this nation rests. Removing same means allowing the disintegration of the nation. The last time that was tried, we had one fuck of a bloody civil war.
Nature Boy
28-08-2006, 18:30
Shit changes the whole time without a song and dance made about it. I would hardly compare some feds tapping into some Arab-American's phoneline to be the same as the abolition of slavery. The very foundations of that Declaration of Independence was the hemp sheet that it was written on and we all know what happened to that didn't we? There are much better ways to criticise the Bush administration if one is that way inclined (personally US politics is very-much like the South Park giant douche vs. turd sandwich dilemma if you ask me). Why bitch about something that effects barely anyone when there are much better things to argue for?
Anyway, these are just some very loose opinions of mine. I don't think people should be obsessive over legislation that was laid down centuries ago. Such an attitude can be as damaging as it can be wholesome. It's better to move with the times. If we were all stuck to obeying ancient doctrines, the world would still be flat and the Enlightenment would have never happened. Though I admit I should really be slapping myself in the face to be drawing any comparisons between the Patriot Act and the Enlightenment. I'll get me coat...
America is falling. The patriot act is a way for those with billions invested in whatever "wigits" they have to move along the dirty work and get the hell out of Dodge.
Among other disturbing aspects of the USA/Patriot Act are broad new powers of search and seizure. Many of the rights upon which Americans relied before September of 2001 have now been compromised, leaving U.S. citizens with little protection for their privacy. Anyone concerned about keeping their thoughts and activities from prying eyes should have a basic understanding of the three major surveillance implications listed below.
1. Personal Records
The provisions of the Patriot Act now enable the FBI to force a third party such as a library, bank, bookstore, doctor, or internet service provider to hand over a client’s/customer’s records. The government need not show probable cause in order to access records, but needs only to state that these activities are based on an ongoing investigation. Surveillance orders can be based on open and legal activities such as the books a person reads or the websites they visit. What’s more, a third party that has been ordered to hand over records is prohibited from informing the person whose records were taken that the search was conducted. A victim has no way of challenging illegitimate searches!
So if the FBI suspects that you have some vague terrorism connection (go to the drugs-forum site = involved with drug trade = buy a product that has been in some way trafficked or touched by the Taliban or FARC = support terrorism…), they can subpoena any of your personal records and you’ll never know – that is until you are hauled in.
Mhm, think of the entirety of the country as high school, with high school laws. No longer is it probable cause, but resonable suspicion. Which by law, takes far far less amounts of time to arrest someone with. Resonable suspicion can amount from mere background, past activities, relationships with other people, and anything even slightly suspicious to the government's eye.
Remember back in high school, where the law stated that the administrators can act as your legal guardians between the hours of the bell? Well the whole government is our legal guardian now, looking into our private lives, our private discussions, our porno mags (before you laugh, seriously, the government has announced a War on Porn, go here for more info-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/19/AR2005091901570_pf.html or
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050923-5346.html
for more info on that)
Comparing and contrasting our law and it's relationship with society to High School is not as silly as it sounds, given our current predicament.
Hopefully the American people will wake up soon,
Peace out.
Female
It's better to move with the times. If we were all stuck to obeying ancient doctrines, the world would still be flat and the Enlightenment would have never happened. Agreed man, agreed, but unfortunately we are still stuck in a world that obeys ancient doctrines. For some reasons humans find works that were written in a very "he said, she said" fashion to be the ultimatum a lot of the times. Look how many bloody wars have been based on ancient doctrines, ancient scriptures.
SWIM wishes humans would just move on.
I'm outraged by the fact that the U.S. "government" has allowed this bill to become a law as much as the next guy, but what really pisses me of isn't the invasion of homes nor the desecration of civil liberties but the fact that Bob Dylan hasn't written a song about it. What's wrong with the world!
tloving598
29-08-2006, 00:42
Ok Nature boy, it doesn't f ing matter if the act does or does not affect most of our lives. It is the principle of the matter. Back when America still had its dignity, it was a nation of freedom in the face of adversity, it was not a nation full of a bunch of pussies so afraid of death that they would rather sign over the very principles on which this great nation was built than accept a little danger. BTW watch Loose Change on google video, it is extremely intriguing. Anyways, America is a land of the Free not a land of pussies who will abort liberty the first damn chance they get. I am so disappionted with some people of today, they spout words like patriot but have forgotten what America truly is. I chose Freedom over Safety.
Cheers
Ok Nature boy, it doesn't f ing matter if the act does or does not affect most of our lives. It is the principle of the matter. Back when America still had its dignity, it was a nation of freedom in the face of adversity, it was not a nation full of a bunch of pussies so afraid of death that they would rather sign over the very principles on which this great nation was built than accept a little danger. BTW watch Loose Change on google video, it is extremely intriguing. Anyways, America is a land of the Free not a land of pussies who will abort liberty the first damn chance they get. I am so disappionted with some people of today, they spout words like patriot but have forgotten what America truly is. I chose Freedom over Safety.
Cheers
Okay, SWIFemale thinks us Swimmers are forgetting the very underlying point of the principles of libery and freedom that we're preaching about.
Nature Boy has every right to say what he believes is true and what he believes isn't. He even said "his opinion"..
That's what's great about the foundation of this country(SWIM's country at least), freedom of speech, even if the government is trying to squelch that. We must remember this and try to practice the art of respecting someone else's opinion and not flaming it in light of our "better" opinion. That's what is all is, opinion. SWIFemale may not agree with all of SWINature Boy's comments, or SWIY's comments for that matter, but SWIFemale will respect and be happy that SWIY can say those opinion in contradiction to or in agreeance of her own opinion. Because that, in essence my friends, is awesome.
So try to remember to respect everyone's opinion and set an example of tolerance for future generations to learn from, because if there is no one to set that standard, then the future as Orwell sees it will become more of a reality than it already is.
Peace and respect,
Female
tloving598
29-08-2006, 05:41
Very, very trueSWIFemale. SWIM is sorry he was so forward to you SWINatureboy. I think Swim just gets a little excited on such topics. SWIM's hypocracy is embarrasing. Swim does certainly respect SWInatureboy's opinion, SWIM is just so incredibly angry at the unfoldments of today and has some trouble dealing with these issues. SWIM believes not in tolerance, rather he believes in acceptance. Thank you for your addition SWIfemale. Sorry for the anger
Nature Boy
29-08-2006, 05:57
No need to apologise. You didn't flame me directly. Everyone's entitled to their say.
Awesome, truly awesome. SWIM is very glad that SWIY sees it that way, and SWIM understands how easy it is to become quite heated when discussing current events!
Sklander
31-08-2006, 01:52
Why bitch about something that effects barely anyone when there are much better things to argue for?
Because it infringes on the very foundations that our great (if you can call it that anymore) nation was built on. To give the total power to the federal government through unwarrantted searches and seizures, phone tapping, and intrustions into ones home is just lunacy. The essence that this country was built on took a major blow when the Patriot Act was installed.
Nagognog2
31-08-2006, 02:09
"The destruction of an evil system is an act of love." - Abbie Hoffman
tloving598
05-09-2006, 18:44
Wow, i definately agree with that N-man. But you see the real question is how to effect such change on such a deeply embedded and reinforced infrastructure? Especially, how to do it with peace and little death. It certainly is possible, this i know, but how does a group of people overthrow said system?
Nagognog2
05-09-2006, 19:45
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." - Abbie Hoffman
"Democracy is like a shiny new car. If you leave it unattended, some asshole will steal it from you." - Nagognog2
Nature Boy
05-09-2006, 20:10
Because it infringes on the very foundations that our great (if you can call it that anymore) nation was built on. To give the total power to the federal government through unwarrantted searches and seizures, phone tapping, and intrustions into ones home is just lunacy. The essence that this country was built on took a major blow when the Patriot Act was installed.
How very noble a thought but the world's very different today than it was back when the US was formed. Like I said, the US wasn't a superpower back then and it didn't have suicide pilots flying into buildings and twisted Islamic fundamentalists plotting to take thousands of people down. It's very hard to argue against that. I try not to be too biased in either direction but privacy in the US is still a lot more prevalent than in other coalition countries. That's fact, not assumption.
Nagognog2
05-09-2006, 20:29
A fact? More like an assumption.
Under the "Patriot Act" your house and all your records can be seized assuming someone somewhere thinks MAYBE you MIGHT be doing something to aid terrorists. But if they find nothing to support said assumption - anything they find is legal evidence to charge you with.
I say you are a terrorist -maybe-suspect. I kick in your door. I find nothing but a bag of pot. You go to jail for the pot. Does that sit well with you? Eh?
Nature Boy
05-09-2006, 20:35
The British can do the exact same thing and it appears as though they have more power to act upon it more rapidly and more effectively, perhaps their motives may differ however. It was their invasion rights that allowed them to catch the High Wycombe terrorists so efficiently.
Sklander
07-09-2006, 06:27
The Patriot Act would be OK if it wasn't abused.
Like SWINag said, If someone somewhere says something then you can go down for it. SWIM isn't feeling that.
SWIM doesn't think that the Patriot Act has helped combat terror any better than it would have been combatted if the Patriot Act didn't exist. The point is that the Patriot Act conveniently allows the United States Government to spy on its citizen for essentially no reason.
Thomas Jefferson said that it would be better to see ten guilty men go free than to see one innocent man be proven guilty. It seems like the United States Government is looking for an excuse to prove anyone they want guilty.
Each Hit
07-09-2006, 17:30
not to mention the secret cia prison bush admitted having. note that during the time this prison was in operation, the cia was exempt from the geneva convention (or at least acted in violation of it). detainees in iraq were taken out of the country by the cia to be interrogated. they also admitted to using 'alternative' interrogation techniques on the 14 individuals detained in this way.
sounds almost like '1984' in a way. i am actually afraid of the government. i wish more people felt this way, because 200 years ago, something like this would have led to a revolt.
Sklander
08-09-2006, 05:02
Very 1984 esque. The American people have been sculpted into believing certain things and over a long time of doing this its finally at a point where the Government can do basically anything.
Its not a good time to live in America.
People always tell me, "Well, aren't you afraid of terror... What will we do about terrorists?" And I always say, "maybe we shouldn't give them a reason to act in such drastic ways..."
Just a joke...
Nagognog2
08-09-2006, 05:17
Yup. It's a joke all right. But it's a sad reflection also. Right now the power in Washington is using FEAR as their method to scare people into silence: "You aren't afraid of terrorists? YOU hate America!!"
That's the game-plan. Keep talking to your friends about this. What REALLY matters? Osama swimming up their sewer-pipe with a bomb in his teeth? Or their kids being taken to Guantanomo for "Failure To Salute?"
Anyone want to rent a "Secret-CIA-Prison" as a Honeymoon-Retreat?
Barelled01
08-09-2006, 10:00
color-coded terror alterts keep us in fear
El Calico Loco
09-09-2006, 06:58
If you grew up in a fascist state, would you know it?
Not as simple as it sounds. Americans pride themselves on being the greatest, freest, best-est nation in the whole wide world. Yet, I've grown up in a place where individuals can be clapped in irons for consuming plants, local governments take peoples' homes via eminent domain and sell the land to big-box stores for pennies on the dollar, courts seize the assets of suspects before they're even tried (much less convicted), and over fifty percent of my (meager) income goes toward supporting these very policies.
I'm not sure Americans know what "free" means. It's more than just the ability to vote (ie, the freedom to choose between two masters, both of them lousy).
As for the Unpatriot Act...one of its fiercest opponents was a Republican from Texas. Not all Texans love Dubya. Me, I want less Bush and more Paine.
ECL
(Heh...that could be a slogan for masochistic gay men)
naturespirals
20-09-2006, 06:50
SWIMs internet service provider has a great company policy.
Well first let swim state that there is an FBI taskforce for Media Piracy in the city SWIM resides in. But if the FBI requests records for you, the company notifies you, then makes the FBI wait 30 days before handing them over.
Giving ample time to destroy pirated files, scramble hard-drives, etc.
SWIM's old roomate had this happen and had over 1000 hours of pirated media, as well as lots of online purchases, drug research that would've caused for legal concern. None of which discovered by the police.
Paracelsus
21-09-2006, 18:36
many terrorist attacks were used by the US government to create unconstitutional anti-terrorism laws. A couple of months before the Oklahoma city bombing back in 95 the white house elaborated some antiterror laws but they couldnt get the congress to vote them... so a couple of days after the bombing the congress voted them immediately. conspiracy theorists believe that the US government was at least partially responsible for the bombing...
same happened with 9/11 and the patriot and homeland security act.
so these days this laws help the current government turn the US into a police state, gradually. Sad.